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Invisiblezorbman
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More FBI privacy violations confirmed
    #8106020 - 03/05/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON -
The FBI improperly used national security letters in 2006 to obtain personal data on Americans during terror and spy investigations, Director Robert Mueller said Wednesday.

Mueller told the Senate Judiciary Committee that the privacy breach by FBI agents and lawyers occurred a year before the bureau enacted sweeping new reforms to prevent future lapses.

Details on the abuses will be outlined in the coming days in a report by the Justice Department's inspector general.

The report is a follow-up to an audit by the inspector general a year ago that found the FBI demanded personal data on people from banks, telephone and Internet providers and credit bureaus without official authorization and in non-emergency circumstances between 2003 and 2005.

Mueller, noting senators' concerns about Americans' civil and privacy rights, said the new report "will identify issues similar to those in the report issued last March." The similarities, he said, are because the time period of the two studies "predates the reforms we now have in place."

He added: "We are committed to ensuring that we not only get this right, but maintain the vital trust of the American people."

Mueller offered no additional details. Several other Justice Department and FBI officials familiar with this year's findings have said privately the upcoming report will show the letters were wrongly used at a similar rate as during the previous three years.

In contrast to the outrage by Congress and civil liberties groups after last year's report was issued, Mueller's disclosure drew no criticism from senators during just over two hours of testimony during Wednesday's hearing.

Speaking before the FBI chief, Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., urged Mueller to be more vigilant in correcting what he called "widespread illegal and improper use of national security letters."

"Everybody wants to stop terrorists. But we also, though, as Americans, we believe in our privacy rights and we want those protected," Leahy said. "There has to be a better chain of command for this. You cannot just have an FBI agent who decides he'd like to obtain Americans' records, bank records or anything else and do it just because they want to."

National security letters, as outlined in the USA Patriot Act, are administrative subpoenas used in suspected terrorism and espionage cases. They allow the FBI to require telephone companies, Internet service providers, banks, credit bureaus and other businesses to produce highly personal records about their customers or subscribers without a judge's approval.

The number of national security letters issued by the FBI skyrocketed in the years after the Patriot Act became law in 2001, according to last year's report by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine. His review is required by Congress, over the objections of the Bush administration.

Former FBI agent Michael German, now a national security adviser for the American Civil Liberties Union, said Mueller's admission that the bureau violated laws for the fourth year in a row underscores the need to have a judge sign off on the subpoenas.

"The credibility factor shows there needs to be outside oversight," German said after the hearing.

German also cast doubt on FBI reforms to prevent future abuses. "There were guidelines before, and there were laws before, and the FBI violated those laws," he said. "And the idea that new guidelines would make a difference, I think cuts against rationality."

Fine's earlier report, issued March 9, 2007, blamed agent error and shoddy record-keeping for the bulk of the problems and did not find any indication of criminal misconduct.

It uncovered thousands of examples of the FBI's failure to properly report the number of national security letters as required by law. The 2007 report also identified instances where agents did not get proper authorization or made otherwise improper requests for information from telephone companies and Internet service providers.

In 2005, for example, Fine's office found more than 1,000 violations within 19,000 FBI requests to obtain 47,000 records. Each letter issued may contain several requests. Justice Department and FBI auditors said last summer that many of the abuses were caused by companies that gave more information than the FBI sought.

The FBI and Justice Department have since enacted guidelines and sternly reminded FBI agents to carefully follow the rules governing the national security letters. They caution agents to review all data before it is transferred into FBI databases to make sure that only the information specifically requested is used.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/senate_fbi_7


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: zorbman]
    #8106582 - 03/05/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is nonsense, Phred told us that there was no spying on Americans.
Why can't you people just listen to Phred?
Hail Phred!
:bow:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: zorbman]
    #8110155 - 03/06/08 08:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

all in the name of homeland security...

I feel safer under the surveillance blanket.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: blackegg]
    #8110662 - 03/06/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
This is nonsense, Phred told us that there was no spying on Americans.
Why can't you people just listen to Phred?
Hail Phred!
:bow:




I presume he was talking about the NSA program?

Apparently the court's have allready agreed that there is no fourth amendment violation when spying on non-americans even if they're in america, as part of a foreign intelligence investigation.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: johnm214]
    #8111449 - 03/06/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The FBI improperly used national security letters in 2006 to obtain personal data on Americans...




--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: blackegg]
    #8112171 - 03/06/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes, I'm saying I presume Phred was talking about the NSA program, as their is no constitutional requirement for a warrant when the executive authorizes surveilance of foreigners in this country related to espionage or international crime.
r
I'm sure phred knows of national security letters, so I don't think he would argue they're not bing used.

