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Offlinekristofer
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Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 230
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Re: when capital (or a lack thereof) holds you back.. [Re: phi1618]
    #8105847 - 03/05/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I don't think you understood my point about ripping people off. Think stock scams, think subprime mortgage securitization, think agriculture subsidies and prisons. These are all failures in our current system that could be addressed through proper (in some cases, less) regulation.





Yes those are all legal methods of exploitation. It's not like working class people have a choice really. We all have to get mortgages eventually, or continue to live on rental property.

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There is utility in specialization. Working class people don't generally have the time or inclination to identify trends and predict future needs, and will frequently have the interest to protect their lives from change even when it's not in "the people's" overall interest.





Time is time regardless of intellectual, skilled or physical superiority. Why couldn't the "specialized" person just be another working class citizen playing that particular role? Why does that role have to be more valuable?

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Generally, people make decisions - "the People" are not able to make decisions without some sort of social structure - rules, contracts, conventions, traditions - that enable them to cooperate.





Indeed, I propose a true democracy instead of a delegate system. I believe people should be personally responsible for their communities instead of paying taxes and letting government handle it for them.

Quote:


I won't argue about uneven distribution of wealth - it certainly exists, and is a problem. But the idea of having the "working class" make all decisions about how capital will flow - I don't even understand it as a coherent idea. Will companies have managers and CEOs? How will decisions actually be made - that is, how do you decide to expand a factory and buy a new machine from some other company, or when do you just fix the old one you already have and make do? What about credit and money - what are you proposing to do about that?





You underestimate people a lot here. Do you honestly believe working class people don't understand supply and demand? Yes there will be managers and CEO's, put in democratically by the workers. They'll want to manage money well because the overall wealth of the labor union would be at stake. The company is the communities vested interest because it will provide one part of the process to some other industry, or perhaps deliver the finished product to the consumer. Those decisions aren't complicated when they're broken down into their various parts. Capitalists call it micro management. The concept functions the same, just even the pay scale.

Why would the people borrow money? Ideally there are no capital interests for investors in this society and there would be nothing to borrow. If one particular factory needs a new machine to meet demand they call the people that make machines and ask for one.

The means of production already exists.. in theory, the entire country could still have it's high standard of living without currency at all if everyone just did what they do normally everyday.

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And what about freeloaders - if the fruits are evenly distributed, I might be a cynic but I think most people will take it easy.





You're already supporting freeloaders. It's called welfare. At least in a society without money they would be enabled to find a way to contribute.

Here's a wikipedia article about motivation, because that seems to be a major hang-up. It's certainly not inspired by money.

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Have you really thought this through - do you have anything to say that hasn't been suggested and tried in the past?





A scripture from Ecclesiastes should answer that, 1:9 - "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

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Look into the history of China - Mao was a great military leader but basically a pretty simple man in other ways, and screwed up so badly it cost millions of lives. China has only begun to recover some hint of it's former greatness now that market economies are encouraged, and social and individual incentives are beginning to be aligned.





First of all, money and the usury behind it is more of an unfortunate side effect to capitalism than it is an incentive. It's a way for the wealthy and poor to remain in their respective roles for generations.

Secondly, capitalism is necessary to establish a solid means of production. Marx addressed that in his writings quite frequently. I don't know much about Mao's revolution or why it concerns this thread. But it's time to move on. Capitalism is holding back production. It's also known as recession. It's going to get worse.

Quote:


Fairness is an innate human feeling, but shit - you're not cold or hungry, are you?





Do I have to be cold and hungry to care?


--------------------
dewbie dewbie dew


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