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Offlinestcore
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Best PF cake substrate ingredients?
    #816181 - 08/13/02 10:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What's the deal? Why isn't there a consensus on the best formula for a cake substrates? I don't want to spend time figuring this stuff out.

For example, if rye berries work better than brown rice, use 100% rye berries. Next, if rye berries don't work as well as so-and-so birdseed, use 100% so-and-so birdseed.

What's the point of combining different well-known ingredients? Just find out the best, and use only all that. What gives people?


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: stcore]
    #816188 - 08/13/02 10:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

some people find using rye or birdseed more difficult than the pf tek. they also require a pressure cooker. if i were newb, i would follow the pf tek with a batch of jars then make another batch of pf tek jars and case them. but instead of using brown rice flour, i would use dark rye flour because it will produce more potent shrooms. good luck.

edit: also you said for cakes which means rye berries and birdseed are out of the question because they are used as substrate for casings and it will not fruit easily without a casing layer.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


Edited by Eightball (08/13/02 10:10 PM)


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Offlinestwangetweezer
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: Eightball]
    #816225 - 08/13/02 10:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If i was using rye flour instead of BRF would i have to pressure cook more then 45 mins like say an hour and a half or would it be ok to pressure cook at 45 min.


--------------------
________________________________________
Everything in this post is ONE BIG LIE.

Holy shit Phish is back the boys have ended there hiatus this one of the greatest days of my life dreams do come true i have chills going down my spine time to go back on phish tour.

Phish will be playing:
madison square garden 12/31/02
hampton coliseum(THE MOTHER SHIP) 1/02/03 -1/04/03



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Invisiblemickey_rourke
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: stwangetweezer]
    #816341 - 08/13/02 11:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I believe you handle rye flour the same way you would BRF.


--------------------
"I tried to put it all behind me, but my redneck past is nipping at my heels.." -- Ben Folds Five


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Invisiblelostinautumn7
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: Eightball]
    #7735473 - 12/09/07 04:53 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

needing a casing layer for fuiting is a complete myth, it is benificial but not necassary, just wanted to clarify that in case someone who doesnt know came across this like my buddy did and it screwed him all up. thats what the dunk and roll is anyhow man. pseudo casing layer.


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
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OfflineNibin
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7735585 - 12/09/07 08:35 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

lostinautumn7 said:
needing a casing layer for fuiting is a complete myth, it is benificial but not necassary, just wanted to clarify that in case someone who doesnt know came across this like my buddy did and it screwed him all up. thats what the dunk and roll is anyhow man. pseudo casing layer.




For PF cakes that is true, the same applies to poo, but uncased grain rarely fruits. With grain on it's own you need a casing layer.


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: mickey_rourke]
    #7735588 - 12/09/07 08:36 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mickey_rourke said:
I believe you handle rye flour the same way you would BRF.




NO, you can just plain boil brf cakes but any other grain flour needs a pc.


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: stcore]
    #7735662 - 12/09/07 10:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

stcore said:

What's the point of combining different well-known ingredients? Just find out the best, and use only all that. What gives people?




You might think a T-bone steak is the best food, but try to survive on nothing but T-bone steaks. Mycelium, like humans, benefits from a balanced diet, and that means food from various sources. We're not so much trying to match nature, but to improve on it. You'll find a cow patty in a field with two or three mushrooms on it, but you'll find a cultivated tray with a hundred or more mushrooms on it.

If you want different ingredients to try, you can use rice bran instead of brf, and it will improve performance. You can substitute coffee grinds for all or part of the vermiculite. If growing wood loving species, you can substitute sawdust for all or part of the vermiculite. Experiment.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7735869 - 12/09/07 11:39 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I've wondered about adding lime to my cake mix. Wouldn't it help balance the acidity, as it does in casings? Have you ever tried that RR?


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #7735936 - 12/09/07 12:04 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You don't want lime in a cake. Mushroom mycelium prefers an acidic substrate, and BRF is already close to neutral, as is verm. Adding lime would degrade performance by raising pH.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Invisiblelostinautumn7
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #7735970 - 12/09/07 12:18 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think the pf substrate really needs to be Ph balanced, unless you are adding something outside of the original mix, like coffee that is more acidic. Still, not really necessary, mushrooms even tend to like a slightly acidic substrate. Plus RR is the guy who grew on straight coffee grounds, and I don't know for sure but I don't even think he added any Ph buffers, you will never be able to touch that level of acidity. Mushrooms still did fine. In regards to maximizing yield, there are a ton of other additives that you should consider for this mix before lime.


