Home | Community | Message Board

Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Boomr Bag, Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals, CBD Edibles   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid*
    #817118 - 08/14/02 10:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I've searched and can't seem to find it. Gartz did some experiments with cubensis, using a hormone to increase growth rates and sizes. The chemical is found in many organic sources, rape seed pollen and green beans being the most memorable in my mind. The picture I remember seeing which accompanied the research was of a huge set of fruits in the bottom of an erlenmyer flask.

Can anybody point me to more information on this subject, and has anyone used green beans as a substrate yet?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (08/15/02 02:19 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinebluepoo
journeyman
Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 83
Loc: europe
Last seen: 19 years, 18 days
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #817528 - 08/15/02 11:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

if you named the hormone i coued help i think it was... triptamin that bost potence
you wont get that without a very good reson posible precurser to various drugs
its worth expermiting with simler chemicals
triptitophan "optimax"
melitonen
to see if the mushroom can convrt them to psilobin
all that stuff is prescrition only were im from but not in the us i think


--------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
the above is what the litel leprecans told me to say and should be regarded as such
-----------------------------------------------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinecomario
amateur
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 71
Loc: U.S.A. (N.E.) & South Europe
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #817715 - 08/15/02 12:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Stamets (PMOTW, page39) only says that in the Gartz experiments potency was increased by the addition of tryptamines to the substrate. that's all i could find now.


--------------------
x


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: comario]
    #817985 - 08/15/02 01:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Nope, not beating the dead tryptamine horse again.

This is a specific chemical, of which many similar chemicals are suspected of being active. Starts with a b I think maybe. Been discussed thouroughly in theoretical terms several places, here, donkey, probably forrest floor as well. Seen a link to a chart listing the organic sources, maybe as many as 30, the specific compound they contained and their potencies. Rape seed POLLEN was the most active with the most promising compound, and I believe was the source that Gartz used. Green beans seemed a good thing to investigate based on the chart, although it had a smorgasborg of the interesting compounds not just the one that Gartz used.

The compound didn't have anything to do with potency. It was a growth enhancer. Size and speed of growth are the factors, not alkoloid production.

Does that jog anyones memory?
MJ, I think we've discussed this in the past, any ideas?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818040 - 08/15/02 02:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Still searching, but I stumbled across this reference:
In reply to:

Gartz, J. et al. "Growth-promoting effect of a brassinosteroid in mycelial cultures of the fungus Psilocybe cubensis." Die NaturwiBenschaften 77: 388-389 (1990).


(emphasis added)
now my search is a little more targeted. At least I figured out the key word I'm looking for.
Anybody done any research on brassinosteroid lately? I'll update the subject of the post.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAnnoA
Experimenter
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/18/99
Posts: 24,143
Loc: my room
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818060 - 08/15/02 02:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAnnoA
Experimenter
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/18/99
Posts: 24,143
Loc: my room
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818078 - 08/15/02 02:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

>Gartz, J. et al. "Growth-promoting effect of a brassinosteroid in mycelial cultures of the
>fungus Psilocybe cubensis." Die NaturwiBenschaften 77: 388-389 (1990).

I can get you this article if you want...

http://magnum.bibvb.ac.at/ALEPH/GNKQHY81JBX7LE7T9BXRRN5KCUL85J2RGGKTNT4TBMXSYJ3NUE-07013/direct-doc/ACC01-000498114-999-SYSNO


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: Anno]
    #818089 - 08/15/02 02:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sweet Anno. I'd love to have the article, although I'm not sure about that link you posted. Dumb americans can only read one language you know (and not to well at that...). How can I get it?

BTW, here's the plant sources chart
http://members.tripod.com/~mzullo/sourcebrassino.htm


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818251 - 08/15/02 03:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm still sorting out all the scientific names of the plants on that list, but one I recognized imediately. Cannibis Sativa contains the compounds castasterone and teasterone. Not that I'd waste nugs in a substrate, I think a bean or something would be much better, just found it interesting.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAnnoA
Experimenter
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/18/99
Posts: 24,143
Loc: my room
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818286 - 08/15/02 04:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

>How can I get it?

