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Offlinedill705
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Michigan and Florida, your opinions?
    #8129953 - 03/11/08 01:24 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

As a Michigan Dem that didn't vote in the primary because my candidate wasn't even on the fucking ballot, I have strong feelings about what happens.

Clinton claims that the delegates should be seated as voted (she won both states). However, this is flawed logic. She claims that because voter turnout in Florida was very high, it would disenfranchise many voters. Obviously that's a shitty argument in MI, because she was the only candidate, only the people who can't stand her voted uncommitted. In Florida, however, there was a huge tax vote going on, as well. The few analysts who bring that up say that accounts for alot of the high turnout in that state.

Obama seems like he'll play ball for a fair re vote, but if Clinton pushes anything he has a disadvantage in, he essentially can say fuck that and it won't happen (this involves some obscure rules committee). Clinton can do the same and says she will "veto" a caucus re vote because Obama whoops her ass in caucuses.

As a citizen of MI, I had no say whatsoever in the decision that lead to our delegates being stripped, but the cost of a re vote won't come out of the pockets of anyone but the taxpayers, if there is a re vote. And quite frankly, that's FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Finally, I have a huge problem with a mail in vote as well. This is gaining more acceptance in both states. More people without any real knowledge of the candidates will vote, and probably fuck shit up. When you actually have to get up and go somewhere and invest time into it, it shows you care and probably better informed. A mail in ballot pretty much puts the power in the hands of the same people who vote that there fav way to ingest shrooms is anally. :kingtard:

What do you guys think, should our states be allowed to re vote? If so, how should it be done? Who should pay, the average Joe or the people who fucked up the first multi-million dollar primaries? Who do you think a re vote favors?


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My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8130294 - 03/11/08 03:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You shouldnt be able to revote. It isn't the DNC disenfranchising you, its your own elected officials. People in both states should not elect those officials any more, because they stupidly decided to disenfranchise a whole state.

A revote would be tainted, because now people in both states will say, "Well gosh, clinton was really fighting to give us a voice, let me give her my vote now" whenever Obama followed the rules.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8130561 - 03/11/08 06:32 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> As a citizen of MI, I had no say whatsoever in the decision that lead to our delegates being stripped

That is your own fault. Had you been involved in the democrat party in your state, then you would have had a say in the actions that resulted in the penalty. It was the members of your states democrat party that got their delegates stripped. Had they not decided to hold elections early, then your delegates would count. If you don't like it, then become more involved in the state democrat party, and replace the state democrat party leaders.


--------------------
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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8130976 - 03/11/08 10:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, that's a very uninformed statement.

First, I personally have been dicked around on mail in registration until about a month before the primary, when I gave in a said, fuck it, I'll wait an hour at the Secretary of State office.

Secondly, it wasn't the members of the democratic party that decided this. It was elected officials I never got to vote for. (I just truned twenty in Nov)

Thirdly, it wasn't just dems, but also republicans that made the decision to break party rules. Some theorize that in Florida the reblican controlled government actually hoped this would happen, because it's causing a huge scandal, that quite frankly looks very bad.

Besides, I really do question Iowa and New Hampshire's importance. However, our states would have gotten their importance by following the rules.

If you wanna still say it's the member's fault for voting for these officials, just remember that when they ran for office, they didn't make campaign promises of getting our delegates stripped.

Anyone else wanna blame this monstrous fuck up on me? :wink:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131063 - 03/11/08 11:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think Republicans should start re-registering now, vote for Obama in the re-vote, then switch back to McCain in the general.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131094 - 03/11/08 11:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good idea, he might actually beat Hilary, and what self-respecting republican wants McCain to win :rolleyes:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131138 - 03/11/08 12:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> Anyone else wanna blame this monstrous fuck up on me? :wink:

I'm not blaming the monstrous fuck up on you, I am blaming your lack of input into the monstrous fuck up on you.  It is your own fault that you are not willing to give a pound of flesh (or whatever is required) to influence the Democrat Party's system.  It is not your own fault that the Democrat Party's system is "fucked up".

Quote:

First, I personally have been dicked around on mail in registration until about a month before the primary, when I gave in a said, fuck it, I'll wait an hour at the Secretary of State office.




What does this have to do with the Democrat party?  If you are too lazy to register to vote until a month before the primary when it is super busy with everybody else that was too lazy to register to vote.....

Quote:

Secondly, it wasn't the members of the democratic party that decided this. It was elected officials I never got to vote for. (I just truned twenty in Nov)




You don't have to be of voting age to be active in the Democrat Party.  Just because you were too young to vote in an election does not mean that your voice cannot be heard within the party you support.

Quote:

Thirdly, it wasn't just dems, but also republicans that made the decision to break party rules. Some theorize that in Florida the reblican controlled government actually hoped this would happen, because it's causing a huge scandal, that quite frankly looks very bad.




Each party decided on their own.  Don't try pushing the blame (or half the blame) off on the Republican Party.  The Democrat Party runs by their own rules.  (Unless your state is really messed up and somehow ties the parties together...)

Quote:

Besides, I really do question Iowa and New Hampshire's importance. However, our states would have gotten their importance by following the rules.




I agree here.  The party system is lame, as are the "early states" deciding it for everybody claims.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8131359 - 03/11/08 01:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If the Democratic party imposed the same kind of penalty that the Republicans did on Michigan and Florida — stripping them of Half of their delegates — the problem would not exist....

I was at a party last weekend and overheard a Doctor and a Lawyer blaming this mess on the republicans.

Idiots


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131375 - 03/11/08 01:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:
what self-respecting republican wants McCain to win :rolleyes:





As a "self-respecting Republican" I would take McCain over Obama any-day!

Obama is not qualified to coach a little league baseball team.



