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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky'
    #8219328 - 03/31/08 01:04 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

A very enlightening cartoon.

read here

Check it out - the entire website parodies fallacious beliefs.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (03/31/08 01:26 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8220089 - 03/31/08 03:47 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

it's so you
bravo!
I love it


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8220167 - 03/31/08 04:01 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Did you check out the others? There are about dozen gems there. :thumbup:


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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8220452 - 03/31/08 04:41 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I like the priest's proof of God :rofl2:

"See?"

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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8220485 - 03/31/08 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

THESE ARE AMAZING! THANKS OG!

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: Atheist]
    #8220530 - 03/31/08 04:55 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)


Perfect.


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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8220587 - 03/31/08 05:09 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

lulz


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Offlineflangenips
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #8221643 - 03/31/08 08:48 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

hehe, i enjoyed these cartoons.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: flangenips]
    #8221874 - 03/31/08 09:28 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

This one is golden



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8221891 - 03/31/08 09:30 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

It is not nice to mock Ginseng! :nono:


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8223001 - 04/01/08 03:06 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

holy shit you even read rational atheist comics?

if you guys want to steal my ideas, there is no rational atheist dating.com yet. those people have money too, and i think there may be a niche market for it.

if you take me idea and make it successful please give me a minimum wage job working on the website.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8223013 - 04/01/08 03:32 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
holy shit you even read rational atheist comics?

if you guys want to steal my ideas, there is no rational atheist dating.com yet. those people have money too, and i think there may be a niche market for it.

if you take me idea and make it successful please give me a minimum wage job working on the website.




Sounds like a good idea to me.


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8223019 - 04/01/08 03:39 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

The main problem i have with this "rational atheist" mindset is that they seem to only criticise other people ideas rather than make their own. And its often not constructive criticism, instead its condescension. Its much easier to criticise than to go out on a limb with your own idea.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8223044 - 04/01/08 04:24 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Some of 'our own' ideas: the computer, the internet, space travel, electricity, DVDs, satellite communications, radio, vaccinations...


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8223047 - 04/01/08 04:27 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
A very enlightening cartoon.

read here

Check it out - the entire website parodies fallacious beliefs.




Is this your source of inspiration for P&S threads?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8223054 - 04/01/08 04:33 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

You associate those inventions with your own way of thought?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8223056 - 04/01/08 04:35 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Didn't you know that OC is Al Gore, and that he invented the internet?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8223101 - 04/01/08 05:25 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

You may call me AlgorenConclusion...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8223109 - 04/01/08 05:31 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

You associate those inventions with your own way of thought?





Modern astronomy which eventually led to space travel started with Galileo - and what did the religious nutter have to say about that?

Rational thought and skeptical examination, not dogma and unquestioning belief, has led to every modern invention.

Every mushroom cultivation technique is based upon science.

The anti-evolutionists did not bring about great new strains of cannabis because, like stuff doesn't change, man. :spliff:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8223115 - 04/01/08 05:34 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Is this your source of inspiration for P&S threads?




Even though I just read it yesterday, I time travelled back 8 years to bring you a zillion posts chock-full of enlightenment and merriment. :sun:


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8223131 - 04/01/08 05:43 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I think inspiration and a willingness to think outside the square contributed to those discoveries as well. There also made by people who are able to make original and new ideas. Like how Leonardo's scrap book was full of stuff which walked the boundaries between insanity and genius. Imagination plays a huge part in discovering new things. I don't understand why people think science is unimaginative and dry. Science is about imagination and exploration as much as it is about skepticism.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8223175 - 04/01/08 06:21 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

That may be, but you haven't really provided any substantiation for your conclusion that people who have a "rational atheist" mindset seem to only criticize ideas instead of creating their own. Honestly, it sounds like your own generalized assumption, and there's nothing I have more disdain for in philosophical and spiritual discussion than generalized assumptions.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8223203 - 04/01/08 06:40 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