Well, I can order it at our university?s library.
Should have it by monday or so.


Edited by Anno (08/15/02 04:42 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: Anno]
    #818464 - 08/15/02 05:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibleshroomerylurker
lurker
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 408
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* *DELETED* [Re: mycofile]
    #818528 - 08/15/02 06:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by shroomerylurker


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #819561 - 08/16/02 07:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sweet! Thanks Anno.

Now for the chemists. Are these compounds stable when pressure sterilized? Brassinolide, Castasterone, 6-Deoxocastasterone, Teasterone 3-laurate, and Tamosterone sulfate seem to be the major compounds. Which if any or all of these can stand up to the PC?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycophreak
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 50
Loc: Europe
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #822473 - 08/17/02 12:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A useful brassinosteroid enriched medium contains 10 percent bee pollen, according to

http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/gregory/1042/index.html

To me the most interesting part of the brassinosteroid story for psilocybian cultivation is that Gartz doesn't mention about it in his patented substrate (No. 88-09773, Akad. Wiss. DDR). With that he (attempted to) patent a substrate of just brown rice.

So I think that the brassinosteroid ingredient just was not cost effective. It seems to accelerate mycelial growth / shorten colonization time but does not improve the yield of alkaloids substantially

I have performed a few tests myself too. My conclusion is that bee pollen is nice to have by hand in the case you try a new experimental fungus which grows too slow. But for cubensis it has no advantage.

So far each and every addition to the basic PF Substrate formula (brown rice, vermiculite, water) is erased by Ockham's razor.

The substrate becomes more difficult to prepare & more expensive, without enough compensation in terms of amounts of alkaloids/doses/spores produced per unit of time.

My guess is that brassinosteroid addition to cubie substrate goes the way of methionine + tryptamine hcl and the dodo

Moist brown rice substrate always wins because it cannot be simplfied further (and is cheaply&easily available all over the planet). And yes, brown rice contains brassinosteroids too!

Over the years my rule of thumb has become to distrust every new substrate ingredi?nt or technique which does not promise to solve an existing problem in the proven methods which I already use. For cubensis that is the PF TEK only. There are just two aspects of this technique of which I hope somebody ever comes up with a simplification, but I do not think it can be done: I wish that there was a way to use BRF without steam sterilization (i.e. cold) and I wish there was a subsitute for vermiculite, which can be hard to get in some places.


So: IF A NEW METHOD/SUBSTRATE RECIPE DOES NO SOLVE AN EXISTING PROBLEM THEN YOU PROBABLY DO NOT NEED IT. ESPECIALLY IF IT COMPLICATES YOUR EXISTING CULTIVATION ROUTINE, MAKES IT MORE EXPENSIVE OR USES LESS COMMONLY AVAILABLE UTENSILS OR - SUBSTRATE INGREDIENTS.

With the PF TEK for cubensis it takes just a few weeks from inoculation to harvest, the shortest time span of any psilocybian, so that time span is not a problem. Potency is not a problem too, nor is the biological efficiency (harvest potential per amount of substrate). The method is totally written for kitchen utensils so I do not expect any improvement on that frontier either.

Gartz' ultimate simplification idea was to mix cubensis spores or mycelium in a testtube with a ml of water, to which was added a source of energy (maltose), a source of psilly molecule skeleton (tryptamine), a source of methyl groups (methionine) and a source of phosphate. The idea was to biosynthesize a relatively large amount of psilly in a pure form in just a few days.

Unfortunately, so far this approach doesn't work properly (not in my attempts anyway - the mycelium died at the moment it met a high concentration of methionine).

If any of you know a way to make this approach work you can disturb me in the middle of having sexual intercourse.

But until that - I stick with the PF TEK.

Yachaj



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleAlkaloids
3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine
Male

Registered: 11/16/98
Posts: 743
Loc: pubis mons
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #823109 - 08/17/02 09:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I don't have my references available, but I would hazard to say that none of those could probably withstand autoclaving. Most hormones are relatively delicate, so these probably can't handle the heat. If I can find specific temps I will go ahead and post them though.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycophreak]
    #824262 - 08/17/02 07:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

ALL HAIL THE PF TEK.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAnnoA
Experimenter
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/18/99
Posts: 24,143
Loc: my room
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile] * 1
    #827020 - 08/19/02 01:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycophreak]
    #827514 - 08/19/02 08:46 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Anno, thanks for the paper.

