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InvisibleZippoZM
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the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 planes
    #8104347 - 03/05/08 01:01 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Really

i mean, im sure that it would be hard to get the cash for it, but...

why dont we just re-build the fucking things, and then crash 2 more planes into the fucking buildings

actually lets rebuild that whole corporate complex, so we can see if building 7 still collapses.....


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."

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Offlinesam420
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8104375 - 03/05/08 01:08 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

:foshizzle:


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:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8104387 - 03/05/08 01:10 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

That wouldnt settle shit. Planes already crashed into two towers damaging and destroying three buildings. Tons of evidence has already been collected and examined by lots of different people.

People who believe in conspiracy theory BS will believe it no matter what. They are true believers. Absolutely nothing will convince them otherwise, because to do so is to admit they are not part of a special elite that knows what is really going on. To admit they dont know about any conspiracy would be to admit they are the same as all the shoppers, drivers, and people they interact with on a daily basis. To some, self delusion is preferable as it keeps up the illusion of self importance.

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OfflineKada
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 planes [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8104398 - 03/05/08 01:12 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

It would because the government would make it again.


--------------------
~The Cultivators Motherload~

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein

"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama

Live long and prosper.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Kada]
    #8104444 - 03/05/08 01:22 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

rudy giliana is repsonsible for WTC7
he put a huge propane tank on the top floor disregarding wut every1 else said
research it


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Offlinesam420
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: DieCommie]
    #8104504 - 03/05/08 01:42 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

WHAT R U STUPID OR SOMTHING I SAW A YOUTUBE VIDIO OF 9/11 AND IT CLEERLY SHOWS TAHT TEH GOVURNMENT PLANTED BOMS ON TEH TOWER!!!!! ITS SO FUCKING OBVIUS!!!1  U R GAY!!!

:wink:


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:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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Offline5150
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8106205 - 03/05/08 01:46 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

anyone who thinks some jackass,s with box cutters brought down 3 multi storied buildings that were designed to be hit by jets is a moron


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"the way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death"

Miyamoto Musashi

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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 planes [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8106226 - 03/05/08 01:54 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

so we can see if building 7 still collapses.....




Its hard enough to explain two towers, that were originally designed to withstand a plane crash, collapsing.  Let alone how a building that hasn't even been hit collapses too (building 7).

Then theres the molten steel and the right angel cut steels.

Until someone addresses these basic facts, I have to say it looks to me like theres a definite conspiracy.:krang:

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: 5150]
    #8106229 - 03/05/08 01:55 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

CN you seem a bit obsessed with the 9/11.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: DieCommie]
    #8106262 - 03/05/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
That wouldnt settle shit.  Planes already crashed into two towers damaging and destroying three buildings.  Tons of evidence has already been collected and examined by lots of different people.

People who believe in conspiracy theory BS will believe it no matter what.  They are true believers.  Absolutely nothing will convince them otherwise, because to do so is to admit they are not part of a special elite that knows what is really going on.  To admit they dont know about any conspiracy would be to admit they are the same as all the shoppers, drivers, and people they interact with on a daily basis.  To some, self delusion is preferable as it keeps up the illusion of self importance.




:thumbup:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8106281 - 03/05/08 02:06 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Its hard enough to explain two towers, that were originally designed to withstand a plane crash, collapsing. Let alone how a building that hasn't even been hit collapses too (building 7).

Then theres the molten steel and the right angel cut steels.

Until someone addresses these basic facts, I have to say it looks to me like theres a definite conspiracy




:yesnod:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8106394 - 03/05/08 02:32 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yeah right, this wouldn't solve anything.

There will ALWAYS be people who are convinced there are strings being pulled behind the scenes and that EVERYTHING is a conspiracy.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8106519 - 03/05/08 03:03 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Its hard enough to explain two towers, that were originally designed to withstand a plane crash, collapsing. Let alone how a building that hasn't even been hit collapses too (building 7).

Then theres the molten steel and the right angel cut steels.

Until someone addresses these basic facts, I have to say it looks to me like theres a definite conspiracy




:yesnod:




:thumbup: Its not buying into a conspiracy theory, its common sense if you look at the evidence and I'm not just talking about god damn YouTube videos and Zeitgeist which has false informtion in the beginning of the video.. If you honestly investigate it you will come to the answers pretty quickly instead of thinking you know everything and have no problem name calling honest people like me saying I am a nutjob who will believe 'conspiracy theories until the end no matter what.' You are talking out of your ass and don't know shit about 9/11.  It has nothing to do with that. Its more along the lines of logic.

If you guys are soooo smart answer 3 or 4 basic questions about 9/11 since you seem to know all the answers

1)Building 7 Fell and and wasn't even hit by a god damn air plane.

2)Explain molten steel found in both WTC 1,2, 7 up to 5 weeks after the event it is said that steel melts at 2000 degrees and is liquid at much higher temperatures, fire has never melted steal especially Jet Fuel which burns at 900 degrees lower than the melting point of steel. And they just happened to find thermite something used in explosives in all 3 buildings. Let me tell you something 14 story buildings just don't fall at free fall speed

3)The 9/11 Commision Report which the White House has recently said was a hand picked group of people instead of a group of people of data gathering intellectuals failed to mention WTC 7 building in the 9/11 Commission Report ( A Report about buildings falling because of terrorits forgot to mention 1 of the 3 buildings falling? How does that slip? give me a fucking break )


4) Explain the obvious squibs, a term used in demoltion, look it up.

But you guys are smart and know everything and thats why I am a nutjob right? Tickle the truth into submission. hit me with your best shot

Edited by Rebirtha (03/05/08 03:17 PM)

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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #8106555 - 03/05/08 03:12 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Yeah right, this wouldn't solve anything.

