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Offlinedill705
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Michigan and Florida, your opinions?
    #8129953 - 03/11/08 01:24 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

As a Michigan Dem that didn't vote in the primary because my candidate wasn't even on the fucking ballot, I have strong feelings about what happens.

Clinton claims that the delegates should be seated as voted (she won both states). However, this is flawed logic. She claims that because voter turnout in Florida was very high, it would disenfranchise many voters. Obviously that's a shitty argument in MI, because she was the only candidate, only the people who can't stand her voted uncommitted. In Florida, however, there was a huge tax vote going on, as well. The few analysts who bring that up say that accounts for alot of the high turnout in that state.

Obama seems like he'll play ball for a fair re vote, but if Clinton pushes anything he has a disadvantage in, he essentially can say fuck that and it won't happen (this involves some obscure rules committee). Clinton can do the same and says she will "veto" a caucus re vote because Obama whoops her ass in caucuses.

As a citizen of MI, I had no say whatsoever in the decision that lead to our delegates being stripped, but the cost of a re vote won't come out of the pockets of anyone but the taxpayers, if there is a re vote. And quite frankly, that's FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Finally, I have a huge problem with a mail in vote as well. This is gaining more acceptance in both states. More people without any real knowledge of the candidates will vote, and probably fuck shit up. When you actually have to get up and go somewhere and invest time into it, it shows you care and probably better informed. A mail in ballot pretty much puts the power in the hands of the same people who vote that there fav way to ingest shrooms is anally. :kingtard:

What do you guys think, should our states be allowed to re vote? If so, how should it be done? Who should pay, the average Joe or the people who fucked up the first multi-million dollar primaries? Who do you think a re vote favors?


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8130294 - 03/11/08 03:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You shouldnt be able to revote. It isn't the DNC disenfranchising you, its your own elected officials. People in both states should not elect those officials any more, because they stupidly decided to disenfranchise a whole state.

A revote would be tainted, because now people in both states will say, "Well gosh, clinton was really fighting to give us a voice, let me give her my vote now" whenever Obama followed the rules.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8130561 - 03/11/08 06:32 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> As a citizen of MI, I had no say whatsoever in the decision that lead to our delegates being stripped

That is your own fault. Had you been involved in the democrat party in your state, then you would have had a say in the actions that resulted in the penalty. It was the members of your states democrat party that got their delegates stripped. Had they not decided to hold elections early, then your delegates would count. If you don't like it, then become more involved in the state democrat party, and replace the state democrat party leaders.


--------------------
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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8130976 - 03/11/08 10:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, that's a very uninformed statement.

First, I personally have been dicked around on mail in registration until about a month before the primary, when I gave in a said, fuck it, I'll wait an hour at the Secretary of State office.

Secondly, it wasn't the members of the democratic party that decided this. It was elected officials I never got to vote for. (I just truned twenty in Nov)

Thirdly, it wasn't just dems, but also republicans that made the decision to break party rules. Some theorize that in Florida the reblican controlled government actually hoped this would happen, because it's causing a huge scandal, that quite frankly looks very bad.

Besides, I really do question Iowa and New Hampshire's importance. However, our states would have gotten their importance by following the rules.

If you wanna still say it's the member's fault for voting for these officials, just remember that when they ran for office, they didn't make campaign promises of getting our delegates stripped.

Anyone else wanna blame this monstrous fuck up on me? :wink:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131063 - 03/11/08 11:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think Republicans should start re-registering now, vote for Obama in the re-vote, then switch back to McCain in the general.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131094 - 03/11/08 11:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good idea, he might actually beat Hilary, and what self-respecting republican wants McCain to win :rolleyes:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131138 - 03/11/08 12:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> Anyone else wanna blame this monstrous fuck up on me? :wink:

I'm not blaming the monstrous fuck up on you, I am blaming your lack of input into the monstrous fuck up on you.  It is your own fault that you are not willing to give a pound of flesh (or whatever is required) to influence the Democrat Party's system.  It is not your own fault that the Democrat Party's system is "fucked up".

