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InvisibleRevelation

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If they found definitive proof of an afterlife....
    #823720 - 08/17/02 03:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Would it make you more inclined to believe in a "god"?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #823813 - 08/17/02 04:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

A big "IF". (but I'll play along)

Since you only said "inclined", then I'd say yeah. However, my answer would still be largely dependent on the nature of this afterlife (assuming the evidence was compelling enough- it would have to be for me to accept it) AND the definition of this particular "God". And, as I've said before to Zahid, if s/he's a dick, then s/he can fuck off and I'll take my place in hell.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #823869 - 08/17/02 04:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

A big "IF". (but I'll play along)

Since you only said "inclined", then I'd say yeah. However, my answer would still be largely dependent on the nature of this afterlife (assuming the evidence was compelling enough- it would have to be for me to accept it) AND the definition of this particular "God". And, as I've said before to Zahid, if s/he's a dick, then s/he can fuck off and I'll take my place in hell.


Jahannum is surely your destination Sclorch if you die with your current beliefs. When the fire burns, when your heart is screaming out to God, the Compassionate, the Merciful will forget you, since you forgot Him. All you had to do was believe.

If you could but see when they are set before the Fire (Hell) and say, ?Would that we might return (to the world)! Then we would not reject the verses of our Lord, but we would be of the believers!? (Quran, 6:27)

And no Sclorch, you would never accept that you are in Hell when you arrive there. You would curse God, and you would be filled with most overwhelming, indescribable regret you have ever felt, and the presence of God will be so lacking you'll feel like a lost child. Don't you see the faithful don't just believe in doctrines as truth, we see the truth.


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OfflineBrukan
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #823918 - 08/17/02 04:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

> If they found definitive proof of an afterlife, would it make you more inclined to believe in a "god"?

I don't see how the two are connected? If there exists a connection and definitive proof of an afterlife, then yes I would be more inclined. If there does not exist a connection and definitive proof of an afterlife, then no I would not be more inclined.

This is a tricky item to discuss because it's rather theoretical and it's ramifications are so immense and vast. I don't believe there is a correct answer, but pure speculation that can't be discredited.


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #823959 - 08/17/02 05:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The Bible says, "Judge not lest you be judged."

I think someone here should switch religions at the very lest.

What thinkest thou, mon ami?

Cheers,


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #824013 - 08/17/02 05:36 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry, you fail to include, in your question, that the afterlife in question would be related to a god of any kind. I believe in UFO's (unidentified flying objects) but I don't necessarily think that UFO's are related to aliens.


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OfflineBrukan
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mr freedom]
    #824072 - 08/17/02 05:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

> I believe in UFO's (unidentified flying objects) but I don't necessarily think that UFO's are related to aliens.

Well said.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mr freedom]
    #824084 - 08/17/02 06:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I think the question depends on peoples idea on what god is. I beleive in god now, but my view of god sure isn't a magical creature in a cloud or something. I prefer to call it the ultimate reality. I beleive in incarnations, and death and rebirth. I see life as a serious of death and rebirths as each person evolves. If my idea is true, and my ego died, when I was reborn I guess I wouldn't be able to prove it anyways.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #824252 - 08/17/02 07:06 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

so buddha is burning in hell, since he believed that he had seen the truth: that there is NOTHING permanent, that the only truth is constant change, arising and passing away, that there is no way to prove for sure the existence of one supreme god.....

but you know what? if that guy really did reach the mindstate he so beautifully spoke about, he could very well be burning in hell with a quiet little smile on his face (although i guess you don't have a face in hell since you've left your body behind, in which case the fires won't be hot, but then isn't the whole thing about the fires of hell - sorry, Jahannum(names are very important) a story meant to scare us into obedience?), perfectly balanced, quietly observing the rising and falling of the flames....

What do you think of the Sufi, Zahid?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #824286 - 08/17/02 07:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I beleive in incarnations, and death and rebirth. I see life as a serious of death and rebirths as each person evolves.

I have a problem with the concept of reincarnation, and it's not even a philosophical one, it's simple arithmetic.

There are how many people on the planet? Six or seven billion? That's six billion souls available for reincarnation. Today, that's no problem. If you die, there'll be another body available right away for your soul to move into. But this wasn't always the case.

What about a few centuries back, when the number of humans was only a few tens of millions? Or a few millenia back, when there were maybe a million humans total, or even less? If there have always been six billion souls around (and there obviously must be at least that many), what were those souls doing to kill time while waiting for a new empty body to appear?

Let's do the math. At six billion souls and one million bodies, a soul would have to wait around for six thousand lifetimes before getting its first crack at inhabiting a human body. Even though the average lifespan of a Neanderthal might have been fairly low (let's assume twenty-five years), that means a wait of 150,000 years. And Neanderthals only appeared about 100,000 years ago. Homo sapiens as a species are thought to be no older than 250,000 years. And 250,000 years ago there were for darn sure less than a million of them, so the waiting time would have been even longer.

pinky



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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #824300 - 08/17/02 07:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Good point Droid. One must define "a god" for us to make a rational answer.

HEY SCHLORCH!!! You, me and Buddha, rockin' the underworld; LET THE BODY'S HIT THE FLOOR.


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Offlinetps
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mr freedom]
    #824305 - 08/17/02 07:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

if that was confirmed... Id find an amount of shrooms that matches my body weight and pig out. then see what happens. hehe


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Phred]
    #824306 - 08/17/02 07:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Let's do the math.

