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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
#8282107 - 04/14/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't see any "real" changes in the world. Humans, emotionally have not changed from the dawn of history IMO. I care not if it burns. That is nothing to a citizen of the Tao.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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backfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
#8282108 - 04/14/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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won·der (wndr) n. 1. a. One that arouses awe, astonishment, surprise, or admiration; a marvel: "The decision of one age or country is a wonder to another" John Stuart Mill. b. The emotion aroused by something awe-inspiring, astounding, or marvelous: gazed with wonder at the northern lights. 2. An event inexplicable by the laws of nature; a miracle. 3. A feeling of puzzlement or doubt. 4. often Wonder A monumental human creation regarded with awe, especially one of seven monuments of the ancient world that appeared on various lists of late antiquity. v. won·dered, won·der·ing, won·ders v.intr. 1. a. To have a feeling of awe or admiration; marvel: "She wondered at all the things civilization can teach a woman to endure" Frances Newman. b. To have a feeling of surprise. 2. To be filled with curiosity or doubt. v.tr. To feel curiosity or be in doubt about: wondered what happened. adj. 1. a. Arousing awe or admiration. b. Wonderful. 2. Far superior to anything formerly recognized or foreseen. Idiom: for a wonder As a cause for surprise; surprisingly. [Middle English, from Old English wundor.] wonder·er n. Synonyms: wonder, marvel, miracle, phenomenon, prodigy, sensation These nouns denote one that evokes amazement or admiration: saw the wonders of Paris; a marvel of modern technology; a miracle of culinary art; a phenomenon of medical science; a musical prodigy; the theatrical sensation of the season.
Ice: 'There is plenty of evidence of this if you do some research and check your history.'
Ice: 'you don't know wtf you are talking about'
Right.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Quote:
Miracle: An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.
Not really the same as "wonder."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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BFD. A miracle is something that is impossible. Just because you believe in faeries doesn't make them real. My quote stands and also my response to you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dblaney
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
#8282162 - 04/14/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I don't see any "real" changes in the world. Humans, emotionally have not changed from the dawn of history IMO. I care not if it burns. That is nothing to a citizen of the Tao.
Whether or not you do or don't see any real changes in the world is not so important.
A true citizen of the Tao realizes their inter-connection with everything. They see that they are inseparable from everything else. They see their intimate part in the web of life. When the world is burning, they too are burning. It's one thing to not be attached to this burning. But if you don't care that the world is burning, then you are not a true citizen of the Tao.
That's a heavy claim, but I mean it with all sincerity. What is the Tao if not the wisdom to see our inter-connection and our non-duality and the compassion to work for the benefit and well-being of everyone?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Icelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
#8282166 - 04/14/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wrong, All things come and go in Ultimate Tao, the sage holds to nothing at all. You do not understand the Tao IMO. You are a politico and have attachments to this and that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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backfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
#8282189 - 04/14/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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A miracle, derived from the old Latin word miraculum meaning "something wonderful"...
-wiki
Yah. I see. Very different.
'A miracle is something that is impossible.'
In Spinoza's Theologico-Political Treatise he talks about miracles as those events of whose causes we are ignorant. Nor does he suggest we should just treat them as having no cause or of having an cause immediately available. Rather the miracle is for combating the ignorance it entails, it becomes a political project.
-wiki
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Icelander
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so anything that anyone calls a miracle is just something we don't know about This belongs in that other forum.
My post taken in context of what I was saying should have never even warranted this discussion.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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backfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
#8282214 - 04/14/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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'so anything that anyone calls a miracle is just something we don't know about...'
Yet. Learn it, Richard.
Be it solely an illusion of mind or a latent function of the universe.
Miracles happen. To seek out an explanation is Do. Oh but you know that because you are master of the Tao.
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Epigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
#8282284 - 04/14/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I don't see any "real" changes in the world. Humans, emotionally have not changed from the dawn of history IMO.
Nice! Do you act as a consultant to any of these people?
Notable human evolution researchers
James Burnett, Lord Monboddo, a British judge most famous today as a founder of modern comparative historical linguistics Charles Darwin, a British naturalist who documented considerable evidence that species originate through evolutionary change Richard Dawkins, a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist who has promoted a gene-centered view of evolution J. B. S. Haldane, a British geneticist and evolutionary biologist William D. Hamilton, a British Evolutionary Biologist who expounded a rigorous genetic basis for kin selection, and on the evolution of HIV and other human diseases. Sir Alister Hardy, a British zoologist, who first hypothesised the aquatic ape theory of human evolution Henry McHenry, an American anthropologist who specializes in studies of human evolution, the origins of bipedality, and paleoanthropology Louis Leakey, an African archaeologist and naturalist whose work was important in establishing human evolutionary development in Africa Richard Leakey, an African paleontologist and archaeologist, son of Louis Leakey Svante Pääbo, a Swedish biologist specializing in evolutionary genetics Jeffrey H. Schwartz, an American physical anthropologist and professor of biological anthropology Erik Trinkaus, a prominent American paleoanthropologist and expert on Neanderthal biology and human evolution Milford H. Wolpoff, an American paleoanthropologist who is the leading proponent of the multiregional evolution hypothesis
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dblaney
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
#8282292 - 04/14/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Wrong, All things come and go in Ultimate Tao, the sage holds to nothing at all. You do not understand the Tao IMO. You are a politico and have attachments to this and that.
