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Offlinesmilieface
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Registered: 03/22/08
Posts: 32
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8193366 - 03/25/08 07:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


As I see the matter, politicians always tend(ed) to separate them from the 'polis', the people, to only be responsible to those, who give them the most money or power.




The people give politicians the most power. As can be witnessed presently, the people decide to give them the power to be corrupt and to pander away. :shrug:




you're both right.But,that will change.Just as soon as we start fighting the war on intelligence in this country.Not that being apathetic means you're not smart..its just a natural reaction to a system so corrupt,as well as how we are indoctrinated.Not to mention you have the right. For those who want to be involved but are frustrated,I like to think we will win this war...

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InvisibleClean
the lense
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Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: smilieface]
    #8193636 - 03/25/08 08:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)


i like oba-a-a-ama

Quote:

If you want to know where the fuck you're going, understanding the past is vital.



quoted for truth

We must understand that what we're taught about this alleged democracy is mostly crock of shit. I'm not just talking about america here... wherever you live it's the same story of a wealthy few attempting to eradicate the former ways of life for the "rest of us".

It is said that people get the government they deserve... but it seems to me that is coming from a viewpoint which ignores the fact that there is a comparatively small segment of the population that "benefits" greatly from the way things are run and have gone to great lengths to ensure that the course is stayed for the most part.

If someone could offer and explanation as to why we deserve to have our lives threatened at every turn unless we bend to the will of some asshole on a power trip then I'd love to hear it.

IMO the elites have seen fit to run things they way they are running things because they know that the rest of us are, for a multitude of reasons, not willing or able to overcome our petty differences in one way or another and take control of our own lives.

The base of resources our ancestors relied on for survival have mostly all been privatized, monopolized, corporatized, federalized and otherwise stolen and re-appropriated into the control of the few who could afford to take them by force.

Now we're told that we have the freedom to choose which of them we want in office to continue this all encompassing re-organization of human affairs to benefit a few at the expense of many. 
Wow. 
That's enough to make ya proud ain't it? :rolleyes:

So I can understand why some are apathetic about all this... because it can be any combination of depressing,  frightening, disheartening, absurd, horrific and dismal when you take off the masks and look it straight in the face. 
I also see it as an opportunity for us to be completely honest with ourselves and radically change the direction we are headed.

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8193707 - 03/25/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:


For all practical purposes, we don't live in a finite system.






I'm really going to need you to back that one up if you expect me to buy it.

For all practical purposes in the 16th century it appeared to John Locke that we didn't live in a finite system, but after hyper-exploiting everything it looks like we're hitting a wall. There are no more vast continents to colonize, fisheries are at very serious risk of collapsing (newfoundland has been destroyed by the loss of the cod fishery), we're hitting peak oil, there are very few patches of intact old growth anywhere in the world... and on and on. So tell me, how is the planet not finite?

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Invisibleappleorange
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Registered: 12/30/07
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Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8193720 - 03/25/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Niam,

I believe Mushman is suggesting that we exploit other planets in the milkyway :wink:

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: appleorange]
    #8193731 - 03/25/08 09:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I'm seriously going to have to read up on Anarchism. The idea that my views may be in line with it, never crossed my mind.

I remember when I was a little boy, my dad took me to Toys R Us because I just saved up a bunch of money to buy a toy or something. After paying for it and leaving, I asked my dad, "Dad, why can't we just make things for eachother? Why do we have to work for them?"

Even as young as 5, on some intuitive level, economics and government always seemed out of place.




Totally, when I was a kid I thought the same way. I remember thinking that when we bought groceries paying was just a fun ritual because the cashier always gave change back. I didn't realize that we were actually losing the money until we didn't get change one day and my mom explained it to me. It was really disappointing.

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OfflineMeatyVitamin
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Registered: 10/28/07
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Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8195052 - 03/26/08 02:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I doubt economics will ever go away, but government might.




As long as there is human interaction there will always be government. Even in the family unit, if the father (or mother) makes the primary decision then they are the government. The form of government might be more of a guardianship rather than a democracy, but it is still an authority over a group of individuals. Many people think that resizing the group of humans removes the political aspect of it, but in fact it just removes the amount of personal sovereignty given up to maintain the system.

In a system of pure anarchy there is a chance you might be murdered in your sleep, so you band together with a few of your friends for mutual protection. This is politics, this is government. In a more complex system, laws and punishments act as your protection, but your decision to partake in this system is no longer voluntary.