Quite.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #824344 - 08/17/02 07:50 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

First I want to know who "they" are...


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Phred]
    #824406 - 08/17/02 08:07 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

the buddha, doing his scientific lab research inside his own mind, talked about his search for "the builder of the house". he talked about witnessing countless past lives and whatnot and was trying to work out if there was a self, or some part that remained unchanged throughout the process of reincarnation - what is called the atman in hindu philosophy, another term could be "soul". apparently he didn't find any such thing. what he did observe (just chuck in the words "apparently" or "i have heard that" or whatever in the appropriate spaces, i'm not trying to pass this off as truth) was what we can call a "karmic stream of consciousness". karma being the law of one-thing-leading-to-another, thus a karmic stream of consciousness is like a wave, or a whole mess of waves where each new thought or emotion adds energy to these waves so they never seem to end - only the perfectly quiet balanced mind which adds absolutely no energy to any thoughts or emotions, eventually letting them all run their course and become still (like if you shake a bowl of water, then stop shaking it, it will eventually settle) -- only a mind in this state of absolute stillness, with all the past waves of emotion gone, will truly disappear upon the death of the body. so any body that dies while the mind is still active will leave behind a stream of consciousness that is not yet finished and then somehow moves on to inhabit another body.

he talked about various mindstates which can also be thought of as different planes of existence: the major ones if i remember correctly were

the mind state of an ANIMAL: the state where you try to get what you want regardless of the feelings or needs of others. like a pack of hungry dogs fighting over food, or pure sexual desire.
the mind state of a HUMAN: experience of duality, love hate pain pleasure etc.
the mind state of a GOD: pure bliss, often mistaken for enlightenment.
the mind state of an ASURA: or fallen god, an extremely high level of developement by one who has achieved extremely deep, blissful states but then believes theirs is the only true path...or something.
the mind state of a HELL: any feeling of hatred for oneself or any other being. "a hell" because there is not just one, but many different forms of hatred and anger.
and last the mind state of a HUNGRY GHOST: these hungry ghosts are drawn as sad grey ghosts with very large bellies but ridiculously thin necks! always hungry, never satisfied, any moment you are thinking of how the next thing will make you happy - be it a house or a girlfriend or a stronger body - of how this moment right now is not good enough, this is the state of a hungry ghost.

so while these can be talked about as planes of existence in themselves - meaning that there are GODS, or beings whose state is that of constant bliss lasting for thousands or millions of years (like the daoist immortals, boddhisattvas or the devas of the hindus), and of course animals and humans - it is normal for humans to be constantly moving in and out of all or any of these states. whatever state the mind is in at the moment of death supposedly results in the stream of consciousness progressing to inhabit the most appropriate realm - a mind filled with anger might be reborn in the body of an animal while someone dying in a meditative state of pure bliss might become a god. only the perfectly still mind can dissapear entirely and never be reborn, the stream of consciousness is finished and can never start again - nirvana. apparently the human state is the best for attaining this liberation since we are painfully aware of duality and are inherently unsatisfied - a god has no desire to escape its life since it is in a state of constant bliss, an animal has no time to dwell upon duality since it is constantly seeking to satisfy the senses.

so if any being can be reincarnated in any of these forms, and there are more and more humans being born, would that suggest some sort of universal progression towards liberation? apparently that's the whole point of reincarnation...to eventually FINISH.

what the fuck? well, it's one theory and i think it's kind of cool.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Traveller]
    #824583 - 08/17/02 09:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not sure exactly how these various states of mind are connected with different carnation, so I can't really comment on that...but I can say one thing about reincarnations in general though: if the purpose of reincarnation was to continually progress until one reaches a sort of state of fullfilment, then surely populations would slowly deplete over time as more and more people eventually reached this 'finish' you refer to (whatever that may be) But as stated earlier - human population has been steadily expanding for some time now, so obviously this can't be the case. Or so it would seem anyways. If one were to consider the fact that it might just be possible for a soul to be present in an animal or a plant for that matter, then it seems much more likely that things very well could be equaling out on the reincarnation front. As people expand their territories and venture out into new frontiers (as was the case with humans expanding into the Americas) they slowly but surely remove whatever was there before them and start taking it's place (e.g. trees are cut down for housing, animals are hunted for food, etc) So as new humans are comming into this world, plant and animal life are also depleating. In that respect, if these 'things' we as humans consume really do (did?) have souls then surely they would leave their perspective containers (referring of course to the body of a deer, or the trunk of a tree, and so forth) and find a new place to reside...be that human or animal or plant or whatever.

And just to toss another little bit into the equation - why must we limit the soul to our planet? Just because we don't yet have any factual evidence about there being life elsewhere in the universe, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If we can imagine there being such a thing as a soul in the first place, then why can't we imagine there being souls in other areas of our existence? Who's to say that the population growth of our species isn't due to the fact that some other civilization out there is slowly becomming extinct and those souls need a place to reside? Not that I'm saying that's actually what's happening...I just thought I'd throw a few things up in the air to give people a few more options to choose from, cause I personally think it's silly to think of something like population growth as factual evidence that reincarnation isn't possible. But hey, what do I know?