Whatever, reelect hillary for more patriot acts :thumbup:


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: johnm214]
    #8113916 - 03/06/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Sigh. So much wrong here. Where to begin?


He Quoted Me ...Me:
I take it you don't see his 'spying on Americans' as alarming?



Phred:
No, since he isn't spying on Americans.




I assume he wasn't refering to Bush himself listening in through a White House phone or something...but whatever.
Hail Phred.
:bow:
Hail Johnm.
:bow:
Hail blackegg.
:bow:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: blackegg]
    #8113929 - 03/06/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Build an altar to fireworks_god or else. :evil:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: blackegg]
    #8113949 - 03/06/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
Quote:

Phred said:
Sigh. So much wrong here. Where to begin?


He Quoted Me ...Me:
I take it you don't see his 'spying on Americans' as alarming?



Phred:
No, since he isn't spying on Americans.




I assume he wasn't refering to Bush himself listening in through a White House phone or something...but whatever.
Hail Phred.
:bow:
Hail Johnm.
:bow:
Hail blackegg.
:bow:




well clearly he's wrong by that transcript, but I presume he was speaking about the NSA program

Clearly bush spies on many people through warrants and otherwise.  Hopefully the national security letters will be deemed unconstitutional, but who knows. 

You're right, I just don't think Phred is ignorant as to the President's activities in this area, and I think he was talking about the NSA program, which doesn't appear to be targeting americans in america.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: johnm214]
    #8114076 - 03/06/08 11:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

.................fireworks_god.................
:blackspy::bow::yinyang::bow::whitespy:

Johnm.
Quote:


Phred:
I'm with Seuss.

If I lived in the US, I'd definitely take four more years of Bush over either Clinton or Obama. That's not even a close decision. I'd take four more years of him over McCain, too. Again, not even a close decision.

With all his flaws (and he has no shortage of them) he's by far the best of the four.

Quote:


ME:
I think I've figured that out already.

This isn't a roll call.

I'm trying to figure out WHY ANYONE WOULD choose Bush again.

not IF ANYONE would.



That is what I was getting at with the following...

Quote:




I take it you don't see his 'spying on Americans' as alarming?
His praying about Forigein Affairs when he should've be reading about them disheartening?
The tax breaks for billionaires...
His accepting laws passed by Congress then altering them without giving congress the chance to respond.
etc etc.

(I'm generalizing here of course, please don't attack me on specifics....unless you really want to.
I always appreciate a good 'schooling'.)

But you don't see these things the same as I do?
Even the words I use to descibe these events aren't the same you would use, right?


Like you might say that he was protecting Americans.
...that he has the courage to state his faith even when it's not popular.
...that America is overburdened with taxes.
etc.



...or do you see Clinton as just THAT much worse?








Phred:
Sigh. So much wrong here. Where to begin?

Quote:




I take it you don't see his 'spying on Americans' as alarming?







No, since he isn't spying on Americans.

Quote:




His praying about Forigein Affairs when he should've be reading about them disheartening?







Nope. I'm an atheist, but I'm not stupid enough to believe Bush doesn't read about foreign affairs. If he also wants to say a few prayers that everything works out, that's fine with me. Can't hurt anything.








From:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=14&Number=8073182&page=1&fpart=2
Which I just bumped...

But yeah, obviously Phred can't be wrong about something simple like this.

He must've been saying something else.



Right?... Phred?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


Edited by blackegg (03/06/08 11:15 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: More FBI privacy violations confirmed [Re: blackegg]
    #8117523 - 03/07/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

But yeah, obviously Phred can't be wrong about something simple like this.

He must've been saying something else.



Right?... Phred?





I think Phred has his hands full in the Global Warming thread. :grin:

But yeah, I posted the article in counterpoint to those who claim there can never be any harm to governmental snooping in the name of national security. If you have nothing to hide there is no reason to worry, right? That is always the line we hear.

Trouble is they don't always confine their investigations to relevant matters.

History demonstrates these goons sooner or later turn their attention to domestic opposition of their latest war in support of corporate interests. They did it in the sixties, they'll do it today.

Where there is one story there are probably dozens we haven't heard about.

Just expose the anti-war leader who is having an extra-marital affair from phone conversations. Leak that news to the media and you have a disgraced opposition leader.

If we are truly fighting for freedom let us fight for freedom at home and abroad.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (03/07/08 08:39 PM)


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