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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!!
    #8152768 - 03/16/08 10:04 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

This is a most exciting time for me to; see this:thumbup:




I believe that this will demonstrate to our country, our people, and our heritage, if the Constitution does still have a shread of relevance and respect in this current era.



For me, there is only one possible conclusion that the justices can come too.....side with the rights of the individual. Being that is the 2nd Amendment, in the BILL OF RIGHTS, there can be no other legitimate conclusion. No, the right to bear arms does not only apply to militias, and no, it does not protect the average citizen just from the federal government, while the States can run rampant on this issue. I would like to see the cities like New York and Chicago, reread the 10th Amendment.It a fundamental right of any law abiding citizen, to be able to watch over one's property and safety.


People kill and murder people; guns do not.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/15/AR2008031502358_pf.html


D.C.'s Gun Ban Gets Day in Court
Justices' Decision May Set Precedent In Interpreting the 2nd Amendment

By Robert Barnes
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 16, 2008; A01



Despite mountains of scholarly research, enough books to fill a library shelf and decades of political battles about gun control, the Supreme Court will have an opportunity this week that is almost unique for a modern court when it examines whether the District's handgun ban violates the Second Amendment.

The nine justices, none of whom has ever ruled directly on the amendment's meaning, will consider a part of the Bill of Rights that has existed without a definitive interpretation for more than 200 years.

"This may be one of the only cases in our lifetime when the Supreme Court is going to be interpreting the meaning of an important provision of the Constitution unencumbered by precedent,'' said Randy E. Barnett, a constitutional scholar at the Georgetown University Law Center. "And that's why there's so much discussion on the original meaning of the Second Amendment.''

The outcome could roil the 2008 political campaigns, send a national message about what kinds of gun control are constitutional and finally settle the question of whether the 27-word amendment, with its odd structure and antiquated punctuation, provides an individual right to gun ownership or simply pertains to militia service.

"The case has been structured so that they have to confront the threshold question," said Robert A. Levy, the wealthy libertarian lawyer who has spent five years and his own money to bring District of Columbia v. Heller to the Supreme Court. "I think they have to come to grips with that."

The stakes are obviously high for the District, which passed the nation's strictest gun-control law in 1976, just after residents were granted the authority to govern themselves. It virtually bans the private possession of handguns, and requires that rifles and shotguns in the home be kept unloaded and disassembled or outfitted with a trigger lock.

The law's challengers -- security guard Dick Anthony Heller is the named party in the suit -- say the measure has been an abysmal failure at cutting crime or stanching the city's homicide rate, and a success only in depriving the law-abiding of a ready weapon for protection. The District contends that banning handguns is a logical decision in an urban setting, where more guns would result in more killings.

The city's lawyers argue that the Second Amendment does not provide an individual right and that, even if it does, the amendment is not implicated by legislation that concerns only the District of Columbia.

The case could be a revealing test of the court headed by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. Roberts came to the bench saying justices should decide cases as narrowly as possible, but last year he was part of a slim majority that made bold breaks with the court's jurisprudence in cases both recent and old, on issues such as school integration and abortion.

Clues to the justices' interpretations of the Second Amendment are scant and cryptic, and Roberts said during his 2005 confirmation hearings that the last time the court considered the issue -- in 1939 -- it "sidestepped" the fundamental questions.

That is part of the reason that the outcome -- not expected until near the end of the court's term in late June -- will be so intriguing, said Suzanna Sherry, a law professor at Vanderbilt University.

"It is very rare that the justices write on a clean slate," she said. "In some ways, it gives them great freedom."

Levy and lawyers Alan Gura and Clark Neily were able to persuade the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit last year to do what no other federal appeals court had ever done: strike down a local gun-control ordinance on Second Amendment grounds.

The amendment says that "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,'' and all but one of the circuits that had considered the issue previously had interpreted it as providing a gun-ownership right related only to military service.

But Senior Judge Laurence H. Silberman, a conservative icon, wrote for a 2 to 1 panel that the amendment provides an individual right just as other provisions of the Bill of Rights do. And because handguns fall under the definition of "arms," he wrote, the District may not ban them.

The Supreme Court's endorsement of an individual right would be a monumental change in federal jurisprudence, but perhaps not surprising. Even a small but growing group of liberal constitutional scholars -- "against my political instincts," in the words of Harvard law professor Laurence H. Tribe -- have endorsed the individual-right view.

But even fundamental rights are subject to government restrictions, and whether the justices are ready to decide on the reasonableness of the District's ban could be the crucial question of the case.

The city received an unlikely lifeline from the Bush administration, which told the court that the amendment provides an individual right but that the appeals court erred in deciding that the District's ban was automatically unconstitutional.

"If adopted by this court," Solicitor General Paul D. Clement wrote in the government's brief, "such an analysis could cast doubt on the constitutionality of existing federal legislation prohibiting the possession of certain firearms, including machineguns."

Clement said that the District's law may well be unconstitutional, but that the case should be returned to lower courts for "application of a proper standard of review" and to permit "Second Amendment doctrine to develop in an incremental and prudent fashion."

Gun rights supporters were furious about the government's position, and Vice President Cheney went so far as to join a friend-of-the-court brief that specifically rejects the administration's view. Levy said returning the case to lower courts would be a "death knell," and his team has urged the court to apply "strict scrutiny" to any government action that would restrict gun ownership.

Said Gura: "What we want to do is take prohibition off the table."

The case is complicated by the District's secondary argument that the Second Amendment is not implicated by legislation that applies only to the District of Columbia.

The challengers have received a broad array of political support, signs of the strength of the gun rights movement: More than 31 states and a majority of the House and Senate have signed friend-of-the-court briefs.

Among the presidential candidates, Republican Sen. John McCain signed on, while Democratic Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton did not. Both Democrats have looked for a middle ground, saying they believe the Second Amendment preserves an individual right, but one that is subject to government restrictions.

That position would seem popular. A Washington Post poll shows that 72 percent of the public believes the Constitution provides an individual right, but respondents were evenly split on whether it is more important to protect the rights of Americans to own guns or to control gun ownership.

Nearly 60 percent said they would support the kind of law in question.

But nationally, it is hard to find many laws as restrictive as the one in the District, partly because of the gun rights lobby's vigilance. More than 40 state constitutions have gun ownership guarantees. Maryland's is one of the few that does not.

As a result, it is difficult to know what gun-control legislation across the country would be at risk even if the Supreme Court upheld the D.C. Circuit's decision.

Levy said the next targets will be handgun laws in Chicago and New York City, although the court has never held that the Second Amendment is applicable to states. And one legal theory is that the provision is a restriction only against the federal government.

Both sides agree that the court's decision could send a powerful message beyond the District.

Tribe, whose support of the individual right is often cited by gun rights supporters, wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal recently that said the District's law could still be upheld and urged the court to decide the case narrowly.

But he acknowledged in an interview that the justices might "jump at the opportunity" to write broadly when they finally have a chance to put their mark "on a part of the Constitution that isn't already paved over with layer upon layer of judicial precedent."





--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (03/16/08 10:13 AM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8152813 - 03/16/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

While hopefully the courts get this right, it is a shame it had to get to this point.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8152835 - 03/16/08 10:38 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

One easy compromise would be to keep the ban on handguns and short barrel weapons, allow the law abiding to keep their long barreled weapons intact. It will still cause whatever decrease in murder rate that being without handguns will cause, but it will leave the law abiding free to defend themselves in their homes (and maybe vehicles?).

To be honest though, I think the second amendment is a horrible failure. The intention was to keep a populace which was able to overthrow a tyrannous government if the need arose.

Guess what? The need has arisen- guess what? Nothing happens.

It's not guns alone which allow a populace to overthrow a government, it's intelligence and willpower. These qualities have been engineered out of the American populace for the last half century. What's more, the country has been put on lockdown, so this intelligence and willpower may not resurface. Any hint of even so much as a rebuttal against today's tyrannous government would be "terrorism".

Today, the only functions guns serve are the quick ends- throw you out of your SUV and cap you, or cap the guy trying to throw you out of your SUV. (Or get angry, and cap the guy that cut you off.)

Too bad everyone has a gun already, because now a transition to a gun-free America would give the criminals the upper hand!


--------------------
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Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8152853 - 03/16/08 10:48 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I disagree with almost everything you said.

Quote:


One easy compromise would be to keep the ban on handguns and short barrel weapons, allow the law abiding to keep their long barreled weapons intact. It will still cause whatever decrease in murder rate that being without handguns will cause, but it will leave the law abiding free to defend themselves in their homes (and maybe vehicles?).




Taking guns away from people has never lowered a crime rate. Anywhere. DC has one of the highest murder rates in the country, but no handguns. Your point is moot here. Lets give the people guns and I bet the murder rate goes down.

Quote:


To be honest though, I think the second amendment is a horrible failure. The intention was to keep a populace which was able to overthrow a tyrannous government if the need arose.

Guess what? The need has arisen- guess what? Nothing happens.





In your mind, maybe. The vast majority of the populace who aren't angst-ridden teenagers realize that while things may not be utopian, they are certainly better than 95% of the alternatives. While you may think things are just horrible because you can't smoke pot, or because Ron Paul is out of the race, the fact remains that this country has provided the highest standard of living to the largest number of people of any government in any country in any time in history.

This is literally as good as it gets.

Quote:


It's not guns alone which allow a populace to overthrow a government, it's intelligence and willpower. These qualities have been engineered out of the American populace for the last half century. What's more, the country has been put on lockdown, so this intelligence and willpower may not resurface.





Speak for yourself. The only thing sapping the willpower of the people is a government coddling them, not one smacking them down. I know you think the government is horrible and repressive, but try it someplace else.

Again, better than 95% of the alternatives.

Quote:


Today, the only functions guns serve are the quick ends- throw you out of your SUV and cap you, or cap the guy trying to throw you out of your SUV. (Or get angry, and cap the guy that cut you off.)





Discounting the thousands of legitimate uses of a gun that happen every day...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8152889 - 03/16/08 10:56 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

You've gotta be my favorite liberal ever.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8152911 - 03/16/08 11:04 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I don't toe the party line.

Like I've said before, my views move more to the right all the time.

If the Republicans ever decide to split their party and drop all their nasty "Social Conservative" or "Christian Right" bullshit, I'd probably give their party a serious look.

I can get down w/ reforming welfare, or reforming taxes, and capitalism, and guns, and a strong military.

But the Gay-Hating and Anti-Abortion and "Return to the Dark Ages Science Policy" things are deal-breakers. Not to mention that whole "invading innocent countries on sketchy evidence" thing...

But yeah, I love America.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8153003 - 03/16/08 11:33 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I disagree with almost everything you said.





It's hard to take you seriously when your views are so obviously based on your personal desires rather than any want for public safety, but I will try and reason with you...

Quote:


Taking guns away from people has never lowered a crime rate. Anywhere. DC has one of the highest murder rates in the country, but no handguns. Your point is moot here. Lets give the people guns and I bet the murder rate goes down.





The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita.

Approximately 70% of the total murders in the US are committed with firearms, vs. about 30% in Canada.

Give people guns to bring the murder rate down? So will they just shoot each other's intention to kill?

Keep in mind I did make the point that it is too late to remove guns at this point, they are already everywhere.


Quote:


In your mind, maybe. The vast majority of the populace who aren't angst-ridden teenagers realize that while things may not be utopian, they are certainly better than 95% of the alternatives. While you may think things are just horrible because you can't smoke pot, or because Ron Paul is out of the race, the fact remains that this country has provided the highest standard of living to the largest number of people of any government in any country in any time in history.

This is literally as good as it gets.





That, I have to say, just strikes me as sick.

Your country rounds up people of my culture- people who use drugs- and puts them in prisons, even if we have never harmed another in any way. There is no democratic means provided to change this whatsoever. They exercise their utmost foreign pressure to push all other countries into obedience of this policy, trampling culture and the human right to possess one's own body.

The U.S. is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system. Currently 16% of people in the US would be left to die rather than waste a doctor's valuable time.

This number will obviously increase- 4/5 Americans are less wealthy than their parents.


Quote:


Speak for yourself. The only thing sapping the willpower of the people is a government coddling them, not one smacking them down. I know you think the government is horrible and repressive, but try it someplace else.

Again, better than 95% of the alternatives.





No, worse than any alternative. The government has maliciously imposed a feedback system which ensures the bare minimum will be provided to the populace to see that satisfaction is reached- continuously declining standards at an optimized rate. There is no democracy, only a piece of paper every 4 years with 2 dis-likable names. There are no human rights, only the need to print a name tag reading the word "terrorist" before you are taken to Guantanamo Bay for some good ol' torture without trial.

Quote:


Discounting the thousands of legitimate uses of a gun that happen every day...




In a city?

Generally you're either shooting a target or you're shooting a person. There are surprisingly few game fowl or deer.


--------------------
Know your self.
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153034 - 03/16/08 11:44 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:


Taking guns away from people has never lowered a crime rate. Anywhere. DC has one of the highest murder rates in the country, but no handguns. Your point is moot here. Lets give the people guns and I bet the murder rate goes down.





The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita.

Approximately 70% of the total murders in the US are committed with firearms, vs. about 30% in Canada.

Give people guns to bring the murder rate down? So will they just shoot each other's intention to kill?






crime in Kennsaw hasnt changed and it's mandatory for every head
of household to own a firearm, given that the city has 5 times
the population it did when the law was passed suggests that guns
do indeed prevent crime

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kennesaw&state=GA
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts



guns arent the problem, canadians are

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8153059 - 03/16/08 11:55 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I like how your response is a "statistic" with a sample size of one... and you fail to produce any logic. Even if your "statistic" meant anything, a correlation is not a logical connection.

That's the same way you guys keep the drug war such a success isn't it?

God Bless America.



I guess I have nothing more to say to people like you, pro-gun argumentatives are among the most hard-headed people I have ever spoken to. It's a never ending argument with words, and when the argument does end with someone getting shot, guess who it is?