"I will work hard to make sure Americans aren't deceived by an eloquent but empty call for change," John McCain


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8131379 - 03/11/08 01:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:If you don't like it, then become more involved in the state democrat party, and replace the state democrat party leaders.


Or choose a different liberally minded party to support.


As a conservative voter I have perspective that isnt muddled with my choice of candidate. I think neither of the states should get seats. The party gets to run itself the way it wants, the states agreed to these (stupid) rules, thats how it goes. If I were a democrat, this would be a good reason to change parties.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131389 - 03/11/08 01:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion. They have a supermajority of republicans in the senate and house. They voted in the senate and house, and then had their reoublican governor signed off to move the primary up and break party rules.

Which leads me to a question for those in the know about this... are parties not private organizations? Why is it that state governments choose when primaries are, rather than democrats?


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8131397 - 03/11/08 01:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If I were a democrat, this would be a good reason to change parties.




Lol.

This is is not a reason to change parties. I AM a democrat, and quite honestly, this is reason enough to stay away from the republican party for me. Furthermore, no party represents my views more than the democratic party, so good try there.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131406 - 03/11/08 01:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.miamiherald.com/campaign08/story/437352.html

Here is a recent poll, by the way.

Only 24% of Floridians want the election to stand.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131411 - 03/11/08 01:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion.

I thought Florida Senator Jeremy Ring was a democrat? Isn't he the one that spearheaded the move to change Florida's primary date back in 2006/2007?


--------------------
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131427 - 03/11/08 01:33 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion. They have a supermajority of republicans in the senate and house.





The Florida House first voted on it in March of 2007 115-1.

Then in May 2007 it voted 118-0 on the final draft.

That vote included a great number of Democrats. The Florida Senate voted 37-2 in favor of the measure.


Only 3 legislators voted against it. There are many more than 3 Democrats in the Florida Legislature.

Today there are 14 Democratic State Senators and 42 Democratic State Representatives.


Every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.


I reapeat every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.





whats next?

Let me guess..

It's All George Bush's Fault!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8131443 - 03/11/08 01:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not blaming the repubs, but in both these states the vote was held on the same day for both parties, and has widely been reported as a non-partisan decision to challenge Iowa's, etc. influence.

Also, I started trying to register about a year ago, when my first chance to vote came. I registered by filling out the paperwork and sending it to MI SoS office in our capital, Lansing, as per instructions on the states website.

Then I was supposed to recieve my card in the mail. It never came. So a couple of months later, I tried again. Again, no return mail from my state.

So a couple of months later I said fuck it, and took the paperwork myself to the SoS and recieved a receipt, and got my card 2 weeks later.

Finally, I haven't had a car until recently and my home county does NOT have ANY meetings for dems. This county is right where the suburbs of Detroit become the farmland of my parent's area. Very republican, hasn't voted a dem into the state legislature on decades.

As such, it just wasn't easy for me to have a say without convincing my parents to drive me 30+ miles away and wait a couple hours for me.

You simply can't put the blame on the people. Almost everyone in our country wonders why the parties suck the first couple states dicks every election year. If I were in charge it fight it, too.

What the people had no say in, however, was
the punishment decided in an obscure committee that no one has heard of until the press covered it briefly a few days ago. If the people had known this, maybe more would have stood up for other states to have more prominence in the election callender.

I for one, don't think there should be a revote, but, if the states find the money and the campaigns agree (they will for feel of discriminating millions of voters in two key general states), there will be a revote.

But fuck this talk about who's fault it is, let's discuss the best way to go about a revote.

There's been lots of talk of a mail in, which I already covered. I hear it's the cheapest way.Then there's caucus, then there's the "firehouse" primary where there will also be caucuses like in Texas.

Also, who should foot the bill, the taxpayers for when it comes down to it have no final say, or the career politicians who fuck us over.

And I say the people have no say because, medical marijuana has been overwhelmingly approved of across MI for years, but our pussy politicians can't just write a bill and get shit done, it's gotta be on the ballot in Nov. They just don't listen/care about us.

But Michigan sucks anyways... I gotta get out of this state, maybe even this country if at the convention the person with fewer votes/delegates gets the nomination.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8131454 - 03/11/08 01:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

HB537 was written by a Florida Republican to change Florida's primary date.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131466 - 03/11/08 01:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

supernovasky said:
I will say this, Florida WAS caused by republicans, in my opinion. They have a supermajority of republicans in the senate and house.




The Florida House first voted on it in March of 2007 115-1.

Then in May 2007 it voted 118-0 on the final draft.

That vote included a great number of Democrats. The Florida Senate voted 37-2 in favor of the measure.


Only 3 legislators voted against it. There are many more than 3 Democrats in the Florida Legislature.

Today there are 14 Democratic State Senators and 42 Democratic State Representatives.


Every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.


I reapeat every single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.





whats next?

Let me guess..

It's All George Bush's Fault!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: supernovasky]
    #8131471 - 03/11/08 01:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Quote:

If I were a democrat, this would be a good reason to change parties.




Lol.

This is is not a reason to change parties. I AM a democrat, and quite honestly, this is reason enough to stay away from the republican party for me. Furthermore, no party represents my views more than the democratic party, so good try there.


False dichotmy. You assumed I meant change parties to the republicans? I did not. There is a whole host of liberal parties out there. If people get rid of their Reb. vs Dem. mindset, the arena of ideas would be more open to the so called 'third parties'.

If Republicans fucked me over like that, it would be a good reason to vote libertarian for a few years (as If I need more of a reason). Democrats fucked you over, so maybe join the green party, or the socialist party?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Michigan and Florida, your opinions? [Re: dill705]
    #8131473 - 03/11/08 01:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:









I for one, don't think there should be a revote,

But fuck this talk about who's fault it is, let's discuss the best way to go about a revote.






yep


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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