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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
#8165340 - 03/19/08 02:22 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
JonnyOnTheSpot said: have you really thought this through...why the hell would the health care system control drugs if they were legal? that makes no sense at all. they don't control alcohol or tobacco, and for good reason too. how does going to a doctor to get a prescription for a drug that serves no purpose but to get you high make a lick of sense? if drugs were legal they would obviously be sold in ABC/liquor store type places.
Alcohol and tobacco have been around for thousands of years.
These new drugs have only been around for 50+ years. They have a greater chance of abuse. Having a Dr give a Rx for said drug allows a modicum of control. Can cut potential addicts off, and could generally do a better job of distributing these chemicals than the current thug society.
Quote:
and as an example of how silly this 'legalize everything and we'll all be fine' scenario is, just take a look at the drug oxycontin. does the fact that oxycontin is legal mean that there is no crime or suffering surrounding it? NOOOO. in fact, oxycontin is thriving in the black market, it's abuse is through the roof, and OC related crime is off the charts as well. people rob pharmacies all the time just to steal oxycontin.
Never did i claim that this solution would stop crime or the black market.
My biggest desire is to get meth off the streets, while trying to legalize all drugs in the process.
Quote:
so, once again, this issue is no where near as simple as you're making it out to be. you must have no real intention of coming up with a solution for this problem if you foolishly convince yourself that it's so simple and that simply legalizing all drugs will solve most of the problems. you're just kidding yourself really.
I don't see you coming up with any better ideas.
Keeping things "as they are" is not a solution to the meth problem.
What do you propose to solve this problem?
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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blissedout
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 22,320
Loc: Yonder
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: niteowl]
#8165426 - 03/19/08 04:14 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
So in order to stop the rampant spread of "meth", legalize it and let the big companies make this drug, not some street thug who only cares about turning a profit.
Yeah, because you know the big companies aren't worried about turning a profit.
--------------------
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Redstorm]
#8165489 - 03/19/08 05:24 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: People have the right to put whatever they want in their bodies.
You are not your brother's keeper and have no right to determine what they should do to themselves. This exact line of thinking is what created the war on drugs.
You are not your brother's keeper.
The only argument necessary.
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. *DELETED* [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
#8165504 - 03/19/08 05:52 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: Reason for deleting?
-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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Kada
Asha'man
Registered: 02/15/05
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Chemy]
#8165570 - 03/19/08 07:00 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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-------------------- ~The Cultivators Motherload~ "I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein "There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama Live long and prosper.
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. *DELETED* [Re: Chemy]
#8165574 - 03/19/08 07:02 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: Reason for deleting?
-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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thePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
Registered: 07/07/02
Posts: 3,289
Loc: Indiana
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Chemy]
#8165612 - 03/19/08 07:33 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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All this talk of robbing pharmacies made me think of this awesome old flick named Drug Store Cowboy.
Watch it.
-------------------- T h e r e a r e n o o r d i n a r y m o m e n t s.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: niteowl]
#8165651 - 03/19/08 08:11 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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> What do you propose to solve this problem?
What's the problem again? (serious, though rhetorical question)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Seuss]
#8166546 - 03/19/08 01:10 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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The problem that I mentioned in the OP.
Getting the dangerous drug, meth off the streets, and replacing it with a legal, safer alternative.
I have yet to hear anyone offer up any decent ideas. Other than "meth is bad, mmmk, legalizing it would cause more problems than keeping it illegal" Whicn, IMO is rubbish.
AS it stands now ANYONE from the age of 14+ can get their hands on meth.
Legalizing it would greatly reduce the number of kids getting their hands on this "bathtub gin" of our generation.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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JonnyOnTheSpot
Sober Surfer
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,527
Loc: North Carolina
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: niteowl]
#8167233 - 03/19/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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let me make something perfectly clear for a couple of you guys who don't seem able to read between the lines. just because i don't agree with your opinions and theories about legalizing meth and other drugs, doesn't mean i do not support legalizing drugs. when i say "no, legalizing meth isn't a solution to 'the evils of meth'" that does not equate to "legalizing drugs is a bad idea! drugs are bad!". so please stop putting words in my mouth and making so many silly assumptions.
now niteowl, you were saying:
"Alcohol and tobacco have been around for thousands of years.
