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Offlinehottamali
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Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control
    #8188207 - 03/24/08 05:19 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

My friend birthed a few brf cakes a few days ago and they are sitting in his FC. He wanted to try his luck at casing a few of them as well. He read some good things on MGMC and bought a bag.

1. Should he pc/sterilize or pasteurize MGMC or use it straight from the bag?


Thanks

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Offlineweretheshit
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: hottamali]
    #8188228 - 03/24/08 05:24 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

although you'd probably be good without, Id suggest sterilizing.

I have had success with the MGMC

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Offlinehottamali
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: weretheshit]
    #8188265 - 03/24/08 05:34 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

how much do you cover the cakes with the casing so that he can figure out how much he will need to PC and should he break the cakes up a little or leave whole. He has read that crumbling it will hurt the mycelium short term.

Did you put down any perlite before hand?

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Offlinefuzion1
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: hottamali]
    #8188329 - 03/24/08 05:51 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

microwave it for 5 minutes, then stir and microwave another 5. MGMC already has perlite in it. You don't need to add any.

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Offlinehottamali
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: fuzion1]
    #8188366 - 03/24/08 06:01 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

That sounds better than pcing since his pc only holds 6 qt jars. Could he stick the MGMC in the oven for say 30 minutes at 400 degrees and how much should he cover the cakes?

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Offlineweretheshit
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: hottamali]
    #8188387 - 03/24/08 06:08 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

i think 400 is a little high if you go that route... you might burn something.

The microwave (fractional sterilization) works good for casing.

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OfflineDr. Penguin
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: fuzion1]
    #8188388 - 03/24/08 06:08 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Do not sterilize your casing mix. Sterilization takes away some of the natural resistance to contamination that the beneficial bacteria provide your casing layer. Pasteurize at 140F-160F for an hour.

I like to fill quart jars about 3/4 full, and cover with foil. Then fill a pot with water 2/3 up the jars, stick a thermometer through the foil into the MGMC. Heat on high until the soil reaches ~150F, then shut it off. The soil will temp will climb up to ~160F and will remain hot for an hour+.


--------------------
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Offlinehottamali
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #8188408 - 03/24/08 06:13 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

This probably sounds stupid, but how far down should he stick the thermometer? In the middle or towards the bottom where it will be hotter from the heat source?

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Offlinecokaznrebel
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: hottamali]
    #8188717 - 03/24/08 07:17 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

What Doc said,

Dont sterilize! Your asking for contaminates.

By Pasteurizing you are able to destroy the mold spores while still keeping some bacteria they help fight off other molds from taking hold.

Do a search! There are quite a few teks that will show you how to properly pasteurize your substrate/casing layer.

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Offlineweretheshit
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: cokaznrebel]
    #8188757 - 03/24/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

i dunno if theres any beneficial bacteria in a bag of MGMC... maybe in manure... or in composts.

Or even in your mgmc if you left a bag outside for 3 weeks.

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Offlinecokaznrebel
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: weretheshit]
    #8188808 - 03/24/08 07:31 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

weretheshit said:
i dunno if theres any beneficial bacteria in a bag of MGMC... maybe in manure... or in composts.

Or even in your mgmc if you left a bag outside for 3 weeks.




So are you saying that its completly sterile right out of the bag?

Thier are going to be microrganisms in there regardless.

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Offlineweretheshit
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: cokaznrebel]
    #8188825 - 03/24/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

no its probably not sterile..

and there will be microorganisms...

I guess im saying, that ive tried both, with that exact mix, and never noticed a difference either way. and ive heard the same from others.

Ive also heard of people composting their casings.

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OfflineDr. Penguin
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: weretheshit]
    #8190949 - 03/25/08 10:19 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Bacteria is everywhere. That bag of MGMC has it, its in your food, in your cloths, on your body, everywhere. And as long as it's not running rampant, for the most part it is benign or even helpful.

It is common practice to pasteurize a casing but I have never used MGMC so I cannot say with experience that it is better to pasteurize  as opposed to sterilize, but I do know that it is damn easy to pasteurize and not quite as easy to sterilize. :grin: And if it even holds a CHANCE to help, why not do yourself the favor?

In regards to the depth of the thermometer. I put mine deep enough that the middle of the probe is about into the middle of the substrate. For my thermometer this results in about 1" remaining above the foil.

Good luck!


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Offlinebagsofun
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #8191106 - 03/25/08 11:17 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

What I do is mix my MGMC and other ingred. to the ratio I want to use, add water till at the proper moisture level, then microwave in a plastic container loosely covered for 5 minutes. I stir it up with a sterile spoon, then microwave for another 10 minutes. It'll take at least 20 minutes to cool, but there you have it.