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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OfflineGoatfish
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7735975 - 12/09/07 12:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Coffee and BRF does work well. I also noticed the colonization time decreased for me when I used this combination.


--------------------
The memories that now rest in this forest
Forever shadowing the sunrise of my heart
Wings leave their nest at my coming
Swaying away unto the cold glowing sky
Dreaming away for a while
My spirit sighs in peace
Gazing unto the stars
Please, take me there


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Invisiblelostinautumn7
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7735984 - 12/09/07 12:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You don't want lime in a cake.  Mushroom mycelium prefers an acidic substrate, and BRF is already close to neutral, as is verm.  Adding lime would degrade performance by raising pH.
RR




wow, that post wasnt there when i started replying. you are too quick for me RR. as always  :bow:


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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OfflineAncientBeing
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7736122 - 12/09/07 01:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You don't want lime in a cake. Mushroom mycelium prefers an acidic substrate, and BRF is already close to neutral, as is verm. Adding lime would degrade performance by raising pH.
RR




But don't you use a pinch of lime per cup of rye?


--------------------
"If you have not love you have nothing"



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Invisiblelostinautumn7
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: AncientBeing]
    #7736141 - 12/09/07 01:05 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AncientBeing said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You don't want lime in a cake. Mushroom mycelium prefers an acidic substrate, and BRF is already close to neutral, as is verm. Adding lime would degrade performance by raising pH.
RR




But don't you use a pinch of lime per cup of rye?




yes, but as we already covered above, grains are not ideal for cakes. so why would you use rye for a cake? unless of course you didnt read the whole thread.....or you are extremely stubborn.


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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OfflineAncientBeing
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7736192 - 12/09/07 01:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Ah, I was just confused by what a 'cake' was. I thought colonized grain was referred to as cakes but I read up so now I know.


--------------------
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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7736442 - 12/09/07 02:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks, I was just curious. That being the case, what's the point in buffering casing mix?


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Invisiblelostinautumn7
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #7736596 - 12/09/07 03:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

the higher Ph in the casing mix is just an extra deterrent for contams. the mean green doesn't like alkaline, and when casing the mycelium is already very strong from colonizing the substrate, so it doesn't mind colonizing a little bit of non nutritious, alkaline, casing mix so it can make some nice healthy mushies for you. :grin:

there could also be another reason but from what i understand that is the main reason we do it.


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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Offlineewikk055
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7737752 - 12/09/07 08:41 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

RR, what ways do you add coffee grounds to substrates, and I'm not trying to be ignorant to the search bar, I've been trying to find good information about coffee additives to a brf substrate and yet have not been able to find one.

I plan on trying an experimental substrate (at least I think it is) of brf, miracle grow, and possibly coffee grounds.

any pointers RR?


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whatever you interpret from my posts may/may not be fictional.


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: ewikk055]
    #7737985 - 12/09/07 09:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

So does coffee swap with verm cup for cup? Is fresh coffee ok, cuz i'm not drinking a few gallons of coffee to make some cakes. haha


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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: Molasses]
    #7738040 - 12/09/07 10:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You can get free coffee grounds from your local Starbucks. From what I understand, They have 'em all bagged up and ready, as Grounds For Your Garden, or some such thing.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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Invisiblelostinautumn7
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: Molasses]
    #7738084 - 12/09/07 10:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

it would probably be better to just add the grounds to your mixture instead of substituting something else for it. coffee doesn't hold water half as well as verm does. i don't know what the optimum percentage of coffee is but it works no matter how much you put in, but allot of people have nice success with 10%-20% but that is when mixed with coir, so i am also excited to see what RR has to say about it. it might be enough just to hydrate your brf mixture with the required amount of water mixed 50/50 with spent coffee grounds that is how RR (and me thanks to RR) hydrates his grains, or at least he has done it that way and recommended it, am not sure if he does this still though.

and you must use used coffee grounds because new are still WAY too acidic for myc. if you don't want to make the coffee do what i do, get your grounds from starbucks, all you have to do is ask and they are free. or just run some hot water through the grounds till you leech some of that acidity. it might also work with new grounds if you correct the Ph with a buffer but that seems like a lot of work.