That's the closest you could ever come to proving you should have the right to have a gun. The dead body who doesn't argue with you any longer.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8153095 - 03/16/08 12:08 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:44 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8153108 - 03/16/08 12:11 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

It a fundamental right of any law abiding citizen, to be able to watch over one's property and safety.




I like the 'law-abiding' part of that. It's a nice disclaimer to say, "You can defend your property so long as you don't possess what we don't want you to have, & you can defend it from other ordinary citizens who threaten what we say you can have, but we will give you life in prison or the death penalty, or more likely kill you on the spot, if you defend your property from us taking it." What a wonderful concept this 'freedom' is.




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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153135 - 03/16/08 12:20 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

That's the closest you could ever come to proving you should have the right to have a gun.




The only thing necessary to prove that I have the right to own a gun is the fact that I have an urge to acquire one and that I do no damage to others in any way other than self-defense.

The only place my rights end is at the point where I begin to intrude on others'.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153186 - 03/16/08 12:35 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

And misfires?
Is your gained ability to easily kill worth the risk of the lives of others who you don't even want to kill?

"Mr. Vice President! You shot him in the face!"

"Oh, sorry"

I don't think there is a fundamental right to have a device useful only for killing. That is a side topic however, not the point that I came to this thread to bring.








I should repeat one more time, you are already fucked for having a gun-free country. Everyone has guns. Now that everyone has guns and no synchronized dismantling process is possible, people should have the right to keep guns. The mistake has already been made, all we can do is deal with the consequences.

But if you have nothing to hide with the way you use your gun, you shouldn't need to hide your gun either. A criminal will be just as hesitant to hold up a store if he thinks he'll be shot in the face with a shotgun as he would be if he thought he'd be shot in the face with a handgun.

The only difference is you can't easily conceal your rifle walking into the store.


--------------------
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The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153223 - 03/16/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

There is no mistake in having a gun free country. Do you actually think having laws that stop people from buying guns from a gun dealer will actually stop someone from acquiring a gun if they really want one? I've seen no research that says that this is true.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153246 - 03/16/08 12:54 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
There is no mistake in having a gun free country. Do you actually think having laws that stop people from buying guns from a gun dealer will actually stop someone from acquiring a gun if they really want one? I've seen no research that says that this is true.




No, I don't think it would stop them completely.
I could go buy a glock for $90 right now if I wanted.

But being in Canada, it sure would be a quick and easy case if the cops found it on me, now wouldn't it?

I doubt that I need to repeat the statistic about the Canadian murder rate/gun murder rate. It's very, very obvious that if you make it easier to get a device that makes it easier to kill- you make it easier to kill. I don't know what sort of research you would want to see.
IF (A = B) & (B = C) THEN (A = C)




I'm not pretending there are magical gun-regulation solutions that will cure all murder. But I am definitely suggesting you need to continue evaluating your fundamentals regarding guns.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153252 - 03/16/08 12:57 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

As do you.

Your stance on gun ownership is as much a reflection of Canadian society as mine is of US society.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153258 - 03/16/08 12:58 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Oh, if you were saying: "there is no research that says people who want guns won't be able to get guns if there is gun regulation in effect"

I agree.

Regulating guns will not prevent people from getting them... look at drugs... black markets will always cater after a certain threshold demand exists.

But what regulating guns will do is prevent people who are just ignorant hooligans from getting guns simply because it's easy and they think it's cool. And they will prevent that same sort of ignorant people from having their sloppy egos lose their temper and doing something they regret.


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The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153365 - 03/16/08 01:30 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
As do you.

Your stance on gun ownership is as much a reflection of Canadian society as mine is of US society.




But in my country, we are seeing success due to our gun policies. Whereas in your country, despite economic prosperity, you are seeing the highest murder rates in the entire world.

Our success in keeping our murder rate down is wavering now however. Why? Partially because of gun availability leaking over the border.

I don't disagree that if killing is your first priority, guns are a great asset. But I am more concerned with preventing murder.

My 'fundamentals' are based on our past success, and trying to regain that success. I say 'fundamentals' because I have no fundamentals, any view or belief I hold will always be subject to applicable logical progress.

When I joined this forum I would have said illegalization of all firearms was wise for the US, I no longer believe that, I now have a view that I feel takes into consideration the current situation more appropriately.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153386 - 03/16/08 01:35 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Whereas in your country, despite economic prosperity, you are seeing the highest murder rates in the entire world.


:lol: Highest murder rates in the world?  Please...  He doesnt live in columbia, south africa, or russia.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153411 - 03/16/08 01:45 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

You really should read more before spewing bullshit.

There are more than 35 countries with a higher murder rate than the US.

Just because you've been brought up to believe the drivel you spew doesn't mean the rest of us are quite as foolish.


Quote:

"Open your mind and in creeps wisdom."




Practice what you preach.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/16/08 01:47 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8153485 - 03/16/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Sorry that was my bad, I meant industrialized world, typo.

I'm still not 100% on that though, let me find where I pulled that statistic from.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153492 - 03/16/08 02:03 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

It's pretty funny that that's your defense though, that your murder rate isn't as high as Columbia's... haha, guess what drives up the Columbian murder rate more than anything else? US drug policy.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153510 - 03/16/08 02:08 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Crime Rates Link

This is where I was reading the industrialized world crime rates info.

Go through it, hopefully you can pick out some more technicalities. You're certainly going to need them if you want to find any holes in my argument...


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153571 - 03/16/08 02:26 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
That's the closest you could ever come to proving you should have the right to have a gun. The dead body who doesn't argue with you any longer.





canadas hand gun crime rate for legally owned firearms is
significantly higher than it is in the US, just because you guys
are irresponsible doesnt make the rest of us bad people

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8153627 - 03/16/08 02:46 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Doesn't that point you made just support the argument that having legal firearms increases murder rates?

I don't see why you would bother wasting your footing on the subject just to make stupid prejudice comments about other nationalities...

In my opinion, American ethics are among the world's worst, but like your opinion of Canadians being bad people- that's all it is, opinion, irrelevant here.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153644 - 03/16/08 02:50 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

American ethics are among the world's worst




And what ethics would those be?

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153669 - 03/16/08 02:58 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Forcing other nations to adopt the same political system as you have?

Attempting to force cultures to abandon cultural cultural practices (like chewing coca leaves) which have been carried on for centuries simply because they do not coincide with your own?

Negating human rights in the name of national safety (Guantanamo Bay)?

Shall I go on?



But why do you even want to bring the conversation here? You seem very immature for a moderator. I'm somewhat surprised.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153682 - 03/16/08 03:02 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Doesn't that point you made just support the argument that having legal firearms increases murder rates?





it simply gos to prove the point that banning guns increase crime rates, canada is a shining example along with england and austrailia

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153689 - 03/16/08 03:04 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

:lol: dude, you have so lost the argument.  Gun rights FTW.  Guns liberate the oppressed and down trodden.

Absolutely nothing Redstorm has said is immature.  You are grasping at straws.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153698 - 03/16/08 03:06 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

1. I agree with you there.
2. The Us doesn't force anyone to do this. If the government of these cultures doesn't have the guts to stand up for their citizens' rights, the citizens should take up the issue with them.
3. I'm not a big fan of Gitmo, but I'm not sure what human rights are being violated. The arrested are prisoners of war.

Quote:

You seem very immature for a moderator. I'm somewhat surprised.




You call me immature in the same sentence you bring an ad hominem to the table? Nice. Could you clarify as to why I am immature? Is it because I don't agree with you?

Also, I'm not a moderator.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153777 - 03/16/08 03:24 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

My god, it has become more than clear that logic comes nowhere NEAR this part of the forum...

You don't know what human rights are violated by torture without trial?

You don't know that I was responding to the moderator when I said "You seem very immature for a moderator."?

You argue that I have lost the argument because I do not support gun rights when I have repeated multiple times that gun rights should be upheld in America?

You say that banning guns increases crime rates because the converse cannot be proven- even though strong statistics have been presented supporting a lower overall murder rate and especially a lower gun murder rate in a situation where firearms are heavily regulated?




Holy fuck guys... I simply cannot believe I am seeing this kind of stupidity here, you guys go on and have your gun party without me, try and aim away from the eyes...

You guys really make me doubt whether I should support this site, I normally see this place as a forum of free exchange of ideas and adult discussion. This thread makes shroomery seem like a grade-school classroom.

This will be my last post in this thread, if you happen to speak to me again PLEASE try and learn a little respect.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8153793 - 03/16/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Discusions like this piss me off

What gets confused is the two questions I see as relevant

1. What does the constitution establish as law?
2. What should the law be?


Now this thread started out discussing what the law is, with the supreme court now considering the extent of the second amendment. Despite this, those opposed to a private right for all citizens, or all citizens not barred from owning firearms by court order, switched the argument to what should the law be, and what is prudent.

Lets consider the law here:

Quote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.





Now does this require an individual right to bear arms? I think it does. Their are two lists of rights, a well-regulated militia (with the appositive relating to the necessity of such for the security of the state); and the "right of the people to keep and bear arms". The predicate establishes the rights re: these two things "shall not be infringed." To me this is clear.


If people want to hagle over what is best, fine. I find it frustrating when I witness people, that otherwise hold the constitution in high esteem, side-stepping the original post and issue here, without clearly identifying their argument as to prudence to be a side-issue, or a an argument for change in law.

So, what do you folks think about what the law is? Lot of discussion about what is best, what it should be, fine. What do people, especially the anti-gun rights crowd, say about this text? And how can they recognize a right of the state to restrict classes of weapons clearly within those indicated by the word "arms" as the word meant at the time of ratificationm and now, with a belief in the sanctity of the prohibition on regulating what speech an activist may make, or what beliefs someone may publish?

Perhaps a sepperate thread should be started for the discussion of whether the second amendment bestows a private right?

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8153849 - 03/16/08 03:40 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

If the Republicans ever decide to split their party and drop all their nasty "Social Conservative" or "Christian Right" bullshit, I'd probably give their party a serious look.

I can get down w/ reforming welfare, or reforming taxes, and capitalism, and guns, and a strong military.

But the Gay-Hating and Anti-Abortion and "Return to the Dark Ages Science Policy" things are deal-breakers. Not to mention that whole "invading innocent countries on sketchy evidence" thing...





madtowntripper, I haven't agreed w/ you much in your recent posts, but this hits the nail on the head

Exactly how I feel, and most of the reason why I don't vote republican for national and  gubernatorial elections.  The issue of their spending is another issue, but I agree.  I don't know if you include the drug war among those things the "social conservatives" endorse, but it does seem like the crazy laws re: drugs are more often originating from the republicans, but maybe this is my own bias.

]]]]

Explosivemango,

good grief.

you've taken this thread off onto a totally different path, with arguments re: what the law should be, rather than what the law is.

In so doing you've amassed a stream of personal attacks and irrelevant, weak data to buttress your opinion.  Give it up.  There's only so many logical fallacies one thread can withstand.


EDIT;

Well, it seems like you've now addressed the issue, so I retract what I said..  But I don't think that earlier talk was productive.  We can be friends :smile:

Edited by johnm214 (03/16/08 03:48 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8153862 - 03/16/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Oh my god, someone who wants to talk like an adult...

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Discusions like this piss me off

What gets confused is the two questions I see as relevant

1. What does the constitution establish as law?
2. What should the law be?


Now this thread started out discussing what the law is, with the supreme court now considering the extent of the second amendment. Despite this, those opposed to a private right for all citizens, or all citizens not barred from owning firearms by court order, switched the argument to what should the law be, and what is prudent.

Lets consider the law here:

Quote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.





Now does this require an individual right to bear arms? I think it does. Their are two lists of rights, a well-regulated militia (with the appositive relating to the necessity of such for the security of the state); and the "right of the people to keep and bear arms". The predicate establishes the rights re: these two things "shall not be infringed." To me this is clear.


If people want to hagle over what is best, fine. I find it frustrating when I witness people, that otherwise hold the constitution in high esteem, side-stepping the original post and issue here, without clearly identifying their argument as to prudence to be a side-issue, or a an argument for change in law.

So, what do you folks think about what the law is? Lot of discussion about what is best, what it should be, fine. What do people, especially the anti-gun rights crowd, say about this text? And how can they recognize a right of the state to restrict classes of weapons clearly within those indicated by the word "arms" as the word meant at the time of ratificationm and now, with a belief in the sanctity of the prohibition on regulating what speech an activist may make, or what beliefs someone may publish?

Perhaps a sepperate thread should be started for the discussion of whether the second amendment bestows a private right?




I think the second amendment does bestow an individual right, and I think because this right was introduced, it should be upheld and not revoked. However, there are already restrictions in place restricting what types of arms the individual may bear- no full automatics, no nuclear weapons, grenade launchers, etc.

I think that removing the most concealable of weapons from the list is an excellent step. Are switchblades legal in the USA? I know we do not have switchblades legal here in Canada, because they are designed to be concealed. Other knives (with limited length) are legal even for self-defense purposes.

I think this is perfectly reasonable, if a person has nothing to hide with their intentions with a weapon, why should they need to hide the weapon?



PS: I still can't believe that this position evoked the type of personal attacks it did, it's just pathetic... thank you for trying to actually put some focus back on the issue at hand...


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153874 - 03/16/08 03:48 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

The old lose and run strategy.

That's always a winner.


--------------------
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153880 - 03/16/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

You came back!

I thought you weren't posting in this thread anymore?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8153895 - 03/16/08 03:54 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:


In so doing you've amassed a stream of personal attacks and irrelevant, weak data to buttress your opinion. Give it up. There's only so many logical fallacies one thread can withstand.




A) I gave my opinion and gave an aside on my first post, any further argument has been entirely responsive.

B) The only logical fallacy was a typing error.



If people don't like my opinions that's fine, they don't have to pursue an argument with them, that's entirely up to them. I will indulge argument about my opinions, but I did not derail this thread. I offered an aside, and responded to attacks.

Quote:


guns arent the problem, canadians are





Quote:


just because you guys
are irresponsible doesnt make the rest of us bad people




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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8153905 - 03/16/08 03:58 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You came back!

I thought you weren't posting in this thread anymore?




