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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 104
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down?
#8130730 - 03/11/08 06:51 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I made 2 pint jars with 2.5% turbinado sugar (just a tad heavier than the 5g per 240mL recommended) and distilled water solution, and they were showing myc in 12 hours and grew quite rapidly for 2 days, like to where I could see new growth every 9 hours. Now they have slowed down to where I'm questioning if they are even growing anymore. They've been at 74-78F.
When left unagitated for about 40 minutes, they form a puffy glob of myc (with remnants of spore clumps still visible through it) at the bottom. One is maybe half the size of a golf ball and one a third the size of a golf ball. They break up to lots of fluffy frayed pieces when I put em on the magnetic stirrer, but I havn't been seeing much benefit of actual growth. I'm certain there's no contamination, as there's nothing in the jars but fluffy white myc and the leftover spore clumps.
From what I've read, spores germinating can take several days, and is the more time consuming process, but once that happens, things should take off pretty quick. Isn't what I'm seeing here pretty counter-intuitive? The solution is now almost 100% colorless (as opposed to the tinge of yellow that turbinado sugar gives)... have they just run low on nutrients? Should I do an LC-2-LC inoculation with a stronger sugar solution, or do you guys think there is some other less obvious problem?
cheers -Jon
ps: I can post photos of them a bit later today if someone would like to take an actual look, but my camera doesn't give very good results when taking pics of things that distort light and all like jars of liquid do.
Edited by jonogt (03/11/08 07:38 AM)
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smokedout420
The EnlightenedOne



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 484
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8130998 - 03/11/08 09:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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im gonna be working on doing a diy stirrer. i have a buddy that swears on em. he said that he leaves his on 24/6 that given 1 day a rest and it takes him 7 to 10 days to have a full jar of myc. then he puts into frig to stop growth til needed, but the trick he claim to help is stir, stir, stir. keep the myc moving at least once a day for 15 min afterwards. if someone else has other thoughts about this im sure u'll cime in.
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grod31
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: smokedout420]
#8131012 - 03/11/08 09:12 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
They were showing myc in 12 hours
are you talking about LC to LC because there is no way you got spores to germinate in 12 hours
Quote:
'm certain there's no contamination, as there's nothing in the jars but fluffy white myc and the leftover spore clumps.
I have had some beautifull lookin lc's that turned out to be contaminated, you never know untill you inoculate.
Edited by grod31 (03/11/08 09:21 AM)
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smokedout420
The EnlightenedOne



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 484
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: grod31]
#8131062 - 03/11/08 09:30 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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ya its always good to to make up a brf paste. pc it then knock up with the lc solution give 3 to 5 days and it should tell you if you have a contam. its better then finding out the hard way and finding out through 15 jars.
how to make brf paste
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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: smokedout420]
#8131378 - 03/11/08 11:20 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I PC'd em for 40 minutes and I feel like I was pretty darn careful with sterility when I inoculated em. All the stuff in the photos grew off of the spore clumps (the dark specks in the pics). Yes I went from spores... it may have been more like 15 hours, but I was seeing fluffy white linking spore clumps together when under magnification. Do certain contams look like myc? How does the appearance change in a brf paste as opposed to LC if they look the same?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Jonogt/p1010001.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Jonogt/p1010004-1.jpg
opinions on the photos? Do those look right or no?
If I don't have contams (i'm gona try the brf paste to see), would lack of nutrients be a reason that it stopped growing? Wouldn't contams even continue to grow if there was sufficient nutrient in solution? I guess that's what I'm getting at, is that growth has just stopped all together.
Edited by jonogt (03/11/08 11:52 AM)
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smokedout420
The EnlightenedOne



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 484
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8131729 - 03/11/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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i only pc for 25 min so i dont carmelize. thoughs look ok to me but i would still test em b4 you know up a lot of jars i know you just want to get to work on the grow and get all the mushies as you can. trust me i do too, but on the other hand of things why not take that extra step to make sure ur not wasting lbs of sub. just cause ur wanting to get on to the next step. you cant really say if its bad or not until you test is.
here is something tahoe has wrote up check it out http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7956300#7956300
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dill705
Amazed



