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OfflineDerk
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Our multi-dimesional selves
    #8147411 - 03/14/08 08:28 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

So I just watched the documentary "What the @$* do we know?" (which everyone SHOULD see and it's on youtube so go for it) and it got me to thinking about the different situations in reality and the outcomes they have, yet we only can, or seem, to experience one of these outcomes.

Now it is said and believed by great philosophers from such groups as the Golden Dawn and other orders that above this dense plane we exist in all planes and time at once. However, our brain cannot comprehend this and most people do not even contain the awareness to be able to fully and precisely visualize a complex pattern or painting, so how can we expect to be able to realize this? Quantum mechanics says that there are several outcomes for a certain event. Just like how an electron can be in two places of existence at once. But only one can be realized and manifested into the physical world of existence. Most people believe that they do not have any control over this, and that the things around them happen without their consent, therefore leaving them powerless. What if though, we DO have the power to create and choose what happens in our lives?

I'll give a down to Earth example for you to understand. Today I was suppose to have a test in my Government class. It wasn't DEFINATE though (you'll see why this matters in a second). My teacher told me it would be either today, or in 2 weeks. So see here, this created the potential for 2 separate outcomes. I did not want to have the test this week, because I have another test to study for this Friday. So I thought since there are 2 possible outcomes and nothing is definate, I choose to have the test in 2 weeks. I focused all my consciousness in living in the reality where the test will not be for 2 weeks. No other reality existed in my mind. And what happened when I got to class? The teacher announced the test would be in 2 weeks.

I cannot say for certain that this theory is genuinely correct. But this event just makes me more curious about the subject. If an electron has the power to go in and out of existence and into a different dimension, what is saying we don't? After all, everything is made up of electrons. What is to say that you cannot phase out of a current reality to be fully conscious in a different one? Parallel universes are practically the same anyway.

What I also began to think about is the ability to time travel. The brain cannot determine the difference between a memory of something and actually experiencing that something (i.e. a real object to visualiztion). So that must be the same with experiences too right? I mean, when we think of an embarrassing experience we have had, we feel that emotion of embarrassment. So is this in fact time travel since we are conciously living and experiencing the enviroment and feelings? If our mind cannot distinguish the difference between the two, of an imagined experience to a more "real" one, what's to say that this world is not also mallable to our thoughts and can be twisted to our will just like our minds can be?

I can also build off this and say that it may be quite possible to change certain parts or experiences in which you had the possibility for several outcomes and by re-experiencing that outcome through visualization and imagination, and imagining a different outcome occurring you might be able to shift over into that reality. And who would ever know the difference? The act may give you amnesia of some sort, because your being in a different reality won't have experienced what you had in the other reality before deciding to take another outcome into manifestation. This does seem sort of Butterfly Effect like (lol I just realized this, damn I was hoping to be original) but it's very interesting and something that should be researched into IMO.

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Invisiblemuistrue
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8147472 - 03/14/08 08:46 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)



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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: muistrue]
    #8147847 - 03/14/08 10:51 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I think that the very particles that are used to make up my thoughts, are used to make up yours, and everything else that exists. Quantum entanglement?

You cannot create or destroy energy right?

Let's say a scientist from dimension apart from this universe looked down at our universe like a cell. Because this scientist is so big and has an infinite amount of energy compared to what we can measure, he could easily attempt to "extract", lets say, a single electron from our universe. This would mean that to remove this electron from our universe would be kind of like destroying it. What would happen? Our entire universe would collapse and POOF! sieze to exist. Everything that exist in our universe is interdependent of itself. Why? Because it is still a singularity. You cannot remove anything from this universe. Without it, our universe, the singularity, would be no more. To remove this one electron, is to remove the entire universe.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

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OfflineDerk
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Ginseng1]
    #8148358 - 03/15/08 02:26 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

atoms steal each others' electrons all the time and they don't cease to exist.

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8148815 - 03/15/08 09:34 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

i dunno how to say it but these people did lol


Healing
It is held that the cause of sickness is soul theft, in which someone (perhaps an enemy shaman or a spirit) has stolen the soul of the sick person. The person remains alive because people have multiple souls, so stealing the appropriate soul causes illness or a moribund state rather than immediate death. It takes a shaman to retrieve the stolen soul.[51] According to another variant among Ammassalik Eskimos in East Greenland, the joints of the body have their own small souls, the loss of which causes pain


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"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8149141 - 03/15/08 11:47 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Derk said:
atoms steal each others' electrons all the time and they don't cease to exist.