It's certainly true that nothing lasts. Not holding or clinging to anything DOES NOT mean that you just sit there and stare blankly at the world as it burns. Not clinging does not imply a fatalistic passivity.
Now then, you chose to judge me and make use of ad hominems. How about you actually respond to what I said? I was talking about inter-dependence and inter-connectedness, and how it is crucial to realize them - to make them real - in our daily lives and in our world.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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figmentfragment
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
#8282665 - 04/14/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am surprised that I got any sort of answer to this question, which I will stress again, is completely hypothetical.
But what I am really curious about, is the actual ideas of how things should/could work.
Are we talking about, alternative types of government, yet with similar systems we observe today, something vastly different? NO government even?
what do you think? Because I rarely hear any talk of what people want, just what they don't want.
I myself, don't really know, and I find that fact to be disconcerting to say the least. So I seek the opinions of others to test the waters.
-------------------- Goodbye Shroomery.
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daytripper23
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
#8282694 - 04/14/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Working to change things in yourself is crucial. But you are inseparable from society and mankind as a whole. If you truly work to transform yourself, then you will inevitably work to transform the world.
These lines between inner and outer are problematic.
The way I see it, the clear intentions of our founding fathers were to recognize this. Maybe if the population stopped taking unthinking pride in liberty and freedom, and learned to just understand these concepts, our politics could be rationally reflect these ideals. From my understanding the basic original intention was to create a government that serves the each individual, thereby and only thereby serving the whole. Each individual has rights, which protect his aesthetic freedom.
With this freedom comes personal responsibility. A person is not protected by the government from say the addictions of drugs or gambling, but he has full freedom to indulge in these activities if he wants to, as long as he does not hurt anyone else. The government has no authority concerning the intrinsic well being of the individual. The governments only purpose is to oversee the external relations between individuals, which they have full authority in any circumstance to do so.
Now there would be some tricky circumstances, but they would not be so tricky if the rationalizations for law were based on a thorough comprehension of subject and object.
My ideal government would be isolationist, in many ways
-------------------- Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch!
Edited by daytripper23 (04/14/08 03:35 PM)
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Epigallo
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I actually think no government could work. You can see degrees of difference in the power of a government across countries, to preposterously strong governments such as North Korea's, to less controlling like Denmark's. A government doesn't produce any wealth for the nation or any artifacts that enhance the quality of our lives.
Every other species survives by the sole governance of natural laws - I bet we could too.
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Icelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
#8282732 - 04/14/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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culture is our natural law, everything comes from nature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: daytripper23]
#8282787 - 04/14/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said: The governments only purpose is to oversee the external relations between individuals, which they have full authority in any circumstance to do so.
That's incorrect. The American government only has authority (an abstract concept - such authority doesn't actually exist) to involve itself in affairs if an individual's right is being infringed upon by another. They technically have no jurisdiction otherwise. Of course, the government often infringes upon the rights of individuals. Who will govern them? The people, of course - its their government, but the people often prove themselves incapable of this.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Epigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
#8282792 - 04/14/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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culture is a set of eccentricites particular to a social group; it is not law, natural or artificial
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
#8282800 - 04/14/08 03:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Every other species survives by the sole governance of natural laws.
Erm, not so much...other species operate under social orders, too. We may not recognize the "government" of an anthill or wolf pack, but this does not mean that the only laws they must obey are natural laws. Everything with a brain lives according to both social rules AND natural laws.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
#8282801 - 04/14/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradley said: A government doesn't produce any wealth for the nation or any artifacts that enhance the quality of our lives.
The government facilitates the production of wealth and the enhancement of the quality of life.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Epigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
#8282822 - 04/14/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Every other species survives by the sole governance of natural laws.
Erm, not so much...other species operate under social orders, too. We may not recognize the "government" of an anthill or wolf pack, but this does not mean that the only laws they must obey are natural laws. Everything with a brain lives according to both social rules AND natural laws.
Isn't this pattern closer to family?
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