Quote:

First, I personally have been dicked around on mail in registration until about a month before the primary, when I gave in a said, fuck it, I'll wait an hour at the Secretary of State office.




What does this have to do with the Democrat party?  If you are too lazy to register to vote until a month before the primary when it is super busy with everybody else that was too lazy to register to vote.....

Quote:

Secondly, it wasn't the members of the democratic party that decided this. It was elected officials I never got to vote for. (I just truned twenty in Nov)




You don't have to be of voting age to be active in the Democrat Party.  Just because you were too young to vote in an election does not mean that your voice cannot be heard within the party you support.

Quote:

Thirdly, it wasn't just dems, but also republicans that made the decision to break party rules. Some theorize that in Florida the reblican controlled government actually hoped this would happen, because it's causing a huge scandal, that quite frankly looks very bad.




Each party decided on their own.  Don't try pushing the blame (or half the blame) off on the Republican Party.  The Democrat Party runs by their own rules.  (Unless your state is really messed up and somehow ties the parties together...)

Quote:

Besides, I really do question Iowa and New Hampshire's importance. However, our states would have gotten their importance by following the rules.




I agree here.  The party system is lame, as are the "early states" deciding it for everybody claims.


--------------------
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8131359 - 03/11/08 01:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If the Democratic party imposed the same kind of penalty that the Republicans did on Michigan and Florida — stripping them of Half of their delegates — the problem would not exist....

I was at a party last weekend and overheard a Doctor and a Lawyer blaming this mess on the republicans.

Idiots


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131375 - 03/11/08 01:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:
what self-respecting republican wants McCain to win :rolleyes:





As a "self-respecting Republican" I would take McCain over Obama any-day!

Obama is not qualified to coach a little league baseball team.



"I will work hard to make sure Americans aren't deceived by an eloquent but empty call for change," John McCain


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8131379 - 03/11/08 01:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:If you don't like it, then become more involved in the state democrat party, and replace the state democrat party leaders.


Or choose a different liberally minded party to support.


As a conservative voter I have perspective that isnt muddled with my choice of candidate. I think neither of the states should get seats. The party gets to run itself the way it wants, the states agreed to these (stupid) rules, thats how it goes. If I were a democrat, this would be a good reason to change parties.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131389 - 03/11/08 01:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion. They have a supermajority of republicans in the senate and house. They voted in the senate and house, and then had their reoublican governor signed off to move the primary up and break party rules.

Which leads me to a question for those in the know about this... are parties not private organizations? Why is it that state governments choose when primaries are, rather than democrats?


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8131397 - 03/11/08 01:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If I were a democrat, this would be a good reason to change parties.




Lol.

This is is not a reason to change parties. I AM a democrat, and quite honestly, this is reason enough to stay away from the republican party for me. Furthermore, no party represents my views more than the democratic party, so good try there.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131406 - 03/11/08 01:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.miamiherald.com/campaign08/story/437352.html

Here is a recent poll, by the way.

Only 24% of Floridians want the election to stand.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131411 - 03/11/08 01:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion.

I thought Florida Senator Jeremy Ring was a democrat? Isn't he the one that spearheaded the move to change Florida's primary date back in 2006/2007?


--------------------
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131427 - 03/11/08 01:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion. They have a supermajority of republicans in the senate and house.





The Florida House first voted on it in March of 2007 115-1.

Then in May 2007 it voted 118-0 on the final draft.

That vote included a great number of Democrats. The Florida Senate voted 37-2 in favor of the measure.


Only 3 legislators voted against it. There are many more than 3 Democrats in the Florida Legislature.

Today there are 14 Democratic State Senators and 42 Democratic State Representatives.


Every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.


I reapeat every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.





whats next?

Let me guess..

It's All George Bush's Fault!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131443 - 03/11/08 01:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not blaming the repubs, but in both these states the vote was held on the same day for both parties, and has widely been reported as a non-partisan decision to challenge Iowa's, etc. influence.