It was poor wording on my behalf. Obviously there's nothing wrong with having a rational mind, and atheists are as creative as anyone else. I was more commenting on people who ridicule other peoples ideas and beliefs rather than raising there own. I'm all for debate, but it should be done respectfully and constructively. New ideas have a habit of being ridiculed, i don't see any reason for doing this. To me thats a personal attack which is what i disdain the most in a debate.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8223222 - 04/01/08 06:49 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:


It was poor wording on my behalf. Obviously there's nothing wrong with having a rational mind, and atheists are as creative as anyone else. I was more commenting on people who ridicule other peoples ideas and beliefs rather than raising there own. I'm all for debate, but it should be done respectfully and constructively. New ideas have a habit of being ridiculed, i don't see any reason for doing this. To me thats a personal attack which is what i disdain the most in a debate.




Great points. I tend to agree, albeit it would depend on the definition of "ridicule" and whether or not a critique is being misinterpreted as being ridiculed. This, of course, would have to be reviewed case by case. Criticism with no substance or purpose would be seen as ridicule, I guess, such as statements like "This idea is stupid". However, I do disagree with you on the personal attack conclusion. Ridicule of an idea or perspective is ridicule of an idea or perspective, and to qualify as a personal attack would require reference to the personal identity or nature of the poster themselves.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8223249 - 04/01/08 07:04 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I think when we start ridiculing it brings it to a personal level. Like if i say "This idea is stupid" it kind of infers that the person who said it is stupid. And the more i ridicule the more personal it becomes, like if i say "That idea is the most stupid, most pathetic thing i have ever heard" its almost a direct insult to the persons intelligence. But i also understand your perspective that it can be seen as being directed solely at the idea. I guess in someways its subjective.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8223256 - 04/01/08 07:12 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I can understand how people would take it personally, but this forum itself is intended for the personal nature of posters to not be open to debate, so unless someone actually violates that and directly addresses it, then everyone should be realized of the distinction and take criticism or ridicule of ideas as being entirely distinct from their personal identity. Of course, as we already established, empty ridicule is pointless, but as long as someone does not take it personally, it remains pointless, devoid of meaning, and the poster presenting ridicule has accomplished absolutely nothing. If it arises, it should be dismissed for being as much.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8223627 - 04/01/08 09:41 AM (16 years, 23 hours ago)

Yeah, what you said!  :smile:

Debate and criticism of ideas is an essential part of "doing" philosophy.  This forum could be a philosophy workshop, in which posters bring their fledgling thoughts to determine whether they will "fly."  Unfortunately, IMO, this process too often turns into arguments over WHO is criticizing the ideas, and WHETHER ideas should be criticized at all.

Strong, sturdy, well-supported philosophy does not require protection.  It will weather any skeptical storm, and show merit through survival.  Weak, flimsy, unsupported philosophy will topple and crumble in the slightest breeze of critical analysis, as well it should.  Why anyone would want to cling to philosophical ideas which cannot withstand scrutiny is beyond me...survival of the fittest, FTW!  :smile:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: Veritas]
    #8225759 - 04/01/08 07:03 PM (16 years, 14 hours ago)

Ive noticed this as well. Personally i think people are getting upset at the way their ideas are being debated, rather than the debate itself. If we are respectful and objective, we can say pretty much whatever we like and not many people will mind. When you ridicule something you start using emotive language. Emotive language is used to create an emotional response. To me, emotions are on a personal level and are not objective.

It is possible to ridicule someone and then to put forward a structured argument. This is actually quite common human behaviour. We make the other person appear stupid by using emotive language, so that our argument will hold more weight.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8226023 - 04/01/08 08:09 PM (16 years, 12 hours ago)

The problem for me has been that no matter what your argument a certain type here pretends their subjective opinion is real and solid evidence in a debate. They disregard all evidence that goes against there personal feelings on a subject. They do not debate in good faith IMO and so as far as I'm concerned they are fair game as long as no rules are broken. I actually go after these people in an attempt to get them to leave this forum. I know it's mean but I am the Ice man.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8226775 - 04/01/08 11:19 PM (16 years, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Ive noticed this as well. Personally i think people are getting upset at the way their ideas are being debated, rather than the debate itself. If we are respectful and objective, we can say pretty much whatever we like and not many people will mind. When you ridicule something you start using emotive language. Emotive language is used to create an emotional response. To me, emotions are on a personal level and are not objective.