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #824689 - 08/17/02 11:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

one of the fundamental discoveries of the buddha was that THERE IS NO SOUL. this goes against everything the hindus had been saying for hundreds or even thousands of years. no permanent soul, only a karmic stream of consciousness, which is present in every conscious being ie animals humans gods insects hungry ghosts! etc. i believe he did not include plants in this....something i am far from understanding.

thus the fact that there are more humans now than before could be taken as evidence that life on earth is progressing - animals are being reborn as humans? who the fuck knows, the buddha certainly didn't suggest that we waste our time thinking about this kind of stuff!! be still, observe the arising and passing away of mental and physical states and you will come to know the ultimate truth, apparently. but it's fun to think about so...


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OfflineMahakala
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Traveller]
    #824721 - 08/18/02 12:34 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps humans subconciously believe that if they kill all other life on earth they have to be reborn as human. Either way, life is suffering none the less.




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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #824902 - 08/18/02 06:38 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You didn't state any connection between a god and an afterlife. In fact, I believe in some sort of afterlife but I don't believe in God.



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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Traveller]
    #824907 - 08/18/02 06:47 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Roger that...I see what you're getting at now.
I thought you were trying to show that those various states of minds were the same as different types of carnations...which of course, didn't make any sense at all. I guess I need to spend more time paying attention to what's actually be written, and less time simply passing over the words.


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Traveller]
    #824934 - 08/18/02 07:13 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

what is called the atman in Hindu philosophy, another term could be "soul". apparently he didn't find any such thing.,

Buddhism is a religion based on Vedanta, (coming from the same movement as Hindu philosophy). There was no reform of it's concept of "soul", unless it was a reform of corruption of the original meaning.

There is no difference between the "soul" (not the right word for me to use because of the way it is used in our culture) in Buddhism and the soul in Hinduism. In either of these, there is no permanent survival of the personality (for eternity), your "soul" is the ground of being.

When Buddhism claims that there is no soul and no God (or rather, doesn't talk about God) it seems to be diametrically opposed to the Hindu idea of the atman being identical with Brahman. It is actually a way of stressing the same point.

See the Upanishads and the Bhagavad-Gita:

Upanishads

Bhagavad-Gita



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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: mirror_saw]
    #824953 - 08/18/02 07:37 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I will add that both in Buddhism and Vedanta there are different schools of thought as to how it should be understood, but I do not believe there is any essential difference.


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OfflineMahakala
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: mirror_saw]
    #825010 - 08/18/02 08:23 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

HMMM, Ok well I believe in Karmic continuity, but indeed if there was a "GOD" he would have some explaining to do. Say for instance you start a fish tank, well ultimately you are the GOD of that tank and it is your job to keep it balanced, going on permenent vacation from the tank makes you a poor GOD, and if you have fish that are attacking your weaker fish it is your job to take care of that. Oddly enough at one point the Bible had parts concerning reincarnation, but it was removed, it was thought that it did not fit in with the GOD idea. Personaly I believe in no God, and perhaps if people even thought for a moment about reincarnation they wouldn't be half so tempted to ruin the world they live in. The idea that you only live once and that when you die GOD will take care of everything instills no sense of responsibility. How can you fear hell when you confess everything on Sunday?


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825053 - 08/18/02 08:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Jahannum is surely your destination Sclorch if you die with your current beliefs. When the fire burns, when your heart is screaming out to God, the Compassionate, the Merciful will forget you, since you forgot Him. All you had to do was believe.

Oh man, I almost had a jaw-breaking yawn... funny how you say Compassionate and Merciful God when he will forget you in the eternal Hell he created for his creations to burn in.



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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: Mahakala]
    #825066 - 08/18/02 09:00 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

We aren't talking about a fish tank, we are talking about a world with self-reflecting life with free will. I don't even believe that we are "God's" equivalent of a fish tank. If you are going to create a world like this then you can hardly expect there to be no problems.

Should God have created the world differently? Perhaps he shouldn't have given us any choice but to do as he wanted?

You may suggest that you could have a world where you had a more immediate and perfect justice for anyone who caused harm. Nice idea, but I just get the feeling that maybe it wouldn't work in practice.

everyone please note: the last thing I want to do is start arguing over whether we have free will.


Edited by mirror_saw (08/18/02 09:11 AM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mr freedom]
    #825246 - 08/18/02 10:27 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

you fail to include, in your question, that the afterlife in question would be related to a god of any kind

My point exactly...i'm trying to see how the whole concept of an after life would jive with the more scientifically minded among us... to me an afterlife would mean that there is a purpose in life...but to a scientist it may just seem like an evolutionary step.

Swami: They =the scientific community.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Traveller]
    #825370 - 08/18/02 12:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

so buddha is burning in hell, since he believed that he had seen the truth: that there is NOTHING permanent, that the only truth is constant change, arising and passing away, that there is no way to prove for sure the existence of one supreme god.....

First, Buddha lived long before Allah established the final messengers, so it is safe to assume that he has a plea of ignorance on the Day of Judgement, and Paradise is where he dwells. As far as we (as humans) know, Buddha could have been a prophet of Allah.

but you know what? if that guy really did reach the mindstate he so beautifully spoke about, he could very well be burning in hell with a quiet little smile on his face (although i guess you don't have a face in hell since you've left your body behind, in which case the fires won't be hot, but then isn't the whole thing about the fires of hell - sorry, Jahannum(names are very important) a story meant to scare us into obedience?), perfectly balanced, quietly observing the rising and falling of the flames....