Furthermore, to remove government altogether would be renouncing the ideas of ownership and entitlement which would mean that capitalism couldn't function (no property rights). So I doubt an economist could predict much without a stable government regulated currency, or laws protecting consumers and investors. You might propose a barter system, or similar systems operating without the government, but at this point I doubt that is possible.

appleorange,

On a more personal side, I see anarchy as being a greedy ideal. Anarchy implies everyone for themselves, no overarching authority which leaves each individual to their own devices. In a system like this there would be no guaranteed support to those who need it, the crippled, the elderly, the mentally handicapped. I would prefer to give up some of my personal sovereignty to know that someone benefits from my loss. If you didn't know if you were going to be born sick or healthy, crippled or able, talented or stupid, rich or poor, most would rather risk giving up your ability to "make whatever toys you want" or "have absolute freedom" to ensure that they are protected to the extent that they can live a happy life. This is what rights deal with, and rights don't exist without government. Rights are both what you owe to society and what society owes to you.

A system of anarchy, where there is no obligations would only function if every single human being were compassionate to the needs of others, and even then there would be extreme logistical problems sustaining the populations in the world today. Furthermore externalities would run rampant with massive destruction of the environment as the individual cannot and will not be able to see everything on a global, or even regional level. Governments today may not uphold these ideals I have set out to the letter, but they are the necessary institutions if we ever hope to make the world a better place for everyone.


--------------------
I like to keep my work life and my home life seperate. My job doesn't know I have a wife, and my wife doesn't know I have a job.

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: MeatyVitamin]
    #8196102 - 03/26/08 11:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Meaty, you're confusing anarchism with libertarian capitalism. I'd recommend doing some sincere research before conflating objectionable values with a philosophy hell bent against them.

Also, your definition of government is so loose as to be absurd.

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OfflineMeatyVitamin
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Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8196268 - 03/26/08 12:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not confusing it with libertarian capitalism. Most libertarians acknowledge the existence of natural rights which means that things like property, life and happiness would still be acknowledged and respected. The strand of libertarians that deny the existence of rights tend to put more faith in altruism. My problem with anarchy is that without even a very loose set of rules there wouldn't be this baseline protection that they provide.

If you did some "sincere research" you'd find that libertarians still advocate minimal government meaning what I was speaking about was not libertarianism, and the notion of no property rights means it certainly couldn't be capitalism.

My definition of government is an authority (be it legitimate or otherwise) making rules for a particular group of people. It may be a bit broad, but it is hardly absurd.


--------------------
I like to keep my work life and my home life seperate. My job doesn't know I have a wife, and my wife doesn't know I have a job.

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Why Am I Apathetic About Politics? [Re: MeatyVitamin]
    #8196385 - 03/26/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If you really think that anarchism is all about just doing whatever the fuck you want, then you have no idea what you're talking about, and again, research research research!

Anarchism is a form of socialism that is centred on the principles of voluntary association and mutual aid. Your vision of greedy assholes running around assaulting people is ludicrous. Try again. Anarchism is a vision of autonomous decentralized communities that make decisions collectively. Instead of a market economy, perhaps a more localized gift and barter economy?

Do you really believe that anarchists don't recognize natural "rights" to things like life, happiness and personal property? :rolleyes: There is a difference between owning a toothbrush or a pair of jeans and owning the land or the means of production.

Most anarchists accept that within a community there would probably be social 'rules' that are generally accepted, and that any gross violation of another would be unnacceptable. They simply see creating life as the work of the whole community, and see danger in allowing a particular group a monopoly on the use of force.

Your definition of government is far too loose, to the degree that it loses meaning. There is a distinct difference between a family and the ruling body of an entire nation. Part of the difference is the ability of the group member to leave. If I have an abusive father, I can leave town and start fresh somewhere else. If I have an abusive government, I'm fucked. There's no where to go. The scope of the family is much smaller than the scope of the State.

In order that any discussion on the flaws or merits of government be of any value, I think the term needs to be defined a little more tightly. Using anthropology, we can define government as the ruling minority of a society that has a monopoly on the use of coercion/force to maintain social order. This is the sort of definition anarchists tend to use, and it's a much more specific and useful definition for the kind of discussion we're having.

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