It is possible to ridicule someone and then to put forward a structured argument. This is actually quite common human behaviour. We make the other person appear stupid by using emotive language, so that our argument will hold more weight.




Yes! Blatant disrespect/mockery for another poster is very clear in many 'structured debates' here, and it seems to be perfectly acceptable. I realize that it doesn't necessarily effect the substance of the debate itself, but it often comes across as a personal attack and (I would think) deters people from posting their thoughts/ideas for fear of being openly ridiculed.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: Cameron]
    #8227410 - 04/02/08 03:39 AM (16 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Cameron said:
but it often comes across as a personal attack




Rather, one is receiving a transmission of morse code and confuses the dashes for the dots, then the only one to blame is oneself.

Quote:


and (I would think) deters people from posting their thoughts/ideas for fear of being openly ridiculed.




Rather, people deter themselves from participating due to their own irrational fears. If they cannot emotionally handle their ideas being free to upmost scrutiny, even if someone chooses to unproductively ridicule them, then they don't belong in this forum in the first place. This forum is intended for a specific purpose that is clearly and visibly displayed; it isn't for everyone.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8227485 - 04/02/08 04:52 AM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

I personally don't think its a case of irrational fears or wires getting crossed. I often see posting which shows either mockery or disregard of another posters opinion. I don't think its unreasonable for people to get upset about this, everyone deserves a level of respect even if you disagree with their opinions. But if its acceptable here, then thats just the way it is. But i think we can all agree that its not an intelligent or productive form of arguing.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227488 - 04/02/08 04:55 AM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
I don't think its unreasonable for people to get upset about this, everyone deserves a level of respect even if you disagree with their opinions. 




This isn't a discussion of people; it is a discussion of ideas. Who proposes the idea is of no concern to the discussion. This distinction is made because it is more productive for the discussion of ideas. In the most ideal sense, this is a laboratory in which everyone works together to formulate some form of collective sense of reality. No person deserves a level of respect here because there is no people here. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8227502 - 04/02/08 05:03 AM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

If it was purely ideas there would be no mockery, everyone would be objective. But mockery is an emotional response and emotion is subjective.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227520 - 04/02/08 05:19 AM (16 years, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
If it was purely ideas there would be no mockery




I don't agree; I don't see how you could possibly conclude this. How does ridiculing an idea equate to ridiculing a person? Answer: it doesn't.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8227529 - 04/02/08 05:25 AM (16 years, 3 hours ago)

Because its emotional, and emotions are directed at a personal level, not an intellectual one.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227611 - 04/02/08 06:35 AM (16 years, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Because its emotional, and emotions are directed at a personal level, not an intellectual one.




If I state that "This idea is moronic", could you substantiate that it is an emotional appeal?

I don't think it would be possible to do so, and there clearly is a basis for the statement to be interpreted as being ideological. One simply would have to elaborate on one's criteria for the judgment. I personally do not prefer ridicule because it is usually completely unsubstantiated opinion, not because it is "emotional".

Ridicule of an idea is not directed at a personal level unless it addresses the poster's personal nature or identity. Do you realize the distinction between the statement "This idea is stupid" and "You are stupid"?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8227622 - 04/02/08 06:47 AM (16 years, 2 hours ago)

It depends on your definition of ridicule. I think ridicule is always of a personal nature. It is designed to humiliate. Since it is impossible to humiliate an idea, seeing as it has no self, it is always directed at the person behind the idea.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227637 - 04/02/08 07:06 AM (16 years, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
It depends on your definition of ridicule. I think ridicule is always of a personal nature. It is designed to humiliate. Since it is impossible to humiliate an idea, seeing as it has no self, it is always directed at the person behind the idea.




I think you are selectively narrowing the definition of ridicule in order to slant it towards providing basis for your position, whereas the definitions of the words themselves do not provide for such a conclusion to be made. Let's take a look.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ridicule

Quote:


1. speech or action intended to cause contemptuous laughter at a person or thing; derision.




Quote:

2. to deride; make fun of.