The belief of Buddhism is not a reality. It's just another deception. The buddhists reject Allah, and His Messengers. There is nothing beautiful about a shirk belief, that only decieves people from their Lord.

Everything a kufr (non-believer) does in this world out of wickedness only hurts himself in the long run, while the balance of evil and good in the world clearly benefit those who believe in Allah and His Messengers.

Humanity will one day, right before your eyes, become divided into two. Those who abide in the Fire, and those who abide in Paradise. The souls who abide in hell are worthless, for they disbelieved in Allah. They only served their existence in the world to benefit the faithful in the long run.

You have grown up in a Christian land. Thanks to technology, you have now learned about Islam. It's your turn to deal your cards. Will you surrender, or will you rebel? If you chose to rebel, then death is dealt to you. If you chose to surrender, then death is dealt to you. But remember this point, after death it is too late. All the kufr who die in the world immediately know the truth after only a matter of seconds of leaving the physical world. These few seconds are extremely traumatic for the disbelievers, and the rest of their existence is no worse. When a believer leaves the physical world, he is finally at rest, awaiting the Day of Judgement.

It's up to you: are you going to follow good (The Message of Jesus Christ, the Message of Muhammad, the Message of Moses), or evil (______insert shirk belief to justify rejection)?


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825382 - 08/18/02 12:19 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Why would you want to believe in a God who tortures people for all eternity no matter how much they "repent"? Sounds like a pretty mean god to me.

when your heart is screaming out to God, the Compassionate, the Merciful will forget you because you forgot Him.

Yeah.. that makes sense.



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Edited by Revelation (08/18/02 12:23 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825389 - 08/18/02 12:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

God isn't going to condemn anyone to eternal suffering...
Sure some people may take different paths and experience eternity in different ways
But in the end, we are all one... we are all God. We all flow from the same source.

Creation


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #825414 - 08/18/02 12:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Why would you want to believe in a God who tortures people for all eternity no matter how much they "repent"? Sounds like a pretty mean god to me.

Don't you see? You can't repent after death. Repentence exists only in the physical world for the believers. The disbelievers continued to sin and refused to seek refuge in Allah, who forgives all. If you are one of the worthless souls, Hell is your abide where you can beg the Merciful Allah all you want, He won't listen because you chose good over evil. Everything exists according to the will of God. Every last cursed soul of Hell only served their existence on earth to benefit those who surrender to God. The non-believers have no purpose, in the next life they don't exist, nor are they rewarded. Instead they are punished with the Fire.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 12:41 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825420 - 08/18/02 12:39 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps...but in the end... they all go back to God.
The non-believers, serve much as a purpose in the Universe as the believers do. It creates a balance, and from our limited insight in the 3rd dimensional plane into the mind of God, you cannot damn someone to a lake of flames for all of eternity for making a simple mental error in a place of confusion and limited vision into the higher planes. Perhaps if you were standing next to God, for all of eternity, and suddenly turned to him and said fuck you god, I'm better than you..like Lucifer did.. then perhaps you would go to "hell"... the "hell" you just created for yourself.
But in the end... Lucifer will stand next to God as will the rest of all living things, as it once was.


Edited by Shroomism (08/18/02 12:43 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #825436 - 08/18/02 12:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps...but in the end... they all go back to God.

Like I stated to Sclorch, the lack of the presence of God in the Fire is overwhelming. At this point it is too late. The humans in this world who do not believe serve only to benefit the believers in the long run. It stops here. This is where humanity is divided into two, right in front of your face. Good, and evil. Do you not see?


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 12:49 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825460 - 08/18/02 01:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I see... from my perspective those two polarities only exist in the 4th dimension. Either good or evil. In the 3rd dimension we have both polarities at the same time. In the 4th you commit yourself to one of the other.
However as one evolves into higher states of being, such polarities are not needed. We are all children of Creation, we are all a part of God. God will not deny his children. Perhaps they need to learn a few things before they can reach a higher state, but they are not stagnant in hell forever.

If they are serving the believers as you say...then they do serve a purpose.

As we raise in consciousness and dimensions, we will learn that God exists in all things. To deny it would be to deny yourself. One can only live in such a denial for a limited time.. in the light of understanding, there can be no wrong.

Everything exists for a reason.


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #825518 - 08/18/02 01:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I see... from my perspective those two polarities only exist in the 4th dimension. Either good or evil. In the 3rd dimension we have both polarities at the same time. In the 4th you commit yourself to one of the other.
However as one evolves into higher states of being, such polarities are not needed. We are all children of Creation, we are all a part of God. God will not deny his children. Perhaps they need to learn a few things before they can reach a higher state, but they are not stagnant in hell forever.


What is your belief based on? Absolutely nothing. You conjugated it yourself so you can sleep at night while you reject the message of Muhammad, Christ, and Moses. Everything is in a plan, the disbelievers cannot ruin or touch these plans, for they are structured for the benefit of believers.

If they are serving the believers as you say...then they do serve a purpose.

They are not serving in the way that believers serve Allah. Once again, their evil benefits only those who believe. This is a spite against the unbelievers, if they knew the truth they would surely join the side of Allah. If you believe in Allah and His Messengers, the presence of kufr evil in this world will help you strive against evil within your soul. This is also what jihad is, and this is how believers benefit from the non-believers. Those who believe strive against evil.

