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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Traveller]
    #824934 - 08/18/02 07:13 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

what is called the atman in Hindu philosophy, another term could be "soul". apparently he didn't find any such thing.,

Buddhism is a religion based on Vedanta, (coming from the same movement as Hindu philosophy). There was no reform of it's concept of "soul", unless it was a reform of corruption of the original meaning.

There is no difference between the "soul" (not the right word for me to use because of the way it is used in our culture) in Buddhism and the soul in Hinduism. In either of these, there is no permanent survival of the personality (for eternity), your "soul" is the ground of being.

When Buddhism claims that there is no soul and no God (or rather, doesn't talk about God) it seems to be diametrically opposed to the Hindu idea of the atman being identical with Brahman. It is actually a way of stressing the same point.

See the Upanishads and the Bhagavad-Gita:

Upanishads

Bhagavad-Gita



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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: mirror_saw]
    #824953 - 08/18/02 07:37 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I will add that both in Buddhism and Vedanta there are different schools of thought as to how it should be understood, but I do not believe there is any essential difference.


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OfflineMahakala
Monk

Registered: 08/17/02
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: mirror_saw]
    #825010 - 08/18/02 08:23 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

HMMM, Ok well I believe in Karmic continuity, but indeed if there was a "GOD" he would have some explaining to do. Say for instance you start a fish tank, well ultimately you are the GOD of that tank and it is your job to keep it balanced, going on permenent vacation from the tank makes you a poor GOD, and if you have fish that are attacking your weaker fish it is your job to take care of that. Oddly enough at one point the Bible had parts concerning reincarnation, but it was removed, it was thought that it did not fit in with the GOD idea. Personaly I believe in no God, and perhaps if people even thought for a moment about reincarnation they wouldn't be half so tempted to ruin the world they live in. The idea that you only live once and that when you die GOD will take care of everything instills no sense of responsibility. How can you fear hell when you confess everything on Sunday?


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825053 - 08/18/02 08:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Jahannum is surely your destination Sclorch if you die with your current beliefs. When the fire burns, when your heart is screaming out to God, the Compassionate, the Merciful will forget you, since you forgot Him. All you had to do was believe.

Oh man, I almost had a jaw-breaking yawn... funny how you say Compassionate and Merciful God when he will forget you in the eternal Hell he created for his creations to burn in.



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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Mahakala]
    #825066 - 08/18/02 09:00 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

We aren't talking about a fish tank, we are talking about a world with self-reflecting life with free will. I don't even believe that we are "God's" equivalent of a fish tank. If you are going to create a world like this then you can hardly expect there to be no problems.

Should God have created the world differently? Perhaps he shouldn't have given us any choice but to do as he wanted?

You may suggest that you could have a world where you had a more immediate and perfect justice for anyone who caused harm. Nice idea, but I just get the feeling that maybe it wouldn't work in practice.

everyone please note: the last thing I want to do is start arguing over whether we have free will.


Edited by mirror_saw (08/18/02 09:11 AM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mr freedom]
    #825246 - 08/18/02 10:27 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

you fail to include, in your question, that the afterlife in question would be related to a god of any kind

My point exactly...i'm trying to see how the whole concept of an after life would jive with the more scientifically minded among us... to me an afterlife would mean that there is a purpose in life...but to a scientist it may just seem like an evolutionary step.

Swami: They =the scientific community.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Traveller]
    #825370 - 08/18/02 12:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

so buddha is burning in hell, since he believed that he had seen the truth: that there is NOTHING permanent, that the only truth is constant change, arising and passing away, that there is no way to prove for sure the existence of one supreme god.....

First, Buddha lived long before Allah established the final messengers, so it is safe to assume that he has a plea of ignorance on the Day of Judgement, and Paradise is where he dwells. As far as we (as humans) know, Buddha could have been a prophet of Allah.

but you know what? if that guy really did reach the mindstate he so beautifully spoke about, he could very well be burning in hell with a quiet little smile on his face (although i guess you don't have a face in hell since you've left your body behind, in which case the fires won't be hot, but then isn't the whole thing about the fires of hell - sorry, Jahannum(names are very important) a story meant to scare us into obedience?), perfectly balanced, quietly observing the rising and falling of the flames....