Yacha, thanks for the link. And thank you for pointing me to the PF tek. I may have to try that sometime. I think you are right, PF is the only way to go, we might as well close the advanced cult. forum so that more people don't get sidetracked from it.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycophreak]
    #832222 - 08/21/02 08:11 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yacha, where did you get bee pollen from? Perhaps something was lost in the translation from german, but what I read said various pollens I believe, not bee pollen. Are you just assuming that bee pollen will contain some useful pollens, or do you have a reference to bee pollen containing brassinosteroids.

The paper you gave the link for says that pollen at 2% and 10% of the substrate showed strong increases in mycelial growth. (in the supplies section he simply says that the pollen was obtained from health food stores as mixed pollens or something).

Also, why dismis the findings of dramatically increased growth? Gartz study showed fruits at 3 weeks vs. the control which fruited at 5 weeks. He also shows dramatic increase in yield, by about a third. Jenson didn't give details, but said growth increase was strong. I fail to see how that can be compared to tryptamine or dodos. Sounds more like the effects of incubation, which certainly hasn't gone the way of the dodo. And Gartz findings on increased yield seem extremely interesting. At least to me....


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHippie3
mycotopiate
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/07/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Anno]
    #3057127 - 08/27/04 09:35 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleBolwarra
Stranger

Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 247
Loc: Australia
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Hippie3]
    #3057151 - 08/27/04 09:57 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

QUOTE: Hippie3 has this doc been moved or ?
Looks like, Anno posted that url over 2 years ago.

Here's another link to the same paper.
--> http://annonymer.members.easyspace.com/G...be_cubensis.pdf

Currently working anyway.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #3057454 - 08/27/04 11:54 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I am curious if anyone has found a natural source that meets these two criteria yet:

1. Brassinosteroids are in a concentration high enough to be beneficial
2. The source is cost effective


I remember reading about this a long time ago, but the main downfall was the price. When I searched I think the cheapest was $200+ a gram. A bit too expensive to experiment with in my lab. And the natural sources that were listed then had concentrations too low to be of use (I think rape seed pollen was one of them)...

Any new developments in this area?


--------------------
To give is to live...



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: ATWAR]
    #3141656 - 09/16/04 01:06 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Bee pollen does, in my experience, have a positive effect on the speed of colonization. Bee pollen granules (at a rate of about a cup per ten pounds dry substrate) mixed with poo resulted in a much more rhizomorphic growth pattern than normal. Mycellium rhizomorphs rose straight up off the surface, prior to the casing, to a height of about 1/2 inch in some places! Since I don't bother with clones, my observations are not particularly scientific, but considering bee pollen granules run about $10 a pound online, it's not really a big deal to add it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSpudz76
Got mycelium on the brain...
Male

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 391
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3141947 - 09/16/04 02:19 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Also found isolated brassinolide source.

here


--------------------
Anywhere in this posting where I have referred to myself or my possessions, it is a personalization of events and items experienced or possessed by someone else.  I do not personally do anything illegal, and I hope nobody else does either.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFirstAvailable
enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Spudz76]
    #3142769 - 09/16/04 10:23 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

What I gather from reading this thread is, with the addition of brassinosteroid, colonization will speed up and fruits will be larger, but potency will not go up.

Then, does that mean that although the fruits will be larger, you will have to eat more to have the same effect, since its the same amount of actives, but spread over a larger amount of fruit?




Also, 5 grams of 0.1% pure Brassinolide for $10? That doesn't sound like too good of a deal. How much would you have to add per 1qt of substrate to achieve a noticeable effect?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: FirstAvailable]
    #3142857 - 09/16/04 11:07 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

I don't know, but the bee pollen itself seemed to work for me. You go through these fancy isolation procedures and buy this expensive stuff, but if the bee pollen works, why bother? At least try the bee pollen before you knock it.