These new drugs have only been around for 50+ years. They have a greater chance of abuse. Having a Dr give a Rx for said drug allows a modicum of control. Can cut potential addicts off, and could generally do a better job of distributing these chemicals than the current thug society."
so marijuana and opiates haven't been around for thousands of years? how about cocaine and mushrooms? they were both invented 50 years ago? all of those drugs have been used for centuries ( yes, even cocaine) but even if that wasn't the case, their potential for abuse is certainly no greater then alcohol's potential for abuse. i'd wager that if all drugs were legal, that alcohol would still be the most widely abused drug by a large margin.
but even assuming, for arguments sake, that these "newer" currently illegal drugs did have more potential for abuse, it is still pointless, and somewhat counterproductive, to legalize them and then require people to see a doctor and get a script for their DOC. you might as well leave them illegal if you're going to give the doctor the ability to deny whoever he pleases. also, you still haven't explained how it is a medical issue in any way whatsoever. it's not at all. recreational drugs have nothing to do with your doctor. that's why alcohol and tobacco aren't sold in pharmacies. if you think going to the doctor's office is a pain in the ass now just wait until every single stoner in the country has to go get a prescription to get stoned.
As far as doing a better job of distribution goes, i think that's pretty out of touch too, particularly if the drug in question is meth. do you honestly believe people will stop cooking and selling meth on their own if the government sells it in pharmacies? first of all, pharmacy drugs are diverted to the black market all the time, but nevermind that, because with meth it's a moot point. meth is one of the easiest and most profitable drugs to make and sell, so why would everyone making it just give up their livelihoods because (lol) the government wanted to tax people for it? unless the government sold meth for so incredibly cheap that the cookers couldn't compete (which would create a whole new set of addicts and problems all together) then cooks will just continue cooking and just lower their prices to compete. perhaps they'll sell to that whole "addicted to meth" crowd that you said doctors would have the power to reject for scripts. meth would still be sold on the streets if drugs were legalized. it's really just drugs like cocaine, heroin, acid, and marijuana that legalization would effect drastically, because those drugs (marijuana aside) are not easily grown and made into drugs. they come from across the world, whereas meth comes from trailer parks. so how legalizing it is going to be the solution for the 'evils of meth' is not really clear at all. it certainly won't solve the social problems meth creates. if anything, it will probably make the problems worse on all levels. the only difference would be that people selling/buying it don't get into as much trouble when they are caught, and the government would be making taxes from it's sale and usage.
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JonnyOnTheSpot
Sober Surfer
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,527
Loc: North Carolina
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Chemy]
#8167391 - 03/19/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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"Why are methadone clinics free from robberies? Methadone is offered at a cheap price and anyone can get it."
methadone clinics get robbed all the time. that fact is a simple google search away. even though it's 'cheap and everyone can get it' and even though methadone clinics are like little fortresses compared to pharmacies, they still get robbed all the time.
"Why are pharmacies robbed of oxycontin?"
for the same reason methadone clinics get robbed i'd imagine. they are facilities that are known to always have a supply of opiates in stock.
i guess someone forgot to give the junkies the memo about how we all live in peaceful harmony when drugs are publicly available.
"That means that an armed robber has a choice, rob a bank for $2,000-3,000 or rob a pharmacy for 30,000-50,000 worth of cash and pharmaceuticals, sell the drugs and make a fortune."
you've got that little figure you made up completely backwards. typically when someone robs a bank, taking only the registers, they usually get 15-30 g's. no one i've ever heard of goes into a pharmacy and walks out with 30-50 g's worth of "oxycontin and cash". Have you ever read any news articles about pharmacy robberies? usually the robbers go in, demand nothing but OC, take as much as they can carry/i], and run. for instance, on the news just two days ago they were talking about someone who's hit three pharmacies for oxy. they said he took 200-300 pills each time.
these guys aren't criminal masterminds after all. they're junkies robbing most likely out of desperation, and whether you like it or not, they're taking a drug that sits on a shelf in a store at the governments blessing. that's just the way it it.
did you really think bank robbers typically only make off with 2-3 g's?
Or, maybe some that rob pharmacies are addicts and can't get their oxycontin lately because Mr. DEA agent raided their source, now all his friends are dry and he needs OC's and money.
yeah maybe...or maybe they're just junkies addicted to pharmies who know there are a bunch of pills sitting at the drugstore...
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
#8167412 - 03/19/08 03:49 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
JonnyOnTheSpot said: let me make something perfectly clear for a couple of you guys who don't seem able to read between the lines. just because i don't agree with your opinions and theories about legalizing meth and other drugs, doesn't mean i do not support legalizing drugs. when i say "no, legalizing meth isn't a solution to 'the evils of meth'" that does not equate to "legalizing drugs is a bad idea! drugs are bad!". so please stop putting words in my mouth and making so many silly assumptions.
now niteowl, you were saying:
"Alcohol and tobacco have been around for thousands of years.