The belief of Buddhism is not a reality. It's just another deception. The buddhists reject Allah, and His Messengers. There is nothing beautiful about a shirk belief, that only decieves people from their Lord.

Everything a kufr (non-believer) does in this world out of wickedness only hurts himself in the long run, while the balance of evil and good in the world clearly benefit those who believe in Allah and His Messengers.

Humanity will one day, right before your eyes, become divided into two. Those who abide in the Fire, and those who abide in Paradise. The souls who abide in hell are worthless, for they disbelieved in Allah. They only served their existence in the world to benefit the faithful in the long run.

You have grown up in a Christian land. Thanks to technology, you have now learned about Islam. It's your turn to deal your cards. Will you surrender, or will you rebel? If you chose to rebel, then death is dealt to you. If you chose to surrender, then death is dealt to you. But remember this point, after death it is too late. All the kufr who die in the world immediately know the truth after only a matter of seconds of leaving the physical world. These few seconds are extremely traumatic for the disbelievers, and the rest of their existence is no worse. When a believer leaves the physical world, he is finally at rest, awaiting the Day of Judgement.

It's up to you: are you going to follow good (The Message of Jesus Christ, the Message of Muhammad, the Message of Moses), or evil (______insert shirk belief to justify rejection)?


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825382 - 08/18/02 12:19 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Why would you want to believe in a God who tortures people for all eternity no matter how much they "repent"? Sounds like a pretty mean god to me.

when your heart is screaming out to God, the Compassionate, the Merciful will forget you because you forgot Him.

Yeah.. that makes sense.



--------------------


Edited by Revelation (08/18/02 12:23 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825389 - 08/18/02 12:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

God isn't going to condemn anyone to eternal suffering...
Sure some people may take different paths and experience eternity in different ways
But in the end, we are all one... we are all God. We all flow from the same source.

Creation


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #825414 - 08/18/02 12:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Why would you want to believe in a God who tortures people for all eternity no matter how much they "repent"? Sounds like a pretty mean god to me.

Don't you see? You can't repent after death. Repentence exists only in the physical world for the believers. The disbelievers continued to sin and refused to seek refuge in Allah, who forgives all. If you are one of the worthless souls, Hell is your abide where you can beg the Merciful Allah all you want, He won't listen because you chose good over evil. Everything exists according to the will of God. Every last cursed soul of Hell only served their existence on earth to benefit those who surrender to God. The non-believers have no purpose, in the next life they don't exist, nor are they rewarded. Instead they are punished with the Fire.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 12:41 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825420 - 08/18/02 12:39 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps...but in the end... they all go back to God.
The non-believers, serve much as a purpose in the Universe as the believers do. It creates a balance, and from our limited insight in the 3rd dimensional plane into the mind of God, you cannot damn someone to a lake of flames for all of eternity for making a simple mental error in a place of confusion and limited vision into the higher planes. Perhaps if you were standing next to God, for all of eternity, and suddenly turned to him and said fuck you god, I'm better than you..like Lucifer did.. then perhaps you would go to "hell"... the "hell" you just created for yourself.
But in the end... Lucifer will stand next to God as will the rest of all living things, as it once was.


Edited by Shroomism (08/18/02 12:43 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #825436 - 08/18/02 12:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps...but in the end... they all go back to God.

Like I stated to Sclorch, the lack of the presence of God in the Fire is overwhelming. At this point it is too late. The humans in this world who do not believe serve only to benefit the believers in the long run. It stops here. This is where humanity is divided into two, right in front of your face. Good, and evil. Do you not see?