I thought it was a room exclusively reserved for 'moral exhibitionism' and prejudice comments. Gets boring after a while. Have a stance on the issue or just more flaming?


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153968 - 03/16/08 04:19 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

You don't know that I was responding to the moderator when I said "You seem very immature for a moderator."?




If that is the case, then why does it say "Re: Redstorm" in the details above your post. You replied to my post. Open mouth, insert foot. You complain about stupidity and then can't even work the quick reply. :wtf:

For someone crying to the moon about personal attacks, immaturity, and flaming, I am seeing quite a bit of all three from you.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8153999 - 03/16/08 04:27 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:



I think the second amendment does bestow an individual right, and I think because this right was introduced, it should be upheld and not revoked. However, there are already restrictions in place restricting what types of arms the individual may bear- no full automatics, no nuclear weapons, grenade launchers, etc.

I think that removing the most concealable of weapons from the list is an excellent step. Are switchblades legal in the USA? I know we do not have switchblades legal here in Canada, because they are designed to be concealed. Other knives (with limited length) are legal even for self-defense purposes.

I think this is perfectly reasonable, if a person has nothing to hide with their intentions with a weapon, why should they need to hide the weapon?





People hide weapons cuz they don't want to be associated with them by the casual observor, and they don't wish to go through the machinations required for a gun to be not concealed.  Either way, I don't think laws mandating no concealed weapons should be allowed, and I don't think you should need a permit to carry.  Like other rights, narrow legislation to remove someone's right to carry should be allowed if the individual is granted a hearing in court, and its not an automatic ban.  Things like automatic bans on weapon possesion for domestic violence defendants are stupid.


If your wearing a jacket, or its winter, its difficult to carry a gun while its not concealed.  If your jacket covers the holster= concealed.  If its in the glovebox of your car= concealed.  If its on a holster on your ankle while your wearing pants in your car= concealed to the officer approaching.

The above is based on the law in my state, but I imagine its similar in most states


Switchblades are prohibited by most codes in the states, I doubt its illegal per federal law. 

The bullshit about the concealed carry statutes is that they usually only apply to guns.  For example, someone could carry a pistol in my state, concealed, if they had a permit, but they'd be subject to arrest if they carried a hunting knife.  This is bullshit

Another interesting argument is that felons should not per se be prohibited from owning guns.  The law says "person" not "non-felon person" and so they should have the ability to own guns.  I don't think a hearing an order from the court requiring someone not to own guns if they have shown themselves to be violent and unstable is neccesarily inconsistant w/ the constitution, though I havne't given it much though.




As for nuclear weapons, I'd cautiously say that these aren't arms in the manner in which the word was understood at the time, therefore aren't protected.  I say caustiosly cuz I don't like applying legislative intent to the analysis of statutes, but I think the word is sufficiently ambiguous to look at what was meant by the word at the time, and even now.

As for automatics, I think these are protected by the 2nd amendment. These are clearly arms in the sense meant at the time.  And contrary to what seems to be understood by you, these are allowed in the US, though the states can prohibit their possesion.  I know someone who owns a fully automatic Uzi w/ plenty of ammo.

The law established a date certain whereby weapons registered by the manufacturer after that date couldn't be transfered to private citizens or buisnesses for possesion without the special permists for law enforcement or other b.s.

The person in my family who owns the uzi had to apply for the permit/license, get the local sherriff to sign that he wasn't under indictment at the moment, and pay approx a 200$ fee.  Now he can carry the Uzi lawfully down the street and its not illegal untill he menaces someone w/ it (i.e. points it at someone).  This is something some of the anti-gun folks aren't aware of.  I imagine they'd shit a brick if they knew a private citizen had a fully automatic uzi w/ tons of amo in his house, and that he can carry it around w/ him as he pleases, as long as he doesn't leave the state- in which case he needs to file his movements w/ the feds and obey the local state prohibitions, if any, on the possesion of automatic weapons.

Quote:



A) I gave my opinion and gave an aside on my first post, any further argument has been entirely responsive.

B) The only logical fallacy was a typing error.



If people don't like my opinions that's fine, they don't have to pursue an argument with them, that's entirely up to them. I will indulge argument about my opinions, but I did not derail this thread. I offered an aside, and responded to attacks.




I was refering in my criticism to your invoking statistics and laying attacks against people, I didn't think this was relevant.  But I took it back in my edited post. :smile:

I do think the arguments regarding what the law should be started w/ you, and you should have disclaimed those arguments as not being relevant to the issue.

Anyways, I'm glad you seem to agree w/ my position :smile:

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8154002 - 03/16/08 04:28 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I always just click reply to the most recent thread. I actually thought you were prisoner#1. Doesn't matter, move on.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8154017 - 03/16/08 04:31 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

You don't know that I was responding to the moderator when I said "You seem very immature for a moderator."?




If that is the case, then why does it say "Re: Redstorm" in the details above your post. You replied to my post. Open mouth, insert foot. You complain about stupidity and then can't even work the quick reply. :wtf:

For someone crying to the moon about personal attacks, immaturity, and flaming, I am seeing quite a bit of all three from you.




/end thread for explosivemango

and no, i don't have anything to add here, redstorm has said it all.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Syle]
    #8154137 - 03/16/08 05:00 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

You don't know that I was responding to the moderator when I said "You seem very immature for a moderator."?




If that is the case, then why does it say "Re: Redstorm" in the details above your post. You replied to my post. Open mouth, insert foot. You complain about stupidity and then can't even work the quick reply. :wtf:

For someone crying to the moon about personal attacks, immaturity, and flaming, I am seeing quite a bit of all three from you.




/end thread for explosivemango

and no, i don't have anything to add here, redstorm has said it all.




so... fuck you too?

pretty retarded of you to make an entry just to flame.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8154158 - 03/16/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Syle said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

You don't know that I was responding to the moderator when I said "You seem very immature for a moderator."?




If that is the case, then why does it say "Re: Redstorm" in the details above your post. You replied to my post. Open mouth, insert foot. You complain about stupidity and then can't even work the quick reply. :wtf:

For someone crying to the moon about personal attacks, immaturity, and flaming, I am seeing quite a bit of all three from you.




/end thread for explosivemango

and no, i don't have anything to add here, redstorm has said it all.




so... fuck you too?

pretty retarded of you to make an entry just to flame.




seemed pretty fitting in my opinion, considering the specific thread and the specific poster within the thread...


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Syle]
    #8154195 - 03/16/08 05:18 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

It seemed fitting for you to flame because of the specific thread?

Sorry, that doesn't really make sense to me.

There's nothing left that me and Red are arguing about, yet it's fitting for you to come in and be an asshole? If you say so I guess...


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8154234 - 03/16/08 05:31 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
It seemed fitting for you to flame because of the specific thread?

Sorry, that doesn't really make sense to me.

There's nothing left that me and Red are arguing about, yet it's fitting for you to come in and be an asshole? If you say so I guess...




yep, it's what i do.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8154357 - 03/16/08 06:07 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:


guns arent the problem, canadians are





Quote:


just because you guys
are irresponsible doesnt make the rest of us bad people








I stand behind these statements as well as the one regarding canada extremely high hand gun crime rates per legal firearm

americas is actually pretty low in comparison

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: johnm214]
    #8154361 - 03/16/08 06:09 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Another interesting argument is that felons should not per se be prohibited from owning guns.





I'm a felon, I'm armed to the teeth, never killed anyone that you'd take notice of

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8154383 - 03/16/08 06:15 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:I stand behind these statements as well as the one regarding canada extremely high hand gun crime rates per legal firearm

americas is actually pretty low in comparison


Do you happen to have a source or link for this off hand? I would like to see it if you do, thx.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8154536 - 03/16/08 06:48 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

This is what I came across:




Quote:


http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/pol-leg/res-eval/other_docs/notes/canus_n_e.asp

The rate of crime involving firearms is much lower in Canada than in the United States.

Firearm homicide rates are 8.1 times higher in the United States than in Canada. For 1987-96, the average firearm homicide rate was 5.7 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 0.7 per 100,000 for Canada.

...


Firearm robbery rates are 3.5 times higher in the United States than in Canada. For 1987-96, the average firearm robbery rate was 91 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 26 per 100,000 in Canada.






Quote:


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080220/statscan_crime_080220/20080220?hub=Canada
"Canada's 2006 firearm homicide rate was nearly six times lower than the United States," the report said.






Quote:


http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011218/d011218b.htm
In 2000, police in the United States reported 5.5 homicides for every 100,000 population-triple the Canadian rate of 1.8. The number of homicides has declined in both countries during the 1990s, particularly south of the border. Two decades ago, the American homicide rate was about four times that of Canada.

About two-thirds of homicides in the United States involved a firearm, compared with one-third in Canada.

...

The American rate of reported robbery was 65% higher than in Canada in 2000, and the difference was much more pronounced with respect to robberies committed with a firearm. In 2000, firearms were involved in 41% of robberies south of the border, compared with only 16% in Canada. Since 1991, police-reported robbery rates have been declining in both countries. During this period, rates fell 47% in the United States-almost twice the 26% decline in Canada.






Quote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada#Violent_crime_in_Canada

The overall homicide rate in Canada declined from 3.1 in 1975 to 1.95 in 2004 while violent crime increased until the 1990s and then declined. The rate of homicide using firearms dropped by 50% over that period while the rate homicide using other methods increased slightly. In 1976 the firearm homicide rate was 0.95 per 100,000 and the non-firearm rate 1.47 per 100,000. As of 2004 the firearm rate was 0.43 per 100,000 to a non-firearm rate of 1.51 per 100,000. This drop in firearm related homicide has meant homicide by melee methods (stabbing, strangulation and beating) always greatly exceed firearm homicides and there have been years where the number of homicides committed with knives alone exceeds those with firearms.

While homicides in Canada has see a moderate drop, the same cannot be said for suicides. The number of suicides by firearm in Canada dropped by 50% from 1,271 in 1977 to 636 in 2003, but non-firearm suicides have risen from 2,046 to 3,116 over the same time frame, an increase of 13%. This translates into a rate of 11.39 per 100,000 (2003).

The total rate of violent death (homicides and suicides) by firearms in 2004 was 2.38 per 100,000 while the total rate of violent death by non-firearm methods was 11.00 per 100,000 for the same year.






Quote:


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447364
The United States has higher rates of firearm ownership than do other developed nations, and higher rates of homicide. Of the 233 251 people who were homicide victims in the United States between 1988 and 1997, 68% were killed with guns,3 of which the large majority were handguns.





-------------------------------

International Homicide Comparisons
Country - Firearm Homicide rate per 100,000

United States - 3.72
Canada - 0.76
England - 0.11
Australia - 0.42

-------------------------------


Quote:


States With Higher Levels of Gun Ownership Have Higher Homicide Rates
For immediate release: January 11, 2007

Boston, MA -- Firearms are used to kill two out of every three homicide victims in America.




Edited by Disco Cat (03/16/08 07:24 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8154604 - 03/16/08 07:08 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Yeah it's pretty easy to see that prisoner is just rattling off his prejudices there. I would say don't bother with him, he's already proven he doesn't have a point other than "Canadians are bad people".

My great grandfather had a gun, he used it to shoot game. It was passed down until my father got it, who gave it up because of new gun control laws that we passed.

The statistic that there are more gun crimes per legally owned gun is a really stupid one to dwell on... it just goes to show that our gun criminals have to get their guns illegally before they use them for crimes.


PS: I'm not really sure why you want to dwell on your prejudices in this thread, we were trying to talk about the handgun ban in DC...

If you want to just post hate messages, you could just start a thread for that...


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8154614 - 03/16/08 07:10 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Disco Cat has the right info, it's very easy to find if you look.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8154655 - 03/16/08 07:20 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Whereas in your country, despite economic prosperity, you are seeing the highest murder rates in the entire world.


:lol: Highest murder rates in the world?  Please...  He doesnt live in columbia, south africa, or russia.




The stat he was probably thinking of is that the US has the highest murder rates in the "industrialized" world.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8155341 - 03/16/08 10:00 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Its quite simple.



Those who dont use the right of of gun ownership, to take away the liberty (or Life) of others, are free to do so. Those who have demonstrated and exploited this right, at the detriment of the society in which they live, should be banned from future grievances.


Please, retort; and cite specific examples of other governments that provide a better methodology for insuring the rights and protections of the individual.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8155388 - 03/16/08 10:08 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Yeah it's pretty easy to see that prisoner is just rattling off his prejudices there. I would say don't bother with him, he's already proven he doesn't have a point other than "Canadians are bad people".

My great grandfather had a gun, he used it to shoot game. It was passed down until my father got it, who gave it up because of new gun control laws that we passed.

The statistic that there are more gun crimes per legally owned gun is a really stupid one to dwell on... it just goes to show that our gun criminals have to get their guns illegally before they use them for crimes.


PS: I'm not really sure why you want to dwell on your prejudices in this thread, we were trying to talk about the handgun ban in DC...

btw.. we arent the only ones with a drug was going... you guys
may be looking at prison time now for what's a small charge here

Quote:

Drug Crimes in Canada in 2006

Drug crimes were up by two percent in Canada in 2006.

Cocaine offences increased 13 percent, a rise of 67 percent since 2002.

Crystal meth drug offences went up eight percent.

Cannabis offences, which make up about 60 percent of all drug offences in Canada, were down four percent in 2006. About 75 percent of cannabis offences were for possession.



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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8155394 - 03/16/08 10:09 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

damned dropped connection... time to retype it

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8155425 - 03/16/08 10:16 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:45 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8155450 - 03/16/08 10:22 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
The statistic that there are more gun crimes per legally owned gun is a really stupid one to dwell on... it just goes to show that our gun criminals have to get their guns illegally before they use them for crimes.




Canada banned firearms and now it's becoming a cesspool of
crime, just look at the last year and the number of shootings by
non-existent guns, your violent crime rates are up, petty crimes
are down bringing down your averages but that's probably because
the small timers are moving to the big league

for other examples have a look at the UK where they're talking
about banning edged weapons and air rifles since those are now
the most common weapons used, Australia is suffereing the same
issues but they're blaming the beer instead of the guns and knives


Quote:

PS: I'm not really sure why you want to dwell on your prejudices in this thread, we were trying to talk about the handgun ban in DC...