There will ALWAYS be idiots



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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106588 - 03/05/08 03:21 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Evan said:

But you guys are smart and know everything and thats why I am a nutjob right? Tickle the truth into submission. hit me with your best shot




Every fucking thing you've said has been refuted multiple times in multiple threads on this very site.

Do a search, I highly doubt anyone here wants to go over this for the 10,000-th time.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106593 - 03/05/08 03:22 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

no it's not. you think it's illogical based on what? your assumptions of what is realistic. this topic has been discussed to death, and the truth of the matter is that for every one 'scientist' (or more often than not 'alex grey type nutjob') who puts forth a bunch of 'scientific evidence' that it must have been a controlled blast etc etc, there are five more scientists who say that the official story was scientifically possible, and that it did in fact happen.

what it comes down to is whether of not you choose to believe the majority of the scientific world, or whether or not you choose to believe that "they're all in on it" and they're all lying because the government forced them to. :rolleyes:

if you really use logic you'll find that all the conspiracy theory bullshit is pretty fucking ridiculous over all.

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OfflineAndhesEcuador
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #8106611 - 03/05/08 03:30 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

We can't be 100% certain of anything...

BUT

I wouldn't put it past the government. Look at our involvement around the world covert ops shit, rigging elections, assassinations etc

Land of the free! :rofl:


--------------------
NO EGO WBS TEK

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8106632 - 03/05/08 03:35 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I know I've been told to use the Search Engine I've used it multiple times and gone through most of the threads, none of them answered these questions. Suprise suprise. Did you see the answer in these threads or are you just saying what everybody says when they see a 911 thread?

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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106649 - 03/05/08 03:37 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

all the threads about this crap are in the political forum. all of your questions are asked, discussed, and debunked within. it's about a thousand pages of this bullshit. enjoy the read.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106665 - 03/05/08 03:41 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Evan said:
I know I've been told to use the Search Engine I've used it multiple times and gone through most of the threads, none of them answered these questions. Suprise suprise.




Thats because they cant be answered!


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #8106680 - 03/05/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yeah I've read alot of them and participated in them so don't tell me to UTFSE. Have you read them? I'm not very convinced at all, but you are for some reason. Still doesn't answer these questions. You can't debate certain questions like why the 9/11 Commission Report failed to include 1 the 3 buildings falling in their report about buildings falling, and it just happened to be the building that didn't get hit by a plane. How you gonna debate that? Seriously that is a big deal but is nothing to you. please

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Offlinesam420
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106688 - 03/05/08 03:47 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Searching a drugs forum.  That's your research? :lol:

I would advise starting with Google.. but I heard Google is run by Lizardmen.  You'd better search more drug forums for Lizardmen conspiracy theories before divulging your intents to Google...


--------------------
:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: sam420]
    #8106694 - 03/05/08 03:48 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I'm searching a drugs forum because he told me to dumbass, you know they guy on your side of the arguement? and of course I've done research outside of a drug forums. And we aren't talking about lizard men for christs sake.

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: sam420]
    #8106699 - 03/05/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I'm searching a drugs forum because he told me to dumbass, you know the guy on your side of the arguement? and of course I've done research outside of a drug forums. And we aren't talking about lizard men for christs sake.

ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T THINK IT IS A HUGE DEAL THAT WORLD TRADE CENTER 7 FELL WITHOUT BEING HIT BY A PLANE AND WASN'T EVEN MENTIONED ONCE IN THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORTS IS A FUCKING NUTJOB WHO SHOULD HANG OUT WITHT HE LIZARDMEN.

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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106700 - 03/05/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

have you ever read the 9/11 commission report, or did alex grey just claim it wasn't included in the report?

something tells me you just hear these things from various (totally unbiased of course) sources and automatically take it for fact because you want to believe there was a conspiracy.

i'm not getting into this whole debate again, i'm sorry. i have better things to do on my birthday.

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Offlinesam420
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106703 - 03/05/08 03:51 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Easy now.

My side of the argument doesn't exist because:

a) This topic has been regurgitated about 1000000 times already (please refer to 'similar threads' at bottom of page)
b) I could care less if your government DID bring down the towers.

I'm just expressing displeasure at the fact these threads just won't die. Maybe we should have a dedicated forum


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:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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OfflineChemy
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla *DELETED* [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106704 - 03/05/08 03:51 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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OfflineChemy
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla *DELETED* [Re: Chemy]
    #8106710 - 03/05/08 03:52 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Offlinesam420
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Chemy]
    #8106715 - 03/05/08 03:53 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Happy Birthday JonnyOnTheSpot




--------------------
:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #8106719 - 03/05/08 03:53 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yes I have read the 9/11 Commission Report. You can download it full version .pdf right here:


http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report.pdf

Have you read it, or have you just been following peoples replies in saying

"use the search engine"
"this has been proved many many times"
"go hang out with lizard men"

by the way, I don't want to ruin your birthday go have some fun


All of you nay sayers are so quick to criticize and name call but you haven't done any research yourself which just make you IGNORANT NAME CALLERS repeating things like:

"use the search engine"
"this has been proved many many times"
"go hang out with lizard men"

without ever proving anything.

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Chemy]
    #8106724 - 03/05/08 03:55 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Dont get angry over a 7 year old incident.

How long must we wait before we can stop caring about 9/11?




Do you realize what the implications are if the government planned 9/11? It means it is far from a past event.

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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106726 - 03/05/08 03:56 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

thanks for the birthday wishes everyone.

evan, i ain't calling you names, but i am a naysayer!