Right. You have further proved my point. What I'm talking about is the universe as the singularity, not an atom as the singularity because it is not. It is part of it. Everything that exists in the universe is part of the singularity and is interdependent of itself. If an atom sleals anothers electron, the unvierse remains. No energy was created or destroyed. As in nothing can enter or escape it. Only transfered.

And besides, there are no atoms with no electrons.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (03/15/08 11:54 AM)

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Ginseng1]
    #8149175 - 03/15/08 11:59 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

while massivly on amanita unknown to my roommate who i lived with for a year and never let him know i used substances infact joked about how dumb pot heads are and stuff. well i purposed a theory that we are all made of atoms and what not and cause of this we too form the type of bonds elements do and we are living expersions of the elements that be and since every person has a specific composure and eating food is the only thing that changes it we change or composure but at some level no amount of food can change some blocks. well from there i say people form relationships for the same reason their compostions detremine that. he was like whole shit man thats amazing how did you think that up and i kinda was like hmm cause i did, tho really while in that trip when ever i would talk to anyone i would feel the electons and i was spinning it kinda sucked alot i took way to much. i felt all those energies and it was really rough specially in a haunted college.

any who all Atoms dont steal electrons. theres differnt types of bonding only in bonds which it was stolen cause attraction are they like that other bonds are formed from mutal attraction and share electrons.

you see Amanita is greater then psilocybes for the very reason that of what i learned, which i learned alot for VT like the gyms and amanita have. but they also learned from japan and all over the world, tho i think the amanita learned something purer something about communal love where gyms just ate death and decay and sometimes the living. one being heterotroph and the other symbiotic do you see the symbolism in it all, thats why i use amanita and say each to their own but amanita cant be touched unless your pruer as where gyms are differnt and theres also similar drugs to it. and cubes well almost anyone can grow cubes or pick em from horse shit. gyms you gota know the woods and amanita too or atleast where they like to hang out. They love those places so much they manifested in those forms using the powers of the elements and elctrons and atoms to bond.

http://www.answers.com/topic/heterotroph?cat=technology


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"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: thedudenj]
    #8150723 - 03/15/08 06:46 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

If an electron has the power to go in and out of existence and into a different dimension, what is saying we don't?




how do you know an electron can move into a different dimension? I don't get it... Or are you just saying that if you imagine that an electron can, then....?\

Quote:

What is to say that you cannot phase out of a current reality to be fully conscious in a different one? Parallel universes are practically the same anyway.




Well in a parelel universe model you don't phase out of any universe. You are always in the same universe...

Quote:

Without it, our universe, the singularity, would be no more. To remove this one electron, is to remove the entire universe.




Why do you believe this? If you accept that energy cannot be destroyed, then you cannot do what you said. If you accept that energy can be destroyed, then you can do what you said. Either way, I don't see how you justify the conclusion that the universe is destroyed due to the removal of the electron.

That seems to me like establishing that "people can't walk through walls" and then "when a person walks through a wall the universe is destroyed". How do you deduce this? It doesn't happen by definition, so how can their be a consequence?

Quote:


any who all Atoms dont steal electrons. theres differnt types of bonding only in bonds which it was stolen cause attraction are they like that other bonds are formed from mutal attraction and share electrons.





I don't know what you're trying to say, but I suspect its wrong if you mean one atom doesn't take an electron from another atom or molecule

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: johnm214]
    #8150939 - 03/15/08 07:39 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

I guess your not too familiar with this forum. You are not allowed to call out people and challenge their 'beliefs'. Also, definitions of words (like atom and singularity) are different in here then they are out in the general population. The definition of singularity as a point of infinite density doesn't apply here. Also, atoms cannot be highly ionized and lose all of their electrons here. And any conclusion can be reached by an premise as long as someone feels its true.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: DieCommie]
    #8151222 - 03/15/08 08:50 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

yeah, I haven't really posted here much, but I looked at the rules right now and all it says is to be respectful, and don't mock people's beliefs, which I don't think I've done. The rules don't seem to say you cannot challenge anyone's belief system, but rather you cannot disrespect others.