*Mix
*Nuke for 5 min
*Stir
*Nuke for 10 min
*Let cool, and enjoy!

Done this a dozen times and never had to deal with contams from the casing layer. I don't care what the best method in the world is, this is what works for me.


--------------------
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #8191168 - 03/25/08 11:45 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Dr. Penguin said:
Do not sterilize your casing mix. Sterilization takes away some of the natural resistance to contamination that the beneficial bacteria provide your casing layer. Pasteurize at 140F-160F for an hour.




in the case where a mushroom needs this things to initiate
pinning I'd agree, in the case of cubensis mushrooms it's not
necessary, sterilization is a better option especialy when we're
refering to something that should have no nutritional value like
a casing layer, with bulk substrates like horse poo, pasteurize


Quote:

fuzion1 said:
MGMC already has perlite in it.





it's vermiculite and sphagnum/peat moss, it shouldnt have and doesnt need perlite

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: bagsofun]
    #8191175 - 03/25/08 11:47 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

i don't trust this talk of microwaving. i know folk have used it with success but a PC is the way to go with pastuerizing and sterilizing.

my martian uses MGMC, pastuerized of course, with great success. it is close to pH neutral and is nice and airy. open your valve on your pc and once steam can be seen venting, time for five minutes then turn heat off.

the martian friend has gotten several flushes and no contams this way.


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference.-Bill Hicks-

by the way, everything i write is for entertainment purposes and is purely fictional. do not construe these written words with the author having any knowledge of actual persons, places, events, or actions.

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: skattman1982]
    #8191197 - 03/25/08 11:54 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

pasteurizing is bringing the temp to 170F and holding it, what you're doing is a short sterilization run

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8191215 - 03/25/08 12:01 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
pasteurizing is bringing the temp to 170F and holding it, what you're doing is a short sterilization run




as per RR to pastuerize. if his information is wrong then i dont' want to be right.


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference.-Bill Hicks-

by the way, everything i write is for entertainment purposes and is purely fictional. do not construe these written words with the author having any knowledge of actual persons, places, events, or actions.

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Invisiblemyelination
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8191217 - 03/25/08 12:01 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

fuzion1 said:
MGMC already has perlite in it.





it's vermiculite and sphagnum/peat moss, it shouldnt have and doesnt need perlite




my bag of MGMC says perlite and not vermiculite. i think you may be thinking of jiffy mix.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: skattman1982]
    #8191219 - 03/25/08 12:02 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

did you check the temp or pressure the PC reaches in that 5 minutes?

at 5psi it's reached 228F

Edited by Prisoner#1 (03/25/08 12:03 PM)

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: myelination]
    #8191226 - 03/25/08 12:04 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

myelination said:
i think you may be thinking of jiffy mix.





I think you're right

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Offlineskattman1982
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8191239 - 03/25/08 12:10 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

at 5psi it's reached 228F




which is why the vent is left open. it is IMO a more controlled steam pastuerization than using a pot alone.


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference.-Bill Hicks-

by the way, everything i write is for entertainment purposes and is purely fictional. do not construe these written words with the author having any knowledge of actual persons, places, events, or actions.

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: skattman1982]
    #8191382 - 03/25/08 12:56 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Prisoner I know you have quite a bit of experience here but isn't sterilization just asking for contamination? All it would take would be one nutritious piece of anything in the casing layer to allow molds to get a foothold. Even the most non-nutritious casing mix still has enough nutrients to harbor molds and bacteria. I am a big fan of letting the microorganisms fight off contamination for me.

I would love to see a side by side run of isolates, one cased with a sterile mix and one with a pasteurized mix. Being that pasteurization is much easier (imo), I would need to see quite a boost in casing colonization times or final weight to justify this extra work.


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8191449 - 03/25/08 01:14 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)


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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #8191599 - 03/25/08 01:55 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Dr. Penguin said:
I am a big fan of letting the microorganisms fight off contamination for me.





how much do you think is gonna germinate in something made
with a stone and something with a pH of 5, it's not much risk
either way, sterilization tends to be much easier than proper
pasteurization, the acidity will fight off most contaminants

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8191607 - 03/25/08 01:58 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

:smirk:



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OfflineDr. Penguin
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8193735 - 03/25/08 09:10 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Most casing mixes contain sphagnum peat moss which is purely organic, and while it doesn't contain much nutritional value, it is still edible by many bacteria and fungi.