Also, I started trying to register about a year ago, when my first chance to vote came. I registered by filling out the paperwork and sending it to MI SoS office in our capital, Lansing, as per instructions on the states website.

Then I was supposed to recieve my card in the mail. It never came. So a couple of months later, I tried again. Again, no return mail from my state.

So a couple of months later I said fuck it, and took the paperwork myself to the SoS and recieved a receipt, and got my card 2 weeks later.

Finally, I haven't had a car until recently and my home county does NOT have ANY meetings for dems. This county is right where the suburbs of Detroit become the farmland of my parent's area. Very republican, hasn't voted a dem into the state legislature on decades.

As such, it just wasn't easy for me to have a say without convincing my parents to drive me 30+ miles away and wait a couple hours for me.

You simply can't put the blame on the people. Almost everyone in our country wonders why the parties suck the first couple states dicks every election year. If I were in charge it fight it, too.

What the people had no say in, however, was
the punishment decided in an obscure committee that no one has heard of until the press covered it briefly a few days ago. If the people had known this, maybe more would have stood up for other states to have more prominence in the election callender.

I for one, don't think there should be a revote, but, if the states find the money and the campaigns agree (they will for feel of discriminating millions of voters in two key general states), there will be a revote.

But fuck this talk about who's fault it is, let's discuss the best way to go about a revote.

There's been lots of talk of a mail in, which I already covered. I hear it's the cheapest way.Then there's caucus, then there's the "firehouse" primary where there will also be caucuses like in Texas.

Also, who should foot the bill, the taxpayers for when it comes down to it have no final say, or the career politicians who fuck us over.

And I say the people have no say because, medical marijuana has been overwhelmingly approved of across MI for years, but our pussy politicians can't just write a bill and get shit done, it's gotta be on the ballot in Nov. They just don't listen/care about us.

But Michigan sucks anyways... I gotta get out of this state, maybe even this country if at the convention the person with fewer votes/delegates gets the nomination.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8131454 - 03/11/08 01:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

HB537 was written by a Florida Republican to change Florida's primary date.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131466 - 03/11/08 01:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

supernovasky said:
I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion. They have a supermajority of republicans in the senate and house.




The Florida House first voted on it in March of 2007 115-1.

Then in May 2007 it voted 118-0 on the final draft.

That vote included a great number of Democrats. The Florida Senate voted 37-2 in favor of the measure.


Only 3 legislators voted against it. There are many more than 3 Democrats in the Florida Legislature.

Today there are 14 Democratic State Senators and 42 Democratic State Representatives.


Every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.


I reapeat every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.





whats next?

Let me guess..

It's All George Bush's Fault!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131471 - 03/11/08 01:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Quote:

If I were a democrat, this would be a good reason to change parties.




Lol.

This is is not a reason to change parties. I AM a democrat, and quite honestly, this is reason enough to stay away from the republican party for me. Furthermore, no party represents my views more than the democratic party, so good try there.


False dichotmy. You assumed I meant change parties to the republicans? I did not. There is a whole host of liberal parties out there. If people get rid of their Reb. vs Dem. mindset, the arena of ideas would be more open to the so called 'third parties'.

If Republicans fucked me over like that, it would be a good reason to vote libertarian for a few years (as If I need more of a reason). Democrats fucked you over, so maybe join the green party, or the socialist party?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131473 - 03/11/08 01:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:









I for one, don't think there should be a revote,

But fuck this talk about who's fault it is, let's discuss the best way to go about a revote.






yep


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131478 - 03/11/08 01:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Today there are 14 Democratic State Senators and 42 Democratic State Representatives.




There are 26 Republican state senators and 78 state republicans. Before the bill passed, they got a few "democrats" to jump on. The bill was going to pass no matter WHAT happened. The fact of the matter is, it was a bill passed by a vast-majority republican legislature, drafted by a republican. Only 24% of Floridians want that result to stand.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8131481 - 03/11/08 01:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If Republicans fucked me over like that, it would be a good reason to vote libertarian for a few years (as If I need more of a reason). Democrats fucked you over, so maybe join the green party, or the socialist party?