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106735 - 03/05/08 03:57 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Evan said:
All of you nay sayers are so quick to criticize and name call but you haven't done any research yourself which just make you ignorant name callers.




I haven't done any research because I couldn't overcome the mountain of apathy oozing from my soul


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106749 - 03/05/08 04:00 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Evan said:
Do you realize what the implications are if the government planned 9/11? It means it is far from a past event.




Yeah it means you have a shitty government. This is already a well understood concept.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: sam420]
    #8106761 - 03/05/08 04:03 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yeah and you have the right not to be controlled by your government, especially when the american public wake up and people are held accountable. Fine let it happen, who cares if the government is corrupt anyway and kills its own citizens and takes away Rights for that cause. Yeah who cares, the government is bad anyways right? Let them set up torture camps and deploy their unnaccountable parallel army for domestic problems. Lets spend trillions of dollars and make the top people richer. Who cares right? I mean who has time to care with all this bong smoking and tv watching. Enjoy your bong and don't forget to not protectd your constitution.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8106774 - 03/05/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Evan said:
Go smoke a bong.




Thanks I will.

Enjoy your thread


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Coaster]
    #8106780 - 03/05/08 04:07 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
rudy giliana is repsonsible for WTC7
he put a huge propane tank on the top floor disregarding wut every1 else said
research it




propane tank on the roof wouldnt make it collapse from the foundation UP. it would have blown a hole in the roof.


i dont care what anyone says, there is no way that simple fires on two separate floors caused building 7 to drop like a pile of twigs. it was a goddamn steel framed structure, with larger steel beams than even the trade towers, due to the fact that it sat on top of an electrical substation.

you tell me how fire dropped the entire structure in a matter of seconds from the ground floor UP, in the same fashion as a demolition. this isnt aimed at anyone in particular, just ranting to everyone.

im not saying the government did it, but i am saying that if it was middle eastern terrorists who crashed those planes, then they werent acting alone. i dont know who or why, but i know deep down that the official story we were spoon fed was full of lies.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8106795 - 03/05/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Paying no mind to the multitudes of structural engineers who say that is what happened?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8106803 - 03/05/08 04:12 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

and the many engineers who disagree with those engineers?

http://www.ae911truth.org/


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8106816 - 03/05/08 04:15 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Especially considering the engineers and project managers who built the towers themselves think the government is lying?

This is a building being taken down through demoltion and it is World Trade Center building 7, the one not mentioned at all in the 9/11 commission report, because it is a dead giveaway.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8108627 - 03/05/08 09:42 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Evan said:
Yeah I've read alot of them and participated in them so don't tell me to UTFSE. Have you read them? I'm not very convinced at all, but you are for some reason. Still doesn't answer these questions. You can't debate certain questions like why the 9/11 Commission Report failed  to include 1 the 3 buildings falling in their report about buildings falling, and it just happened to be the building that didn't get hit by a plane. How you gonna debate that? Seriously that is a big deal but is nothing to you. please 




You do know that the NIST is working on a complete report due out later this year about their findings into why 7 WTC collapsed, right?

During the original commission report they couldn't conclusively identify the cause for the collapse with enough certainty, so they are doing a complete study on it.

But fuck them right, you probably won't bother to even listen to what "the man" says about it. :rolleyes: You've apparently already made up your mind about what has happened, despite the contradictory evidence.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8108826 - 03/05/08 10:23 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

If government was directly involved in the WTC attacks, then there will have to be some serious reconsidering by the public in regards to the way of life the people buy and the political system they vote for.

If the attacks were orchestrated by rogues from the Middle East, then we must question our foreign policy and consider how pre-911 and post-911 military presence in the Middle East has been cultivating this kind of hostility against us.

In either scenario, there is a responsibility to inspect ourselves and to re-evaluate the global sustainability of the "American way." I say it will not hold much longer if we continue to stay on this aggressive course.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8109497 - 03/06/08 01:46 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T THINK IT IS A HUGE DEAL THAT WORLD TRADE CENTER 7 FELL WITHOUT BEING HIT BY A PLANE AND WASN'T EVEN MENTIONED ONCE IN THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORTS IS A FUCKING NUTJOB WHO SHOULD HANG OUT WITHT HE LIZARDMEN.




These days this is the most tired misnomer in the true believers' jumblebag. No, it wasn't hit by a plane...but it was hit by huge chunks of concrete and steel falling on it, doesn't that count?

Captain Chris Boyle
Engine 94 - 18 years


Boyle: ...on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

www.911myths.com/assets/images/WTC7Corner.jpg

The building was heavily damaged, but you apparently didn't know that otherwise you wouldn't have been so cocksure and loud about it.

Maybe analysis of evidence isn't for you. Perhaps try some critical thinking: If your assertion is that WTC7 was brought down in controlled demolition, would purpose did the controlled demo serve? Was it to destroy evidence? Think that one through for a second and you see how stupid it is. If there was something damning in the building, it could have been burned, or deleted, or moved or removed in advance (like you probably believe the explosive charges in the towers were placed by a black ops team).

What functional purpose could taking down WTC7 with controlled demolition possibly serve for the perpetrators? Oh, lemme guess, it was Larry Silverstein's insurance policy right?

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Viveka]
    #8109554 - 03/06/08 02:22 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Those who blatantly disregard the possibility of corporate or government (the line between them seems to be blurring more and more) involvement in this overplayed incident are as blind as the people who so passionately protest that it is indeed a conspiracy.

The only people that know the truth of this matter are those smart enough to know how to keep their mouths shut.