I'm just saying bans dont work, look at the way crime has
skyrocketed in DC where the only people that are allowed to
carry guns are law enforcement and politicians, maybe they're
doing all the killing, every state that's standing with "will
issue" on concealed carry permits is seeing a reduced crime rate

how can you try and explain off Kennesaw as an anomaly when the
only thing unusual about the situation is one piece of legislation,
they're population has grown at a faster rate than most other
cities in the US


show us something instead of just spouting your prejudices

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8155502 - 03/16/08 10:34 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:45 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8155555 - 03/16/08 10:44 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Are you justified, philosophically & on principle, in shooting & (possibly) killing the two young men to defend your private property (both the vehicle itself, as well as the land which you own)?





not yet, as my life wouldnt be in immediate danger there's a
good chance I wont be shot or even have the gun pointed at me,
better believe mine will be ready to dump into the guy if the
gun doesnt hit the floor when I command it. this assuming
I have the tactical advantage

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8155898 - 03/17/08 12:34 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

Canada banned firearms and now it's becoming a cesspool of
crime, just look at the last year and the number of shootings by
non-existent guns, your violent crime rates are up, petty crimes
are down bringing down your averages but that's probably because
the small timers are moving to the big league




Canada didn't ban firearms. Also, when overall crime rates are down, and infact the lowest they've been in 25 years, it's hard to make sense of the comment that Canada is becoming a cesspool of crime. Canada's homicide rate also continues to decrease every year, 10% since the previous year's report. US homicide and homicide with a firearm rates greatly surpass Canada's.

Looking at this graph, I think the suggestion that the creation of a gun registry in Canada caused an increase of violent crime is put to rest.


Edited by Disco Cat (03/17/08 12:42 AM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #8156008 - 03/17/08 01:45 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8156235 - 03/17/08 06:11 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

end of thread.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8156305 - 03/17/08 07:02 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

> it's hard to make sense of the comment that Canada is becoming a cesspool of crime.

Watching the changes in Canada's drug laws, it is only a matter of time before she does become a cesspool of crime. Prohibition is the single most efficient method of creating organized crime.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8156426 - 03/17/08 08:38 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Canada's homicide rate also continues to decrease every year, 10% since the previous year's report. US homicide and homicide with a firearm rates greatly surpass Canada's.




right, so you can have one if your an olympic competitor or can show a sporting reason for said firearm, they've banned any means of self defense requiring you to rely solely on the police for 'crime prevention'

Quote:

PROHIBITED FIREARMS, DEVICES, AND WEAPONS

Prohibited firearms, devices, and weapons are:
o full-automatic firearms
o sawed-off rifles or shotguns with barrel length less than 457mm (18 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short barrels
o sawed-off rifles or shotguns with overall length less than 660mm (26 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short stocks or short barrels
o handguns with a barrel less than 105mm (4.14 inches), except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
o handguns in caliber .25 or .32, except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
o silencers
o large capacity magazines for a semi-automatic center-fire firearm. What constitutes "large capacity" varies; as a general rule, the maximum capacity is 5 rounds for long guns, 10 rounds for handguns "commonly found in Canada", and 5 rounds for handguns "not commonly found in Canada." Magazines for rimfire cartridges, the 8-round clips used in the M1 Garand, and 10 round Lee Enfield rifle magazines are exempted by name from this prohibition.
o any of a long list of firearms specifically listed as prohibited. With few exceptions, if it has a remotely military appearance, it is prohibited.
o replicas of firearms
o any type of Taser or other firearm that discharges a dart or other object carrying an electrical current.
o tear gas, Mace or other gas, or any liquid spray, power or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person
o any type of stun gun or other electrical charge device of length less than 480mm






Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Looking at this graph, I think the suggestion that the creation of a gun registry in Canada caused an increase of violent crime is put to rest.




looking at the graph I'd say someone is just trying to claim canada is a safer place


Quote:

Serious Violent Crimes in Canada in 2006

The number of most serious violent crimes increased in 2006, including attempted murders, aggravated assaults, and assaults with a weapon/causing bodily harm.

The rate of robberies rose six percent, and about one out of every eight robberies involved a firearm.



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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8156440 - 03/17/08 08:48 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

criminals are criminals, banning handguns will only make it cheaper and easier for a criminal to obtain a pistol.

do drug laws stop you from smoking pot and growing shrooms?

do little black and white signs stop you from doing 80 in a 65?

if we really want to see crime rates go down, every state needs to make it legal for non felons to carry a concealed pistol.

when is the last time you heard of someone getting jumped at knife point at the ATM machine in Dallas Texas?

Thats right you haven't.

saying more guns = more criminals is like saying more pencils = more poets.

I dont have a PhD, I dint even have a single college credit. but at least I have good ole fashioned common sense.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

Edited by Psychoslut (03/17/08 09:01 AM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8156479 - 03/17/08 09:04 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I believe you're right, if we ban pencils, we could rid our selves of emo kids everywhere

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8156494 - 03/17/08 09:09 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

pencils?

dont you mean pearing knives?


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8156877 - 03/17/08 11:13 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

The US has always had a higher crime in the Anglosphere countries. Even before Gun laws at the turn of the century.

LOL@that Canadian chart.... thats like Iceland banning guns then making a chart comparing it to the US and saying SEE IT WORKED!

Why don't you make a chart with Jamaica and the US. they have been completly "gun free" for almost 40 years.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8157170 - 03/17/08 12:27 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Depending on someone else to protect you is like saying its OK to hit a tree at 120 miles an hour because your Honda civic has state of the art air bags.


I'm sure there are thousands of gangster disciples running around Chicago right now saying oh my fucking god what are we going to do when the new gun laws come into effect.

yeah. :smirk:


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8157197 - 03/17/08 12:33 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

I'm sure there are thousands of gangster disciples running around Chicago right now saying oh my fucking god what are we going to do when the new gun laws come into effect.




Exactly.





Guns don't kill people. Idealogy kills people

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Seuss]
    #8157310 - 03/17/08 12:57 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> it's hard to make sense of the comment that Canada is becoming a cesspool of crime.

Watching the changes in Canada's drug laws, it is only a matter of time before she does become a cesspool of crime. Prohibition is the single most efficient method of creating organized crime.




You mean proposed changes. We have yet to see whether the Conservatives drug plans will pass, and there's a good chance they won't. Hopefully the Conservatives are also on their way out.

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8157313 - 03/17/08 12:57 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

buckwheat said:
The US has always had a higher crime in the Anglosphere countries. Even before Gun laws at the turn of the century.

LOL@that Canadian chart.... thats like Iceland banning guns then making a chart comparing it to the US and saying SEE IT WORKED!

Why don't you make a chart with Jamaica and the US. they have been completly "gun free" for almost 40 years.




That's a stupid thing to say when the stats are reinforced universally in Canadian and US reports, and even more so when the same post with the graph included US numbers that reinforced the graph.


Look at US homicide rates here:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8157345 - 03/17/08 01:06 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Canada's homicide rate also continues to decrease every year, 10% since the previous year's report. US homicide and homicide with a firearm rates greatly surpass Canada's.



right, so you can have one if your an olympic competitor or can show a sporting reason for said firearm, they've banned any means of self defense requiring you to rely solely on the police for 'crime prevention'




"Although firearms laws are all officially controlled by the federal government which should create an identical situation across the country, the role of provincial governments in implementing those laws complicates this matter. Bill C-68 makes it a criminal offense to possess an unregistered firearm or possess a firearm without a licence, but prosecution under the bill is the jurisdiction of provincial crown prosecutors.[citation needed] For reasons of cost or public opinion all provinces except Quebec have refused to prosecute people for these charges effectively nullifying the law for simple possession offenses."


"8 Provinces have refused to prosecute people for violating the Firearms Act(Registration), these are Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, British Columbia, Newfoundland, Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada



Quote:

PROHIBITED FIREARMS, DEVICES, AND WEAPONS

Prohibited firearms, devices, and weapons are:
o full-automatic firearms
o sawed-off rifles or shotguns with barrel length less than 457mm (18 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short barrels
o sawed-off rifles or shotguns with overall length less than 660mm (26 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short stocks or short barrels
o handguns with a barrel less than 105mm (4.14 inches), except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
o handguns in caliber .25 or .32, except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
o silencers
o large capacity magazines for a semi-automatic center-fire firearm. What constitutes "large capacity" varies; as a general rule, the maximum capacity is 5 rounds for long guns, 10 rounds for handguns "commonly found in Canada", and 5 rounds for handguns "not commonly found in Canada." Magazines for rimfire cartridges, the 8-round clips used in the M1 Garand, and 10 round Lee Enfield rifle magazines are exempted by name from this prohibition.
o any of a long list of firearms specifically listed as prohibited. With few exceptions, if it has a remotely military appearance, it is prohibited.
o replicas of firearms
o any type of Taser or other firearm that discharges a dart or other object carrying an electrical current.
o tear gas, Mace or other gas, or any liquid spray, power or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person
o any type of stun gun or other electrical charge device of length less than 480mm





That list is pretty similar to US' prohibited guns list, which is a world apart from banning firearms. In Canada there is also a possible license for prohibited firearms.




Quote:


Quote:


Disco Cat said:
Looking at this graph, I think the suggestion that the creation of a gun registry in Canada caused an increase of violent crime is put to rest.



looking at the graph I'd say someone is just trying to claim canada is a safer place




Then you misunderstand. Take another look.
The graph shows Canada's violent crime rate to be higher than in the US, but shows that Canada's growth and peak of violent crime occured before gun registry was in place.


Quote:

Serious Violent Crimes in Canada in 2006

The number of most serious violent crimes increased in 2006, including attempted murders, aggravated assaults, and assaults with a weapon/causing bodily harm.
The rate of robberies rose six percent, and about one out of every eight robberies involved a firearm.




However, in the US 1 in every 3 robbieries involve a firearm. And as stated, homicides and overall crime are down in Canada.

If you're trying to argue that Canada is not safer than the US, which is something I wasn't even thinking about, then you're very wrong. But I really don't care, and that wasn't my point at all.

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InvisiblePsychoslut
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8157372 - 03/17/08 01:13 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

However, in the US 1 in every 3 robberies involve a firearm.



what are you trying to say sir? that armed robbers shouldn't have the right to protect themselves from the gas station clerk who might have a pistol?

that would be fucked up for the defenseless robber to get shot. :lol:

am i pretty good at sounding like a democrat or what?

you can call me AL gore from here on out.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8157376 - 03/17/08 01:14 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
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Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8157408 - 03/17/08 01:21 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I was talking about for Canada.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8157428 - 03/17/08 01:25 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> it's hard to make sense of the comment that Canada is becoming a cesspool of crime.

Watching the changes in Canada's drug laws, it is only a matter of time before she does become a cesspool of crime. Prohibition is the single most efficient method of creating organized crime.




You mean proposed changes. We have yet to see whether the Conservatives drug plans will pass, and there's a good chance they won't. Hopefully the Conservatives are also on their way out.



Well if thats the case, gun rights are in serious jeopardy IMO.

A house full of democrats, and a democrat president will mean gun control bills being drafted and passed, and serious increases in funding for drug enforcement and criminal justice budgets which will mean lengthy prison terms for drugs.
IMO.




thats OK i guess. anyone that forcefully trys to take my guns will have to shoot me or be shot.

and thats when 5 million pissed off Americans load there 4x4s with guns and ammunition and head to the white house.

that would be funner than a day in a basstracker with a case of beer.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8157438 - 03/17/08 01:29 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Thats what gets me when people claim the government is coming for their guns.

In all honesty, most people would give theirs up.

But do you know how many guns there are here!? And how many people would love a reason to shoot it out w/ the government?

It would be completely ineffectual.

In that way, the second amendment is self-protecting.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8157448 - 03/17/08 01:31 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

the ones who will give up there guns are the ones who deserve no freedom or liberty. i will pile them up and use them to stop bullets.


i think i like you.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8157800 - 03/17/08 03:10 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

buckwheat said:
The US has always had a higher crime in the Anglosphere countries. Even before Gun laws at the turn of the century.

LOL@that Canadian chart.... thats like Iceland banning guns then making a chart comparing it to the US and saying SEE IT WORKED!

Why don't you make a chart with Jamaica and the US. they have been completly "gun free" for almost 40 years.




That's a stupid thing to say when the stats are reinforced universally in Canadian and US reports, and even more so when the same post with the graph included US numbers that reinforced the graph.


Look at US homicide rates here:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm




Do you understand what i said?

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8157856 - 03/17/08 03:23 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoslut said:
when is the last time you heard of someone getting jumped at knife point at the ATM machine in Dallas Texas?

Thats right you haven't.





You're right, that only happens in Canada I guess. In Texas it's gun point.

The difference?

If a group of 5 people interrupts the hold up in Canada you have a situation that ends quickly. In Texas you have a pile of bodies. :thumbup:


--------------------
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Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8157867 - 03/17/08 03:26 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

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Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8157906 - 03/17/08 03:37 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Actually I have a friend who was beaten nearly to death by buglars who broke into his house with melee weapons... the only reason he wasn't beaten to death was because some of his friends showed up- unarmed.

Numbers wouldn't have been much good if the burglars had firearms.



PS: you clearly don't live here, combat has a totally different dynamic when firearms are very rare.

They're not non-existent, just rare. But it saves a lot of lives, no question about it.

I'm not going to say it creates less criminals, or it solves all the worlds problems. But it without question saves lives.

We have our share of idiots up here, I know a person who was angry and stupid enough to go out in the open in broad daylight and hit another with a baseball bat. Guess what would have happened if that person had a gun? You don't need to guess.


