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Offlinenotme
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Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent
    #8101492 - 03/04/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My personal hunt for the evolutionary basis for psilocybins existence has recently led me down a path that I cannot find discussed anywhere. An entomopathogenic fungus is a fungus that can act as a parasite of insects and kills or seriously disables them. A well-supported hypothesis is that psilocybin is a way of protection from insects who wish to feed on the fungi. What I cannot find discussed is the possibility of the psilocybin being a way for the fungi to maximize reproduction by somehow modifying an insects behavior.

If the alkaloids were synthesized by the fungus to protect the fungus from feeding insects i would predict the (psilocybin producing) fungus fruit-body to be morphologically different from other (normal) fungus, but to my knowledge this is not the case at all. The observation that the fruit-bodys of the two types of fungus are generally similar could also support my hypothesis that the fungus profit from insects feeding on them. Insects in general do use serotonin as a neurotransmitter.

Neurophilosophy - brainwashed by a parasite

This link is to an article on a specific fungi that modifies an ants behavior to maximize its own reproductive contribution.

What I am proposing is not simply that a feeding insect's behavior is modified after feeding on the mushroom. It would be hard to imagine how this might give the mushroom an evolutionary edge. What to me is more likely is that spores germinate the insides of the insects (by feeding or trake-system) and as mycelium grows inside the insect, the active compounds in the mycelium modify the insects behavior. This would mean that the existence of the active compound serves a purpose ONLY in the mycelium, and its existence in the fruit bodys is simply a by-product.


Due to the obvious problems in doing experiments on such a hypothesis I have left the comfortable shadows of the lurker in search of input from your creative minds. Any input is appreciated!


Edited by notme (03/26/08 10:12 AM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: notme]
    #8104524 - 03/05/08 01:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> A well-supported hypothesis is that psilocybin is a way of protection from insects who wish to feed on the fungi.

I have yet to see any empirical data supporting this theory.

My opinion is that it's just another cock and bull theory with no basis in fact. Users here have posted a fair number of pictures of psilocybe species that are all chewed up by insects. The topic of slug control has also come up a fair number of times in relation to reducing slug problems in outdoor patches.

First it needs to be shown that psilocin has any effect on insects, then it needs to be shown that the effect is detrimental, and then it needs to be shown that it actually causes insects to avoid consuming psilocybian species of mushrooms.

It would be a rather simple experiment.

I don't think insects are detrimental to mushroom reproduction. Insects would seem to only help spread spores. Once a fruit body forms it's purpose is more or less complete. Even chewed up fruits will end up producing spores in unconsumed parts and any spores consumed will probably make it through an insect's digestive system just fine.

Your theory is much better IMO. If psilocin did cause insects to behave erratically or kill/knock them out that would only serve to benefit the mushroom. A properly operating insect would probably proceed to move on to other areas of food which would already be well colonized by other organisms. An erratically flying insect or one that dropped dead mid-flight would provide a much better chance of spreading the spores to fertile ground.

Welcome to the shroomery BTW. +5 to get you started and for not making a retarded first post!


-FF


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: fastfred]
    #8105580 - 03/05/08 10:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Agreed. I've seen many insects eating psilocybe mushrooms. The active ingredient is there because it's there. We might as well be arguing the evolutionary benefit of why mushrooms contain calcium.
RR


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OfflineMycoAu
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8105928 - 03/05/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thank goodness I'm not the only one out there that believes what RR stated above. I'm not much of one to get into those arguements, for obvious reasons, but it is nice to know somebody agrees with my opinions on things.


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Offlinenotme
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8106086 - 03/05/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The active ingredient is there because it's there. We might as well be arguing the evolutionary benefit of why mushrooms contain calcium.




I might be misunderstanding this, but are you saying you think the active ingredient serves no evolutionary purpose and never has? If so, millions of years of evolutionary arms-race would surely have eliminated this "genetic anomaly" and the energy expense it is to the fungi if there was no reproductive edge to it.



There is very little (available) data out there on how serotonin (and thus, psilocin\psilocybin) affects insect behavior. I have found a few studies on serotonin in drosophila (fruit flies) that conclude serotonin's role is similar to that in mammals, but that hardly helps me.


Edited by notme (03/26/08 10:13 AM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: notme]
    #8106454 - 03/05/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Psilocybin and psilocyn could be an exaptation/metabolic by-product.


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Offlinenotme
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8115180 - 03/07/08 08:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Psilocybin and psilocyn could be an exaptation/metabolic by-product.




Exaptation - this really doesn't explain anything. If the production of the active compound was initially designed for some other purpose, then it's unchanged existence must mean that it still serves a purpose. If not the genes would long ago have been scrambled by random mutations. Also the time and energy expense it is to the fungi to be procucing the enzymes in question would long ago have been eliminated by natural selection (if it gave no reproductive edge).