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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: smokedout420]
#8131767 - 03/11/08 12:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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How long has growth stopped?
Those jars look good, and there's just no way they used up all the nutes with that much mycelium, assuming you prepared the solution right.
Also, where did you get your spores from? They may have been contaminated before you got them.
Did you flame sterilze the needle before inoc?
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: dill705]
#8132008 - 03/11/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'm setting up the brf paste right now to test em.
i don't want to say growth has stopped, but it's been pretty much negligable level for 36-48 hours. I innoced them on friday afternoon, and they were doing great until probably sunday morning. I just set the one that's less developed on the magnetic stirrer and noticed a fair amount of myc clinging to the teflon stir bar. Wouldn't this indicate that atleast some kinda growth is happening?
I got the spores from ralphster. flame sterilized the needle very well, and then cooled it in a rubbing alcy swab before injecting.
The better jar (the one in the pics) has defined black specks in the white whisps which I'm almost sure are the leftover spores. but the lagging jar has more vague dark areas in the whisps. I can't tell if these are just dense pieces of myc with the leftover spore clumps, or contams. Would contaminants colonize the free areas of the solution instead of right on the competing mycellium? Or would they start by piggybacking on it?
I'm going to do the test jar on the one I posted the pic of. If it comes back clean, what else might be causing the stunted growth? I admit that they do experience some temperature fluctuation (74-78 with occasional 71-80), but the same fluctuations were present when they were doing well. Anything with that?
Again, how do I know the results of my BRF test jar if my contams possibly look the same as mycellium?
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dill705
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8132048 - 03/11/08 02:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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No temp seems fine.
My LC's won't grow past a point either, but I don't have a stirrer, so I thought maybe that was why.
But my LC is certainly colonizing my grains well.
Hope your little contam experiment comes out clean.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: dill705]
#8132370 - 03/11/08 03:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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how will i know if it's clean? are contams guarenteed to look different enough? I'm making it in a babyfood jar w/a polyfil filter and silicone injection port.
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grod31
Stranger



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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8132552 - 03/11/08 04:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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You can have perfect looking lc's and they can still harvest contaminations.it would much better to use two silicone injection ports the lc dosnt need any gas exchange and you can turn them upside down.And i still don't believe that it germinated in 15 hours.
-------------------- Back the tape up. I need it again!
Let it roll! Just as high as the
fucker can go! And when it comes
to that fantastic note where the
rabbit bites its own head off, I
want you to THROW THAT FUCKING
RADIO INTO THE TUB WITH ME!
Not me. It would blast you through
the wall stone dead in ten
seconds and they'd make me explain
VVVVV Free Myco Thread
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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
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Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: grod31]
#8132762 - 03/11/08 04:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I honestly don't know what to say as to the validity of 15 hr germination. i know I saw white stuff between spore clumps. Maybe I was dellusional. All I care about right now is that the test jar goes well and my LC is able to be used.
once again, if an LC looks to be clean myc, what will allow me to distinguish contams (if there are any) in the test jar? Does pure white in BRF paste indicate a clean culture?
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grod31
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8133009 - 03/11/08 05:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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No. it dosnt, the only way to test it is to try and fruit it. make a pf cake or something you should know in 3 days or with your shit mayabe in 3 hours.
i have read that spores can germinate on agar in 12 hours if they are from a fresh mushroom. i guess 15 hour lc germination could be possible?
-------------------- Back the tape up. I need it again!
Let it roll! Just as high as the
fucker can go! And when it comes
to that fantastic note where the
rabbit bites its own head off, I
want you to THROW THAT FUCKING
RADIO INTO THE TUB WITH ME!
Not me. It would blast you through
the wall stone dead in ten
seconds and they'd make me explain
VVVVV Free Myco Thread
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smokedout420
The EnlightenedOne



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 484
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8133030 - 03/11/08 06:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes for me it does. it has been working out great for me. everytime i make a lc i test with the brf paste. plus when i havent used the lc for a while i test it. the only thing i have ended up with was wet spot or cob web. and that was one time on the same cake.
Quote:
jonogt said: I honestly don't know what to say as to the validity of 15 hr germination. i know I saw white stuff between spore clumps. Maybe I was dellusional. All I care about right now is that the test jar goes well and my LC is able to be used.
once again, if an LC looks to be clean myc, what will allow me to distinguish contams (if there are any) in the test jar? Does pure white in BRF paste indicate a clean culture?
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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 104
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: smokedout420]
#8133227 - 03/11/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not trying to make some claim about the awesomeness of my mycology. I wish I could. I was just putting my suprise at the slowing of growth in context by how well they were doing before. (if you were speaking in sarcasm grod31)
I'll watch the little jar and see what happens.
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dill705
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8133756 - 03/11/08 08:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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The jars will probably grow white mold and then after a few days change color. It's hard to tell mycelium from contams if you've never seen healthy mycelium before, so look for the color change.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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smokedout420
The EnlightenedOne



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 484
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: dill705]
#8135838 - 03/12/08 07:59 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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1st time i heard this.
Quote:
grod31 said: lc dosnt need any gas exchange and you can turn them upside down..
so i guess gas exchange is a debate. if you want faster growth. you need it, but you don't have to have it. LC & gas exchange
gas exchange in LC?
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shroober
Myco Junkie


