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jonogt
Jon

Registered: 12/27/07
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a few questions about trying grain jars 1
#8126738 - 03/10/08 08:55 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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So finally after tinkering enough I have 2 good strong LCs growing that should be ready within 2 or 3 days. I was going to do PF jars but after reading and seeing enough pictures, grains sound like a much better choice all around. , and I have a pressure cooker.
I found a source of organic rye berries, but one of the issues I'm concerned about is PCing. I'm borrowing a friends little 6 qt presto, so I'll only have room to make pint jars, not quarts. I really have seen ONLY quarts discussed for grain jars, but would there be any actual problem with pints? Again I'd be innoculating these with liquid culture.
The other thing is filters... everything I've seen shows the use of tyvek discs with a hole in the lid. I'm partial to polyfil-stuffed holes with a separate silicone injection port. Is there any reason why this is inappropriate for grain jars?
I also have seen in RR's preview video and such, giving the jars a good shake to distribute the myc and speed up colonization part way through. Does doing this not risk whicking contams in through the filter?
My plan is to case them in aluminum trays in a terrarium. What's the best beginner casing mix to do this with? I've been looking mostly at Magash's tek for inspiration.
Any other comments for a newb trying to get in slightly over his head are welcome (=
thanks -Jon
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resptodd
I reject yourreality andsubstitute myown



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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8126775 - 03/10/08 09:15 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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No problem using pints, use what U got, you'll be using the grain to spawn a bulk substrate anyway. Polyfill filters are fine with what you're doing, you shouldn't shake until the myc' has a good foothold anyway, I shake at 30% to 50% colonization once and only once. The best bulk substrate (IMHO) would be composted Hpoo, but there are many different bulk subs' out there: straight wheat straw, coco coir mixes, some weird ass coffee mixes, read up find one you'll be comfortable with and go with it. Now that you have LCs, you have an opportunity to experiment a bit, because everything goes quicker.
-------------------- Damn! I'm having fun! Just keep the GD monkeys away.
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myelination
psychopharmacologist


Registered: 02/21/08
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: resptodd]
#8126864 - 03/10/08 09:54 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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resptodd covered just about everything except for a few minor points. casing mixs can vary quite a bit. for a n00b without the necessary supplies, possibly using a premixed casing material like MiracleGro Moisture Control or Jiffy Mix would be the best options. also, you might want to use opaque plastic for your trays: mycelial growth (metabolites?) tends to "eat" through aluminum.
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jonogt
Jon

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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: myelination]
#8129917 - 03/10/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not planning to do a bulk substrate right now... just casing. I read a lot about the procedure for bulk, and it sounds quite a bit more complex and prone to error, especially for a beginner.
Didn't realize you could use a simple pre-made potting mix from the hardware store for casing. That sounds good to me.
On the trays... what is a good actual product for this? Don't they need to be able to handle atleast 200 in the oven? Most trays that look like they'd be good for this are pretty translucent. Do they not have to be perfectly opaque to prevent fruiting where it's not wanted? What about simply lining Al trays with saran wrap and then putting your casing mix in? will the saran wrap melt/deform in the oven or would it be OK?
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Mana
Substance ofSouls


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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8129979 - 03/10/08 11:30 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I use plastic trays just fine. You won't put your casing in the oven so don't worry about the highest temperature it can handle. Are you thinking of putting it in the oven to pasteurize the casing layer? This is a pic of a pinset in a little shoebox plastic container.

If you want you can put foil in your container to stop bottom and side pinning.
-------------------- Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
How to become immortal: Read this signature tomorrow and follow its advice.
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dill705
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8130007 - 03/10/08 11:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I found jars in between pint and quart jars that fit in my 6 qt presto at Meijer.
No, I'm using the polyfil shit as well, it wont let contams in when you shake the jars. Besides, you should only need to shake them once or twice.
Also, I've used Al for trays repeatedly and have yet to see any decomposition. They do get dirty, though.
Also, why would you bake the tray? Get some clorox wipes or rubbing alcohol and wipe that shit down. Never had a problem. And really, bulk subs aren't that much different then applying a casing layer. Sure, there's more chance for contams, but the payoff is huge if you can be sterile. I like Lysol spray myself. I've yet to have a contam ruin a whole grow.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jonogt
Jon

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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: dill705]
#8130114 - 03/11/08 12:08 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Aight it sounds like I'm a bit off on some of the casing steps.
I see a lot of the teks recommend adding oyster shells or oyster shell flour. Would I need these if using miracle gro MC, or is it already pH buffered to a good level? Where do I find it if I need em?
I'm confused on pastuerizing... Cleaning the tray itself with clorox or rubbing alcy I'm fine with, but when/how do you pastuerize your bottom and top casing layers? What I gathered from reading is you put your bottom casing in the tray you will be using and then cook it in the oven at pastuerizing temp with foil or something moisture-retaining over it. When its cool you spread your colonized substrate over it, and then add the top casing layer over that.
Also, when using grains, do you actually break the rye berries apart and spread them for casing, or do you just spread the individual colonized pieces?
thanks -Jon
PS: Al trays getting dirty can they be put in the dishwasher?
If I can get this to work with just casing, like I start seeing it successfully colonize the casing layer, then I'll start adding ones to my FC with bulk substrate. For now I need to just get something successful moving.
Edited by jonogt (03/11/08 12:10 AM)
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dill705
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8130129 - 03/11/08 12:13 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, you put the casing layer in a filter patch bag (check the vendors) or a pillow case and pastuerize in hot water. You need to be able to check the internal temp though, to be sure that it reaches the correct temp, then start the timing.
I just bought some filter bags and PC'd em up, works great for me 
I don't really understand the last question, the grains should mostly come apart when you pour them out of the jar. The goal is even distribution.
Hope that helps
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jonogt
Jon