Chances are that it's something that has become so complex over the years that we wouldn't understand it even if it was all laid out for us to see.


--------------------

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:mushroomgrow:Know Thyself.:mushroomgrow:

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8109556 - 03/06/08 02:23 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Why does it have to be so complex?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8109564 - 03/06/08 02:25 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

It was more a figure of speech than literal.


--------------------

Hemp could Save the World.

"There is no flag that is large enough, to hide the shame of a man in cuffs." -Serj Tankian


:mushroomgrow:Know Thyself.:mushroomgrow:

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8109598 - 03/06/08 02:42 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

the government has a tendency to hide things from people, and yes lie about alot of shit, and because of this fact people think the government is IN ON EVERYTHING AND OUT TO GET US. let me guess...the moon landing was fake too, right?


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8109634 - 03/06/08 03:06 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

If you're looking for something to implicate the U.S. government in the events of 9/11, you need look no further than the past half a century of middle east foreign policy. That's the whole point. But it's not as fun as fantastic theories requiring Illuminati henchman and fake planes and stuff.

Quote:

Chances are that it's something that has become so complex over the years that we wouldn't understand it even if it was all laid out for us to see.




It's called history. With a little time and research you too may come to understand it.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Viveka]
    #8109844 - 03/06/08 05:30 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

i think its pretty clear from the evidence, that everything in our society is a conspiracy.

I am not joking or being sarcastic towards the WTC conspiracy movement.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8110066 - 03/06/08 07:56 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

pearl harbour was a conspiracy, the government knew it was going to happen but they wanted an excuse to fuck with japan so they could test their bomb on them.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #8110111 - 03/06/08 08:33 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

There is a member of the Japanese Democratic party, Yukihisa Fujita, that has recently questioned the 'offical' story of 9/11 in Parliament. In his statement he refers to, among other things, building 7. I really hope that it turns into something bigger. Japanese citizens were killed in the 9/11 'event' so potentially they may be able to arrest Bush.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Viveka]
    #8110335 - 03/06/08 10:05 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

It's called history. With a little time and research you too may come to understand it.




History books are written by the winners. I thought everybody knew that by now? Also, to stand against my statement and imply that history is not complex and full of intricacies that we'll never know were part of the picture is a very, well, stupid statement. Sorry to be blunt and condescending, but your comment was of the same nature so I feel it's appropriate.

You are mistaken, and pompous, in thinking that you have history figured out my friend. Sorry.


--------------------

Hemp could Save the World.

"There is no flag that is large enough, to hide the shame of a man in cuffs." -Serj Tankian


:mushroomgrow:Know Thyself.:mushroomgrow:

"If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on."
-Terence Mckenna

Edited by manyc (03/06/08 10:53 AM)

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8110396 - 03/06/08 10:32 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Its so convenient.

Now we can make the public hate Arabs while we rape them for their black gold, yay!

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8110522 - 03/06/08 11:16 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Yes, because the price of oil has fallen dramatically since 9/11.

:flowstone:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8110587 - 03/06/08 11:29 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

:blah:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8110679 - 03/06/08 11:53 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Humble lurker said:
Its so convenient.

Now we can make the public hate Arabs while we rape them for their black gold, yay!




what the hell are you talking about? this has nothing to do with oil. gas prices have doubled since 9/11 so what your saying makes no sense. not to mention that 80% of our oil comes from canada/alaska/south america


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OfflineWakeboardrB
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WScott]
    #8110698 - 03/06/08 11:56 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
There is a member of the Japanese Democratic party, Yukihisa Fujita, that has recently questioned the 'offical' story of 9/11 in Parliament. In his statement he refers to, among other things, building 7. I really hope that it turns into something bigger. Japanese citizens were killed in the 9/11 'event' so potentially they may be able to arrest Bush.




I don't care if the fucking Pope calls it into question. They aren't structural engineers, were not anywhere near ground zero during or after the incident, and probably have about as much "evidence" as the average American teenager watching grainy videos of squibb charges and freefalls without any context or actual experience to back it up.


--------------------
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8110742 - 03/06/08 12:10 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

exactly....acccording to all of you people there are THOUSANDS of people "in on it"...you seriously think that all of those scientists not one of them would come through and say that they were asked by the government to lie? 9/11 was a terrible tradgedy, why the fuck would they do it on purpose


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #8110770 - 03/06/08 12:16 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

9/11 was a terrible tradgedy, why the fuck would they do it on purpose




It is called The Patriot Act, and it will slowly take away all your rights.


--------------------
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8110796 - 03/06/08 12:23 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

*is


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8110810 - 03/06/08 12:26 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

:confused:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8110820 - 03/06/08 12:29 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

is. it already is in the process of taking away all of our rights.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8110826 - 03/06/08 12:31 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

true


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8110834 - 03/06/08 12:32 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

That, IMO, is the whole reason 9-11 happened.


--------------------
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Invisiblemanyc
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8110835 - 03/06/08 12:32 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

There are many motives as to why the government or a corporation would do such a thing. An act of terrorism injects the thought into the citizens' minds that there is a definite enemy. It injects fear into their lives. Fear controls people. That is what terrorism is about - control. Control is what the government wants. It's what the government does - governs. This is the fundamental mistake in trying to maintain a government at all - the notion that you can maintain control.

It gave them a reason to start a war. A war that really has been going on for longer than most realize.

It's fucking petty, and it's petty to try and argue about who did it. It was done, and there's obviously loose ends that they refuse to address to the public. Something isn't right, that much is obvious.

Those with the right eyes can see through the gaping hole they foolishly left.


--------------------

Hemp could Save the World.