Quote:


Words or actions intended to evoke contemptuous laughter at or feelings toward a person or thing




Quote:

To expose to ridicule; make fun of.




Quote:

1. language or behavior intended to mock or humiliate




I think it is pretty evident that, while ridicule could refer to an effort to humiliate a person, the word encompasses a much broader meaning, and the specific nature of an act of ridicule would be determined by a case-by-case basis. As the ridicule you refer to, humiliation of a person, is forbidden by the rules and any such act is subsequently dealt with, I don't see how this kind of ridicule is evident within this forum, but that's not the point.

At the very least, your statement that ridicule is always of a personal nature and is designed to humiliate is completely false. Your attempt to define ridicule as an act to humiliate a person, coupled with your suggestion that it is impossible to humiliate an idea, in an effort to conclude that all ridicule is of a personal nature, is irrelevant, as not all ridicule, by definition, is that attempt. The dictionary clearly states that ridicule can be directed at a thing (an idea is a thing :wink:) and that ridicule can have motives other than to humiliate.

Understand? :sherlock:


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227649 - 04/02/08 07:13 AM (16 years, 1 hour ago)

Ideas can very well be ridiculed.
If the person behind the idea feels attacked as well, is only a matter of them being unable to make some essential distinctions and control their emotions. And the only ones who are responsible and in control for the way we feel is ourselves.
If I decide to feel offended because someone criticized my beliefs, it only means that I have to works on myself, and not that they have to restrain themselves from applying reason.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8227661 - 04/02/08 07:21 AM (16 years, 1 hour ago)

I don't think its that clear cut. As soon as a person is involved, whether it is a person expressing their art or a person expressing an idea, ridicule can be seen as a personal attack . Because what the person has made or said is an expression of themselves. Thats why normally people are respectful in these situations. They appreciate that people are expressing themselves and that constructive criticism is one thing, but ridicule can be taken personally. Maybe its not always meant to be personal, but very often it is, i think its sensible and respectful to refrain from it entirely.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227672 - 04/02/08 07:30 AM (16 years, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
I don't think its that clear cut. As soon as a person is involved, whether it is a person expressing their art or a person expressing an idea, ridicule can be seen as a personal attack




I can see your refusal to concede my point as a personal attack. Does that make it so? Yes or no?

Quote:


. Because what the person has made or said is an expression of themselves.




And they are an expression of their environment. What's your point? This forum is an exchange of ideas, not people. If people enter into a forum that specifically states the extent to which their ideas will be criticized and hold an irrational attachment to their ideas to the point that they get emotionally upset when those ideas are criticized, regardless of the nature of the criticism, they have only themselves to blame.

Quote:


Thats why normally people are respectful in these situations.




No idea is deserving of respect. Why do you think ideas deserve respect? You seem to think that people expressing an idea deserve respect, but this isn't the case either, but that doesn't matter because personal nature and identity are not discussed in this forum.

Quote:


They appreciate that people are expressing themselves and that constructive criticism is one thing, but ridicule can be taken personally.




Anything can be taken personally. It doesn't mean that criticism or ridicule should not be engaged in.

Quote:


Maybe its not always meant to be personal, but very often it is, i think its sensible and respectful to refrain from it entirely.




You hold a skewed sense of respect in my opinion. A statement like that could be interpreted as personal ridicule, but that's the failure of the interpreter. An unnecessary and irrational sense of restraint in criticism that prevents ideas from being fully scrutinized is counter-productive to the open discussion and exchange of ideas, which is the purpose of this forum. If you feel that it is respectful to refrain from it entirely, then refrain from it entirely, but don't wave about your sense of morals in a forum in which people are actively carrying out the purpose and intention of the forum.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227682 - 04/02/08 07:39 AM (16 years, 1 hour ago)

The cartoon(s) which prompted this thread ridicule and mock many silly ideas. Even though directed towards no specific individual here, some took offense merely because they have adopted some of the silly beliefs presented.

Do you believe that you can lead an offense-free life? The mere fact that you hang out on a website dedicated to an illegal substance would likely offend some of your friends, relatives and co-workers. Is it your responsibility to appease everyone (an impossibility) and walk on eggshells?