Now about sterilization, here I quote from the mushroom cultivator chapter 8 (reasons to use a casing layer):
Quote:

4. To support the growth of fructification enhancing microorganisms.
Many ecological factors influence the formation of mushroom primordia. One of these factors is the action of select groups of microorganisms present in the casing. A casing prepared with the correct materials and managed according to the guidelines outlined in this chapter supports the growth of beneficial microflora.



and later in the same chapter, (features of a good casing layer):
Quote:

3. Microflora: Recent studies have demonstrated the importance of beneificial bacteria in the casing layer. High levels of bacteria such as Pseudomonas putida result in increased primordia formation, earlier cropping and higher yields. During the casing colonization period these benificial bacteria are stimulated by the metabolic gases that build up in the substrate and diffuse through the casing. In fact, dense casing layer and deep casing layers generally yield more mushrooms because they allow slow diffusion. It is desirable therefore to build up carbon dioxide and other gases prior to primordia formation. (For futher discussion on the influence of bacteria on primordia formation, see Appendix II.)
The selection of specific microbial groups by mycelial metabolites is an excellent example of symbiosis. These same bacteria give the casing a natural resistance to competitors. In this respect, a sterilized casing lacks beneficial microorganisms and has little resistance to contaminants.




Now, moving on to your suggestion of ph 5 for the casing layer. Everything I have ever heard about P. Cubensis says to keep the ph of the casing around 7. I had to go look this up. According to the mushroom cultivator chapter XI page 198, (On the optimal growth parameters of P. Cubensis):
Quote:

The casing should be balanced to an initial pH of
6.8-7.2.




I don't know about you but I hold ALOT of stock in anything Stamets says, and this is all straight from him...


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #8193762 - 03/25/08 09:15 PM (16 years, 7 days ago)

Psilocbe Cubensis will tollerate a higher pH. The reason we make the ph higher in the casing layer is to kill contaminated spores that may have landed on it ON command. They won't last on an acidic pH.

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8195085 - 03/26/08 02:24 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

First things first, PH ranges from 0-14.
PH < 7 = Acid
PH > 7 = Base
(Basic chem (no pun intended))

P. Cubensis can tolerate a wide range of PH, I agree. You keep saying high PH is good and great, then you mention that you think a high PH is acidic...

Now, why does every casing tek recommend adding either hydrated lime or oyster shell flour when both of them will raise the PH of the mix? (make it more basic)

Secondly high nor low PH (within growth parameters of P. Cubensis) will kill spores. A change in PH will inhibit their growth yes, but not eradicate them completely.

Thirdly, why the hell would you want to lower the PH? Mycelium's consumption of the media will do that for you if left unchecked.


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Offlineweretheshit
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Dr. Penguin]
    #8195404 - 03/26/08 06:11 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

ph is adjusted because common contaminants such as green mold favor more acidic casing layers.

but if you can maintain sitting a little over 7.. Your casing will go longer before contam.

hydrated lime is a short term buffer that will keep your pH up for the first few weeks. Then the oyster shell, which is a long term buffer, will keep it up throughout the later flushes.

We use both of those along with gypsum in our casings.

Edited by weretheshit (03/26/08 06:16 AM)

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: weretheshit]
    #8195416 - 03/26/08 06:17 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I completely agree with weretheshit. This is the school of thought I come from in the casing department.


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OfflineMepher
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8199888 - 03/27/08 01:45 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I think some products like MGMC and Jiffy Mix might vary depending on your location, not sure though. In any case, I'd pasteurize.

Quote:

as per RR to pastuerize. if his information is wrong then i dont' want to be right.



:thumbup:

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Offlineshevanel
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: Mepher]
    #8199926 - 03/27/08 02:23 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I used MGMC as a casing layer for the second flush on the grow in my sig. I'm not too thrilled, but then again Its not over yet.

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Offlinethepaintingaccid
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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: shevanel]
    #8200004 - 03/27/08 03:24 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I've tried it as a casing layer and was contaminated with the most trich i've ever seen. Pasteurized at 170 for an hour. Great for plants not mushrooms

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Re: Question on Miracle Grow Moisture Control [Re: bagsofun]
    #8200113 - 03/27/08 05:30 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

bagsofun said:
What I do is mix my MGMC and other ingred. to the ratio I want to use, add water till at the proper moisture level, then microwave in a plastic container loosely covered for 5 minutes. I stir it up with a sterile spoon, then microwave for another 10 minutes. It'll take at least 20 minutes to cool, but there you have it.

*Mix
*Nuke for 5 min
*Stir
*Nuke for 10 min
*Let cool, and enjoy!

Done this a dozen times and never had to deal with contams from the casing layer. I don't care what the best method in the world is, this is what works for me.




This is exactly what I do as well. Only 5 minutes, 5 minutes, and 5 minutes. Stirring between each microwaving. Worked great for me and never had any problems.

MGMC is a great casing mixture for people who are just starting to experiment with casings.

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