Metabolic by-product - The only way i could imagine this to be true is with enzymes that are produced for another purpose incidentally end up also modifying tryptofan into the psilocyn\psilocybin. The probability of this happening for ONE enzyme is incredibly small. Now bare in mind that the synthesis of the active compounds need several enzymes. I could throw out some numbers to calculate the probability of this happening, but in the end it doesn't really matter which numbers i use - it ends up to be a incredibly small probabilty either way. This is due to the natural specificity of enzymes and the number of enzymes needed.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: notme]
    #8115320 - 03/07/08 09:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

All you're doing is speculation, just like thousands who have come before you. Read and search the related posts below. Every new grower wonders about these questions. However, you might as well be speculating why trees have bark and vertical trunks. It's just the way things are. Learn everything you can about the mycelium, but don't waste time on the unanswerable questions. They're like trying to prove the evolutionary value of 'god'.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Offlinenotme
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8115395 - 03/07/08 09:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Obviously it's all speculation. If my theory was scientific fact you would read it on the front page of Nature magazine, not on some obscure forum.

I decided to post my viewpoints here because my line of thought is stuck on the matter and I was seeking new impulses. I have read a lot of the information available on the matter both here and elsewhere. My thread was never intended to become a discussion on the "how did psilocybin come to be?" matter. I responded to the feedback i got here because I felt it was appropriate.

It's quite obvious that your personal interest in these scientific (or, closely philosophical) questions is very limited, but you should not be discouraging everyone else from having these thoughts because of it. The same way I choose to use brainpower and personal time on these "unanswerable" questions is exactly the same way every scientific advance you ever enjoyed came to be.


Edited by notme (03/07/08 09:57 AM)


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OfflineThe shroomy 1
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: notme]
    #8115495 - 03/07/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I wonder what this thread would have been like if it was not viewed from a "Hard" scientific view point.  What if it was taken from an anthropological point of view.  Better yet, what would this thread be like if William Blake, Aldous Huxley, Carlos Castaneda,and Terrence McKenna where posting along with the rest of us.

That make for some interesting reading and posting.  :bowdown:


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AMU Q&A thread.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: The shroomy 1]
    #8115918 - 03/07/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Wait. I've long been interested in these things and have spent years discussing them. My point is to search what others have found/not found and posted, and then take it from there. What you don't know is that this thread gets repeated at least once a month, so we've all been thinking about this subject repeatedly over the years. It isn't that your mind is simply more 'inquiring' and this is the first time it's come up.

The evolutionary purpose of psilocybin has been debated here since the site opened. A good start is the 20 page thread linked below, Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: notme]
    #8116024 - 03/07/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



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OfflineMcNewbie
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8149784 - 03/15/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

could it be that a colony of mushrooms developed a genetic mutation some tens of thousands of years ago that caused them to produce tryptamines as a by-product of metabolism, so early humans ate these mushrooms, enjoyed the effects, and took steps to encourage the spread of these mushrooms?


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Offlineshoeareyou
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: McNewbie]
    #8178944 - 03/22/08 07:44 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

To be honest I don't see existance of neurotransmitters in non-mammal species as such a big deal.

Have you any idea how big the kingdom of life IS?!

Have you any idea how small and simmelar most chemicals are?

If the gene which codes for this chemical exists in some lower life form eons ago in the evolutionary chain does it not make sense that some other kind of organism would use the same gene in a different way? to code for something else?

What biological effect does the few percentage of humans who recreationally eat these thigns actually have on evolution? im willing to bet it has remarkably few. If I had to take a stand against mckenna's monkey-mushroom theory that is.

If you are a fellow beleiver and you beleive that god is in everything then there isn't any need to question this, however if you are not a beleiver I would draw a parallel to 'whats the chances you find a few lego bricks stuck together in your entire lego box?' pretty high I'd say!

And before somone shouts 'empirical!' at me, yes there ARE other examples of this in nature. For example, Bannanas give off Ethyne which causes other fruits to ripen. It also causes various seeds and seedlings to turn female.

Neurotransmitters such as Seretonin, Dopamine and Acetycholine are extremely ancient; and the molecular design themselves (being stable and being open to biological manipulation) are even more ancient.

So to me, it is no surprise that some shared peices of biological machinery exist from different portions of the giant kingdom of life.

we are all one!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Psilocybin as an entomopathogenic agent [Re: shoeareyou]
    #8185757 - 03/24/08 12:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> To be honest I don't see existence of neurotransmitters in non-mammal species as such a big deal.

One problem with that. You need to have neurons before you can have neurotransmitters. LOL


-FF


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