"There is no flag that is large enough, to hide the shame of a man in cuffs." -Serj Tankian


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Edited by manyc (03/06/08 12:35 PM)

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8110845 - 03/06/08 12:34 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

It was done, and there's obviously loose ends that they refuse to address. Something isn't right, that much is obvious. Those with the right eyes can see through the gaping hole they foolishly left.




So true.
So true.


--------------------
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Don't be bogged down by your past
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8110855 - 03/06/08 12:36 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

fuck this shit im moving to australia


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                                                                  thats right cubes in december bitches

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #8110878 - 03/06/08 12:41 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

I'm moving to the EU soon. I'm sick to the stomach of the lifestyles that the American culture feverishly promotes.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8110881 - 03/06/08 12:42 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Why does it have to be so complex?




Because if it wasn't, it would completely invalidate all of those self proclaimed "truth seekers" and all of their armchair enlightenment.

It would be a huge blow to their ego to even entertain the idea that a well organized group of radical Islamics could possibly hijack a few planes and plow them into targets.

Quote:

There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet a basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. "We tend to associate major events--a President or princess dying--with major causes," says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. "If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us." In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting.




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304-3,00.html


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 planes [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8110898 - 03/06/08 12:47 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Capatalistc nomad said:
Really

i mean, im sure that it would be hard to get the cash for it, but...

why dont we just re-build the fucking things, and then crash 2 more planes into the fucking buildings

actually lets rebuild that whole corporate complex, so we can see if building 7 still collapses.....




Kudos for "thinking outside the box"

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8110964 - 03/06/08 01:06 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

WakeboardrB said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Why does it have to be so complex?




Because if it wasn't, it would completely invalidate all of those self proclaimed "truth seekers" and all of their armchair enlightenment.

It would be a huge blow to their ego to even entertain the idea that a well organized group of radical Islamics could possibly hijack a few planes and plow them into targets.




Absolutely. Why people dismiss this cause, the one that is admitted to by the parties who did it, that all eyewitness accounts support, and that the vast preponderance of the evidence points to; why people dismiss this as completely not even possible will forever be a mystery to me.

Why do you people want SO BADLY to believe in a vast conspiracy involving literally hundreds of thousands of people?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8110981 - 03/06/08 01:12 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Why do you want so badly to stop the discussion?

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Stizzle]
    #8111001 - 03/06/08 01:20 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

because this discussion is filled with ignorant people who claim that a conspiracy is the only possibility because thats what they want to believe, rather then doing real research and learning actual FACTS, they base their entire logic of "conspiracy theories" that they here from people or read in a bullshit article. americans are so fucking stupid i cant wait to leave this country


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8111019 - 03/06/08 01:28 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

WakeboardrB said:I don't care if the fucking Pope calls it into question. They aren't structural engineers, were not anywhere near ground zero during or after the incident, and probably have about as much "evidence" as the average American teenager watching grainy videos of squibb charges and freefalls without any context or actual experience to back it up.




No, he isn't a structural engineer.. but why should that matter to you? There are already plenty of engineers that support the idea of a demolition that you conveniently seem to be blissfully unaware so what does a job title matter?

Quote:

Why do you people want SO BADLY to believe in a vast conspiracy involving literally hundreds of thousands of people?




I don't.

I wish I could believe that it really was a bunch of people with boxcutters, but I've looked at the evidence; a critical perspective on the whole event and the 'explanation' of it is what I got. Turning a blind eye to it, in foresight, will be regrettable. Even if it is just a few posts on a message board..


--------------------

Edited by WScott (03/06/08 01:34 PM)

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OfflineWakeboardrB
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8111031 - 03/06/08 01:32 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

WakeboardrB said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Why does it have to be so complex?




Because if it wasn't, it would completely invalidate all of those self proclaimed "truth seekers" and all of their armchair enlightenment.

It would be a huge blow to their ego to even entertain the idea that a well organized group of radical Islamics could possibly hijack a few planes and plow them into targets.





Why do you people want SO BADLY to believe in a vast conspiracy involving literally hundreds of thousands of people?




It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside when they think they are going against the establishment and finding the actual "truth", when in reality they are just buying into all the nutjobs that shove their poorly explained theories down the throats of the gullible.

I don't believe the "official report" because it's backed by the government. I believe it because it's backed by actual solid science and logical reasoning by some of the brightest and most well known researchers in the field.


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Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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OfflineWakeboardrB
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WScott]
    #8111035 - 03/06/08 01:34 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Quote:

WakeboardrB said:I don't care if the fucking Pope calls it into question. They aren't structural engineers, were not anywhere near ground zero during or after the incident, and probably have about as much "evidence" as the average American teenager watching grainy videos of squibb charges and freefalls without any context or actual experience to back it up.




No, he isn't a structural engineer.. but why should that matter to you? There are already plenty of engineers that support the idea of a demolition that you conveniently seem to be blissfully unaware so what does a job title matter?




Name one investigator that was actually there at ground zero to see first hand what happened that still believes in thermite and controlled demolitions.


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8111092 - 03/06/08 01:50 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

exactly. a few scientists said a demolition POSSIBLE (not definite, not a single person said it was definite, but only POSSIBLE), anyways for every 1 engineer saying it was possible, there were 10 more saying that the crash was what caused it to fall. like i said anyone on here believing in conspiracies is not basing anything on actual evidence, just hearsay from what they hear from other dumbasses, or read on the internet, or whatever. get out there and do some actual research before you go making such rediculous claims


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #8111115 - 03/06/08 01:55 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

YES! While I have never been to the collapse site or the pentagon and I certainly know nothing about structural engineering, physics, or explosives... I do know enough to take stock in professional opinions of the people that actually were there and studied and researched and wrote hundreds and hundreds of papers based on factual and logical information that they themselves gathered and analyzed.