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 12:49 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825460 - 08/18/02 01:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I see... from my perspective those two polarities only exist in the 4th dimension. Either good or evil. In the 3rd dimension we have both polarities at the same time. In the 4th you commit yourself to one of the other.
However as one evolves into higher states of being, such polarities are not needed. We are all children of Creation, we are all a part of God. God will not deny his children. Perhaps they need to learn a few things before they can reach a higher state, but they are not stagnant in hell forever.

If they are serving the believers as you say...then they do serve a purpose.

As we raise in consciousness and dimensions, we will learn that God exists in all things. To deny it would be to deny yourself. One can only live in such a denial for a limited time.. in the light of understanding, there can be no wrong.

Everything exists for a reason.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #825518 - 08/18/02 01:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I see... from my perspective those two polarities only exist in the 4th dimension. Either good or evil. In the 3rd dimension we have both polarities at the same time. In the 4th you commit yourself to one of the other.
However as one evolves into higher states of being, such polarities are not needed. We are all children of Creation, we are all a part of God. God will not deny his children. Perhaps they need to learn a few things before they can reach a higher state, but they are not stagnant in hell forever.


What is your belief based on? Absolutely nothing. You conjugated it yourself so you can sleep at night while you reject the message of Muhammad, Christ, and Moses. Everything is in a plan, the disbelievers cannot ruin or touch these plans, for they are structured for the benefit of believers.

If they are serving the believers as you say...then they do serve a purpose.

They are not serving in the way that believers serve Allah. Once again, their evil benefits only those who believe. This is a spite against the unbelievers, if they knew the truth they would surely join the side of Allah. If you believe in Allah and His Messengers, the presence of kufr evil in this world will help you strive against evil within your soul. This is also what jihad is, and this is how believers benefit from the non-believers. Those who believe strive against evil.

As we raise in consciousness and dimensions, we will learn that God exists in all things. To deny it would be to deny yourself. One can only live in such a denial for a limited time.. in the light of understanding, there can be no wrong.

Correction: All things surrender to God. God does not exist within each creation. This is a deceptive belief. The only creatures who manifest free will are man and jinn. This is the big test - you're given the free will to choose good or evil. This is why non-believers perish. Choose your deen. Will you join Allah, or will you join the followers of Shaytaan (the followers of deception and wickedness)?

Everything exists for a reason.

For once, I agree with you.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 01:40 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825570 - 08/18/02 01:54 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

All hail Satan! Ruler of the Underworld!!!






























Seriously though... I serve the Creator of all that is Divine, being of eternal light and love. What i don't understand is this:

What is your belief based on? Absolutely nothing. You conjugated it yourself so you can sleep at night while you reject the message of Muhammad, Christ, and Moses.

No, actually I embrace the teachings of Christ, Moses, and Muhammad. My beliefs are based on my experiences. Christ taught love of all living things, evil or not. Damning someone for eternity to a lake of fire because they can't see the big picture... that's not very loving.

All things surrender to God. God does not exist within each creation. This is a deceptive belief.

One could say the same about your belief. The point is.. a belief is just that.. a belief. It can be different for everyone, none are fact, all are valid. Whatever is true for you is what's true for you. If it works it works.

I don't like going in circles.. so I will close on this note. Using your model, I have chosen to serve Allah. Love, understanding, wisdom, acceptance. Those are the virtues I wish to live by. That is the next step I agree with you...choose good or evil. But I also believe there are steps after that.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #825610 - 08/18/02 02:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

No, actually I embrace the teachings of Christ, Moses, and Muhammad. My beliefs are based on my experiences. Christ taught love of all living things, evil or not. Damning someone for eternity to a lake of fire because they can't see the big picture... that's not very loving.

Obviously you have not embraced the teachings of the Messengers since they involve belief, and surrendering to Allah in which the benefit of repetence is there for the believers. Obviously Christianity might not be your presumed path, for the message is too confusing to tell falsehood from truth. The same goes with your approach to Judaism. Now you have Islam, the religion that cannot be contradicted, and yet you do not appear to be a Muslim, but you appear to be munafiq. Why do you still reject Allah? Maybe a few grams of Cambodians, this thread printed out on paper will change your belief. Probably not though, because everything is in the planning. Until you're declaring faith in Allah and His messengers, I will believe otherwise. If, down the road in life you change your belief - say, when you are 67 years old you convert to Islam, or Christianity, then it was in the will of God that your soul was blessed at birth. But so far, you appear to be munafiq.