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: thedefone]
    #7738093 - 12/09/07 10:18 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
You can get free coffee grounds from your local Starbucks. From what I understand, They have 'em all bagged up and ready, as Grounds For Your Garden, or some such thing.




you guys are too quick for me, darn slow typing skills and slow internet. mainly slow typing skills. haha


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7739488 - 12/10/07 09:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Shrooms like acid substrates. The problem is that molds like it also, and they grow faster than cube mycelium.

That is why we correct the pH of bulk subs, because they will be exposed to air and contams.

If the substrate is in a jar or bag, in theory contaminate spores landing on the substrate isn't an issue so you can leave the substrate at that acid pH that the mycelium likes, and don't have to add lime.

On the other hand, unused coffee might be too acid, I son't know the pH of unsused coffee, but the slightly acid used coffee grounds are a good pH for mycelium.


--------------------
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: Nibin]
    #7739534 - 12/10/07 09:44 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

coffee doesn't hold water half as well as verm does.




Incorrect. Coffee grinds hold as much water per cup as verm.
RR


--------------------
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Invisiblelostinautumn7
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7741094 - 12/10/07 05:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

really...well then its good that you were here. thanks RR! off to play with new substrate recipes then.

but does verm hold water for a longer period of time than grinds? or is that a misconception as well?

by the way, not trying to be a brown-noser but ive always wanted to thank you RR, I follow your methods and advice religiously, i would be lost without you and a few of the others around here. and i think its so cool knowing that you actually have read some of my posts! :biggrin:


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


Edited by lostinautumn7 (12/10/07 05:10 PM)


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7749977 - 12/12/07 06:05 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think this might be a good additions to the cake archive. I don't see anything there about alternative ingredients.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: stcore]
    #7761349 - 12/15/07 12:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

So, I picked up some dark rye flour from
Bob's Red Mill. I'm not sure if I want to mix with brf, or try them separately. Wanna try rice bran too.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #7762172 - 12/15/07 05:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Why not try them all, I am excited to see all the different results from alternate cake substrate ingredients. My goal is to someday get an FC full of stacked non-poo cakes to outperform a poo monotub of the same size.


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7762917 - 12/15/07 08:59 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I don't have a feeling that there will be something as simple as poo and as affective, but it will probably be plausible to out-do a poo monotub with a quite complicated substrate.


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: ewikk055]
    #7765570 - 12/16/07 03:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ewikk055 said:
I don't have a feeling that there will be something as simple as poo and as affective, but it will probably be plausible to out-do a poo monotub with a quite complicated substrate.




I realize that poo is the most effective "simple" (I use simple for lack of a better word) substrate, but the idea is to prove to some certain disbelievers I know that h-poo, and monotubs for that matter, are not the do-all and end-all of mushroom cultivation. I personally prefer complex substrates and casings but I am definitely not against poo, or mono tubs. I have personal experience with both and they work great, all I am out to prove is that they can be topped by an FC full of cakes, which many people I associate with are led to believe cannot be done.


--------------------
"May your mycelia multiply and be fruitful."

          - oxohawkoxo

the shroomery is  one hell of a community, lots of good people here, and i am damn proud to be a part of it. thanks shroomery and all shroomerites. :heart:       
                            - lostinautumn7


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7765590 - 12/16/07 03:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The biological efficiency of cakes is way superior to that of poo, even without changing the basic pf formula.

A amount of cakes that weigh the same as the amount of poo you use, will give more fruits, but it will be a pain in the ass to have FCs for all of them.


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Re: Best PF cake substrate ingredients? [Re: lostinautumn7]
    #7765605 - 12/16/07 03:37 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I've been working with steel cut oats with some success.
The newest batch is mostly all steel cut oats with less then 1 cup of verm in it.

I've got one of my previous oat experiments in the fc right now spawned to composted cow manure from lowes.

RR's video reminded me of the shroomery. I used to read up on growing here back in '98 when it was still newish and I had forgot all these years until the RR video sample on youtube. anyway. . .

Bob's Red Mill Steel Cut Oats. Or Irish Oatmeal Steel Cut Oats.
Mycelium seem to love that shit.

I've also read about Bob's Red Mill 12 grain flour being a great substitute in the PF cake but i've never tried it. I looked for it at the store but couldn't find it amongst all the other Bob Red Mill stuff.


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