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 Rono
DSYSB since '01
 
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
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 Re: iraq  [Re: Lallafa]
#832553 - 08/21/02 08:50 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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 Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
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Re: iraq [Re: Rono]
#832608 - 08/21/02 09:02 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
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Re: iraq [Re: Lallafa]
#832619 - 08/21/02 09:05 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Anonymous
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Re: iraq [Re: Lallafa]
#832623 - 08/21/02 09:07 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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if Nazi Germany was not "Capitalist", then what would you call it?
National Socialist. It's true business were allowed to keep a certain amount of profit (at the discretion of the state), but they were also told what to produce and how much. Hitler was a smarter socialist than Stalin in that he didn't kill (all) the geese that were laying the golden eggs, he merely kept them caged up and producing at his command. Take away the militaristic and racist aspects and Nazi Germany would fit in quite well with modern day socialist Europe and leftist dreams of utopia.
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wingnutx
Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
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Re: iraq [Re: Lallafa]
#833783 - 08/21/02 03:11 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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In reply to:
if Nazi Germany was not "Capitalist", then what would you call it?
NAZI is short for National Socialist. They had some free market, more or less comparable to what Sweden (very pro nazi at the time, btw) has today.
When asked why he did not nationalize everything, Hitler said words to the effect of, "It doesn't matter who technically owns a thing when I can have the owner killed."
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: iraq [Re: Lallafa]
#834501 - 08/21/02 07:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lallafa writes:
you capitalize "Capitalism" and try to make concrete out of what is abstract
Sorry, my mistake. It was unintentional -- just force of habit. But the fact remains that Nazi Germany was nowhere close to being even "small c" capitalist.
...Nazi Germany was a country that operated under the profit system...
All countries, even the USSR and China make "profits". Human existence is impossible without profits. What matters is who controls the "profits" and where they go.
...and capitalist private property.
In Nazi Germany, the property was "private" in name only. In practice every tiny aspect of the German economy was rigidly controlled by the State. I suggest you do some reading.
In all my decades of political debate you are the first person I've ever come across (and this includes dozens of Germans, by the way) to ever claim Nazi Germany was capitalist. If you truly believe Nazi Germany was a capitalist country, it's no wonder you detest what you perceive as "capitalism".
Adolf Hitler was himself a rich man...
I suggest you do some reading. Hitler was an unemployed pauper for years and years after his discharge from the army. He was literally incapable of feeding himself before he came to political power. He sponged off friends and followers in order to stay alive, occasionally selling a painting or two until some modest royalties started trickling in from sales of "Mein Kampf". He was constantly at war with the German tax department, trying desperately to get a break. This is not my opinion, this is a matter of public record. Even when he came to power, he was surprisingly (for a dictator) unconcerned with amassing wealth for himself.
German production was very much done on a for-profit basis, even under the totalitarian fascistic state.
Wrong. Roughly four fifths of the industrial production of Nazi Germany was geared towards producing weaponry, not profits. Do some reading. I suggest you start with William L. Shirer's seminal work "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich".
if Nazi Germany was not "Capitalist", then what would you call it?
What it was. Fascist. Nazi Germany was the ultimate example of a fascist state, outdoing even Italy and Spain.
pinky
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Edited by pinksharkmark (08/21/02 07:54 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: iraq [Re: Lallafa]
#834541 - 08/21/02 08:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lallafa quotes:
"We have no defense treaty relationship with any gulf country. That is clear . . . we have not historically taken a position on border disputes."
and
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)
So, as I said, Hussein thought he could get away with it. How can the quotes you provided be interpreted as "luring" Hussein into invading a sovereign nation?
You do, of course, remember that the coalition to liberate Kuwait was a United Nations coalition, that the resolution to liberate Kuwait was made by the United Nations, that the sanctions imposed on Iraq are United Nations sanctions, and the inspectors expelled by Hussein were United Nations inspectors.
The fact that United States representatives told Hussein they had no existing treaties with Kuwait to automatically come to their aid becomes moot in light of the above facts, doesn't it? How many (if any) of the other member nations of the coalition had pre-existing treaties with Kuwait?
pinky
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