As far as the fruits being weak when they are big, that is a myth. Fruits are weak 99% of the time because of one of two things: (a) one doesn't pick early enough or (b) one don't dry their shrooms well enough. Particularly the drying part is critical and can be very difficult with big fruits if you are just doing passive dessicant drying (without a fan)--poor drying procedure is how this big fruits are weak myth started. Fan blowing through the mushrooms in the open for a day or two followed by a fan blowing through with a dessicant in a closed container is the only way to dry really well. The exception being if you live in a very dry area like a desert in which case you can skip the dessicant.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3143316 - 09/16/04 01:30 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Ahh makes sense, I always wondered how that rumor got started. It's silly as hell.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFirstAvailable
enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3143344 - 09/16/04 01:43 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

I wasn't referring to the rumor. Earlier in this thread, it was stated that due to the additive, the fruits grow larger, but potency does not increase. Is this true?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleShmoppy McGillicuddy
EmpathicSociopath
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 4,145
Loc: Oceania
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: FirstAvailable]
    #3143591 - 09/16/04 03:04 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Potency does not increase, but that doesn't mean it decreases. The fruits will still have normal potency, but a better yield.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFirstAvailable
enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Shmoppy McGillicuddy]
    #3144211 - 09/16/04 05:06 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Oh, ok


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleJoshua
Holoman
Male

Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,395
Loc: The Matrix
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #3144362 - 09/16/04 05:38 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

I used 3% bee pollen granules as a liquid medium. The resultant growth is the most rigerous growth I have seen in a liquid culture. The jars that were inoculated with this culture grew to be some of my best looking cultures.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleShmoppy McGillicuddy
EmpathicSociopath
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 4,145
Loc: Oceania
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Joshua]
    #3144495 - 09/16/04 06:05 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

3% by weight? or volume?

I have a bunch of bee pollen sitting around. SWISM tried it as an additive to WBS, but had problems with carmelization of the sugars in the pollen.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGr0wer
always improving
Male

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Shmoppy McGillicuddy]
    #3144557 - 09/16/04 06:25 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Sounds like we have a new TEK. Was the mix only 3% pollen or did it have any other additives? Where can one get bee pollen?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleJoshua
Holoman
Male

Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,395
Loc: The Matrix
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Shmoppy McGillicuddy]
    #3144843 - 09/16/04 07:52 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

3% by weight. I may show some pics of the culture.

If you want to incorporate bee pollen in grain jars, I would adjust your method. I wouldn't PC the pollen solution for longer than 15 minutes. Perhaps you could cook the grain while a bit dry and add the 15 min bee pollen solution with the spores such as in a syringe after the cooking of the grain.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSpudz76
Got mycelium on the brain...
Male

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 391
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Joshua]
    #3145022 - 09/16/04 08:45 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

That method would seem to make sense, good idea!

I found about a bajillion places to get it from, but this place has it for $18.18 per pound which seems like plenty for a long while. But it does seem to have a relatively short shelf life and should be refrigerated - I'm sure there are places to get lesser amounts. Also, being a human dietary supplement you ought to be able to find some at the local health nut store or maybe even GNC, but maybe not as pure (like, buffered for digestion or to increase shelf life, which probably won't help the mycelium digest it any better).


--------------------
Anywhere in this posting where I have referred to myself or my possessions, it is a personalization of events and items experienced or possessed by someone else.  I do not personally do anything illegal, and I hope nobody else does either.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Spudz76]
    #3146646 - 09/17/04 02:41 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

You can find bee pollen on Ebay too. I just did a search and found 100% pure bee pollen for $9.50 on Buy It Now plus $4.50 shipping. I have used bee pollen in manure, mixing it prior to pasturization at a concentration MUCH lower than 3%. The colonization was very aggressive and the fastest I've seen.


Edited by Blue Helix (09/17/04 02:42 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3146755 - 09/17/04 03:11 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Oh, and just for the record, when using the bee pollen in a manure/vermiculite/perlite/coir blend total bed colonized happened in 6 days using ordinary spawn ratios. Typically bed colonization takes me closer to 10 days.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSpudz76
Got mycelium on the brain...
Male

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 391
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3147280 - 09/17/04 09:02 AM (17 years, 10 days ago)

Wow, I wasn't picturing near twice the speed. How about pinning speed later on?