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 879
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: smokedout420]
#8135849 - 03/12/08 08:05 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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One of the problems with LC as we all know is the difficulty in detecting contams. I would not suggest inoculating LC directly with spores. It is much safer to transfer healthy mycelium from grain, or myc water, or agar, or cloned fruits to ensure you are getting a contam free LC.
Also, I firmly believe LC DOES need gas exchange in order to colonize within a reasonable time frame.
Edited by shroober (03/12/08 08:06 AM)
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jeetered
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: shroober]
#8135919 - 03/12/08 08:44 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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generally happens when solutions nutes are used up...
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JSshroom
dont be paranoid, just aware


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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8136030 - 03/12/08 09:35 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes they will look different. cobweb, the green and all the other fun colors will come out on a substrate
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shroober
Myco Junkie


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 879
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: JSshroom]
#8136155 - 03/12/08 10:19 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
JSshroom said: yes they will look different. cobweb, the green and all the other fun colors will come out on a substrate
it will look different when inoculated into a substrate but not necessarily the LC itself. it is very possible for the LC to look normal but be loaded with contams. This is one of the inherent weaknesses to LC. If you are not sure about the LC you can always noc up a half pint jar to see if it colonizes with healthy myc, thats typically a sure-fire way to detect if there are any contams within your LC
But again, if you noc up your LC with healthy mycelium as opposed to spores you can be much more confident that your LC will be successful assuming you followed proper sterile procedures.
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dill705
Amazed



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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: shroober]
#8136221 - 03/12/08 10:35 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why should it matter if you inoculate an LC with spores?
It's no different then inoculating PF jars with spores. The contams would get there the same way anyways.
If your vendor is selling you spore syringes with contams IN them, I'd switch to Sporeworks!
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jeetered
Stranger



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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: dill705]
#8136228 - 03/12/08 10:37 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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or ralphstersspores
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shroober
Myco Junkie


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 879
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: dill705]
#8136242 - 03/12/08 10:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
dill705 said: Why should it matter if you inoculate an LC with spores?
It's no different then inoculating PF jars with spores. The contams would get there the same way anyways.
If your vendor is selling you spore syringes with contams IN them, I'd switch to Sporeworks!
not everyone uses properly prepared spores, many people do trades and unfortunately sometimes you get some spores that have been contaminated. its not a problem if you use agar and are able to extract the healthy myc from the contam.
With a PF jar you can see contams pretty quickly. With an LC it will take much longer to notice contams and often times contams can go totally undetected in LC. Also, if you noc up a PF jar and it gets contamed you can simply throw away the jar and use the other healthy jars. With LC typically you don't make more than a couple of jars. I would much rather lose a PF jar to contams than an entire LC jar that has been colonizing for days or weeks.
Thats not to say you CANT noc up LC with spores, I've done it and it worked out fine. Its just safer IMO to noc up LC with mycelium so you can be more certain that your LC will be healthy.
And i agree, sporeworks kicks ass!
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dill705
Amazed



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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: shroober]
#8136262 - 03/12/08 10:46 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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5 shrooms for sporeworks, that's for sure.
I knew you'd come back with the "home print" thing. What can I say, but this guy I believe (or it was a different thread) already stated that he got his spores from Ralphsters, so his LC should be good. I'm ordering some Pan Cyan unless I can get a trade, and I'm nocing up LC directly for more genetic variation.
I hope we hear back about this "contam" issue soon...
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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shroober
Myco Junkie


