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Invisiblemycofile
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hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid*
    #817118 - 08/14/02 10:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I've searched and can't seem to find it. Gartz did some experiments with cubensis, using a hormone to increase growth rates and sizes. The chemical is found in many organic sources, rape seed pollen and green beans being the most memorable in my mind. The picture I remember seeing which accompanied the research was of a huge set of fruits in the bottom of an erlenmyer flask.

Can anybody point me to more information on this subject, and has anyone used green beans as a substrate yet?


--------------------
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Edited by mycofile (08/15/02 02:19 PM)


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Offlinebluepoo
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #817528 - 08/15/02 11:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

if you named the hormone i coued help i think it was... triptamin that bost potence
you wont get that without a very good reson posible precurser to various drugs
its worth expermiting with simler chemicals
triptitophan "optimax"
melitonen
to see if the mushroom can convrt them to psilobin
all that stuff is prescrition only were im from but not in the us i think


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the above is what the litel leprecans told me to say and should be regarded as such
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Offlinecomario
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #817715 - 08/15/02 12:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Stamets (PMOTW, page39) only says that in the Gartz experiments potency was increased by the addition of tryptamines to the substrate. that's all i could find now.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: comario]
    #817985 - 08/15/02 01:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Nope, not beating the dead tryptamine horse again.

This is a specific chemical, of which many similar chemicals are suspected of being active. Starts with a b I think maybe. Been discussed thouroughly in theoretical terms several places, here, donkey, probably forrest floor as well. Seen a link to a chart listing the organic sources, maybe as many as 30, the specific compound they contained and their potencies. Rape seed POLLEN was the most active with the most promising compound, and I believe was the source that Gartz used. Green beans seemed a good thing to investigate based on the chart, although it had a smorgasborg of the interesting compounds not just the one that Gartz used.

The compound didn't have anything to do with potency. It was a growth enhancer. Size and speed of growth are the factors, not alkoloid production.

Does that jog anyones memory?
MJ, I think we've discussed this in the past, any ideas?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818040 - 08/15/02 02:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Still searching, but I stumbled across this reference:
In reply to:

Gartz, J. et al. "Growth-promoting effect of a brassinosteroid in mycelial cultures of the fungus Psilocybe cubensis." Die NaturwiBenschaften 77: 388-389 (1990).


(emphasis added)
now my search is a little more targeted. At least I figured out the key word I'm looking for.
Anybody done any research on brassinosteroid lately? I'll update the subject of the post.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818060 - 08/15/02 02:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818078 - 08/15/02 02:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

>Gartz, J. et al. "Growth-promoting effect of a brassinosteroid in mycelial cultures of the
>fungus Psilocybe cubensis." Die NaturwiBenschaften 77: 388-389 (1990).

I can get you this article if you want...

http://magnum.bibvb.ac.at/ALEPH/GNKQHY81JBX7LE7T9BXRRN5KCUL85J2RGGKTNT4TBMXSYJ3NUE-07013/direct-doc/ACC01-000498114-999-SYSNO


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: Anno]
    #818089 - 08/15/02 02:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sweet Anno. I'd love to have the article, although I'm not sure about that link you posted. Dumb americans can only read one language you know (and not to well at that...). How can I get it?

BTW, here's the plant sources chart
http://members.tripod.com/~mzullo/sourcebrassino.htm


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818251 - 08/15/02 03:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'm still sorting out all the scientific names of the plants on that list, but one I recognized imediately. Cannibis Sativa contains the compounds castasterone and teasterone. Not that I'd waste nugs in a substrate, I think a bean or something would be much better, just found it interesting.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: mycofile]
    #818286 - 08/15/02 04:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

>How can I get it?

Well, I can order it at our university?s library.
Should have it by monday or so.


Edited by Anno (08/15/02 04:42 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: hormones gartz used? [Re: Anno]
    #818464 - 08/15/02 05:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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Invisibleshroomerylurker
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* *DELETED* [Re: mycofile]
    #818528 - 08/15/02 06:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by shroomerylurker


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #819561 - 08/16/02 07:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sweet! Thanks Anno.

Now for the chemists. Are these compounds stable when pressure sterilized? Brassinolide, Castasterone, 6-Deoxocastasterone, Teasterone 3-laurate, and Tamosterone sulfate seem to be the major compounds. Which if any or all of these can stand up to the PC?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycophreak
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #822473 - 08/17/02 12:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

A useful brassinosteroid enriched medium contains 10 percent bee pollen, according to

http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/gregory/1042/index.html

To me the most interesting part of the brassinosteroid story for psilocybian cultivation is that Gartz doesn't mention about it in his patented substrate (No. 88-09773, Akad. Wiss. DDR). With that he (attempted to) patent a substrate of just brown rice.