Piss-poor ideas should be shredded to bits. This is not the social, let's make friends, forum.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227692 - 04/02/08 07:44 AM (16 years, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
It was poor wording on my behalf. Obviously there's nothing wrong with having a rational mind, and atheists are as creative as anyone else.  I was more commenting on people who ridicule other peoples ideas and beliefs rather than raising there own. I'm all for debate, but it should be done respectfully and constructively. New ideas have a habit of being ridiculed, i don't see any reason for doing this. To me thats a  personal attack which is what i disdain the most in a debate.




Regardless of your obviously absurd sentiment that those who ridicule illogical beliefs are incapable of creation (it's clear that the well-ordered mind that lends itself to the abolition of established fallacies is the same sort of inquiring mind that will create and think outside the fold) -- the point of debate is personal attack. If you read up on the subject you'll find that any discussion falls into two categories:
A) Something that can be proven one way or another. ie, "We perceive that when an apple falls off a tree, it eventually hits the ground" -- This kind of thing can be proven simply by watching a lot of apples falling off trees and therefore one person is right and one wrong, and the debate isn't worth having.
B) Something that can not, due to its intrinsic nature, be proven. ie, something along the lines of whether or not two people view the red of the apple as the same colour. Clearly, there is not absolute way that this debate can be resolved, and the only way to win in such a debate is through clever belittlement and personal attack.

Even so, however, I do not believe rational minds fall into this latter category as their side of the argument is the only observable, provable side and is therefore the correct one in any debate in the traditional sense.


But cool comic! :thumbup:

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8227712 - 04/02/08 07:54 AM (16 years, 1 hour ago)

I think your being hypocritical. You tell me not to wave about my sense of morals. And yet you comment that my sense of respect, which is a moral, is wrong or skewed, basically comparing your own sense of morals to mine. Morals are a philosophical issue anyway, we are allowed to discuss our views on them.

Your first question would only be applicable to this argument if you thought that i had ridiculed your post not just disagreed with it.

"You seem to think that people expressing an idea deserve respect, but this isn't the case either, but that doesn't matter because personal nature and identity are not discussed in this forum."

Could you elaborate on why you believe that people expressing an idea don't deserve respect? Also it seems personal nature and identity are deep philosophical subjects.

"And they are an expression of their environment. What's your point?"

My point is that ridiculing someones self expression is ridiculing there self. It is "self" expression after all. I would ask you to elaborate on the idea that people are an expression of their environment and how it applies to this debate.

People are interacting with each other on this forum. There's always going to be a personal aspect to it, we're not robots. And you just proved it by referring to a personal attribute of mine and saying that it is "skewed".

Edited by DimensionX (04/02/08 08:22 AM)

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: xdzt]
    #8227718 - 04/02/08 07:57 AM (16 years, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

xdzt said:
Regardless of your obviously absurd sentiment that those who ridicule illogical beliefs are incapable of creation (




This was never my sentiment. I just expressed myself badly. Ive already explained it in a later post.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8227726 - 04/02/08 08:11 AM (16 years, 57 minutes ago)

I don't really go in for any of the beliefs in those comics. I just like the idea of objective debate without ridicule or scoffing at ideas. To me that isn't a scientific approach to things. Like if you were writing a paper for university or something you could probably eliminate remarks like that as being frivolous.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8227782 - 04/02/08 08:48 AM (16 years, 19 minutes ago)

Quote:

No person deserves a level of respect here because there is no people here.




:penguindog:

Quote:

In the most ideal sense, this is a laboratory in which everyone works together to formulate some form of collective sense of reality.




Makes sense.  Not.  "Some form of collective sense of reality"?  "Some form" as in "it could be anything"?  "Collective sense of reality?"  Sounds like "we" are almost ready to drink the Kool-Aid.

Reality being subjective is best left to the individual to experience and interpret.  Collective reality is herd mentality which is a dangerous thing for those in and out of the herd.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227902 - 04/02/08 09:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
I think your being hypocritical. You tell me not to wave about my sense of morals. And yet you comment that my sense of respect, which is a moral, is wrong or skewed, basically comparing your own sense of morals to mine. Morals are a philosophical issue anyway, we are allowed to discuss our views on them.