These new drugs have only been around for 50+ years. They have a greater chance of abuse. Having a Dr give a Rx for said drug allows a modicum of control. Can cut potential addicts off, and could generally do a better job of distributing these chemicals than the current thug society."
so marijuana and opiates haven't been around for thousands of years? how about cocaine and mushrooms? they were both invented 50 years ago? all of those drugs have been used for centuries ( yes, even cocaine) but even if that wasn't the case, their potential for abuse is certainly no greater then alcohol's potential for abuse. i'd wager that if all drugs were legal, that alcohol would still be the most widely abused drug by a large margin.
but even assuming, for arguments sake, that these "newer" currently illegal drugs did have more potential for abuse, it is still pointless, and somewhat counterproductive, to legalize them and then require people to see a doctor and get a script for their DOC. you might as well leave them illegal if you're going to give the doctor the ability to deny whoever he pleases. also, you still haven't explained how it is a medical issue in any way whatsoever. it's not at all. recreational drugs have nothing to do with your doctor. that's why alcohol and tobacco aren't sold in pharmacies. if you think going to the doctor's office is a pain in the ass now just wait until every single stoner in the country has to go get a prescription to get stoned.
As far as doing a better job of distribution goes, i think that's pretty out of touch too, particularly if the drug in question is meth. do you honestly believe people will stop cooking and selling meth on their own if the government sells it in pharmacies? first of all, pharmacy drugs are diverted to the black market all the time, but nevermind that, because with meth it's a moot point. meth is one of the easiest and most profitable drugs to make and sell, so why would everyone making it just give up their livelihoods because (lol) the government wanted to tax people for it? unless the government sold meth for so incredibly cheap that the cookers couldn't compete (which would create a whole new set of addicts and problems all together) then cooks will just continue cooking and just lower their prices to compete. perhaps they'll sell to that whole "addicted to meth" crowd that you said doctors would have the power to reject for scripts. meth would still be sold on the streets if drugs were legalized. it's really just drugs like cocaine, heroin, acid, and marijuana that legalization would effect drastically, because those drugs (marijuana aside) are not easily grown and made into drugs. they come from across the world, whereas meth comes from trailer parks. so how legalizing it is going to be the solution for the 'evils of meth' is not really clear at all. it certainly won't solve the social problems meth creates. if anything, it will probably make the problems worse on all levels. the only difference would be that people selling/buying it don't get into as much trouble when they are caught, and the government would be making taxes from it's sale and usage.
If you had actually read my posts, I never included "natural drugs" (cocaine, opiates and mushrooms are all natural drugs) in the list of drugs to be regulated by the medical field. Only man made chemicals.
Again I ask what is your solution to the meth problem?
Keep them illegal? Legalize them, but let the street dealers keep cooking poisons for the public to buy?
Come on now and give an idea/suggestion that contributes to solving the problem rather than bashing my ideas.
Total unregulated legalization of drugs isn't going to happen
The public is going to demand some form of regulation. With major health care reform we can let the health care professionals regulate these more harmful drugs.
I doubt you could come up with a better solution than what I have already come up with.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. *DELETED* [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
#8167580 - 03/19/08 04:13 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: Reason for deleting?
-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
Edited by Chemy (03/19/08 04:20 PM)
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Chemy]
#8167716 - 03/19/08 04:31 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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He sure does like to bash others ideas, yet can't come up with a better solution.
Kinda lame if you ask me
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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JonnyOnTheSpot
Sober Surfer
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,527
Loc: North Carolina
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Chemy]
#8167821 - 03/19/08 04:49 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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methadone clinic robbery
attempted robbery at methadone clinic
man seeking METHADONE robs pharmacy
why don't you show any sort of proof whatsoever that an average bank robbery yields 2-3 thousand dollars. anything, other then your own dim-witted assumptions that is. can you? i seriously doubt it.
the midwest bank robbers: "Langan and Guthrie allegedly robbed at least 18 banks during a two year period before Langan was arrested following a shootout with police in Columbus, Ohio in January, 1996. A search of storage lockers and places the pair had visited turned up promotional and recruiting material for the Aryan Republican Army. More than $250,000 in robbery proceeds were never recovered. The FBI investigated at the time whether the money had been used to fund violent right-wing activities."
that's 250,000 divided by 18 bank robberies....yeah, it's a little more then 2-3 thousand. there's one example that took me about two minutes to find...
do you ever say anything factual, or is everything you say just you talking out of your ass?
what's it like being as clueless as you?