And I sure as hell do my best to take the photos and information in the right context with the real facts behind them.

It isn't that hard. You just have to pay attention.


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8111188 - 03/06/08 02:12 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Yes, It has nothing to do with oil, I am a robot, I am a robot

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm

:slaves:

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8111550 - 03/06/08 03:21 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

WakeboardrB said:
Quote:

Evan said:
Yeah I've read alot of them and participated in them so don't tell me to UTFSE. Have you read them? I'm not very convinced at all, but you are for some reason. Still doesn't answer these questions. You can't debate certain questions like why the 9/11 Commission Report failed  to include 1 the 3 buildings falling in their report about buildings falling, and it just happened to be the building that didn't get hit by a plane. How you gonna debate that? Seriously that is a big deal but is nothing to you. please 




You do know that the NIST is working on a complete report due out later this year about their findings into why 7 WTC collapsed, right?

During the original commission report they couldn't conclusively identify the cause for the collapse with enough certainty, so they are doing a complete study on it.

But fuck them right, you probably won't bother to even listen to what "the man" says about it. :rolleyes: You've apparently already made up your mind about what has happened, despite the contradictory evidence.




a study done nearly 7 years after the attack, and 6 years after the rubble and all evidence has been cleared and dispersed? im sure itll be chock full of useful information.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8111595 - 03/06/08 03:30 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

a study done nearly 7 years after the attack, and 6 years after the rubble and all evidence has been cleared and dispersed? im sure itll be chock full of useful information.




right.

Another report full of BULLSHIT for the American public to gobble up as they watch Fox news and eat burgers.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8111731 - 03/06/08 03:58 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

honestly, for the most part, ive just given up. i used to have alot of fire in my heart about this subject, but after so many years of arguing and feeling like im getting nowhere, i pretty much just leave it alone until someone brings it up, such as nomad.

too many drones to fight. im tired of fighting. every now and then ill get a spark back and get into it, but i quickly lose my luster for it.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8111751 - 03/06/08 04:02 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

I feel the same way. After arguing about it for years, I just don't understand how anyone can believe in a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people putting thousands of bombs in the biggest office building in the world while tens of thousands of people worked there every single day.

That fact alone beggars belief, and it is one of many that are equally as implausible.

But I've come the conclusion there is just a certain segment of the population that you will never be able to convince no matter how much evidence you have. Some people just do not want to believe they might be wrong about something.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8111826 - 03/06/08 04:20 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

well i definately believe something happened outside of what we were told. there were other people involved. for what reasons and motives, i have no idea. but i do know that the official story has some serious holes in it, that have never been answered and some that were answered ridiculously.

what you need to understand madtown, is that not all of us who believe there is another side to the event, believe the same thing, it is unfortunate that some people have thrown some completely ridiculous theories into the mix, because it takes the seriousness out of the whole argument, because then people like you(again no offense) have amunition for future arguments. and the minute someone says what we were told about 9/11 is full of lies, you automatically jump to the ridiculous conspiracy theory statement.


there are still several undeniable facts about 9/11 that are seriously disturbing. such as building 7 and everything surrounding it, the fact that it was not deemed a national disaster crimescene and kept the way it was for a thorough investigation, instead being cleaned up quickly, methodically and having any useable scraps such as the steel shipped off to other countries to be recycled(at incredibly cheap prices).

as said before, i dont know exactly what or why, but i know there are too many little facts and holes in the story for me to believe what the government said happened. :shrug:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8112968 - 03/06/08 07:51 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

a study done nearly 7 years after the attack, and 6 years after the rubble and all evidence has been cleared and dispersed? im sure itll be chock full of useful information.




right.

Another report full of BULLSHIT for the American public to gobble up as they watch Fox news and eat burgers.




Please tell me you don't just jump on the retard bandwagon so easily... :rolleyes:


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8112973 - 03/06/08 07:53 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

I have NEVER believed the cover story for 9-11


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8113124 - 03/06/08 08:20 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

the only real way to settle the 9/11 conspiracy is to just not give a fuck. planes clearly hit the buildings and they fell. there probably is a lot more important details missing but thank the lord i'm not concerned with them.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: zSDMF]
    #8113148 - 03/06/08 08:25 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Just because lots of bullshit surrounds 9/11 doesn't mean the government caused it.

You conspiracy theorists need to break free from the confines of your own minds.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: zSDMF]
    #8113255 - 03/06/08 08:51 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

zSDMF said:
the only real way to settle the 9/11 conspiracy is to just not give a fuck.  planes clearly hit the buildings and they fell.  there probably is a lot more important details missing but thank the lord i'm not concerned with them.




that makes alot of sense. lets not give a fuck about anything. lets just believe everything the government tells us like good little cattle.

guess you had better stop using any and all drugs, as a matter of fact you shouldnt break the law in any way they see fit. :rolleyes:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8113265 - 03/06/08 08:53 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

that means no speeding too.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8113271 - 03/06/08 08:54 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Don't tell me that you believe in the 9/11 conspiracy crap, lefty. It's fucking idiotic. I don't trust the government, but it's pretty clear that some pissed off Muslims flew planes into the World Trade Centers. I feel like the people who believe in this conspiracy only do so because they always conform to opinions and ideas that are unconventional. Conforming to nonconformity, if you will. There may be some details that we are unaware of, but I believe in the story we have been told, for the most part. Not everything is a conspiracy.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8113276 - 03/06/08 08:55 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
Quote:

zSDMF said:
the only real way to settle the 9/11 conspiracy is to just not give a fuck.  planes clearly hit the buildings and they fell.  there probably is a lot more important details missing but thank the lord i'm not concerned with them.




that makes alot of sense. lets not give a fuck about anything. lets just believe everything the government tells us like good little cattle.

guess you had better stop using any and all drugs, as a matter of fact you shouldnt break the law in any way they see fit. :rolleyes:




we can SEE the planes flying into the buildings.  Then the buildings fall down.  That much we knwo.  If you're going to believe EVERY form of information we receive is BS go ahead, but if that's the case then you certainly don't have any information with which to combat our sheepish notions.