--------------------
Know your self.
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8158139 - 03/17/08 04:44 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Thanks for the chart showing Canada has a higher rate of violent crime. A Canadian rate of 1000/100000 as opposed to a US rate of 500/100000 seems to indicate to me that the US is statistically safer. Perhaps it's all the guns. Interviews with people in jail have shown for years that the criminals fear armed homeowners.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"What we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit." ("More Permits Mean Less Crime..." Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996, Monday, p. B-5)

John Lott and David Mustard, in connection with the University of Chicago Law School, examining crime statistics from 1977 to 1992 for all U.S. counties, concluded that the thirty-one states allowing their residents to carry concealed, had significant reductions in violent crime. Lott writes, "Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats... While support for strict gun-control laws usually has been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes."

(Source: "More Guns, Less Violent Crime", Professor John R. Lott, Jr., The Wall Street Journal, August 28, 1996, (The Rule of Law column).
-------------------------------------------------

August 26, 2007
Ministers 'covered up' gun crime
David Leppard

THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998.

The Home Office figures - which exclude crimes involving air weapons - show the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun attacks in England and Wales soared from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-06. That means that more than 10 people are injured or killed in a gun attack every day.

This weekend the Tories said the figures challenged claims by Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, that gun crime was falling. David Davis, the shadow home secretary, tells her in a letter today that the “staggering findings” show her claims that gun crime has fallen are “inaccurate and misleading”.

The political row erupted as Merseyside police continued to question a 15-year-old boy about the murder last week of Rhys Jones in Croxteth, Liver-pool. The 11-year-old was returning from football training when he was shot by a hooded teenager on a bicycle.
How worried should we be about gun crime?

Serious gun crime is concentrated in particular parts of England; internationally, the country has a low death rate from guns
Background

Experts are examining a BMX bike abandoned in another area of the city. Six other teenagers, including two girls, from the Croxteth and Norris Green areas were in custody last night. Two others have been released on bail.

Senior officers believe Rhys died because he walked into the line of fire between the gunman and his intended target, who is thought to have been one of three teenagers 30-70 yards away.

Bernard Hogan-Howe, the chief constable of Merseyside, said yesterday: “We still need help in solving this crime. We need witnesses who are prepared to stand up in court.”

Hogan-Howe said he had invested “a huge amount of policing” into the gang-related problems in the Croxteth area and had had a great deal of success.

A minute’s applause was held yesterday at Goodison Park stadium where Everton, the team Rhys loved, were playing Black-burn Rovers. The 11-year-old’s murder has led to a public outcry against Britain’s gang and gun culture and a furious political debate about the government’s efforts to tackle the problem.

Smith last night proposed the setting up of neutral “drop-off zones” where illegal weapons could be handed in. “This means we can actually take that gun out of circulation and stop it from doing harm,” she said.

The Home Office has repeatedly denied gun crime is rising. Last week it pointed to the latest annual crime statistics, which appeared to show that overall gun crime was 13% down on the previous year.

But in his letter to Smith, released today, Davis said these claims were contradicted by figures “buried” in a Home Office statistical bulletin, published ear-lier this year. “[Here] we find the most revealing indication of the true gun-re-lated violence sweeping Britain. Gun-related killings and injuries (excluding air weapons) have increased over fourfold since 1998,” he wrote.

The Home Office said: "We remain fully committed to tackling gang culture and gun and knife crime through responsive policing, tough powers and funding prevention projects."

Rhys’s killing fell on the anniversary of the fatal shooting of Liam Smith, a senior figure in a local gang known as the Strand Gang. Several members of the rival Croxteth Crew were found guilty of his murder.

Locals had said they believed members of the Strand Gang were planning a reprisal shooting to mark the anniversary.

“We always deploy additional resources around these anniversaries,” said Chief Superintendent Chris Armitt. “But we are over half a mile here from Croxteth, and Norris Green is further away again. The additional resources [were] focused only where gangs predominantly operate.”

Extract from letter by David Davis, shadow home secretary, to Jacqui Smith, home secretary, August 24, 2007

Dear Jacqui, We are all concerned at the rising tide of violent crime that has manifested itself this week in a spate of shocking killings, including the tragic death of young Rhys Jones. You told GMTV this morning that “statistics aren’t a help but gun crime is down”. That is an extraordinary claim.

According to Home Office figures, gun crime (excluding air weapons) has almost doubled since Labour took office. The annual crime figures, released by the Home Office in July, suggest a 13% decrease on the previous year, which neglects the 18% increase in firearm homicides.

However, perhaps most telling is the massive increase in gun violence, disclosed on 25 January of this year (Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2005-06, Home Office). Buried at page 36 . . . we find [that] . . . gun-related killings and injuries (excluding airguns) have increased by over fourfold since 1998.

In light of this information, your claim that gun crime is down is both inaccurate and misleading. One clear fact on gun-related violence is that if you don’t count it, you won’t be able to tackle it. Your predecessors opted for spin over substance. I hope that is a path you will avoid and would be grateful for an explanation of what action you plan.

Yours sincerely, David Davis
--------------------------------

What is the Canadian upswing in 1999 attributed to?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158158 - 03/17/08 04:51 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Actually I have a friend who was beaten nearly to death by buglars who broke into his house with melee weapons... the only reason he wasn't beaten to death was because some of his friends showed up- unarmed.

Numbers wouldn't have been much good if the burglars had firearms.



If he had a gun he may not have been beaten at all.



Quote:

PS: you clearly don't live here, combat has a totally different dynamic when firearms are very rare.



No shit? Call the media! EDIT: Yes it does. The weak and meak can't defend themselves so criminals have less fear..

Quote:

They're not non-existent, just rare. But it saves a lot of lives, no question about it.



Merely saying no question about it doesn't make the statement any less absurd.

Quote:

I'm not going to say it creates less criminals, or it solves all the worlds problems. But it without question saves lives.



Same comment.

Quote:

We have our share of idiots up here, I know a person who was angry and stupid enough to go out in the open in broad daylight and hit another with a baseball bat. Guess what would have happened if that person had a gun? You don't need to guess.



Guess what would have happened had he a knife, or an axe, or a car bumper?

You have a rather funny view of the world.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/17/08 05:28 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158233 - 03/17/08 05:10 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Numbers wouldn't have been much good if the burglars had firearms.






melee weapons wouldnt have done much good against a firearm

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8158519 - 03/17/08 06:17 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

The most ironic part is that the guy who had his home broken into does carry (illegally). (Not that it's particularly relevant, he might have killed the intruders)

He went to answer the door. He didn't have a chance to get to his gun.

I think the fact that those stats are showing a higher violent crime rate in Canada (keeping in mind we have a murder rate 2.5 times lower than yours, with half as many being caused by firearms) proves my point perfectly.

We may not be able to keep our violent crime under control any better than you, but we sure do a fucking lot better keeping people alive. :thumbup:

If the rates are twice as high per capita here for violent crime and 2.5 times lower for murder... I'd say we do right about five times as well as you guys at saving lives. :thumbup:



I know it might come as a shock to you, being in the nation that supports the notion of putting yourself beyond others more than any other- but in the long run, I think I would rather be injured by and lose property to a criminal than have anyone die.

I'm just not self righteous enough to want to take their life...


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158539 - 03/17/08 06:21 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158563 - 03/17/08 06:27 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
The most ironic part is that the guy who had his home broken into does carry (illegally).





you prove my point perfectly about canada and the increased trend
in violence and the fact the there's so many criminals

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158579 - 03/17/08 06:30 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

PS: I should mention I do have a pair of tonfas, I'd be happy to defend myself with them, breaking every limb I see. Just not ending a life.

If he has a gun?

Sucks to be me I guess. But if I die, I am willing to to save 5 lives, even if 3 of those 5 "don't deserve to live as much as me".


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8158590 - 03/17/08 06:32 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Many criminals commit low key home invasions and will torture and kill someone to obtain assets and kill to leave no witness.




You're right... 5 times as many in the US compared to Canada. It seems to me like when killing is that much easier, it's just more normal.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8158613 - 03/17/08 06:38 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
you prove my point perfectly about canada and the increased trend
in violence and the fact the there's so many criminals




And you proved mine about putting yourself before others more than any other nation.

If you ever want to take care of that ego, I know some mushrooms you could talk to..!




It seems that you can insult my point of view all you like- that human life is the most important thing- but you will still be forced to accept the fact that the price you pay for your "protection" is an exceedingly high killing rate.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158638 - 03/17/08 06:45 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158647 - 03/17/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

All this talk about gun rights vs violent crime is completely ignoring half the reason for gun rights... protection from tyranny. When the population is not armed there is no checks and balances against a tyrannical government. I say that even if having an armed population causes more violent crime, its worth it to maintain a check against a tyrannical government either at home or a foreign one.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8158660 - 03/17/08 06:52 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
The US has 5 times the population as Canada?
And I'm not insulting you, I'm merely debating my POV in this matter.




I appreciate that you are being respectful.

The US has around 10 times the population of Canada, about 5 times as much violent crime, and around 25 times more murders. (total figures)

one half the (reported) violent crime per capita, yet 2.5 times the murder rate.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8158684 - 03/17/08 06:56 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
All this talk about gun rights vs violent crime is completely ignoring half the reason for gun rights... protection from tyranny. When the population is not armed there is no checks and balances against a tyrannical government. I say that even if having an armed population causes more violent crime, its worth it to maintain a check against a tyrannical government either at home or a foreign one.




If your people could keep the government in check with those firearms, I might be more favorable toward gun ownership.


As I see it now- America has no other choice but to allow gun ownership for the time being, they are just too proliferant, and they have no means to disarm the criminals. I see steps that allow the law abiding to keep powerful (but less frequently criminal) weapons, but to start removing easily concealable weapons (which are much more criminally useful) as good steps.

The government has already taken away your rights to heavy arms and automatics, IMO the populace would be completely impotent against a thousand M1A1s with or without handguns.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158688 - 03/17/08 06:57 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
you prove my point perfectly about canada and the increased trend
in violence and the fact the there's so many criminals




And you proved mine about putting yourself before others more than any other nation.




yer damned skippy I do, fuck all the meth monkeys and child
molesters, the rapists and murders, kill every last one of them
and send a message, Canada, we're just gonna take it any more!!!

:smirk:

the lives of my children, my family, myself and even those 'innocents' around me are more important that anyone that
decides to waive a gun around so senselessly


Quote:

the price you pay for your "protection" is an exceedingly high killing rate.




population control, how many of these 'murdered' were criminals
themselves... how many were assaulting someone when their
victim decided to exercise their rights to continue living

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158695 - 03/17/08 06:58 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I'm not sure we bother to argue, it's clear that none of us are going to change our views here. It is nice to have people forced to hear my opinions however, and it is nice to see that the people I disagree with have logic behind their opinions.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8158707 - 03/17/08 07:02 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the lives of my children, my family, myself and even those 'innocents' around me are more important that anyone that
decides to waive a gun around so senselessly





Yep. I guess we might as well leave it at that. Just make sure your finger doesn't twitch, I think you'd be surprised how easily you could slide into that definition.


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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158739 - 03/17/08 07:09 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:


The government has already taken away your rights to heavy arms and automatics,




No they haven't.

btw not one legal automatic weapon has ever been used in a crime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31vm3-BQRJU

Edited by buckwheat (03/17/08 07:19 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8158778 - 03/17/08 07:18 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

p

Edited by buckwheat (03/17/08 07:19 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158796 - 03/17/08 07:22 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Just make sure your finger doesn't twitch




I have experience with abnormal situations, as long as
the other guy doesnt do anything to make me twitch then
he'll have nothing to worry about

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8158809 - 03/17/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Pretty fucking sweet vid, lol.

It's funny, I have a lot of respect for guns as mechanical devices, as an engineer etc.

I guess I just believe one day sometime in the future we may not need them anymore, and I want to keep any progress we may have toward that day.


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8158899 - 03/17/08 07:40 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

It would pretty much require a true police state to get rid of a black market of weapons . And i say weapons because there are alternatives like airguns. If there is demand there will always be guns. The problem is people mistake a lack of demand as gun control working. Not that complicated to make a gun id say it's as easy as making meth.



Worthwhile read on the subject


A world without guns

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8158953 - 03/17/08 07:56 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Yeah it is very easy to get/make guns.

I actually made a grenade launcher via PVC pipes KNO3 charcoal and sulfur at the age of 13...

But the converse of what you said I feel is also true- 'if there is a demand there will always be guns'

If there is no demand, there will eventually be no guns. Having guns illegal drives down the demand- unlike drugs, guns have a large degree of self perpetuation, if the other guy has a gun you pretty much need a gun to protect yourself. If the other guy is less likely to have a gun you are less likely to need a gun.

(That's why I think we have it better here with guns heavily controlled, and why I think guns should remain legal in the US for the time being.)


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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8159117 - 03/17/08 08:33 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Having guns illegal drives down the demand- unlike drugs





prohibition creates more demand, think about the friend you claims
has one illegally, your grenade launcher, the ones used in all
your crimes in canada... hell look at DC, New York and Chicago

the demand increases, just not all from law abiding citizens

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8159173 - 03/17/08 08:44 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Chemy said:
The US has 5 times the population as Canada?
And I'm not insulting you, I'm merely debating my POV in this matter.




I appreciate that you are being respectful.

The US has around 10 times the population of Canada, about 5 times as much violent crime, and around 25 times more murders. (total figures)

one half the (reported) violent crime per capita, yet 2.5 times the murder rate.



as long as your throwing out numbers and stats...
...how much of that/many of those crimes involved guns?

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: California]
    #8159290 - 03/17/08 09:04 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

The violent crime overall I do not have a stat for how much involves guns, the murders in Canada are 30-35% due to firearms depending where you read, in the US murders are 60-70% due to firearms.

That's an interesting anti-gun article... it seems to reinforce the point that I've made that in all practicality it is too late to make firearms outright illegal in the US. There is already a gun vacuum.




But the big question is- why are we so successful here in Canada with preventing firearm related murder- even in a more violently criminal nation?

Do people think there would be a benefit to Canada to make guns more legally available?

The stats we seem to have going are:

Canada:US

Violent crime per capita-
2:1

Murder rate per capita-
1:2.5

Gun murder rate per murder-
30:60

That is an alarming
((30*1)/2):((60*2.5)/1)
or
15:150
or
1:10

rate of gun murders to violent crimes in Canada vs the US.