My statement regarding waving around morals didn't effectively represent what I was intending to say. I was simply making the point that I don't find much sense in objecting to an act that is the intention of this forum, especially when there is a forum dedicated to the same topics but a different manner of discussion. Of course, one may feel free to express that objection. It was more referring to the general phenomenon of people objecting to the manner of discussion when their ideas are criticized. I was in a hurry to watch a movie, so I didn't properly express myself. Does that alleviate the perceived hypocrisy? :smile:

Quote:


Your first question would only be applicable to this argument if you thought that i had ridiculed your post not just disagreed with it.




No, it is entirely applicable. Some individuals would interpret disagreement as a personal attack. You didn't answer the question. The point is that an attack is only personal if it addresses an individual's personal nature or identity. Any idea expressed in this forum stands on its own and any association between the idea and the poster presenting it is not up for discussion - only the idea itself.

Quote:


Also it seems personal nature and identity are deep philosophical subjects.




The concept of personal nature and identity is a philosophical subject, but your personal nature and identity is not open for discussion in this forum. Understand the distinction?

Quote:


My point is that ridiculing someones self expression is ridiculing there self.




No it isn't. In this forum, we discuss ideas. Ridicule of an idea is ridicule of an idea. The fact that someone expressed the idea does not excuse it from criticism or ridicule in this forum, nor should it. If I tell you that your car has an ugly paint job, it is not the same as saying that you have an ugly paint job. It is a critique of the car, not you.

Quote:


I would ask you to elaborate on the idea that people are an expression of their environment and how it applies to this debate.




You stated that ridicule of an idea is a personal attack because a person expressed it. In doing so, you extend the identity of an idea beyond the boundaries of the idea itself, linking its identity to the individual who expressed it (my point is that, in this forum, that link doesn't exist, because we only discuss ideas). My statement regarding the environment was demonstrating the folly of this by taking it one step further.

Answer this question: Is ridicule of you a personal attack on the planet Earth? :smirk:

Quote:


People are interacting with each other on this forum. There's always going to be a personal aspect to it, we're not robots.




If we were robots, would the criticism of an idea put forth for open discussion be a personal attack on the robot that expressed it? Why does the phenomenon that expresses an idea have any relevance to the discussion of the idea itself?

Quote:


And you just proved it by referring to a personal attribute of mine and saying that it is "skewed".




No I didn't. I stated that the sense of respect that you hold is skewed. The idea is skewed. Referring to the fact that you hold it is merely a distinction to identify which idea is being discussed. The fact that you hold it is not what is being discussed. Calling the idea skewed has absolutely no commentary on you.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227911 - 04/02/08 09:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
I just like the idea of objective debate without ridicule or scoffing at ideas.




How do you expect to have an objective debate of ideas if you associate any criticism or ridicule (a word that, as we already covered and you did not dispute, does NOT imply a personal attack) as being a criticism or ridicule of the poster who presented it? :wtf:


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8227914 - 04/02/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Piss-poor ideas should be shredded to bits.




No, you can't put ideas through the shredder because the fact that some individual expressed the idea means that they go through the shredder too. :nono:

:rofl2:


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8227922 - 04/02/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
I don't really go in for any of the beliefs in those comics. I just like the idea of objective debate without ridicule or scoffing at ideas. To me that isn't a scientific approach to things. Like if you were writing a paper for university or something you could probably eliminate remarks like that as being frivolous.




Writing a paper is NOT the same has having a debate. Have you ever attended a debate? The entire process is centered around deconstructing and disproving your opponent's ideas. The rules of this forum specificially state that one should not post here if one does not wish their ideas to be "challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported."

Ideas must earn respect here...they are not automatically granted respect. THAT is the central concept of philosophical debate, and any other approach is NOT debating. If posters wish to share and have their ideas automatically respected, they can post them in the Mysticism forum. If anyone in this forum is disrespectful and insulting to another poster, they will be warned and possibly banned.