The rabbit hole isn't nearly as deep as you think.  The truth is more terrifying: nobody knows what the fuck is going on.


--------------------
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Edited by g00ru (03/06/08 08:56 PM)

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8113283 - 03/06/08 08:57 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Just because lots of bullshit surrounds 9/11 doesn't mean the government caused it.

You conspiracy theorists need to break free from the confines of your own minds.




not all of us think the government did it.

i for one do not think george bush had anything to do with it. what i do believe that it is a possibility and a probability that some elements within the government had something to do with it, and at the very least helped it happen.

some elements within our government had to have either stood by idly while it happened, or wanted it to happen for whatever reasons, for the historically monumental blunders that happened, to happen.

either it was helped by people within this government and country, or the "greatest nation on earth" is run by a bunch of fucking idiots. i seriously doubt that THAT many people in THAT many branches of the government are THAT retarded.

Quote:

You conspiracy theorists need to break free from the confines of your own minds.




why do you find it so hard to step out of the confine of your own mind and accept the possibility that not every american is good, and that many of them work for their own benefit? why is it so hard for you to accept the possibility that people within our own government would have no problem allowing its own people to die for whatever reason? i have stepped out of the box long ago, where are you?


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: robbyberto]
    #8113359 - 03/06/08 09:10 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

robbyberto said:
Don't tell me that you believe in the 9/11 conspiracy crap, lefty. It's fucking idiotic. I don't trust the government, but it's pretty clear that some pissed off Muslims flew planes into the World Trade Centers. I feel like the people who believe in this conspiracy only do so because they always conform to opinions and ideas that are unconventional. Conforming to nonconformity, if you will. There may be some details that we are unaware of, but I believe in the story we have been told, for the most part. Not everything is a conspiracy.




i dont buy all of it no. am i a alex jones fanatic?? NO.

ive done my research, ive looked into it numerous times and every time i look at it i come to the same conclusion, something isnt right. there are discrepencies, there are holes and there are lies. something else happened, and that i am certain.

i am the same lefty everyone has seen for 3 years now, some of you dont like me, some of you do, if this opinion changes the way some of you feel about me then i really dont care, im the same person.

im not the only person who thinks theres another side to the story robby. there are people from all facets of american life who believe its a lie. not all of us believe the crazy shit.

http://stj911.org/
http://911scholars.org/
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
http://www.ae911truth.org/
http://www.ny911truth.org/
http://www.v911t.org/


it may not come out today, it may not come out tomorrow, but it will come out one day. and even then there are many americans who just wont accept it.

noone wanted to believe that a german was the one who burnt down the reichstag building.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8113363 - 03/06/08 09:11 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
not all of us think the government did it.

i for one do not think george bush had anything to do with it. what i do believe that it is a possibility and a probability that some elements within the government had something to do with it, and at the very least helped it happen.

some elements within our government had to have either stood by idly while it happened, or wanted it to happen for whatever reasons, for the historically monumental blunders that happened, to happen.




I don't think anybody would argue there were some serious fuck ups in preventing this disaster. It's really just a question of degree.

Quote:

either it was helped by people within this government and country, or the "greatest nation on earth" is run by a bunch of fucking idiots. i seriously doubt that THAT many people in THAT many branches of the government are THAT retarded.




all the evidence shows that yeah, they really might be THAT retarded. Bush's administration runs on a spoils system, so from the top down people in the executive branch are completely unqualified.

Quote:

why do you find it so hard to step out of the confine of your own mind and accept the possibility that not every american is good, and that many of them work for their own benefit? why is it so hard for you to accept the possibility that people within our own government would have no problem allowing its own people to die for whatever reason? i have stepped out of the box long ago, where are you?




why do you guys always assume that those of us who don't believe you want to like the government. I've read the history, I'm well aware that america in no way has any sort of moral high ground, and I harbor no preconceived notions about how shit works. I would love to believe that there is an evil shadow organization controlling the world. However, I have enough intellectual restraint to see that the facts simply don't add up in your favor.

and for the record, if all you're saying is that the government allowed 9/11 to happen through negligence, I could believe that a lot sooner than I could believe they actively planned it.


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8113391 - 03/06/08 09:17 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

leftysurprise said:
Quote:

zSDMF said:
the only real way to settle the 9/11 conspiracy is to just not give a fuck.  planes clearly hit the buildings and they fell.  there probably is a lot more important details missing but thank the lord i'm not concerned with them.




that makes alot of sense. lets not give a fuck about anything. lets just believe everything the government tells us like good little cattle.

guess you had better stop using any and all drugs, as a matter of fact you shouldnt break the law in any way they see fit. :rolleyes:




we can SEE the planes flying into the buildings.  Then the buildings fall down.  That much we knwo.  If you're going to believe EVERY form of information we receive is BS go ahead, but if that's the case then you certainly don't have any information with which to combat our sheepish notions.