I wasn't sure about why some the original poster believed certain things and asked for clarification.  Additionally, saying that atoms can oxidize really doesn't seem to be disrespectful.

And about the "univers explodes if you remove an electron, which you can't do" comment, I don't think it was disrespectful the way I asked why they believe that... since by definition it seems moot.


If the poster's not interested in responding, that's fine, but I guess I"m not sure where I've broken any rules.  Feel free to point it out to me if you like.  Thanks :thumbup:


Quote:


Rules:
1) No Flaming. No Trolling. Flaming or spiritual bashing is not tolerated in this section.
Do not provoke others with incendiary or condescending remarks.
2) Be respectful. Please always respect the beliefs and thread guidelines of other members.
3) Mocking others beliefs is not allowed. Making posts or threads that mock in a ridiculing manner will not be tolerated. For skeptic vs believer style debates on spiritual issues, visit the Philosophy and Spirituality board.
4) Be aware of, and use, the ?Report Post? icon (located on the bottom of every post) if you notice a rule being broken. This will notify the moderators of that particular post, please provide a reason for notification.





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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: johnm214]
    #8151345 - 03/15/08 09:17 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Sorry, guess I was wrong. I was under the impression I couldn't dispute anything said in this forum.

Well then I respectfully say, to the OP, 'What the Bleep do we Know' is a big heap of crap. Do believe that the narrator of the film is the channeled spirit of a 30,000 year old warrior from Atlantis? (channeled through JZ Knight, as she is called in the film). Also the scientists quoted on that show were taken out of context and resent the way they were portrayed.
For example, Physicist David Albert said:
Quote:

I was edited in such a way as to completely suppress my actual views about the matters the movie discusses. I am, indeed, profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness. Moreover, I explained all that, at great length, on camera, to the producers of the film ... Had I known that I would have been so radically misrepresented in the movie, I would certainly not have agreed to be filmed.




The theory of quantum physics has nothing to do with consciousness, nothing to do with mysticism, nothing to do with spirituality. Exploring those ideas is great, but quantum theory is not the way to do it.

Bottom line- The film uses scientific words to brow beat a population that doesnt know a bra from a ket into thinking that quantum physics has meaning that it doesnt. In the process Ramtha cultists and film makers make alot of cash.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: DieCommie]
    #8151514 - 03/15/08 09:43 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

lol

yeah, I think psychology is a better way to evaluate what happened here... the prof probably decided that he wished to encourage studying

But if your saying that you feel you somehow willed him to have the test later... no one can say you didn't.  Perhaps you should come to my classes :thumbup:

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OfflineDerk
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: johnm214]
    #8151853 - 03/15/08 11:13 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

how do you know an electron can move into a different dimension? I don't get it... Or are you just saying that if you imagine that an electron can, then....?\




I'm guessing you have not made it to freshman chemistry or physics at a university. So you wouldn't know about the Bohr model or anything like that. If you don't believe that they can't shift in and out, then consider that particles can exist as a piece of matter and wave at the same time. Therefore there must be two planes intersecting here.

Quote:


Well in a parrelel universe model you don't phase out of any universe. You are always in the same universe...




when I say universe, I mean dimension. It's like opening a door to a new reality. The universe in what you specify is correlating to the image of the whole and is not what I am talking about.

Quote:

Without it, our universe, the singularity, would be no more. To remove this one electron, is to remove the entire universe.

Why do you believe this? If you accept that energy cannot be destroyed, then you cannot do what you said. If you accept that energy can be destroyed, then you can do what you said. Either way, I don't see how you justify the conclusion that the universe is destroyed due to the removal of the electron.

That seems to me like establishing that "people can't walk through walls" and then "when a person walks through a wall the universe is destroyed". How do you deduce this? It doesn't happen by definition, so how can their be a consequence?




We see this is true because you really can't destroy something. You can just convert or transmute it. No, saying it is the same thing as thinking you can walk through and wall and then someone walks through it is incorrect because you cannot compare something that is true and proven to something you made up. That's like saying the ground is made of marshmellow and believing this. You can change the word marshmellow to match the idea of the ground, but it will never correlate to the actuallity of what we know as a marshmellow.

I'd also like to add that this model he has suggested for singularity is a fine example of duality. The universe is everything and everything is the universe. Without the other, there is no equilibrium and neither can exist. If compared to anything, think of a covalent compound.