As we raise in consciousness and dimensions, we will learn that God exists in all things. To deny it would be to deny yourself. One can only live in such a denial for a limited time.. in the light of understanding, there can be no wrong.

Correction: All things surrender to God. God does not exist within each creation. This is a deceptive belief. The only creatures who manifest free will are man and jinn. This is the big test - you're given the free will to choose good or evil. This is why non-believers perish. Choose your deen. Will you join Allah, or will you join the followers of Shaytaan (the followers of deception and wickedness)?

Everything exists for a reason.

For once, I agree with you.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 01:40 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825570 - 08/18/02 01:54 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

All hail Satan! Ruler of the Underworld!!!






























Seriously though... I serve the Creator of all that is Divine, being of eternal light and love. What i don't understand is this:

What is your belief based on? Absolutely nothing. You conjugated it yourself so you can sleep at night while you reject the message of Muhammad, Christ, and Moses.

No, actually I embrace the teachings of Christ, Moses, and Muhammad. My beliefs are based on my experiences. Christ taught love of all living things, evil or not. Damning someone for eternity to a lake of fire because they can't see the big picture... that's not very loving.

All things surrender to God. God does not exist within each creation. This is a deceptive belief.

One could say the same about your belief. The point is.. a belief is just that.. a belief. It can be different for everyone, none are fact, all are valid. Whatever is true for you is what's true for you. If it works it works.

I don't like going in circles.. so I will close on this note. Using your model, I have chosen to serve Allah. Love, understanding, wisdom, acceptance. Those are the virtues I wish to live by. That is the next step I agree with you...choose good or evil. But I also believe there are steps after that.


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #825610 - 08/18/02 02:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

No, actually I embrace the teachings of Christ, Moses, and Muhammad. My beliefs are based on my experiences. Christ taught love of all living things, evil or not. Damning someone for eternity to a lake of fire because they can't see the big picture... that's not very loving.

Obviously you have not embraced the teachings of the Messengers since they involve belief, and surrendering to Allah in which the benefit of repetence is there for the believers. Obviously Christianity might not be your presumed path, for the message is too confusing to tell falsehood from truth. The same goes with your approach to Judaism. Now you have Islam, the religion that cannot be contradicted, and yet you do not appear to be a Muslim, but you appear to be munafiq. Why do you still reject Allah? Maybe a few grams of Cambodians, this thread printed out on paper will change your belief. Probably not though, because everything is in the planning. Until you're declaring faith in Allah and His messengers, I will believe otherwise. If, down the road in life you change your belief - say, when you are 67 years old you convert to Islam, or Christianity, then it was in the will of God that your soul was blessed at birth. But so far, you appear to be munafiq.

I must say, this debate has been civil, Thank you.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 02:17 PM)


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825633 - 08/18/02 02:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, are we cracking your world or what?. I believe all religions have a right to exist, because deep down they all have a code of ethics, words to live by, but everyone gets sooo wrapped up in the whole Heaven/Hell debate and we so often miss the whole point. Quite obviously we have both of these right here on Earth right now. Each person has the right to believe in any one god ( or Not), we should all be respectfull to each. Blind faith is ignorance however and yes for some ignorance is bliss. Had we just taken somebodys word that the world was flat would we have sailed around it? Every single story told by man is embelished by it's nature, even the Buddhist is taught to not take every story litteraly.

So often we think of religions as teams, by which we can choose a "right" side and wage a war against the other. If you asked me what team I was on I would say I choose Humanity, but there is little hope for us. We have allowed religion to become a crutch instead of a step to further understanding, we spend more time defending our beliefs than we do practicing them. Does repenting bring back the dead? Or Perhaps repenting erases other peoples suffering? Or perhaps being mindfull in the first place eradicates the need to repent? Having to defend a religion often brings about anger and frustration, often times it is purely reactionary and being reactionary robs you of your ability to reason. If your faith is true then you need not fear others disbelief, and you need not defend it.

And forget the fish tank thing, I think that analogy was lost in the translation.


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mahakala]
    #825661 - 08/18/02 02:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Hello,

I dont' know where you came from but you are a good addition to this forum IMO.

"If your faith is true then you need not fear others disbelief, and you need not defend it."

Yep, you nailed it.

Welcome and well met.

Cheers,


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mahakala]
    #825663 - 08/18/02 02:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I'm preaching Islam in this thread, not defending it. I'm attempting to open the eyes of a kufr on a logical, civil approach to the religion of Islam, the final message of Allah so that he can experience the love and mercy of Allah. In most cases, when ill fated kufr like Sclorch say "fuck your God" when I utter Jahannum, I don't bother preaching directly to them, because I see a sickness (read the verse in my signature). I preach to those open for civil debate. This is what this forum is for.