So I think that the brassinosteroid ingredient just was not cost effective. It seems to accelerate mycelial growth / shorten colonization time but does not improve the yield of alkaloids substantially

I have performed a few tests myself too. My conclusion is that bee pollen is nice to have by hand in the case you try a new experimental fungus which grows too slow. But for cubensis it has no advantage.

So far each and every addition to the basic PF Substrate formula (brown rice, vermiculite, water) is erased by Ockham's razor.

The substrate becomes more difficult to prepare & more expensive, without enough compensation in terms of amounts of alkaloids/doses/spores produced per unit of time.

My guess is that brassinosteroid addition to cubie substrate goes the way of methionine + tryptamine hcl and the dodo

Moist brown rice substrate always wins because it cannot be simplfied further (and is cheaply&easily available all over the planet). And yes, brown rice contains brassinosteroids too!

Over the years my rule of thumb has become to distrust every new substrate ingredi?nt or technique which does not promise to solve an existing problem in the proven methods which I already use. For cubensis that is the PF TEK only. There are just two aspects of this technique of which I hope somebody ever comes up with a simplification, but I do not think it can be done: I wish that there was a way to use BRF without steam sterilization (i.e. cold) and I wish there was a subsitute for vermiculite, which can be hard to get in some places.


So: IF A NEW METHOD/SUBSTRATE RECIPE DOES NO SOLVE AN EXISTING PROBLEM THEN YOU PROBABLY DO NOT NEED IT. ESPECIALLY IF IT COMPLICATES YOUR EXISTING CULTIVATION ROUTINE, MAKES IT MORE EXPENSIVE OR USES LESS COMMONLY AVAILABLE UTENSILS OR - SUBSTRATE INGREDIENTS.

With the PF TEK for cubensis it takes just a few weeks from inoculation to harvest, the shortest time span of any psilocybian, so that time span is not a problem. Potency is not a problem too, nor is the biological efficiency (harvest potential per amount of substrate). The method is totally written for kitchen utensils so I do not expect any improvement on that frontier either.

Gartz' ultimate simplification idea was to mix cubensis spores or mycelium in a testtube with a ml of water, to which was added a source of energy (maltose), a source of psilly molecule skeleton (tryptamine), a source of methyl groups (methionine) and a source of phosphate. The idea was to biosynthesize a relatively large amount of psilly in a pure form in just a few days.

Unfortunately, so far this approach doesn't work properly (not in my attempts anyway - the mycelium died at the moment it met a high concentration of methionine).

If any of you know a way to make this approach work you can disturb me in the middle of having sexual intercourse.

But until that - I stick with the PF TEK.

Yachaj



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InvisibleAlkaloids
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #823109 - 08/17/02 09:48 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I don't have my references available, but I would hazard to say that none of those could probably withstand autoclaving. Most hormones are relatively delicate, so these probably can't handle the heat. If I can find specific temps I will go ahead and post them though.


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Anonymous

Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycophreak]
    #824262 - 08/17/02 07:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

ALL HAIL THE PF TEK.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
    #827020 - 08/19/02 01:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycophreak]
    #827514 - 08/19/02 08:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Anno, thanks for the paper.

Yacha, thanks for the link. And thank you for pointing me to the PF tek. I may have to try that sometime. I think you are right, PF is the only way to go, we might as well close the advanced cult. forum so that more people don't get sidetracked from it.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycophreak]
    #832222 - 08/21/02 08:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yacha, where did you get bee pollen from? Perhaps something was lost in the translation from german, but what I read said various pollens I believe, not bee pollen. Are you just assuming that bee pollen will contain some useful pollens, or do you have a reference to bee pollen containing brassinosteroids.

The paper you gave the link for says that pollen at 2% and 10% of the substrate showed strong increases in mycelial growth. (in the supplies section he simply says that the pollen was obtained from health food stores as mixed pollens or something).

Also, why dismis the findings of dramatically increased growth? Gartz study showed fruits at 3 weeks vs. the control which fruited at 5 weeks. He also shows dramatic increase in yield, by about a third. Jenson didn't give details, but said growth increase was strong. I fail to see how that can be compared to tryptamine or dodos. Sounds more like the effects of incubation, which certainly hasn't gone the way of the dodo. And Gartz findings on increased yield seem extremely interesting. At least to me....


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Anno]
    #3057127 - 08/27/04 09:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)



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