Do people think this rate can really be improved for Canada by making firearms more readily available for the law abiding? How can this rate be improved for the US?


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Edited by ExplosiveMango (03/17/08 09:30 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8159493 - 03/17/08 09:51 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/16/16 10:06 AM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8159503 - 03/17/08 09:52 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
How can this rate be improved for the US?



Easy... end prohibition, fortify the border, life in prison for violent crimes, no prison for non-violent crimes.

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: DieCommie]
    #8159571 - 03/17/08 10:03 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
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Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8159647 - 03/17/08 10:19 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
In America we defend your right to express your views, no matter how horrid, and the average citizen will defend your right to say them. We have freedom of speech. In Canada political correctness and the feelings 'oppressed' groups have greater precedence than free speech. Canada does not have free speech.





Sorry man, but that is just complete bull.

Privacy is one of the most important parts of free speech. Your border guards have the right to search any computer system or personal communication system at the border without a warrant. They have the right to completely copy all data files on a laptop without even probably cause.

Canadian lawyers traveling across the border are forced to clear their hard drives because of how little privacy you have.

There is a case that comes to mind, when a middle eastern man said his suitcase might explode- he was not English and he very quickly clarified that it was over-filled with clothing. It took more than 24 hours of 'interrogation' before they felt he knew what he could or could not say well enough.

Quote:

In America economic freedom is preferred and we like to keep as much of our money as possible and spend it how we choose (individualistic).




Economic freedom in what sense? Economic freedom in that you are free to be part of a larger proportion of poorer people? We have the same economic freedoms here in Canada, but if you say... lose your economic edge due to getting jailed for using the wrong drug, you won't become so poor that your doctors will watch you die.

Economic freedom to be too poor to live.

Quote:

In Canada they like to have the government take their money and choose how to spend it for them (communal).




So you support your tax money going toward preventing your drug use?

Quote:

In America the right of an individual to use deadly force to protect his/her life, liberty and property is assumed to be inalienable.




We have the very same right, we simply do not have the need to keep a deadly weapon in every household, because we realize that there is such thing as making it too easy to kill.

Quote:

They are assumed to be inherent and cannot be taken away no matter how good it feels, or how logical it seems. The individual retains that right no matter what the community thinks. In Canada the community trumps the individual and if the community feels bad about burglars getting shot, then the individual losses the right to shot burglars. Its just a difference of culture, and these cultural differences should be respected. I dont very much care for Canadian culture, but you can live your life the way you want. Why should you feel compelled to change our culture? There are already dozens and dozens of Canadian style governments/cultures where the community is favored over the individual, I dont want my country to be one of them.




It's funny that your country does such a good job of fostering the belief that the individual still has any power... how long has your majority wanted to be out of Iraq?

Do you think a referendum would retain the current marijuana laws?

Why do you think only 10% of people vote?

I mean... I know Americans love to love themselves, but don't just go around saying stupid, insulting shit like "we have freedom of speech and you don't". Freedom to speak the loudest and not listen to anyone else is not everyone's definition of free speech.





Why should we feel compelled to change your culture?

There's one world.

That 30% of the wealth that your 5% of the population holds is the same 30% that keeps half the world in poverty.

Edit: And with that 30% of the entire globe's wealth, you don't even have the courtesy to save the lives of your own. If you're an American, you're rich, or you're worthless.

It's sickening how stupid one can get when all he can hear is himself screaming into an echo chamber.


--------------------
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

Edited by ExplosiveMango (03/17/08 10:28 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8159682 - 03/17/08 10:25 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I wasn't aware that it was possible for me to disagree with one person about so many things.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8159701 - 03/17/08 10:30 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

I think you'd find if you ever looked outside your country, you'd find you disagree with about 4.5 billion people about so many things.


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Offlinepunkhardcore92
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8160689 - 03/18/08 04:03 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

WOW this thread is obscene.

First off, Guns kill people the way pencils misspell words. As in they cant.

2ndly, In countries like Australia and Japan where you are not allowed to OWN a gun a NEW Form of crime has occurred called home invasion where they come into your house and stab your ass and steal your shit because they know you have no means to protect yourself.

3rd. ANYONE who is willing to give up there civil liberties for a bit of FALSE security is a fuckin moron.

4th. GUN CONTROL is the biggest crock of shit ever, The question is who gets the gun, CRIMINALS DONT OBEY LAWS, passing more insane laws to prevent insane people from doing insaine things is nothing BUT INSAINE!!!!!


5th. THE GOVERMENT NEEDS TO BE AFRAID OF ITS OWN PEOPLE, ALL THEY CAN TAKE IS WHAT WE GIVE THEM, ALL OUR RIGHTS ARNT WORTH THE PARCHMENT THEY ARE WRITTEN ON IF YOU TAKE AWAY THE GUNS BECASUE THEN WE HAVE NO MEANS TO OVERTHROW THE TYRANNICAL STATE GOVERMENT THAT OUR FOUNDING FATHERS TRIED TO WARN US ABOUT BECASUE THEY KNOW THE WAY THEIR SYSTEM COULD BE ABUSED>

we are an oppressed populace, we are enslaved into credit, batteries in a questionably legal federal reserve system.


SO yeah

Gun control



Video started my beliefs.

PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
http://video.google.com/url?docid=864268000924014458&esrc=sr2&ev=v&len=5549&q=prison%2Bindustrial%2Bcomplex&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D864268000924014458&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D864268000924014458%26q%3Dprison%2Bindustrial%2Bcomplex%26total%3D112%26start%3D0%26num%3D10%26so%3D0%26type%3Dsearch%26plindex%3D1&usg=AL29H20etLLNyaD2NKw2SzfJ6b70CqQvYw

WHY WE FIGHT - MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
http://video.google.com/url?docid=3405669348838274375&esrc=sr1&ev=v&len=5921&q=why%2Bwe%2Bfight&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D3405669348838274375&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D3405669348838274375%26q%3Dwhy%2Bwe%2Bfight%26total%3D43890%26start%3D0%26num%3D10%26so%3D0%26type%3Dsearch%26plindex%3D0&usg=AL29H20i-5_clIysEsQTKCGY_yThDeDVSw

FREEDOM TO FASCISM (the director obviously doesn’t know how to shoot a credible documentary but makes some very well known arguments) http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=199


at the end of this video you see the military coming to Katrina’s victims front doors confiscating there guns... oh wait... what did Thomas Jefferson say??? Something akin to "the funny thing about the second amendment is the American people wont ever need to use it until the government tries to take it away from them" and guess what!! That’s what happening, INCREMENTALLY


Guncontrol2008.com shows how its almost like an unspoken thing that all the candidates in the 2008 election are for gun control, perhaps this is the year Americans loose everything. Or something is happening and we all feel it in our bones.



and that keeping a gun in the house makes it too easy to kill bullshit? people have been killing without guns for thousands of years, keep lying to yourself, its just as easy to kill someone with a knife or your car, perhaps you've never even really ever SHOT a gun, i would hate to assume your mislead on how reliable guns are and how accurate they are.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

Edited by punkhardcore92 (03/18/08 04:06 AM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8160845 - 03/18/08 06:29 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Easy... end prohibition, fortify the border, life in prison for violent crimes, no prison for non-violent crimes.





you might like the thought of supporting rapists, killers and
pedophiles for the remainder of their lives but I dont, lets
change allow people a chance for rehabilitation, many violent
offenders are simply guilty of things like fighting, give them a
few years and cut them lose, execute those that destroy lives or
take them

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8160878 - 03/18/08 06:41 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I wasn't aware that it was possible for me to disagree with one person about so many things.





it's easy to go through life hiding under mothers skirt, not
having a chance to see the real world, being told what to believe
and how to believe it... canadians are no different than hippies
in the regard that they believe in freedoms as long as it fits
within they're belief, once you venture out from what they see as
the way things should be, they want to strip you of your freedoms

it's fascism

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8160883 - 03/18/08 06:42 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

You are surprisingly insightful today.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8160893 - 03/18/08 06:49 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

I am every day, I just dont always share

I'm all mycotopia like that :smirk:

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8161261 - 03/18/08 09:14 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

his account was clearly hacked.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8161768 - 03/18/08 11:06 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)


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Offlinepunkhardcore92
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8162718 - 03/18/08 03:34 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Still though you people need to watch that penn and teller bullshit episode i posted. SUPER educational and gives all kinds of perspective.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8162949 - 03/18/08 04:33 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)







--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlinepunkhardcore92
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: afoaf]
    #8163024 - 03/18/08 04:49 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Good job! i posted it on the previous page and still no one has commented on it probably becasue they dotn want to invest the time to watch it.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8163066 - 03/18/08 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

I love Penn and Teller.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8163468 - 03/18/08 06:31 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I wasn't aware that it was possible for me to disagree with one person about so many things.





it's easy to go through life hiding under mothers skirt, not
having a chance to see the real world, being told what to believe
and how to believe it... canadians are no different than hippies
in the regard that they believe in freedoms as long as it fits
within they're belief, once you venture out from what they see as
the way things should be, they want to strip you of your freedoms

it's fascism




Laughable child.

Fascism is having the right to vote the guns into the hands of only those willing to register them?

Fascism is being responsible to pay taxes to keep the less fortunate alive?

Fascism is a country where we do not allow torture or murder as punishment for political crimes?

Fascism is a leadership you are either with or against.

Fascism is having your phone tapped without a warrant.

Fascism is having your entire hard drive copied without a warrant.

Fascism is a long history of slavery and racism.

Fascism is being imprisoned indefinitely without trial under the excuse of a war against no nation.

Fascism is happily accepting the deaths of thousands of innocents as collateral when you bring your "democracy" across the world to combat "terrorism".


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8163481 - 03/18/08 06:36 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

PS: I also like Penn and Teller.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8163825 - 03/18/08 07:58 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Fascism is having the right to vote the guns into the hands of only those willing to register them?

Fascism is having to register your guns so the government can
pick them up at their leisure, preventing 'civil unrest' from
getting out of hand are removing the fascists from power


Fascism is being responsible to pay taxes to keep the less fortunate alive?

Fascism is forcing me to take care of families that are not my
own, whom I do not know and in most cases are undeserving,
welfare begins at home, not with government

Fascism is a country where we do not allow torture or murder as punishment for political crimes?

Fascism is claiming your hands are clean when in fact you're up
to your elbows in the blood of innocents from the very
foundation of your country

Fascism is a leadership you are either with or against.

do you support your government?

Fascism is having your phone tapped without a warrant.

like this?
or here where they admit there's an entire agency dedicated to it
or maybe this one that's dedicated to spying on canadians

Fascism is having your entire hard drive copied without a warrant.

Fascism is molesting women traveling alone, making acuasations
of crimes with no evidence, subjecting them to humiliating and
degrading treatment and violations of their person
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/message.jspa?messageID=13790457

it's just a shame that you're agents cant do the same since they
cant operate computers very well

http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2007/03/crossing-border.html

Fascism is a long history of slavery and racism.

Fascism is denying the facts
http://www.hopesite.ca/remember/history/racism_canada_1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada

Fascism is being imprisoned indefinitely without trial under the excuse of a war against no nation.

instead you turn them over to be tortured and forgotten and
ignore the facts that canada is in fact America jr.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N25278062.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/13/world/americas/13canada.html

Fascism is happily accepting the deaths of thousands of innocents as collateral when you bring your "democracy" across the world to combat "terrorism".

Didnt Mussolini 'aid' hitler just as Canada 'aids' America

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8163942 - 03/18/08 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

There is no where near as much civil unrest here, but when there has been, we have had rebellions resulting in massive political change. Go read a book without an American flag on the cover.





We vote to save the dying here. If we wanted to take every penny from the poor as you do we would. We do not choose that sort of inhumanity. No other industrialized nation does. Calling support for the dying poor fascism might help you sleep at night, but it won't make sense to anyone else in the world.





We have all had bloody histories. But who has victims being tortured out of country as we speak?

We don't.




The comment about your leadership being one that you must be "for or against" is a comment made by your genius president Mr. Bush. Intimidation for those not willing to attack "Al-Quaida related" nations like Iraq who produce vast numbers of weapons of mass destruction.







I'm sorry that two of our customs agents are corrupt individuals. PS: molestation generally constitutes at least touching a person... All border agents are charged with the task of discovering drug mules, they didn't even search her. You're talking about specific individuals, not our national policy. Petty, suited to you.





In case you are unaware it is not legal to tap a phone without a warrant in Canada... I didn't say we have absolutely no corruption, if this were an argument about corruption we would come out ahead anyway...

[Authorized days after September 11, 2001, this warrantless wiretapping program is part of a broad pattern of the executive branch using "national security" as an excuse for encroaching on the privacy and free speech rights of Americans without adequate oversight.]In the US you have no privacy.







As for the guy with the laptop, if he had declined to share, he may have been inconvenienced longer, but we would not have had the right to rape him of his privacy. As for your border guards... he would not have been so lucky as to have that right if they found issue with him.





I'm not saying Canada is 100% clean of racism. No country is. But where do you think the underground railroad WENT?






I like how at the end you just straight up admitted I was right about your government being fascist and tried to say we just wanted to be like you... lol

intellectually disabled much?

I don't support the convergence of Canadian and American culture, a great many of us don't, unfortunately the temptation of greed pulls many toward the hole of idiocy you dug for yourself so long ago.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8164034 - 03/18/08 08:48 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Haha, oh man... I went on to read more of the link you sent me about Canadian border guards being poor with computers... I read on and I find not only are people saying American guards are just as stupid, if not stupider, but they are also saying that at least Canadians are polite, Americans impose more and are bigger asses!!

You have the best retorts man.

My suggestion, don't go around doing stupid things like calling liberals fascists in the first place...


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8164217 - 03/18/08 09:25 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Looks good so far.....My only concern is that they will rule on this, only because DC is considered a federal land.....if they come up with some shit about the Constitution not applying to the States, it will make me fucking puke............



http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080318/D8VG2PR00.html


Justices Agree on Right to Own Guns




Mar 18, 4:55 PM (ET)

By MARK SHERMAN



WASHINGTON (AP) - Americans have a right to own guns, Supreme Court justices declared Tuesday in a historic and lively debate that could lead to the most significant interpretation of the Second Amendment since its ratification two centuries ago.