The faith Muslims, Jews, and Christians have today (and of yesterday and tomorrow) is not blind. If you only knew what a believer experiences.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 02:43 PM)


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825692 - 08/18/02 02:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

After following this thread for as long as I have, I still can't help but shake one thing every time I read one of your posts Zahid...and that, my friend, is that part in The Matrix where Morpheous is talking to Neo about the Oracle and is telling him "Try not to think of it in terms of right and wrong. She is a guide to help lead you down the correct path" and then later on when he's all like "She told you exactly what you needed to her - nothing else" ..... I think of these two quotes* when I read your posts because you seem to me like one of those people that refuse to believe you've been told what you need to hear to guid you down the right path...but instead, are so insistant on catagorising everything into the typic 'right' and 'wrong' 'good' and 'evil' categories. You yourself seem so hopelessly reliant on the physical words of these prophets, that you are blinded to the fact that their words were meant as guidance, not laws. (or at least, so it seems to me) I just can't help but think that it's people like you that are giving religions around the world bad reputations. Have you ever once even stopped to question your own beliefs? And if so, did you come up with any answer at all more concrete then "that's what it says, so it must be true" or "it just feels right to me, I can't explain it" or something else along those lines anyways? Cause it seems to me that for someone preaching so robustly about their beliefs, they should have good reason to have those beliefs in the first place.

But you know, that is just my opinion...and commin from someone that's destined to burn in Hell for eternity (at least by your standards anyways) I'm kind of doubting my opinions will mean all that much in your eyes.


* = not verbatim quotes, just a simple paraphrase to get my point across


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #825710 - 08/18/02 03:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

After following this thread for as long as I have, I still can't help but shake one thing every time I read one of your posts Zahid...and that, my friend, is that part in The Matrix where Morpheous is talking to Neo about the Oracle and is telling him "Try not to think of it in terms of right and wrong. She is a guide to help lead you down the correct path" and then later on when he's all like "She told you exactly what you needed to her - nothing else" ..... I think of these two quotes* when I read your posts because you seem to me like one of those people that refuse to believe you've been told what you need to hear to guid you down the right path...but instead, are so insistant on catagorising everything into the typic 'right' and 'wrong' 'good' and 'evil' categories. You yourself seem so hopelessly reliant on the physical words of these prophets, that you are blinded to the fact that their words were meant as guidance, not laws. (or at least, so it seems to me) I just can't help but think that it's people like you that are giving religions around the world bad reputations. Have you ever once even stopped to question your own beliefs? And if so, did you come up with any answer at all more concrete then "that's what it says, so it must be true" or "it just feels right to me, I can't explain it" or something else along those lines anyways? Cause it seems to me that for someone preaching so robustly about their beliefs, they should have good reason to have those beliefs in the first place.

Do the people of the deen care what opinions the infidels conjure? No. We do exactly what you mentioned, we hear and obey. With guidance comes law. Are you familiar with Shariah? Allah sent the message down, we hear, and we obey. When you begin to open your heart to God, He will quickly guide you to the straight path. This may happen in a period of months or years, but if you believe, Allah will guide you. When you believe, Allah presents to you a complete understanding of the world around you sanctioned to your faith in Allah. We preach, because we know the truth.

But you know, that is just my opinion...and commin from someone that's destined to burn in Hell for eternity (at least by your standards anyways) I'm kind of doubting my opinions will mean all that much in your eyes.

You're correct, It does not mean all that much in my eyes because I see the faults in your kufr belief. May Allah guide you? That is for Allah to decide.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 03:08 PM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825851 - 08/18/02 03:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What is it that made/makes you think that Islam is a more valid religion than say....buddhism. This is not flame but a genuine question. I would like to know why you chose your particular faith..what was it that made you think "Yes, this is the way"?


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #825856 - 08/18/02 03:50 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I will explain that too.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 03:50 PM)


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825906 - 08/18/02 04:05 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So one cannot follow Christ, Allah or anyone else unless they have faith? So which is more important to you the message or the vessel that carries it. What use is the cup after you drink the water? Perhaps if we skip the cup alltogether and drink directly from the river.
Often times preaching is a reaction to help save a situation (much like this reply, empty). Faith without understanding is like thinking you can walk on clouds just because you can see them.


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825965 - 08/18/02 04:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I totally agree with Traveller
traveller wrote:
so buddha is burning in hell, since he believed that he had seen the truth: that there is NOTHING permanent, that the only truth is constant change, arising and passing away, that there is no way to prove for sure the existence of one supreme god.....
but you know what? if that guy really did reach the mind state he so beautifully spoke about, he could very well be burning in hell with a quiet little smile on his face (although i guess you don't have a face in hell since you've left your body behind, in which case the fires won't be hot, but then isn't the whole thing about the fires of hell - sorry, Jahannum(names are very important) a story meant to scare us into obedience?), perfectly balanced, quietly observing the rising and falling of the flames....
----------------------
Being mennonite I have seen all of the mind washing techniques used to "scare" people into "believing". As a child in sunday school just 8 years old my teachers told the class that if we did not believe in god that we would burn in hell and she proceeded to describe in detail about the horrific things that would happen. She was reading from the church's daily devotional book that instructed to use this type of teaching method because it is the only way for the kids to understand . It is all stories to scare people to conform to a unity and there are much more effective ways of accomplishing this. There are many different way's of reading the bible and the way that makes the most sense to anybody is to interpret it in the way's of our predecessors because that is the way we were taught. One day I sat down with my bible (king james ver.) and 2 grams of b+ strain and a dictionary. as I was reading I was noticing how people in my area have been using the bible as a rule book forgetting that the stories in the bible are just stories that we can learn from example without actually having to experience them. Further threw the book I also came to realize that religion is what you perceive it to be. It is unfair to use scare tactics to try to influence people to believe what you believe. After all I doubt that you have been to hell so is it fair for you to tell someone that they will burn because they are responding to a hypothetical question? If you were trying to prove a point and I have totally missed it I apologize but please respond to this because I am interested in your point of view. ps. you might find www.peterrussell.com an interesting read -- especially "passing thoughts"--