Quote:


any who all Atoms dont steal electrons. theres differnt types of bonding only in bonds which it was stolen cause attraction are they like that other bonds are formed from mutal attraction and share electrons.





Atoms steal each others electrons all the time. Just because they lose one doesn't mean they are destroyed and I never suggested that.



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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8151877 - 03/15/08 11:24 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

yeah I get what you're saying w/ the electron thing in the last quote, that was from dudenj.. probably should have mentioned that, so I wasn't trying to pick a bone w/ you

but as for the electron and dimensions, yeah I've had freshman physics and chemistry, I just don't get what you're saying, sure they can move in different dimensions, I though you were speaking re: a different universe when you said a different dimension, but now it seems like you just meant it can physically move?  I guess I don't get your point, but that doesn't really matter :smile:


The other quote about "the universe is destroyed" was from ginsing.
  I still don't get how he's saying that an electron plucked from the universe destroys the universe...


thanks for the responses

So I guess you feel that you may have influenced the outcome of the test date decision of your prof cuz you concentrated on it?  Is this kinda like prayer without a deity?

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OfflineDerk
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: DieCommie]
    #8151892 - 03/15/08 11:28 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:


Well then I respectfully say, to the OP, 'What the Bleep do we Know' is a big heap of crap. Do believe that the narrator of the film is the channeled spirit of a 30,000 year old warrior from Atlantis? (channeled through JZ Knight, as she is called in the film). Also the scientists quoted on that show were taken out of context and resent the way they were portrayed.





This disappoints me that you make such an ignorant statement. Just because I watched it doesn't mean I believe all of it. That's like thinking cats can talk because you saw it in a movie. I meant that the movie sparked a thought that grew into an interest and then into an idea. You don't have to believe everything you read or are told. This would just be foolish. You have to learn to look at things from all perspectives to truly understand. I guess I'll have to dumb down my sentences next time so you can understand.

Quote:

The theory of quantum physics has nothing to do with consciousness, nothing to do with mysticism, nothing to do with spirituality. Exploring those ideas is great, but quantum theory is not the way to do it.

Bottom line- The film uses scientific words to brow beat a population that doesnt know a bra from a ket into thinking that quantum physics has meaning that it doesnt. In the process Ramtha cultists and film makers make alot of cash.




This is just as much, if not more ignorant. I don't like to put people down, but that is the explanation for your lack of understanding. The movie is not some kind of bible, (even in which is that not taken literally) it is made to spread ideas and spark a chain of interests to further look upon this subject because they even state they don't fully understand it. They want you to be able to watch their movie with skeptism, questioning their theories and findings, yet not being a hard headed fool and instantly ignore it and label it wrong. Everything around you has to do with spirituality. You can deem me wrong as much as you want, but in the end you are hurting yourself as you refuse to let yourself make the connections to enable you to better understanding.

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8151915 - 03/15/08 11:34 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

I dont deem you wrong, I deem "What the bleep do we know" wrong.  That movie has spread alot of disinformation.

anyway... I dont understand how you use particle wave duality to justify electrons moving in and out of other dimensions.  That must be your interpretation...( or maybe what the bleep do we know's interpretation) because I have never read or heard of that before.

To me that logic doesn't follow at all.  :ohwell:

EDIT - haha, i beat you john.

Edited by Qubit (03/15/08 11:35 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8151918 - 03/15/08 11:35 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

You seem a little defensive. Diecommie didn't seem like he was saying you were wrong, or that your ideas were wrong, he was just saying his opinions on the movie, and it seems like you even agree with him that some of the points weren't too well supported- or at least you say you hold out that possibility.


peace and love my brotha


edit: nevermind you beat me to it



diecommie, you mentioned singularity and its different uses in this forum's realm of conversation


Do you know how this happened? Why do people use that term differently in this forum, or when talking about mysticism, than physicists do?

And for anyone, what does singularity mean in the context used in this forum? I don't really get it.... is it just the standard dictionary definition? Something singular?