I don't fully believe democrats fucked me over. A state legislature with a republican vicegrip on its balls fucked the people of Florida over. A republican-written bill to change the democratic primary date, passed in a nearly-supermajority republican house, and signed off by a republican governor fucked me over.

And no third party represents my beliefs better than the democratic party.

I also believe in the grand scheme of things, this wont matter. On May 20th, it is likely that Obama will be above 1627 pleadged delegates, many analysits are projecting. This would mean that he'd be declared the victor of the 2008 pledged delegate race. So after that, he would have won twice the states as Clinton, won the pledged delegate race, won the popular vote, and pretty much locked up the nomination.


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Edited by supernovasky (03/11/08 01:51 PM)


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131495 - 03/11/08 01:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:

That may be the only time we ever agree. :wink:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131518 - 03/11/08 01:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Eh, I think your a little of base blaming the repubs, lonestar had some (i hate to admit it) good numbers and the dems could have raised hell in Florida and got the public involved, buiut still, most people don't like that Iowa and N.H. get there dicks sucked every 4 years.

When is it our turn for some action, huh?


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131524 - 03/11/08 01:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Quote:


Today there are 14 Democratic State Senators and 42 Democratic State Representatives.




There are 26 Republican state senators and 78 state republicans. Before the bill passed, they got a few "democrats" to jump on. 





115-1.

Then  118-0 on the final draft.


how is that " a few democrats"???


whatever i give up. Maybe the Democrats should Sue the republicans!:rolleyes:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131529 - 03/11/08 01:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Florida dems, in this super-republican legislature, are known to be a bit Lieberman-esque. Maybe I am a bit off base because they didn't raise hell, but like I said, the bill would have passed even if every democrat voted no. I personally think that had the dems voted no, the bill would have still passed, and republicans would have said "see how much the democrats care about your state? They didn't even want to give Florida an early voice"


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131537 - 03/11/08 01:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

115-1.

Then 118-0 on the final draft.


how is that " a few democrats"???




Maybe you didn't understand the meaning of "before the bill passed."

As in, they got at least 2 or 3 democrats to jump on boards before they went to vote on the bill, indicating that a supermajority (80 people in the house, 28 people in the senate) would ensure the bills passage no matter what.


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131553 - 03/11/08 02:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

whatever i give up. Maybe the Democrats should Sue the republicans!




No, but to say that this is the democrats fault in Florida is disingenuous. Democrats had little say in this matter. I will say it again.... Republican written bill, Republican near-supermajority house, republican near-supermajority senate, republican governor, chose the date of the democratic primary. And you want to blame the democrats? The everyday democrat had no say in this matter, and even if they did, and all of the democrat votes in the legislature would have been no, the bill would have still passed with a big majority.


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Edited by supernovasky (03/11/08 02:13 PM)


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131581 - 03/11/08 02:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That is exactly my point in saying it's not my fault that my states delegates fro taken away, the average joe probably didn't even know about the earlier primary until after it had passed.

There is much to be desired in Michigans news media...


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My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131616 - 03/11/08 02:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Quote:

whatever i give up. Maybe the Democrats should Sue the republicans!




No, but to say that this is the democrats fault in Florida is disingenuous. And you want to blame the democrats?




i never once blamed the democrats.

do you understand that?

only YOU blamed the Republicans.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131624 - 03/11/08 02:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I just can't believe that I'm not hearing anyone in the news media
deride the respective state parties for allowing this to happen after
they signed agreements that allowed Nevada and South Carolina primaries
to occur early enough to balance out the disproportionality of IA and NH
with the more diverse racial and socioeconomic populations in NV and SC.

Nevermind the fact that NO ONE seems to be mentioning the fact that Obama
wasn't even on the MI ballot in the MSM.