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 879
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: dill705]
#8136310 - 03/12/08 10:57 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
dill705 said: 5 shrooms for sporeworks, that's for sure.
I knew you'd come back with the "home print" thing. What can I say, but this guy I believe (or it was a different thread) already stated that he got his spores from Ralphsters, so his LC should be good. I'm ordering some Pan Cyan unless I can get a trade, and I'm nocing up LC directly for more genetic variation.
I hope we hear back about this "contam" issue soon...
I agree, if i got spores directly from Ralphsters or Sporeworks I would feel much more comfortable inoculating an LC directly
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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: shroober]
#8137234 - 03/12/08 02:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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yup Cambodians from Ralph. My little test jar is for the LC in the pic, but I determined that the 2nd one was unfit for use, either by contams or damage or what have you (beige ish discolorations in the whisps were getting darker). I made a new one with slightly higher conc. of turbinado sugar (~2.8%) in a larger volume jar. Coffee filtered the sugar solution prior to PCing ~35 minutes at ~15psi to keep things clearer to see what's going on. Sealed my room off from all air exchange, gave all the walls and ceiling a once over with lysol, hotboxed the place with my ionic breeze, and oust bombed from multiple areas. Let the jar come to 75F, went and sat down at the desk very still a few minutes, oust bombed, sat still again, oust again. Glazed my desk, the syringe, the jar, and misted my walls/ceiling (on the desk's side of the room), skullcap (with all my hair tight up in it), bandana (tied over mouth and nose), neck, whole torso, hands and arms up to the shoulders with rubbing alcohol. Sat perfectly still with the oust in my hand for 10 minutes, and with only moving my arm, dispensed it up over the desk until it was a wide thick haze. Once it started raining down, I popped the sheath off the needle under an alcy soaked paper towel, gave the whole syringe and needle a good whiping with it. Went straight to the small alcohol candle on the desk and brought the tip to a dull red. I think some spores in it got burned because they formed a crusty obstructive barrier that made squirting a few drops otu quite laborious. I was able to pick this stuff out with my fingernail through the alcy soaked paper towel pretty easily, and then I reheated it again, squirted a few drops to clear it, and quenched in the paper towel with no problem. I held it in the paper towel by the tip while I swabbed my injection port clean. Then I sorta formed the paper towel with the needle in it into a tent of the rubbing alcohol's vapors over the injection port and inoculated it. Pulled the needle through the pinched paper towel while withdrawing it, and formed the tent again to replace the sheath.
I think the extent I took things to mmmight have been borderline manic and just excessive, but I want to feel confident that if any contams show up, I'll be able to rule out the procedural sterility variables and investigate from there.
This one only got a fraction of the spores that the first one did... no massive chunks. so it probably won't spring into action like before. But w/e I'll wait n see
-Jon
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dill705
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8137251 - 03/12/08 02:41 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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How about the jar your growing out?
Anything suspicious?
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 104
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: dill705]
#8138825 - 03/12/08 08:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I see a red-ish dot near the edge of the jar, accompanied with 3 or so specs elsewhere in the paste that are something between red and brown (to small to tell really well) It looks like how a speck of rust looks that gets smeared out by cloth or moving liquid. It's about 1/2mm across so I'm keeping an eye on it to see if it grows. Any guess what it might be? Are there any white/clear contams that grow red-ish once in a substrate? Pretty much everything went wrong from the start with this little thing, and I just didn't redo it immediately because if it came back clean with how shitty it was made, I could be sure it was good. Has anyone observed a contam like this come FROM THE LC? Or would you guys hypothesize that it came in during the sloppy inoculation? If there are no known contams that can hide in an LC that turn red like this, I'll certainly retest it and try to clear this jar's name (-:
The paste is aweful light in color for "brown" rice and while I think I see some white on the surface, it's very hard to tell. I can't determine what's myc and what's light reflections.
I looked Agar's thread up again (what inspired me to use turbinado) and his pics make me feel a little better about how my culture grew. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6378527/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1 (bout 3/4 the way down)
I've started occasionally mixing it with short high speed bursts on the magnetic stirrer, taking it up to speeds where the vortex is barely even cone shaped and it saturates the liquid with tiny air bubbles. It seems to help break the myc into more ropey pieces instead of just cohesive balls, and I'm fairly certain it's grown a bit more as a result. Right after I take it off the stirrer, it looks almost as heavy with myc pieces as agar's pic.
There are other people in that thread that say their turbinado LCs are stopping with a curiously small amt of myc in them. While I'll still be retesting mine for contam, surely all these people can't have them. Is just turbinado sugar to inbalanced of a diet for the myc to continue showing rigorous growth? monstermitch's recipe for example uses 3 or 4 (i beleive?) different ingredients. Surely this variety of complex and simple sugars is beneficial, no?
Edited by jonogt (03/12/08 09:51 PM)
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jonogt
Jon

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Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: my LCs germinated quick and strong and have now slowed down? [Re: jonogt]
#8139970 - 03/13/08 12:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't have a coffee grinder to get rice very well powdered and I tried to use a blender and it worked alright but still left chunks and the rice is just to light to see myc very well and this BRF paste thing is just a mess and really not my cup of tea.
Would there be any harm (beyond the obvious loss of time/materials) in skipping that and making a few half pint grain jars to inoculate with my LCs as a test? That way if it's good, I already have spawn on its way. If it's not, I'm only out a few ounces of rye berries. Wouldn't this also be a good way to test different levels of moisture? Make each one with a tad bit more or less and see which one the myc takes to best?
If it seems like I'm dragging my feet and making everything more difficult than it should be etc, I can't really help it. My current location (college town) doesn't have jack shit as far as ingredients and proper anything to do ANY of this stuff. Spring break starts friday and when I'm home I'll be obtaining good supplies of organic rye berries, light dry malt, dextrose, my hydrofarm heat mat, some hypoderm needles that aren't designed to puncture the great wall of china, and w/e else I find I need while there.
Unless someone has some objection to me making these half pint grain jars, I'm gonna do those while home too. If properly sterilized and kept with tin foil over the top, are grains pretty safe to leave un-inoculated for a couple days? Should they be kept cool or room temp or what? Situation being there might be a time gap between when we make em and when I get back up to school, cause I'm not gonna try and take my LCs with me driving halfway across the state, so I can't inoculate till I get back.
sorry that this has gotten a bit off topic thanks for the help -Jon
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