I must say, this debate has been civil, Thank you.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 02:17 PM)


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OfflineMahakala
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825633 - 08/18/02 02:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, are we cracking your world or what?. I believe all religions have a right to exist, because deep down they all have a code of ethics, words to live by, but everyone gets sooo wrapped up in the whole Heaven/Hell debate and we so often miss the whole point. Quite obviously we have both of these right here on Earth right now. Each person has the right to believe in any one god ( or Not), we should all be respectfull to each. Blind faith is ignorance however and yes for some ignorance is bliss. Had we just taken somebodys word that the world was flat would we have sailed around it? Every single story told by man is embelished by it's nature, even the Buddhist is taught to not take every story litteraly.

So often we think of religions as teams, by which we can choose a "right" side and wage a war against the other. If you asked me what team I was on I would say I choose Humanity, but there is little hope for us. We have allowed religion to become a crutch instead of a step to further understanding, we spend more time defending our beliefs than we do practicing them. Does repenting bring back the dead? Or Perhaps repenting erases other peoples suffering? Or perhaps being mindfull in the first place eradicates the need to repent? Having to defend a religion often brings about anger and frustration, often times it is purely reactionary and being reactionary robs you of your ability to reason. If your faith is true then you need not fear others disbelief, and you need not defend it.

And forget the fish tank thing, I think that analogy was lost in the translation.


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mahakala]
    #825661 - 08/18/02 02:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Hello,

I dont' know where you came from but you are a good addition to this forum IMO.

"If your faith is true then you need not fear others disbelief, and you need not defend it."

Yep, you nailed it.

Welcome and well met.

Cheers,


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mahakala]
    #825663 - 08/18/02 02:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm preaching Islam in this thread, not defending it. I'm attempting to open the eyes of a kufr on a logical, civil approach to the religion of Islam, the final message of Allah so that he can experience the love and mercy of Allah. In most cases, when ill fated kufr like Sclorch say "fuck your God" when I utter Jahannum, I don't bother preaching directly to them, because I see a sickness (read the verse in my signature). I preach to those open for civil debate. This is what this forum is for.

The faith Muslims, Jews, and Christians have today (and of yesterday and tomorrow) is not blind. If you only knew what a believer experiences.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 02:43 PM)


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825692 - 08/18/02 02:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

After following this thread for as long as I have, I still can't help but shake one thing every time I read one of your posts Zahid...and that, my friend, is that part in The Matrix where Morpheous is talking to Neo about the Oracle and is telling him "Try not to think of it in terms of right and wrong. She is a guide to help lead you down the correct path" and then later on when he's all like "She told you exactly what you needed to her - nothing else" ..... I think of these two quotes* when I read your posts because you seem to me like one of those people that refuse to believe you've been told what you need to hear to guid you down the right path...but instead, are so insistant on catagorising everything into the typic 'right' and 'wrong' 'good' and 'evil' categories. You yourself seem so hopelessly reliant on the physical words of these prophets, that you are blinded to the fact that their words were meant as guidance, not laws. (or at least, so it seems to me) I just can't help but think that it's people like you that are giving religions around the world bad reputations. Have you ever once even stopped to question your own beliefs? And if so, did you come up with any answer at all more concrete then "that's what it says, so it must be true" or "it just feels right to me, I can't explain it" or something else along those lines anyways? Cause it seems to me that for someone preaching so robustly about their beliefs, they should have good reason to have those beliefs in the first place.

But you know, that is just my opinion...and commin from someone that's destined to burn in Hell for eternity (at least by your standards anyways) I'm kind of doubting my opinions will mean all that much in your eyes.


* = not verbatim quotes, just a simple paraphrase to get my point across


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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