I think that your objections are more to the nature of debate itself. Debate is argumentative, it is disrespectful of ideas, and it is oppositional. It seems that many of the posters here LIKE all of these qualities, and do not wish our version of debate to be softer and gentler than professional debates.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8227938 - 04/02/08 10:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Makes sense.  Not.  "Some form of collective sense of reality"?  "Some form" as in "it could be anything"?  "Collective sense of reality?"  Sounds like "we" are almost ready to drink the Kool-Aid.
Reality being subjective is best left to the individual to experience and interpret.  Collective reality is herd mentality which is a dangerous thing for those in and out of the herd.




You're being facetious, right? :what:

I don't comprehend how a consensual sense of reality is dangerous. In fact, civilization and the existence of this species is founded squarely on the ability to establish a collective sense of reality. The fact that we are even capable of having this discussion is the result of the foundation of the collective sense of reality.

Tell me: How is the fact that nearly every human being you interact with knows that the Earth revolves around the Sun a dangerous thing? :rofl2:

Quote:


Reality being subjective is best left to the individual to experience and interpret.




Best left? The nature of reality is that every individual experience and interprets reality for themselves. That could never be negated. I don't understand how the act of human beings interacting with each other in an attempt to create an understanding of reality, collectively created (through said interaction), is a negative, dangerous phenomenon. Care to explain?


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: Veritas]
    #8227949 - 04/02/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8230029 - 04/02/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tell me: How is the fact that nearly every human being you interact with knows that the Earth revolves around the Sun a dangerous thing?




It was a dangerous thing 400 years ago when the herd mentality of the Catholic Church decreed that Galileo state that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Well at least the Inquisition acted in "good faith" in prosecuting him to maintain their collective and incorrect view of reality even though wrong. Whew. Only took the Church 359 years to admit that.

Vatican admits Galileo was right
07 November 1992 | Magazine issue 1846
In 1633, the Inquisition of the Roman Catholic Church forced Galileo Galilei, one of the founders of modern science, to recant his theory that the Earth moves around the Sun. Under threat of torture, Galileo - seen above facing his inquisitors - recanted. But as he left the courtroom, he is said to have muttered, 'all the same, it moves'.
Last week, 359 years later, the Church finally agreed. At a ceremony in Rome, before the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Pope John Paul II officially declared that Galileo was right. The formal rehabilitation was based on the findings of a committee of the Academy the Pope set up in 1979, soon after taking office. The committee decided the Inquisition had acted in good faith, but was wrong.
The Inquisition ruled that Galileo could not prove 'beyond doubt' that the Earth orbits the Sun, so they could not reinterpret scriptures implying otherwise.
But the Galileo affair still embarrassed the Church, which now maintains an astronomical observatory at the Pope's summer palace at Castelgandolfo. Father George Coine, who heads the observatory, says the affair was 'tragic, beyond the control of any one party'. It was the height of the Church's battle with Protestantism, says Coine, 'and here was a scientist saying he interpreted scripture better than they did.'
The trials were not a confrontation between science and faith, says Coine, because 'Galileo never presented his science to the Inquisition. Science wasn't even at the trial.
Source: New Scientist


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8230622 - 04/02/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

DimensionX said:
I just like the idea of objective debate without ridicule or scoffing at ideas.




How do you expect to have an objective debate of ideas if you associate any criticism or ridicule (a word that, as we already covered and you did not dispute, does NOT imply a personal attack) as being a criticism or ridicule of the poster who presented it? :wtf:




I never said that i associate any criticism as a personal attack. In fact i think i quite clearly stated that constructive criticism is a good goal. I think ridicule involves the use of emotive language in an attempt to slant the truth. Like your use of "wtf" it is emotive language.

"Emotive language includes evaluative terms, particularly those signaling strong approval or dislike (great, awful), words that signal particular emotional relationships (darling, swine), and words that have generally positive or negative associations in the culture (treasure, hero, cancer, sleaze)."