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826323 - 08/18/02 06:20 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

That's exactly the sort of answer I was expecting to hear...you have done nothing but confirmed my belief that you are little more then a brainwashed zombie. Ever hear the poem The Walrus And The Carpenter? It's about a group of clams who blindly walk right into the grasps of a couple of hungry characters, and are then eaten while crocadile tears are being shed for them. If you can't even do so much as explain why you hold the beliefs you do, then you are no better off then those ignorant little clams. All I asked for was an explination, and all I got in return was: "Do the people of the deen care what opinions the infidels conjure?" This explains absolutely nothing on your part, and leaves me to assume that you don't actually have any concrete basis for your belief structure. All you've been doing this entirre thread is play the neener-neener-neener game of 'I'm right and there's nothing you can do to change my mind'

Well, that's great...I'm not trying to change your mind. All I'm trying to do is get you to come to grasps as to why exactly you have the beliefs you do. Cause I honestly don't think you're even aware of the WHYs behind em...I think if you were so sure of your beliefs you would have spouted something off right away when Shroomism and I inquired about them. But instead, you insist on taking a few days to get around to it. Why exactly is that? Do you need time to re-evaluate your ideals or what? Or are you just stalling so you can have enough time to find quotes and 'holy scriptures' that justify your zombism? A person that truely believed in something unconditionally wouldn't need to take a few days off to gather their thoughts.

But it's not like any of this really matters anyway...I'm just wasting my breath, aren't I?


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Edited by Mystical_Craven (08/18/02 06:23 PM)


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #826373 - 08/18/02 06:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Amen brother!


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #826617 - 08/18/02 08:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

A little acerbic but one of your better posts, imo.

Nailed 'im as far as I can see.

good job

cheers,


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: mirror_saw]
    #826649 - 08/18/02 08:21 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

It is actually a way of stressing the same point.

this is the way i understand it as well, but obviously the intellectual "understanding" of these things means very little.


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #826655 - 08/18/02 08:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

how would the existence of an afterlife suggest a purpose in this life?


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826670 - 08/18/02 08:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The belief of Buddhism is not a reality.

there is no belief of buddhism. the buddha did not say "believe me", he said "do not believe me, try and see for yourself". he said "observe the reality as it is, do not try to change it", he also said "do not believe something because your teacher told you, because it is written in the holy scriptures, because it makes sense, because it agrees with what you already believe..." etc. this is another of the fundamentals of buddhist PRACTICE, as opposed to the "buddhism" followed by most "buddhists" who bow down to statues of the buddha and pray for good luck. the path set out by the buddha is based on NOTHING except PURE EXPERIENCE.

what you are saying is bullshit man, even if it were true do you really think anyone is going to completely change their lives and start believing in ALLAH (a WORD man, just another word...) because YOU (some dude on an internet forum) say so?

i'm not trying to attack you personally or say that your beliefs are wrong - you might have experiences which prove to you the truth of your beliefs - but your message is not new, nor is it helping anyone.


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826673 - 08/18/02 08:36 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

so what if you live a flawless, sinless life but don't believe in ALLAH? do you still go to hell?


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826681 - 08/18/02 08:40 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

ok then! ALLAH the all merciful forgives all AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE, yes? thus those who BELIEVE in allah and go on to slaughter as many people as they can before committing suicide will be forgiven and go to paradise, while those who try to live good lives and do not believe will burn in the fires of hell?


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Traveller]
    #826698 - 08/18/02 08:50 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

just in case, one more time, i'll say: whenever i say "buddha said this" or that or whatever please chuck in the words "apparently" or "i've heard that" or something, in the appropriate place, because i wasn't there and didn't hear him say anything so i don't know for sure if it's true and am not pretending to. sometimes i read what i'm writing and think maybe i'm starting to sound like i think i actually know what's going on. oops!


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Traveller]
    #826721 - 08/18/02 09:05 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Traveller wrote:
ok then! ALLAH the all merciful forgives all AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE, yes? thus those who BELIEVE in allah and go on to slaughter as many people as they can before committing suicide will be forgiven and go to paradise, while those who try to live good lives and do not believe will burn in the fires of hell?
-----------------------------
That is a good point Traveller, consider this: If you had the chance to assassinate Adolph Hitler before he had started his war with the world knowing that you would prevent the killing and tragedy that would be to come; would you go to hell? Even if you assassinated him after the holocaust? You obviously have taken someone's life but did it have a greater cause? hmmm...


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Edited by FlusH (08/18/02 09:07 PM)


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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: FlusH]
    #826755 - 08/18/02 09:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You obviously have taken someone's life but did it have a greater cause? hmmm...

This is why it is clearly stated in the Bible, " 'Vengeance is mine!' sayeth the Lord." Because someone can always find a justifiable reason for taking a life and one leads to the next, each man certain his judgement is in the highest good.