Governments have a right to regulate those firearms, a majority of justices seemed to agree. But there was less apparent agreement on the case they were arguing: whether Washington's ban on handguns goes too far.

The justices dug deeply into arguments on one of the Constitution's most hotly debated provisions as demonstrators shouted slogans outside. Guns are an American right, argued one side. "Guns kill," responded the other.

Inside the court, at the end of a session extended long past the normal one hour, a majority of justices appeared ready to say that Americans have a "right to keep and bear arms" that goes beyond the amendment's reference to service in a militia.




Several justices were openly skeptical that the District of Columbia's 32-year-old handgun ban, perhaps the strictest in the nation, could survive under that reading of the Constitution.

"What is reasonable about a total ban on possession?" Chief Justice John Roberts asked.

Walter Dellinger, representing the district, replied that Washington residents could own rifles and shotguns and could use them for protection at home.

"What is reasonable about a total ban on possession is that it's a ban only on the possession of one kind of weapon, of handguns, that's considered especially dangerous," Dellinger said.

Justice Stephen Breyer appeared reluctant to second-guess local officials.





Is it "unreasonable for a city with a very high crime rate ... to say no handguns here?" Breyer asked.

Alan Gura, representing a Washington resident who challenged ban, said, "It's unreasonable and it fails any standard of review."

The court has not conclusively interpreted the Second Amendment since its ratification in 1791. The amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The basic issue for the justices is whether the amendment protects an individual's right to own guns no matter what, or whether that right is somehow tied to service in a state militia.

A key justice, Anthony Kennedy, seemed to settle that question early on when he said the Second Amendment gives "a general right to bear arms." He is likely to be joined by Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas - a majority of the nine-member court.

Gun rights proponents were encouraged.

"What I heard from the court was the view that the D.C. law, which prohibits good people from having a firearm ... to defend themselves against bad people is not reasonable and unconstitutional," National Rifle Association executive vice president Wayne LaPierre said after leaving the court.

Washington Mayor Adrian Fenty said he hoped the court would leave the ban in place and not vote for a compromise that would, for example, allow handguns in homes but not in public places. "More guns anywhere in the District of Columbia is going to lead to more crime. And that is why we stand so steadfastly against any repeal of our handgun ban," the mayor said after attending the arguments.

A decision that defines the amendment's meaning would be significant by itself. But the court also has to decide whether Washington's ban can stand and how to evaluate other gun control laws.

The justices have many options, including upholding a federal appeals court ruling that struck down the ban.

Solicitor General Paul Clement, the Bush administration's top Supreme Court lawyer, supported the individual right but urged the justices not to decide the other question. Instead, Clement said the court should say that governments may impose reasonable restrictions, including federal laws that ban certain types of weapons.

Clement wants the justices to order the appeals court to re-evaluate the Washington law. He did not take a position on it.

This issue has caused division within the administration, with Vice President Dick Cheney taking a harder line than the official position at the court.

In addition to the handgun ban, Washington also has a trigger lock requirement for other guns that raised some concerns Tuesday.

"When you hear somebody crawling in your bedroom window, you can run to your gun, unlock it, load it and then fire?" Justice Antonin Scalia said.

Roberts, who has two young children, suggested at one point that trigger locks might be reasonable.

"There is always a risk that the children will get up and grab the firearm and use it for some purpose other than what the Second Amendment was designed to protect," he said.

On the other hand, he, too, wondered about the practical effect of removing a lock in an emergency. "So then you turn on the lamp, you pick up your reading glasses," Roberts said to laughter.

Dellinger said he opened the lock in three seconds, although he conceded that was in daylight.

While the arguments raged inside, dozens of protesters mingled with tourists and waved signs saying "Ban the Washington elitists, not our guns" or "The NRA helps criminals and terrorists buy guns."

Members of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence chanted "guns kill" as followers of the Second Amendment Sisters and Maryland Shall Issue.Org shouted "more guns, less crime."

The City Council that adopted the ban said it was justified because "handguns have no legitimate use in the purely urban environment of the District of Columbia."

Dick Anthony Heller, 65, an armed security guard, sued the district after it rejected his application to keep a handgun at his home for protection in the same Capitol Hill neighborhood as the court.

The last Supreme Court ruling on the topic came in 1939 in U.S. v. Miller, which involved a sawed-off shotgun. Constitutional scholars disagree over what that case means but agree it did not squarely answer the question of individual versus collective rights.

Roberts said at his confirmation hearing that the correct reading of the Second Amendment was "still very much an open issue."


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8164350 - 03/18/08 09:46 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
There is no where near as much civil unrest here




because you're fooled into believing things are dandy, you're
lied to by your media and half your population believes drugs
are legal there when things are just getting worse, it's not our
fault that canada is ignorant to what's really happening to them



Quote:

We vote to save the dying here. If we wanted to take every penny from the poor as you do we would. We do not choose that sort of inhumanity. No other industrialized nation does.




what is an industrialized nation by your definition?

explain the growing number of homeless and the lack of low
income housing while your middle class does more and more for
their selves and nothing was done for them.

explain why 50,000 of the mentally ill were kicked into the
streets with no assistance and none of their medications

explain why as canadians are getting richer the immigrants
remain poor, it couldnt be racism since that doesnt exist in
canada



Quote:

Calling support for the dying poor fascism might help you sleep at night, but it won't make sense to anyone else in the world.




helping the poor by providing them a bench and some news papers?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/06/26/shelter.html


Quote:

We have all had bloody histories. But who has victims being tortured out of country as we speak?




besides Canada? check the dates
http://www.thestar.com/article/296208

Quote:

We don't.




they say an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind,
americans know what our government is doing, whom has canada
offended to lose it's own eyes
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/950DF11B-50D5-4594-8538-F5416449A0A9.htm
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=6c9a55cf-7098-486a-a891-cb33327943f5&k=27119
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/11/14/taliban-prisoner.html
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/02/02/4809279-cp.html


Quote:

The comment about your leadership being one that you must be "for or against" is a comment made by your genius president Mr. Bush.




in the gun control debate, are you for or against, cant you stay
neutral just like your government and the troops they didnt send
to the middle east?



Quote:

I'm sorry that two of our customs agents are corrupt individuals. PS: molestation generally constitutes at least touching a person...




2 agents while several more watched

Quote:

All border agents are charged with the task of discovering drug mules, they didn't even search her. You're talking about specific individuals, not our national policy. Petty, suited to you.




are your police, border agents and military not representatives
of your government, tell us about the border agent helping to
smuggle cocaine into canada... he's representative as well


Quote:

In case you are unaware it is not legal to tap a phone without a warrant in Canada... I didn't say we have absolutely no corruption, if this were an argument about corruption we would come out ahead anyway...




well shit, at least our president put forth a law announcing his
intent instead of concealing the facts like canadians, which
would be the corrupt government the one that does and lies or
the one that makes it legal?


Quote:

As for the guy with the laptop, if he had declined to share, he may have been inconvenienced longer, but we would not have had the right to rape him of his privacy.




obviously it's not about rights since our government doesnt
actually allow them. you guys dont even have the right to free
speech since you've got a Canadian Human Rights Commission
that's violating human rights each day, holding secret meetings
and kangaroo courts
http://www.timeimmortal.net/2008/02/22/pen-canada-supports-changes-to-section-13/
http://canadianhumanrightscommission.blogspot.com/
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07071907.html






Quote:

I'm not saying Canada is 100% clean of racism.




but you said canada isnt racist, the homeless/poor statistics
show that canada doesnt give a shit about people that are not
canadian, lets call it 'nationalism'

guess what other group was nationalists




Quote:

I like how at the end you just straight up admitted I was right about your government being fascist and tried to say we just wanted to be like you... lol

intellectually disabled much?






I'd never deny Americas wrong doing, in fact if you want the
real scoop, I'll load you down, I'll tell you about the special
forces preforming drug raid in North Carolina, I'll tell you
about our government funding a revolution in Haiti just to
return and reinstall the communist government.

there's a reason I made the comparison, it's not because I
slipped it's because I'm not blindly believing my government,
I'm not accepting the pablum they wish to feed me, I am capable
of thinking for myself...


Quote:

I don't support the convergence of Canadian and American culture, a great many of us don't, unfortunately the temptation of greed pulls many toward the hole of idiocy you dug for yourself so long ago.




stop kidding yourself, 2 governments, 2 propaganda wagons, one goal

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8164377 - 03/18/08 09:49 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
My suggestion, don't go around doing stupid things





"oh, my government wouldnt do that"

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8164386 - 03/18/08 09:50 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Looks good so far.....




it looked great in the opening arguements

Quote:

Mr. Dellinger asserted that at the time the Second Amendment was drafted, “the people” and “the militia” were essentially synonymous; therefore, he said, the amendment, its two clauses properly interpreted, gave people the right to own weapons only in connection with their militia service. This assertion promptly ran into objections.

Doesn’t the argument that the people and the militia were one and the same “cut against you,” Chief Justice Roberts asked. If the militia included everyone, he continued, “doesn’t the preamble that you rely on not really restrict the right much at all?”





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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8165207 - 03/19/08 01:21 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
How can this rate be improved for the US?


 
Easy... end prohibition, fortify the border, life in prison for violent crimes, no prison for non-violent crimes.



:congrats:




wow you guys are stupid fucks. let everyone smoke pot and the world will be peacefull for all of eternity, ill believe that when Rosie O'Donnell's pussy doesn't smell like 60 day old salmon.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8165457 - 03/19/08 04:43 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

Edited by Chemy (03/19/08 04:58 AM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8165479 - 03/19/08 05:10 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Psychoslut said:
Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
How can this rate be improved for the US?


 
Easy... end prohibition, fortify the border, life in prison for violent crimes, no prison for non-violent crimes.



:congrats:




wow you guys are stupid fucks. let everyone smoke pot and the world will be peacefull for all of eternity, ill believe that when Rosie O'Donnell's pussy doesn't smell like 60 day old salmon.




:flowstone:

It doesn't matter if it would make the world a better place.

All that matters is I should have the right to do anything with my body that does not hinder anyone else's rights.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Redstorm]
    #8165513 - 03/19/08 06:00 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I'm not even sure if anyone cares, w/ as off-topic as this thread is but the Supreme Court reached a majority decision yesterday, 5-4.

The decision,which I'm too lazy to find and post, says that the right to bear arms is indeed an individual right on par w/ the freedom of speech or freedom of/from religion. The opposing view said that the right was a collective one tied to military service, and that the individual him/herself did not have an expectation of a right to bear arms.

They have not decided whether the government can do ANYTHING to limit firearms possession, but are expected to take up that next.

Clearly the right decision, in my book.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8165518 - 03/19/08 06:02 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8166100 - 03/19/08 11:01 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

It should be held to strict scrutiny,otherwise gun owners might actually end up worse. What part of shall not be infringed is so hard to understand.:banghead:

If shall not be infringed somehow means "reasonable restrictions" are ok, what will reasonable restrictions mean in 50yrs? Probably take less than that.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8166141 - 03/19/08 11:13 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

there's no such thing as reasonable restriction

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: buckwheat]
    #8166314 - 03/19/08 11:58 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

buckwheat said:
If shall not be infringed somehow means "reasonable restrictions" are ok, what will reasonable restrictions mean in 50yrs? Probably take less than that.




Of course there will be regulations and reasonable restrictions on gun ownership. Free speech is a right, yet there are clear instances in which it is regulated (copyrights, slander, etc. etc. etc.).


--------------------
:redpanda:
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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8166958 - 03/19/08 02:31 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I dont think you get it.


Our founding fathers GAVE us free speach so we COULD voice our opionon about our goverment and everything else but now if you say the wrong thing you can be arrested as a suspected terrorst.


Our rights to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Lets play a thought experiment off of penn and teller

If you gave every women in america a gun, they could choose to keep it or give it back, whatever, say only 50% choose to carry it. Becasue people are generally good more people with guns means more GOOD people with guns, and the balance swings the other way.

Who is going to rob or rape when there is a 50% chance that the women you run across has a gun?


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8166978 - 03/19/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I'm sorry, but you will never have an unimpeded right to bear any arm you want at any time at any place.

If you are not allowed to bring a gun with you on the White House tour, is that unconstitutional?

If airport security stops you from taking a bazooka on an airplane have you been unfairly treated?

Should you be able to buy a tank for personal use?

How about a howitzer?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8167154 - 03/19/08 03:10 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

punkhardcore92 said:Our founding fathers GAVE us free speach...



The founding fathers did not give us the right to free speech.  The right of free speach, or freedom of expression is inalienable.  The founding fathers only recognized it.

Quote:

punkhardcore92 said:but now if you say the wrong thing you can be arrested as a suspected terrorst.


  Id love to see a link describing that actually happening if you have it, thx  :thumbup:

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8167851 - 03/19/08 04:54 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I'm sorry, but you will never have an unimpeded right to bear any arm you want at any time at any place.

If you are not allowed to bring a gun with you on the White House tour, is that unconstitutional?

If airport security stops you from taking a bazooka on an airplane have you been unfairly treated?

Should you be able to buy a tank for personal use?

How about a howitzer?




first off, a bazooka is an shoulder-launched missile weapon. not a firearm, 2ndly a howitzer is legal to own if you have a class 3 automatic weapons permit and 3rdly, you can buy tanks, good luck feeding it with diesel and your not going to be able to find any of the munitions requiered for the cannon wich brings me to another point! you can legally own cannons!

SO what if a law abiding citizen has a howitzer and they are transporting it legally and lawfully? Why does that bother you so much? Why shouldn't the common man have acess to whatever firepower they want? Do you honestly belive that having an automatic weapon is going to make you more likely to kill? Thats a pretty horrible train of thought.
As for weapons on planes, i dont see what would be wrong with it being dissasembled and in its case, then when you get to the airport it can be checked and tagged and put in the luggage compartment. Not like they just let you sit in your seat with your 30 ot 6, so as a thought experiment if bazooka's were legal, taking it on the plane would go under the same dissasembled and tagged proceedures then whats the risk?
Should handguns be allowed on planes?? well the james bond decompression myth has been debunked so i think its safe to say yes to those people who have gotten there CCW by passing the requiered courses.