WHAT FUCKING SENSE DOES IT MAKE TO SEAT THOSE DELEGATES!?

People broke the rules and purposely disenfranchised their entire state
voting block. It sounds like a sound look at who those people are is in
order.

That being said, the coverage on this shit is so unbalanced and incomplete
that it sickens me.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131631 - 03/11/08 02:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


i never once blamed the democrats.

do you understand that?

only YOU blamed the Republicans.




Given you never blamed the democrats, others did in this forum, and as it remains, it was still NOT the democrats fault that this happened.

I do blame republicans (not all republicans, just Florida legislature republicans). Is it not right to blame them for a bill they authored, passed through a near supermajority house, passed through a near supermajority senate, and then passed into the republican governor's hands?


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: afoaf]
    #8131652 - 03/11/08 02:27 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
I just can't believe that I'm not hearing anyone in the news media
deride the respective state parties for allowing this to happen after
they signed agreements that allowed Nevada and South Carolina primaries
to occur early enough to balance out the disproportionality of IA and NH
with the more diverse racial and socioeconomic populations in NV and SC.









i forgot all about that.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131722 - 03/11/08 02:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, that's interesting.

Did all the states have to agree on th emove up for S.C. and Nevada?

If so, FUCK MI and FL :kingtard:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8136213 - 03/12/08 12:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

yes, it was a nationally sanctioned decision.

MI and FL decided to break the rules and in the process fucked themselves
and their states.

they do not get a do-over.

and they don't get to blame anyone for disenfranchisement except themselves.

they knew the penalty for running early.


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: afoaf]
    #8136227 - 03/12/08 12:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Man, this is a complex issue. See, on one hand, its Michigan and Florida's fault that this happened. However, it is not the everyday, Michigan/Florida democrat's fault that this happened, it is the weak democrats in the house and senate of Florida, and the reactionary democrats in the house and senate of Michigan. Florida made the decision first, and it was a bill authored by republicans, passed through a near supermajority republican house, passed through a near supermajority republican senate, and passed into the hands of a republican governor. The state democratic committee had no choice but to go along, and thus did not make this decision.

I personally believe that there have been efforts on all sides to sabotage the democratic primaries by republicans.

Check this out, a new story today..

24% of Hillary voters yesterday in Mississippi had a strong liking of John McCain
around 25% said that they would be dissatisfied if Clinton was commander and chief.

I really do believe that 25% of Hillary's votes in open primaries come from people who will be voting for McCain, and are listening to Rush to game the primaries.


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: afoaf]
    #8136232 - 03/12/08 12:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Man, we all know they probably will get a do-over if the money can be found.

Hillary will take it to court and win because some conservative judge will think she'll have a better chance of winning the nomination and then losing to McCain.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8136860 - 03/12/08 02:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think open primaries should be done away with.

if you can't do a little due diligence, determine your candidate and
re-register (if necessary) before the election then you're a fucking
moron and don't deserve to vote anywho.

all these republicans voting for hillary is election sabotage, imo.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: afoaf]
    #8136887 - 03/12/08 03:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:

Yeah, forcing a re-register is a good idea.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8139367 - 03/12/08 11:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No F'ing re-vote. Seriously the rules are the rules. Both states knew the rules, and decided to ignore them. The fact of the matter is that we might piss off all the people in FL and MI and they might turn out for republicans more. A travesty to be sure. If we have a re-vote, and lets say that Clinton wins both the states and takes the nomination, then every Obama fan like me is going to be irate about having another election stolen from them. Where normally I might just vote Clinton in the general election because she too is a good candidate, all the sudden I might just vote for a goldfish cracker, because I don't vote for people who steal elections, and I sure as hell am not going to vote for the third reincarnation of John McCain. Then the Dem's would loose.

The Democrats want to win FL and MI to be sure, they certainly don't want to disenfranchise their voter blocks. Quite frankly thats why they set up these rules in the first place.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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