--------------------
Anywhere in this posting where I have referred to myself or my possessions, it is a personalization of events and items experienced or possessed by someone else.  I do not personally do anything illegal, and I hope nobody else does either.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Spudz76]
    #3147537 - 09/17/04 10:53 AM (17 years, 10 days ago)

I should know in about two weeks how that particular tray fruits...  :wink:


Edited by Blue Helix (09/17/04 10:53 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3147558 - 09/17/04 11:00 AM (17 years, 10 days ago)

By the way, a lot of things account for colonization speed, including the particular strain that pops up (it was from a multispore culture, not a clone). I cannot reasonably say the average increase in speed is roughly double until I have more data than one tray. I can say, though, that this tray that I used the bee pollen has colonized faster than any other I have seen and the increase in speed was significant, well outside the range of a random fluke I believe.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleYidakiMan
Stranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 2,023
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3157169 - 09/20/04 08:18 PM (17 years, 7 days ago)

While most people start with spores, those experimenting with brassinosterioids on pure substrains ought to be even more careful keeping cell lines young. It is my hypothesis that using steriods will lead to quicker mutation.


Think bitch tits.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleYidakiMan
Stranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 2,023
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3157298 - 09/20/04 08:53 PM (17 years, 7 days ago)

Hmmmm... What can you say about solubility of bee pollen?

I just tried dissolving 14.85 grams bee pollen into 300ml water (~5%) and got a puke colored opaque liquid. It wouldn't dissolve.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3157308 - 09/20/04 08:56 PM (17 years, 7 days ago)

If one mixes with wet manure or grain, it doesn't need to dissolve. I am not sure what the liquid culture folks are doing.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDEATH666
Adonal
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 475
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3159315 - 09/21/04 11:49 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Will amitriptamine work.


--------------------
Ah Shit


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: DEATH666]
    #3163151 - 09/22/04 02:08 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

I have no idea what amitriptamine is. I think whatever it is, bee pollen is probably cheaper.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleJoshua
Holoman
Male

Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,395
Loc: The Matrix
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3164159 - 09/22/04 12:18 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Yeah, the pollen isn't very water soluble. The culture will grow well though, and with time the solution will become more clear. There will remain an unsoluble portion at the bottom of the culture. One could experiment with filtration to get a better looking solution.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Joshua]
    #3165663 - 09/22/04 06:18 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Wow, old thread revived, and with good material added, that's a rare bird.

I've used bee pollen as an additive in liquid culture and find it very helpful, that is if there is a need to speed things up by a few days, or if you don't have lots of spores to start the liquid culture off fast.

Fungus Maximus (I think it was him) once had a bee pollen liquid culture actually fruit. The myc grew so thick, it formed a mat which floated and the mat fruited. (Fuel for the ever present hydro shroom pipe dream?)

I never did use it in grains or bulk substrates though, I didn't know it was so cheap in bulk. Damn, wish somebody had posted that info years ago (or i'd been smart enough to look)...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #3166187 - 09/22/04 08:10 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Oh, forgot to add that I never saw a difinitive reference to the presence or potency of brassinosteroids in bee pollen. I don't think that we should just assume that it's br's at play with bee pollen until that is confirmed, and all the other things that may be in bee pollen are ruled out.

Anybody seen a qualitative/quantitative analysis of bee pollen?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFirstAvailable
enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 728
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #3166288 - 09/22/04 08:34 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mycofile said:
I never did use it in grains or bulk substrates though, I didn't know it was so cheap in bulk.  Damn, wish somebody had posted that info years ago (or i'd been smart enough to look)...




$8.89/lb is the cheapest I have been able to find.  Have you found cheaper?


Quote:

mycofile said:
Anybody seen a qualitative/quantitative analysis of bee pollen?