I THINK YOUR MISSING THE POINT, THAT NO MATTER HOW MANY LAWS YOU PASS REGULATING AND BANNING SHIT, IT ONLY AFFECTS THE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS, CRIMINALS WILL OBTAIN ARMS THE SAME WAY THEY DO ALOT OF THIGNS!!! They will break the law :P. Passing these regulations doesnt prevent or hinder crime, its just as easy for a badguy to get ahold of a gun after the law as it was before the law THUS only making it harder for the LAW ABIDING CITIZEN.

Bringing a gun into the whitehouse should be legal if you have a CCW and you passed the requiered courses, it never will be becasue the politicians know that they would be dead. Gun free zones are a joke, they just clear out the law abiding citizens with guns to make it an easy killing spree for the badguys.

Every mass shooting in the past 15 years have occured in gun free zones.

and as for people getting arrested as terrorists for free speech

under the sedation act of 1798 you can be arrested for speaking against your goverment

"Congress and President John Adams believed that the Sedition Act would help control pro-French troublemakers by forbidding criticism of the federal government. "Sedition" generally means the incitement of violent revolution against the government. The Sedition Act of 1798, however, went far beyond this. It required criminal penalties for persons who said or published anything "false, scandalous, or malicious" against the federal government, Congress or the president."

http://www.crf-usa.org/terror/clear_present.htm

free speech is a huge threat to our goverment
http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html


With the patriot act they can do whatever they want, if your speaking out against your goverment, they will do an investigation on you, the president has the executive power now to arrest you without any due process, trial, and hold you indefinitly.


BUt here is an interesting article about someone getting arrested for speaking out against the goverment under the patriot act.

http://www.jail4judges.org/JHS_Library/2006/JHS%202006-02-08.html




BUt yeah, our founding fathers never intended us to have standing armies, they belived standing armies were only used to spread imperialism WICH They are, in THEIR america the united states citizens defended themselves by being their own force, so in a land where a standing army doesnt exist it would seem as if the american people should have acess to army grade weapons to defend their country (once again i state because in this version of american their wouldnt be a standing army) Maybe then you'd feel diffrently about guns and who gets them. A country where only the goverment has guns seems to me like a big fuckin problem.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

Edited by punkhardcore92 (03/19/08 09:15 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: DieCommie]
    #8167980 - 03/19/08 05:16 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

punkhardcore92 said:Our founding fathers GAVE us free speach...



The founding fathers did not give us the right to free speech.  The right of free speach, or freedom of expression is inalienable.  The founding fathers only recognized it.

Quote:

punkhardcore92 said:but now if you say the wrong thing you can be arrested as a suspected terrorst.


  Id love to see a link describing that actually happening if you have it, thx  :thumbup:





So yeah once again here is that link

http://www.jail4judges.org/JHS_Library/2006/JHS%202006-02-08.html


here is another one

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2005/08/01/blogger-arrested-told-to-quit-blogging-or-go-to-prison/


Oh and how about this one!

http://www.newsnet14.com/2007/10/13/interview-with-jeff-lodor-arrested-for-being-white-and-speaking-out/


yeah THOUSANDS of americans have been arrested for speaking out against our goverment and im not talking about people out on the streets protesting blocking traffic or being busted for infractions that you CAN be arrested for..
jerk.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

Edited by punkhardcore92 (03/19/08 05:26 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8169454 - 03/19/08 09:55 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Should you be able to buy a tank for personal use?

How about a howitzer?





yes and yes, had a friend that was arrested as a felon in
possession of a firearm, the warrant read howitzer and the
location described was 'in the closet'. turns out it was a mauser

but yes, if the army has it, I should be able to buy it to make
sure my government is purchasing quality products

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8169481 - 03/19/08 09:59 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8169502 - 03/19/08 10:02 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I just think that we should have a very well armed populous not a well armed goverment, the goverment should fear its people and DAMMIT CHEMY WHY IS YOUR AVATAR COOLER THAN MINE!!! everytime you post i spend like 5 mins looking at it lol.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

Edited by punkhardcore92 (03/19/08 10:03 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8169861 - 03/19/08 11:20 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Well technically you can buy a tank.






everything is for sale, my former boss had a mobile surface to air
missle launcher and shitloads of other stuff from military
auctions, most of the shit is decommissioned like the frames on
the humvee is cut, you just have to reweld and assemble it

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8170011 - 03/19/08 11:53 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

its true! you can buy an ar-15 lower reciever for 250$ from olympic firearms then buy a decommissioned M-16 and take the parts out of that (like the 3 shot burst mechanism and the slotted saftey that works with it) to make a fully functioning m-16


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8170102 - 03/20/08 12:10 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Psychoslut said:
Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
How can this rate be improved for the US?


 
Easy... end prohibition, fortify the border, life in prison for violent crimes, no prison for non-violent crimes.



:congrats:




wow you guys are stupid fucks. let everyone smoke pot and the world will be peacefull for all of eternity, ill believe that when Rosie O'Donnell's pussy doesn't smell like 60 day old salmon.



What?
What an stupid remark.

This is the gun rights thread, but you don't have the comprehension skills to understand what the whole thread said:rolleyes:

Here let me be the translator for this guy,
Americans want (shooty shooty) or (bang bang) so bad guy no hurt mommy, daddy.

Mommy want bang bang so hamburglar no come in home and beat up mommy until mommy give purse to hamburglar.

Mommy want bang bang so monster no rape mommy.

Uhhh, now I have to explain rape, oh man.
Rape is when monster give mommy bad hug, a bad hug that hurt mommy bad, so mommy should have bang bang so that will never happen to mommy.


Done.







Do not pretend to know why I believe in the right to own a firearm. Nobody I know has ever been raped. Hell I dont even know anyone who has had there house broken into. Ive only had a reason to carry a pistol on me a handfull of times.
And yet me and my extended family own enough guns and ammunition to take over most third world countries.
Why because I can, and owning these weapons ensures me that my children will live to have the same rights as I did.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8170332 - 03/20/08 01:47 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

BRAVO! Its true, guns really arnt there to protect people from burglary and rape, its to protect our rights from the goverment taking them away, they do a great job at slowly whittling away at them.


Who's going to protect you from the goverment?

In case of the "upcomming fire" as so many southerns have termed it, id suggest hooking up with a local militia, they really arnt extremists and radicals like the media portrays them, they are more like people who REALLY understand the constitution so being as the media would rather talk about britney spears than your civil liberties, should you really trust the media as your source of news? in order to have an informed democracy we must have a non-biased nonpartisan media wich doesnt happend. CNN FOX and ABC are owned by rupert murdock, in these corporations their are things that they are told to report on and not to report on, not like a fax is sent out everyday with a list of rules, but there are generalilites like the embedded troops are not allowed to talk about.

But yeah its a good time to live in michigan, it has the largest armed forces 2nd only to the united states army, we refer to them as the michigan militia, of course one lone wolf goes out and blows up a building in oklahoma city and suddenly the michigan militia is disbanded into several divisions becasue of bad press, the press didn't mention that mcveigh was NOT a member of the milita though he did show up to a few meetings, he grew frustrated because of the ammount of talk and lack of actions. I dont think he realized the militia isnt out LOOKING for trouble, they are just willing to go on the defensive at a moments notice to protect the michigan populus from tyranny.

Its actually quite fascinating to read about, also ties into the illegal federal income tax and the massive banking conspiracy of how the federal reserve is made out of private banks who literally hijacked the american's people gold, fort knox is a slight of hand, after the 94 terrorist attack on the trade center a great mass of the gold owned by the federal reserve (made up of private banks) was moved to a new location.

YOu have the northern chapter
the southwestern chapter
and the south eastern chapter who really doesnt consist of anyone but the monroe county minuet men


But yeah


Who else is going to protect your civil liberties?


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

Edited by punkhardcore92 (03/20/08 01:49 AM)

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InvisiblePsychoslut
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8170353 - 03/20/08 02:10 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

You are pretty cool.

9/11 was pretty bad. I cant imagine the horror that would happen if red blooded Americans got pissed off enough to do that kind of shit themselves.


--------------------



[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Psychoslut]
    #8171696 - 03/20/08 12:21 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Yo, punkhardcore. I've been interested in the MI militia for a long tme. I am very keen on the need for citizens to have weapons. It isn't about fighting criminals, it's about the right to revolution and how we should keep that rght sitting very close to us. At least in the closet.

I see both sides of the argument, but as of late realized that I want to have some guns to protect my rights from the government if need be. As I grow older and more things change, I think that need is steadily approaching.

Please hook up some info on the Michgan Militia, I've had trouble finding good stuff.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: dill705]
    #8172053 - 03/20/08 02:06 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Basicly the websites are un-maintained, but i do belive they are getting ready for a spring skirmish and some things like that soon.


but yeah their page is obviously this (i doubt it will be of much help as im sure you've already looked over it). I've emailed a few people from their page and rarely get any replies, with times like these they are very warey about what they say to who they say it too, they do not want to seem like they are going on ANY SORT of offensive, their purpose is SOLEY to defend.

http://www.michiganmilitia.com


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8172148 - 03/20/08 02:28 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

I understand the intention of the militia. I'm a pacifist myself. But I do believe in defence of our rights, and without the public having guns, there's no true way to protect our rights. They just keep eroding away...

However, I'll have to try to contact some of these people somehow. I hope I can get a response.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8172883 - 03/20/08 05:59 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:48 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8172952 - 03/20/08 06:17 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Who knows, it would be wrong to assume everyone associated with the milita has the same political views or any views of the sort for that matter.

you should see if you can find we the people radio actually here
http://www.wethepeopleradionetwork.com/


pretty interesting stuff, alot of the stuff on that webpage is crap, but some of it is interesting at least for thought.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

Edited by punkhardcore92 (03/20/08 06:17 PM)

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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8173371 - 03/20/08 07:48 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:49 PM)

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8173376 - 03/20/08 07:50 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

What about to protect us from our own country?


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: dill705]
    #8173412 - 03/20/08 07:58 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:49 PM)

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Offlinepunkhardcore92
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: dill705]
    #8173424 - 03/20/08 08:02 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Belive me, loose change is the worst movie ever with holes all through it

i do not belive in 9/11 as a conspiracy anymore than that they LET it happend, not that they did it, the CIA knew what was happending and they even gave bush a write up on the events the day before that bush never read...

so what happends? builds the department of homeland defense

im sorry that DOHD doesnt do anything more but be a huge expensive beurocracy when in the end if some jerk at the top doesnt read the document that could have prevented everything waht good is a 12billion dollar agency going to do?


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Offlinepunkhardcore92
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8173426 - 03/20/08 08:04 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

how would they dare post anyhting about the bush regime? you can be arrested for speaking against your goverment and them being a militia they would be immediately labled as a terrorist threat.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

Edited by punkhardcore92 (03/20/08 08:04 PM)

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8173509 - 03/20/08 08:28 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:50 PM)

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Offlinepunkhardcore92
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8173555 - 03/20/08 08:37 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

the worst part about it is i cant really say if the guy who runs the website is a well regarded member or not but being as the website is the only thing we have to base any view we have on the militia i am sorry to say i will have to agree with you on them sounding super parinoid, but parinoid or not they do serve a purpose.


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: punkhardcore92]
    #8173714 - 03/20/08 09:18 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Dearborn is a city in Mi, just in case Entheopeace didn't know.

They have, I believe, the highest percentage of arab/muslim residents in the country. I would expect the militia to be a little more paranoid there.

No excuse for being, what sounds to me, slightly bigotted. But I agree that they are probably smart enough to know that the fed would shut them down so fast.

I've heard of the militia since I was a kid, but I've never tried looking them up outside of school, where their website was apparently blocked.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: dill705]
    #8173837 - 03/20/08 09:59 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 03:50 PM)

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8173937 - 03/20/08 10:18 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Oh I undertstand. I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything, and I'm the farthest person from a racial profiler.

I didn't know that Ford had a hail Hitler newspaper. That's fucked.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: dill705]
    #8173962 - 03/20/08 10:26 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8174215 - 03/20/08 11:11 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

I used to stick up for Ford automobiles, now I feel like I supported the holocaust.

Fucking Nazi loving, Jew hating bastards


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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OfflineChemy
Jesus is Lord

Registered: 10/05/07
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Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! *DELETED* [Re: dill705]
    #8174286 - 03/20/08 11:26 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedill705
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Registered: 12/10/07
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: Chemy]
    #8174325 - 03/20/08 11:33 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

o0o no, I'm just playin' man. It's hard to get my sense of humor over the internet sometimes.

I always assumed Ford was a righteous man, but I guess in MI schools, it's kinda like the Columbus Day stuff.

You know, how he was a hero and found our great country. But really he raped, stole, murdered and who knows what else.

Ford is the same here.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepunkhardcore92
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 494
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: dill705]
    #8174375 - 03/20/08 11:42 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

I live in a town with a structure that henry ford built, and it has a display of him and it talks about how he would come to peoples homes for dinner to see if their family was up to par if they wernt the people woudl get fired. Crazyness. But yeah


--------------------
Guns, the only thing more dangerous is not having them.

Support the 2nd amendment or give up all your civil liberties.

Everything said by me is fiction.

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Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
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Re: Guns Rights for the Individual, Gets Day in Supreme Court...!!! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8175321 - 03/21/08 10:10 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

buckwheat said:
If shall not be infringed somehow means "reasonable restrictions" are ok, what will reasonable restrictions mean in 50yrs? Probably take less than that.




Of course there will be regulations and reasonable restrictions on gun ownership. Free speech is a right, yet there are clear instances in which it is regulated (copyrights, slander, etc. etc. etc.).




Last time i checked the 1st does not say,"shall not be infringed". Tangible objects are a little more sensitive to legislation.

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