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OfflineDerk
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: johnm214]
    #8151947 - 03/15/08 11:44 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
but as for the electron and dimensions, yeah I've had freshman physics and chemistry, I just don't get what you're saying, sure they can move in different dimensions, I though you were speaking re: a different universe when you said a different dimension, but now it seems like you just meant it can physically move?  I guess I don't get your point, but that doesn't really matter :smile:




The basis of the universe is energy. It permeates everything because everything is the result from this formless thing. People call this vast ocean of energy God or Divinity because it is everything at its purest form. You cannot remove this energy from the universe, therefore it cannot be destroyed. Therefore what whats his face said is incorrect and a bad metaphor.

Let me try to explain this to you in an easier means. A brick in a house can exist as several things at once; a bunch of atoms, a block of cinder, or the house itself. However you choose which one it is existing as you observe it. This is what I mean about an electron existing in two places at once.

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: johnm214]
    #8151969 - 03/15/08 11:51 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

lol, that was a flip comment I was making. Admittedly I am cynical about the discussions that go on here and dont partake often because of that. One of the reason I am cynical about discussion on here is often words are used with definitions that seem to exist only in this forum.

The mathematician definition of singularity is a point that is undefined (ie like the function 1/x has a singularity at 0, it is 1/0). This happens in physics when density of matter in space approaches infinity (like 1/0, happens in black holes), so a singularity is a point of infinite density. I think that Ginseng used the term to suggest that our universe is the singularity in some black hole ( im guessing, correct me if im wrong Ginseng). Thats what lead to my sarcastic comment, that they dont use the standard definintion here, because obviously the universe is not infinitely dense.

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OfflineDerk
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8152008 - 03/16/08 12:01 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Ah my brain is racked after intensely re-thinking this. I know there is a flaw in my theory I just can't fit the piece. Like you said, that idea came from what the bleep about electrons coming in and out of existence. I don't know if they meant it changes into a wave and then back, or if it is existing as the same in a alternate reality.

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8152252 - 03/16/08 01:51 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

The universe.

The universe is made up of formless energy. To think otherwise is naive. Anything can be as long as it is perceived and perception is only a result of consciousness.

Any level that we can perceive it is not anything apart from this universe, only a different level of it.

A curled up dimension in our universe, is not seperate from it. All dimensions exist within this universe. Our ability to think in terms of the future or past is still existant within our universe. Any other dimensions that we have the ability to transcend must exist within our universe. My metaphor for the giant scientist was to equate something seperate from this universe compared to where the human beings stands. As in not part of our universe or any dimensions within it. Ofcourse, there is no proof that any such thing exists, but that is what the imagination is for to understand the principle that energy cannot be created or destroyed. There is no edge to the universe and we cannot escape it or introduce energy that doesn't already exist.

So, if energy cannot be created or destroyed, and quantum entanglement is a phenomena too abstract for our current understanding, this leads me to believe that the delicate structure of our universe is interdependent of all the energy that creates it. If you take even the most infintisimal partical in this universe and actually remove it from this singularity that is the universe (perhaps it is a black hole) then it's entire structure would seize to exist. It would no longer be a singularity. Perhaps it would explode into another universe minus whatever particle was extracted and would cool into a universe with less energy. Who knows?

If the singularity that existed before the big bang has expanded to the approx. 15 billion light years across.. what would make you believe for even one second that there is any more or less energy from before the big bang till now.

Nothing exists beyond what already does exist and whatever differences there may be are a result of different patterns of the formless substance, not more or less of it.

I hope somebody understands what I'm trying to say here. Energy cannot be created or destroyed because our current understanding and capabilities of our universe limit us from doing anything remotely close to "destroying" or "creating" energy. What would happen if we could?


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8152258 - 03/16/08 01:53 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Derk said:
Ah my brain is racked after intensely re-thinking this. I know there is a flaw in my theory I just can't fit the piece. Like you said, that idea came from what the bleep about electrons coming in and out of existence. I don't know if they meant it changes into a wave and then back, or if it is existing as the same in a alternate reality.




Electrons don't come in and out of existance. They just appear in completely different places.


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Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Ginseng1]
    #8152295 - 03/16/08 02:10 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/09/16 05:03 PM)

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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Our multi-dimesional selves [Re: Derk]
    #8153820 - 03/16/08 03:34 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

i still say that traveling to another universe is still just meeting someone that is ego centric and you give into their reality and become part of it this is inter universal travel and is totally far our and sometimes the only way to enter some universe is to explore the multipule dimensions of the self and in turn they might too so that your realitys and universes may merge


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

Edited by thedudenj (03/19/08 01:45 PM)

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