Cant bee done.
hehehe getit? bee.  hehe bee. :rolleyes:
anyways, from what I have read on sites that sell the shit, bee pollen is just pollen that has rubbed onto bees' asses from various flowers that they have encountered throughout the day.  Then the bee farmers somehow harvest that.  Hows that for a shitty job.  scraping bees ass all day.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleYidakiMan
Stranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 2,023
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #3166300 - 09/22/04 08:36 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

I think that bee pollen is defined as any pollen collected by bees. That being said, brassinosteroids seem to be ubiquitous in the plant kingdom.


"Anybody seen a qualitative/quantitative analysis of bee pollen?"

It probably differs greatly from sample to sample, depending on the region of the bees.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleJoshua
Holoman
Male

Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,395
Loc: The Matrix
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #3170251 - 09/23/04 04:00 PM (17 years, 4 days ago)

According to this source, "Pollen and immature
seeds are the richest sources with a range of 1?
100 ng per g fresh weight."

In Gartz's study the levels used to induce increased growth was .1ppm brassinosteroid. This is equivalent to .00001% w/w. Using a figure of .0000005g brass/g pollen a solution containing 20% bee pollen would be equivalent. This also assumes that the dried pollen has equivalent brass as the fresh pollen.

I do not think/know that Gartz's experiment was anything but qualitative. It is very possible that a lower concentration of brass would also have significant effects.

Bee pollen has a huge variety of amino acids, vitamins, and micronutrients. I think this has a lot to do with the success of pollen in substrates.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Joshua]
    #3173098 - 09/24/04 01:40 AM (17 years, 4 days ago)

I also am not convinced it's the brassinosteroid (thank god for cut and paste) that made the substrate rip through so fast. I think it is more likely the micronutrients too. I only know that I have never seen a bulk substrate colonize as fast as this particular tray did. The casing colonization isn't nothing special so far (casing is inch depth/day 6 and still not through), but the proof in the pudding will be the pin set and associated growth. I know what I think will happen, but there are always surpises in mycology unless you grow only clones in a lab, so you take it as it comes.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3178513 - 09/25/04 11:52 AM (17 years, 2 days ago)

Well, 8th day on the bee pollen enhanced tray and while the substrate colonization was an all-time record, the casing is doing what it does half the time for me - pretty much nothing. I don't know what's exactly the issue, but casings have always been troublesome with me. I usually go about 1" deep. I seldom have a mold issue, but rather half the time the mycelium just won't touch the casing or grows through it weakly (like this time). There were no obvious problems with this casing except the pH was a little high (8.2) due the fact I started using a different oyster shell supplement and so needed less calcium carbonate powder. Oh well, luckily, I've developed a save technique I call the casing vacuum save, which is taking a wet/dry vac and removing the uncolonized portion of the casing before it contaminates (maybe I'll write a tek someday if there is interest). The casing vacuum save is a lot less damaging than a scrape, which practically ruins the yield since it breaks up the mycellium at a time the mycellium is down to begin with (which is why you are scraping), but even so the vacuum save technique will take yield down quite a bit (closer to the 2 pounds a square foot rather than 4). Still even with a save like this--which I have done a couple times--my yields are seldom as poor as those posted on the Shroomery. The only really Shoomery-like yield I got recently from a tray that didn't go totally south was when I used a coco coir/vermiculite casing, which totally sucked since coco coir totally overlays because it's nutritive (basically I didn't have a casing).

Anyway, I'll let you know how the bee pollen tray pin set goes. I wish this hadn't happened though.


Edited by Blue Helix (09/25/04 11:55 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3209521 - 10/03/04 12:34 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The pin set was modest with about 40 pins per square foot (a high density tray can easily double that number). I figure the modest pin set was probably due to the fact that the mycellium had a hard time penetrating the casing, which I then vacuumed off except about 1/4". The pins were even but not dense. Some fruits were quite large considering it was the first flush (50 g) but that's to be expected when the pins are not dense. Bruising, the degree of which some suggest is related to strength, was also average, bluing very dark navy blue but not black as I have seen on rare occasion. So, in this particular case, the bee pollen accelerated substrate colonization. The totals are below.


Edited by Blue Helix (10/05/04 02:14 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #3216762 - 10/05/04 02:10 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

First flush total : 1.42 lb./sq.ft. 