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JonnyOnTheSpot
Sober Surfer
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,527
Loc: North Carolina
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: niteowl]
#8167954 - 03/19/08 05:10 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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a solution that is better than yours? pretty much anything, but if you want me to be specific, then fine. if it makes you stop whining like a bitch.
legalizing drugs into different tiers. selling various tiers in government regulated (like abc stores)stores of various levels of security. making people apply for drug specific licenses that are easier or harder to get based on the relative 'danger' of the specific drug they wish to buy. so for instance, you'd need to be 21 years old and have a "level 1" license to buy marijuana, alcohol, mushrooms. 21 and have a class 2 license to buy cocaine, acid, etc etc....honestly anything makes more sense then having to ask your doctor for a prescription to get high. christ...
you guys are so typical of why the legalization movement is always laughed at by the majority. you propose ridiculous crap and believe foolishly that legalization is some sort of magic wand that will fix everything. it's stupid ill-conceived nonsense that you've convinced yourselves rather than admitting that legalization WON'T fix everything. i'm not even against legalization, but you guys act like i am because i'm haven't brainwashed myself into believing that everything having to do with legalizing drugs is some brilliant quick-fix that will save us all.
but i'm done arguing with you. there is no point, arguing with people who won't listen to reason, and waiting for you guys to say something relevant is like waiting for hell to freeze over.
YEAH, YOU WIN, LEGALIZING METH WILL SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS SURROUNDING IT! THE EVILS OF METH ARE SOLVED WOO!
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THEBats
FuturePsychopharmacologist
Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 1,268
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
#8167964 - 03/19/08 05:12 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
JonnyOnTheSpot said: methadone clinic robbery
attempted robbery at methadone clinic
man seeking METHADONE robs pharmacy
why don't you show any sort of proof whatsoever that an average bank robbery yields 2-3 thousand dollars. anything, other then your own dim-witted assumptions that is. can you? i seriously doubt it.
the midwest bank robbers: "Langan and Guthrie allegedly robbed at least 18 banks during a two year period before Langan was arrested following a shootout with police in Columbus, Ohio in January, 1996. A search of storage lockers and places the pair had visited turned up promotional and recruiting material for the Aryan Republican Army. More than $250,000 in robbery proceeds were never recovered. The FBI investigated at the time whether the money had been used to fund violent right-wing activities."
that's 250,000 divided by 18 bank robberies....yeah, it's a little more then 2-3 thousand. there's one example that took me about two minutes to find...
do you ever say anything factual, or is everything you say just you talking out of your ass?
what's it like being as clueless as you?
owned
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
#8167966 - 03/19/08 05:12 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Wow 3 methadone cases in 20 years in the US.
It happens all the time.
Keep researching you might find 9 or 10 that happened in the past 20 years.
Wrong again.
1 bank robbery case you present that involved a pair of robbers taking all the registers.
I can go find 1 case where the robber made off with nothing how about that??
You can't accept the fact I'm right, and I am.
Take it sleazy.
-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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THEBats
FuturePsychopharmacologist
Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 1,268
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: Chemy]
#8167977 - 03/19/08 05:16 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Chemy said: Wow 3 methadone cases in 20 years in the US.
It happens all the time.
Keep researching you might find 9 or 10 that happened in the past 20 years.
Wrong again.
1 bank robbery case you present that involved a pair of robbers taking all the registers.
I can go find 1 case where the robber made off with nothing how about that??
You can't accept the fact I'm right, and I am.
Take it sleazy.
I don't think there's many people who rob a bank by themselves. Also there's still the matter of where you get your figure of an average of 2-3 g per robbery. Or for that matter the average profit from robbing a pharmacy.
Edited by THEBats (03/19/08 05:17 PM)
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: The evils of meth......a solution. [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
#8167989 - 03/19/08 05:18 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
JonnyOnTheSpot said: methadone clinic robbery
attempted robbery at methadone clinic
man seeking METHADONE robs pharmacy
why don't you show any sort of proof whatsoever that an average bank robbery yields 2-3 thousand dollars. anything, other then your own dim-witted assumptions that is. can you? i seriously doubt it.
the midwest bank robbers: "Langan and Guthrie allegedly robbed at least 18 banks during a two year period before Langan was arrested following a shootout with police in Columbus, Ohio in January, 1996. A search of storage lockers and places the pair had visited turned up promotional and recruiting material for the Aryan Republican Army. More than $250,000 in robbery proceeds were never recovered. The FBI investigated at the time whether the money had been used to fund violent right-wing activities."
that's 250,000 divided by 18 bank robberies....yeah, it's a little more then 2-3 thousand. there's one example that took me about two minutes to find...
do you ever say anything factual, or is everything you say just you talking out of your ass?
what's it like being as clueless as you?
A typical robbery nets an average of about $4,000 nationwide Link to JonnyOnThe Spots ass owned
THEbats you read that????
total PWNAGE BOOYA
-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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