This ties in with why i believe ridicule does not have a place in debate.  It is a type of fallacious argument. Heres the definition:

Argument By Emotive Language (Appeal To The People):

using emotionally loaded words to sway the audience's sentiments instead of their minds. Many emotions can be useful: anger, spite, condescension, and so on.
For example, argument by condescension: "Support the ERA? Sure, when the women start paying for the drinks! Hah! Hah!"

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8231657 - 04/03/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

"Support the ERA? Sure, when the women start paying for the drinks!"




That is a valid point.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8231670 - 04/03/08 12:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hahahaha i thought someone would appreciate that part.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8233106 - 04/03/08 11:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
It was a dangerous thing 400 years ago when the herd mentality of the Catholic Church decreed that Galileo state that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Well at least the Inquisition acted in "good faith" in prosecuting him to maintain their collective and incorrect view of reality even though wrong. Whew. Only took the Church 359 years to admit that.




This doesn't invalidate anything I've put forth. Discussion is more than one individual interacting to further the understanding of all involved. In order for it to transpire, it is necessitated that there is a consensual understanding. Discussion furthers that consensual understanding, as the result of the interaction is that understanding being developed and propagated. I'd love for you to demonstrate that this is not the case.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8233120 - 04/03/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
This ties in with why i believe ridicule does not have a place in debate. It is a type of fallacious argument.




Did you forget about your contention that all ridicule is personal attacks? We haven't been discussing whether or not ridicule should have a place in debate. We've been discussing your assertion that ridicule and usage of "emotive language" is a personal attack. Do you now realize that the truth of the matter is not the case, or do you still hold this view and simply dodged further discussion of it? Please clarify.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8235289 - 04/03/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I didn't mean to dodge anything. Several posters in this forum have said that ridicule is an accepted part of debate. My last post asserts that it isn't and is seen as a form fallacious argument. Your use of emotive language in your own post was just a good way for me to demonstrate it. You have made a good argument, and i don't think there would any to prove whether the ridicule was directed at the poster or the posters ideas. But part of the tactic of emotive language can be to make the opponent personally look stupid instead of directly targeting their logic and idea's. This is one of the reasons its not generally accepted in debate.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8237115 - 04/04/08 04:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
But part of the tactic of emotive language can be to make the opponent personally look stupid instead of directly targeting their logic and idea's.




Unless it is actually directed at the individual, I don't see how this is anything but an unsubstantiated interpretation.


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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8237498 - 04/04/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If the only argument made against a poster's assertions is "that is dumb," then I would agree with you about it being fallacious.  However, if someone says "that is a dumb idea" and then backs it up by deconstructing and disproving the poster's assertions, THAT is debate.

What you seem to be saying is that all ideas should be treated with equal respect, regardless of the quality of said ideas.  This is antithetical to philosophical debate, and is already guaranteed in the Mysticism forum.  :thumbdown:  If an idea is baseless, it should absolutely be treated with the utmost disrespect and disdain.  If an idea cannot stand on its' own merits, then it should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: Veritas]
    #8239964 - 04/04/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If someone says that is a dumb idea or uses anything which fits the description of strong negetive emotive language, then that part of their debate is fallicious. Any logical points they made still stand, but that dosent change that part of their argument is fallicious. "utmost disrespect and disdain." does not prove anything and is not a logical argument, if you disagree with something, using logic is the only valid way to disprove it.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8240649 - 04/04/08 11:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, logical disputation is the only method which effectively disproves an argument. However, this does not mean that one cannot express a response of disdain and disrespect. So long as this response is not aimed at the poster, but rather at the content of their post, it is well within the realm of debate.

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: Veritas]
    #8240917 - 04/05/08 12:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It happens. But I dont think its considered acceptable.


Description of Appeal to Ridicule
The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument." This line of "reasoning" has the following form:


X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
Therefore claim C is false.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because mocking a claim does not show that it is false. This is especially clear in the following example: "1+1=2! That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!"

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Re: Swami's thoughts on 'getting lucky' [Re: DimensionX]
    #8242679 - 04/05/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Again, you're saying that mockery and ridicule are not arguments.  I never claimed that they were.  However, they are often used during debates as responses prior to commencing one's detailed logical argument against your opponent's RIDICULOUS claims.  :lol:

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