Generally, I get about 60% of the total of three flushes from the first flush, so I expect a three-flush total yield of about 2 1/3 lb./sq.ft with this tray.  This is on the low side of expected yield (2-4 lbs/sq.ft. average with 4 to 5-inch deep bed), but the result is pretty impressive considering the casing did not colonize well!  The most outstanding part of this first flush was the number of larger mushrooms.  I averaged one mushroom per square foot that was around 50 grams!  Now, for a third flush, that'd be no big deal, but this was a first flush!  If I scale stuff up as normally would happen, I fully expect the later flush largest monsters to be on the order of 70-120 grams a piece.  I may post a picture if I have time.

:mushroom2: Conclusion: The bee pollen stimulated faster colonization and larger mushrooms.  :mushroom2:
:mushroom2:          I will continue to use the bee pollen when available.
  :mushroom2:


Edited by Blue Helix (10/05/04 02:15 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleYidakiMan
Stranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 2,023
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3515135 - 12/17/04 10:48 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I just found this page: http://www.ebeehoney.com/
They sell it for $8.99/pound plus shipping. I am going to be buying some for some trials with King Oyster. That website has some stats on the bee pollen: 35% protein, 55% carbohydrates, 2% fatty acids, and 3% minerals and vitamins. Also one pound of bee pollen = three cups.

That is pretty potent stuff as far as protein content goes. It would be considered a concentrate.It is right up there with bran and cottonseed meal. That could very well explain the increased yields in Gartz's study. In terms of cost, it is a really expensive supplement. As I said cottonseedmeal contains about the same protein and costs only 66 cents a pound online, its cheaper bulk.

So bluehelix, you added about 1/3 lbs to your manure. You don't happen to know how much manure you had?

I am trying to figure out a good supplementation rate to start at...
I don't want to be too long winded here without offering any new information, I'll post a report on my trials, but don't expect too much, its a commercial venture.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,557
Last seen: 6 days, 13 hours
Trusted Cultivator
Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3820775 - 02/23/05 03:22 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Just to let everyone know, I have since stopped using bee pollen because I found that although it seemed to speed the spawn run a great deal, I have been having trouble with casing penetration with it. It seems to cause the mycellium to grow in a strange way, and I fear that in large doses it causes mycellium to capture new nutriets well but may actually hinder the mycellium to form the type of structure it needs to extent into non-nutritive areas like a casing. This is just a theory but I never had so much casing penetration trouble until I started using the bee pollen. The mycellium would be strong but would not move to the casing, and this was the exact same formula I have used for years. What good is a 6-day spawn run if you got a 50% chance of a successful casing run? I would like other's opinions on this matter, but I have put this bee pollen to rest for now.

Oh, and before I forget, I also did some agar experiments with it. It seems to also alter the mycellium structure significantly on agar too. It's like the mycellium grows in an odd spikey way rather than the traditional linear or rhizomorphic forms (even though it is fast). Maybe I'll take a picture sometime if I try it again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Boomr Bag, Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals, CBD Edibles   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 15,859 52 10/01/00 12:28 PM
by Anonymous
* Useful Substrate Supplements
( 1 2 all )
Humidity 6,657 24 07/20/11 04:10 AM
by RogerRabbit
* Government Secret Substrate Recipe
( 1 2 all )
MentalPiracy 10,229 27 08/04/03 04:38 PM
by Sev
* Pinning Hormone?! lemunhed 1,305 15 07/24/03 05:09 PM
by Sev
* For doubters of the DMT substrate method.
( 1 2 all )
Explorer 8,353 30 05/22/01 11:10 AM
by gray1
* substrate change-->yield/potency increase
( 1 2 all )
gdr 8,292 28 01/18/03 04:00 PM
by deanofmean
* A Bibliography of Psychoactive Fungi by MJ and Gartz Joshua 1,130 5 02/17/05 09:31 AM
by mjshroomer
* Re: Q about Gartz tryptamine research Ripper 1,448 3 05/18/00 11:14 AM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: RogerRabbit, cronicr, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta
8,932 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.058 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 16 queries.