Think on this and get back to me.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFlusH
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Swami]
    #826782 - 08/18/02 09:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Swami wrote:
This is why it is clearly stated in the Bible, " 'Vengeance is mine!' sayeth the Lord." Because someone can always find a justifiable reason for taking a life and one leads to the next, each man certain his judgement is in the highest good.
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Very interesting, I am heading to bed now but I will definitely be chewing on this! Here is one for you. What if that person was willing to be cast into hell ( accepted his fate ) by assassinating Hitler knowing what was going to happen/after it happened?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826882 - 08/18/02 11:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Zahid, you will burn in hell for all eternity because you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. You have heard of him? I'm afraid you can't plead ignorance my friend. Yup, it's straight to the ninth level of hell for you where maggots will feast on your flesh and burning sulfur will rain down on you and all your non-believing Muslim friends... The message is clear, yet you have chosen to follow a degenerate false god. You have rejected His message and His messangers (me! ) and so you will burn for all eternity.

hehe, now you know how it feels.

Please spare us this religious contempt in the future.




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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #826884 - 08/18/02 11:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

hehe


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #827485 - 08/19/02 08:21 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, you're right Mr_Mushrooms I was acting too much off of emotions in that last one. What can I say, I'm not without ego...I'll admit it. It just irked me that I would be blown off so nonchalantly, while Revelation's nearly identical question was taken into consideration. I'm thinking now that's probably due to the fact that I wasn't clear enough in my wording. I never really have been all that much of a linguist though (which I think should be fairly obvious by now) so if that is the case, then I'd certainly understand why Zihad might not have even picked up on what I was trying to say. Maybe I should have given myself a bit of time too cool off before responding, but I suppose it's too late for that now. I guess I have no choice but to sit back and wait for a response (assuming of course that I actually get one)

Revelation - I appreciate you're rephrasing my questioning in a more coherant manner (regardless if this was done intentionally or simply because you too were pondering the same thing...the important thing is the question got across one way or another)

and Zihad - I appologize for the 'tonality' (if there is a such a thing in written communication) of my last post. I know it must seem like a personal attack...but try to understand I'm not trying to bash your beliefs, I just want to know why you hold those beliefs as firmly as you do.


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #827679 - 08/19/02 10:22 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Shroomism:

We are all children of Creation, we are all a part of God. God will not deny his children. Perhaps they need to learn a few things before they can reach a higher state, but they are not stagnant in hell forever.

Zahid:

What is your belief based on? Absolutely nothing. You conjugated it yourself so you can sleep at night while you reject the message of Muhammad, Christ, and Moses.

You say that Shroomism's belief's are based on nothing. You could find support for them in the books of Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism etc.

Also, the writings of Christian and Muslim Mystics can express very similar ideas to the Eastern mystics. The one significant difference is that they don't say there is a shared identity with the divine (although they come close to it). This may be because if they did they would likely be executed for blasphemy. Mystics in both these faiths have on occasion managed to get themselves into some fairly serious trouble by overstepping the mark.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mirror_saw]
    #827717 - 08/19/02 10:40 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The brain is god.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mirror_saw]
    #827768 - 08/19/02 11:08 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah thanks for that... my beliefs are not based on nothing. I use elements of Taoism, Buddhism, Paganism..hell there's probably a couple elements of Satanism and Christianity in there too..and combine them with my own experiences and form what I call Shroomism. It's not so much of a religion as it is just a way to feel connected. It works for me, cool. That's what beliefs are.. a mentally projected image of how something will be...that image may not be completely accurate, but it certainly can go a long way in determing how one deals with that something once they are face to face with it. Zahid is pretty steadfast in his beliefs... that's ok. So am I, I suppose. Until I'm shown different, then I will change my beliefs accordingly.


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #827841 - 08/19/02 11:34 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I wasn't trying to offend you by telling you what you believe, and what your beliefs are based on. I don't know you, and I obviously wouldn't claim to know why you believe what you do.

I was just pointing out that the idea that hell is not a permanent state, and that everyone is eventually liberated does have support in a number of religions, it's not something that's just made up. Although if you are saying you did just make it up then fine.

Zahid was saying his belief was based on the Koran. My point was really to ask why is the Koran any more reliable than other traditions holy books.

I apologize if you got the impression that I was misrepresenting you, or presuming to understand your beliefs. That wasn't my intention.


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mirror_saw]
    #827860 - 08/19/02 11:40 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

No offense taken


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Traveller]
    #827873 - 08/19/02 11:45 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

how would the existence of an afterlife suggest a purpose in this life?

That would just be my take on it. If there was no intended purpose, why divide the experience? By purpose I just mean "not random". I think the "purpose" of dividing the life experience up into segments would be so that we might experience it from different points of view. I see that as purpose.


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #827992 - 08/19/02 12:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

my beliefs are not based on nothing

I may have misread this as being poor english... e.g. "I didn't do nothing"



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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: mirror_saw]
    #828015 - 08/19/02 12:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

heh yeah sorry for the double negative


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OfflineDanimal
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #836931 - 08/22/02 09:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

When you begin to open your heart to God, He will quickly guide you to the straight path.
This implies freewill and ability to accept God/Allah, and in doing so, Allah will help you asap.

May Allah guide you? That is for Allah to decide.
This implies Allah chooses who are the lucky souls and who he's going to guide.

Er....I'm confused.

In response to the original thread, I'd have to plea the sclorch. If the God Zahid preaches were the real deal(I doubt it), I definitely wouldn't worship a hell-condemning, angry-sounding higher being. But that's just me, the silly infidel.


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