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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: dill705]
#8130173 - 03/11/08 12:23 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have a wired-probe thermometer that I can check internal temp with. It's 175 right? wouldn't using a pillow case get it wayy to wet? What about just basic oven bags? Just past. them in there, allow to cool, and then spread it out straight from the bag to the tray?
the last question i meant do you actually have to break up the individual berries and then evenly distribute them. Or do they break up on their own during PCing and colonization? Or do they stay whole and you just spread the whole berries evenly?
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dill705
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8130203 - 03/11/08 12:32 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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When you shake the jars the berries should break apart, that's how it spreads the growth, the individual berries will move throughout the jar. Just shake the jar up and pour it in.
I don't pasteurize so I don't know exact figures on temp, but on memory alone (search for verification), that sounds fine. I've only heard of the pillowcase thing, like I said, I splurged and got the filter patch bags for like $15. got 25 of them and typically they can be reused a few times. I think it's a good investment.
I've never heard of those oven bags, but it sounds like they would work.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jonogt
Jon

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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: dill705]
#8130255 - 03/11/08 12:57 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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cool.
on the grain jars, some teks say to add some gypsum to the berries and mix it in. Is this available at home depot or something? Is it needed or just a good idea or should I stay away from it or what's it even do?
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dill705
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8130952 - 03/11/08 08:45 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have no experience with gypsum, but in RR's video he uses it, so it's probably good. I just don't know if he puts it in grains or not. I think he only used it in poo, but I may be wrong.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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Mana
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8130999 - 03/11/08 09:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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The gypsum is to stop the grains from sticking together. I've tried it but I don't use it anymore in grain jars because the grains don't stick together as long as you rinse them thoroughly after they soak. If you are worried about the grains clumping anyway then you can add a little gypsum to each jar without a problem. Powdered gypsum was hard to find. I had to call a lot of gardening stores. But a lot of people suggest crushing up drywall from somewhere like Home Depot to get powdered gypsum.
-------------------- Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
How to become immortal: Read this signature tomorrow and follow its advice.
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Mana
Substance ofSouls


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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8131030 - 03/11/08 09:19 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
jonogt said: I have a wired-probe thermometer that I can check internal temp with. It's 175 right? wouldn't using a pillow case get it Way to wet? What about just basic oven bags? Just past. them in there, allow to cool, and then spread it out straight from the bag to the tray?
the last question i meant do you actually have to break up the individual berries and then evenly distribute them. Or do they break up on their own during PCing and colonization? Or do they stay whole and you just spread the whole berries evenly?
Pasteurization temp. is from 140 to 160 but if it goes higher you will probably be OK.
Pasteurizing in a pillow case is too wet 
RR uses the jars to pasteurize casing material but you can also do a small pot inside of a bigger pot that has boiling water in it. Put the wet casing mix in the smaller pot and adjust the temperature as needed.
Oven bags didn't work to well for me but they may for you.
Casing mix straight from the bag (or pot or jar) to the tray is fine after it's cooled.
The berries should always break apart just by rotating the jar until there is myc holding it together. At that point you can use something like RR's tire trick to knock them apart.
-------------------- Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
How to become immortal: Read this signature tomorrow and follow its advice.
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jonogt
Jon

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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: Mana]
#8131459 - 03/11/08 11:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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thanks guys. on the qt jars I took out the little tray in the bottom and they fit fine. thanks for the tip I guess I should have investigated more thoroughly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Jonogt/p1010004-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Jonogt/p1010001.jpg
not really the topic but that's a pic from one of my LCs I plan to use. They started fast and strong but the last 2 days have really slowed down on growth and I'm wondering if there's contamination or if they ran out of nutrients or what. 2.5% turbinado sugar solution. the dark specks are the remains of spore clumps.
btw blz3432, does the presto 6qt cook at 10 or 15 psi? I thought it was 15 from stuff i saw online, but when I got it the manual said it was 10. Is that incorrect? Can you just add some extra load onto the pressure regulating weight, or will the safety valve kick in before it gets to 15?
Edited by jonogt (03/11/08 11:47 AM)
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blz3432
Stranger
Registered: 11/25/07
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars *DELETED* [Re: jonogt]
#8131745 - 03/11/08 12:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by blz3432Reason for deletion: nevermind
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dill705
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: blz3432]
#8131750 - 03/11/08 12:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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My manual also says 15 psi.
I wonder what the discrepancy is?
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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jonogt
Jon

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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: dill705]
#8131867 - 03/11/08 01:23 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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ok I looked at the manual better and it's 15. I must have seen that number somewhere else and just had a brain fart. That's nice to have cleared up.
also, widemouth QT jars are what I tried it with. With the rack in there, I can get 2 jars barely in, and one of them drags against the top of the cooker. Without the rack 3 will fit fine. If I put a rag in place and just took it up to speed very slowly, wouldn't this be acceptable?
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dill705
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8131871 - 03/11/08 01:25 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes sir.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.
-Icelander-
I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!
~dill705~
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Rose
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Re: a few questions about trying grain jars [Re: jonogt]
#8131887 - 03/11/08 01:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Should be fine. No guarantees... but most jars will survive that kind of treatment. Just don't be surprised if one breaks... but it only happens rarely.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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