The rabbit hole isn't nearly as deep as you think.  The truth is more terrifying: nobody knows what the fuck is going on.




how about you go back and read my posts?? because i havent mentioned anything about the towers. until this paragraph right here.

i find it pretty crazy that anyone would have the resources to rig the twin towers with demo charges and choreograph it to look like planes took them down. however i do find it highly unlikely that they would fall in the manner that they did. i choose to not argue this aspect of the 9/11 argument.

however noone can seem to address two things i HAVE mentioned, which are building 7 and the fact that the crime scene was not secured and intensely inspected, instead being cleaned up very quickly and most evidence being destroyed rather quickly.

i dont believe every piece of information i come across. neither from the governments side, nor the conspiracy side. why do you completely dismiss every single thing that the other side has to say?


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla *DELETED* [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8113404 - 03/06/08 09:20 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Chemy]
    #8113453 - 03/06/08 09:28 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Just to clarify: if all you're saying is that the government let 9/11 happen, I have no way of refuting that. It makes sense and is theoretically plausible, but at the same time it seems unlikely that so many people would allow such negligence to occur. The thing about a conspiracy is that you can't have too many people involved in it or else word WILL get out.

If you think the government actively planned and executed 9/11, I'm sorry but that's dumb. I'm not being a sheep. All that shit about building 7, it's been refuted by college physicists and the like. It's easy to fall into the traps of conspiracy theories. Ya gots ta be careful.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8113459 - 03/06/08 09:30 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

all the evidence shows that yeah, they really might be THAT retarded. Bush's administration runs on a spoils system, so from the top down people in the executive branch are completely unqualified.




well noone has to tell me about the unqualifications of the current executive branch, however the negligence or treasonous acts, whichever they may be, or a combination of both, spans down through many branches, it wasnt just bush and his cabinet. i find it highly unlikely that the FAA, NORAD and the other protective areas of our government all let such a monumental error occur.

there was nearly an hour gap in between the first tower being hit and the pentagon being hit. youre telling me that you believe that after not one but TWO jetliners are hijacked and crashed into american iconic buildings, that our government as a whole(executive and defense) allowed a third plane to hit the nerve center of the most advanced military on the planet?? when the pentagon not only has jets nearby, but they also have ground to air missile defense?


Quote:

why do you guys always assume that those of us who don't believe you want to like the government. I've read the history, I'm well aware that america in no way has any sort of moral high ground, and I harbor no preconceived notions about how shit works. I would love to believe that there is an evil shadow organization controlling the world. However, I have enough intellectual restraint to see that the facts simply don't add up in your favor.

and for the record, if all you're saying is that the government allowed 9/11 to happen through negligence, I could believe that a lot sooner than I could believe they actively planned it.







see there is your biggest fault in this argument, you lump everyone that doesnt agree with your side into one category. i do not speak for anyone but myself.

i never said the government planned it, i think most of the government had no idea as to what was going on at all. i think that either a few people on the inside turned a blind eye for personal benefit, or a few people on the inside actually helped to plan it.

i find similarities between PNAC's early to mid 90's plans for the new millenium and what has happened in the last 8 years HIGHLY coincidental.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Chemy]
    #8113469 - 03/06/08 09:31 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

leftysurprise said:


that makes alot of sense. lets not give a fuck about anything. lets just believe everything the government tells us like good little cattle.

guess you had better stop using any and all drugs, as a matter of fact you shouldnt break the law in any way they see fit. :rolleyes:



I used to care, a lot, but then I realized that this event will follow the same route as the MLK assassination, the JFK assassination and other suspicious events.

If someone had "flash" or "thermal" video evidence of the WTC event, nothing would happen, some people are untouchable and the Bush/Cheney family happens to be a prime example.




i agree. which is why most of my desire to fight for it has faded. like i said earlier, sometimes i get a spark and argue. this is one of those sparks. im sure itll die soon. :shrug:


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Invisiblemanyc
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8113484 - 03/06/08 09:33 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Just because lots of bullshit surrounds 9/11 doesn't mean the government caused it.

You conspiracy theorists need to break free from the confines of your own minds.




not all of us think the government did it.

i for one do not think george bush had anything to do with it. what i do believe that it is a possibility and a probability that some elements within the government had something to do with it, and at the very least helped it happen.

some elements within our government had to have either stood by idly while it happened, or wanted it to happen for whatever reasons, for the historically monumental blunders that happened, to happen.

either it was helped by people within this government and country, or the "greatest nation on earth" is run by a bunch of fucking idiots. i seriously doubt that THAT many people in THAT many branches of the government are THAT retarded.

Quote:

You conspiracy theorists need to break free from the confines of your own minds.




why do you find it so hard to step out of the confine of your own mind and accept the possibility that not every american is good, and that many of them work for their own benefit? why is it so hard for you to accept the possibility that people within our own government would have no problem allowing its own people to die for whatever reason? i have stepped out of the box long ago, where are you?




Well said.

Anyone who believes (as if they actually know) one way or the other is blinded.

Even if they weren't the actual perpetrators, the government certainly let it happen. We all know about the report, before the attack even happened, that indicated a terrorist attack was likely. What the fuck man.

They probably let it happen, just like they let Pearl Harbor happen. I think they just fucking love to have a reason to fight because they get bored as shit, and it may just be that simple. I don't know. I'm just speculating further... frivolously, at that.


--------------------

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8113518 - 03/06/08 09:39 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Just to clarify: if all you're saying is that the government let 9/11 happen, I have no way of refuting that. It makes sense and is theoretically plausible, but at the same time it seems unlikely that so many people would allow such negligence to occur. The thing about a conspiracy is that you can't have too many people involved in it or else word WILL get out.

If you think the government actively planned and executed 9/11, I'm sorry but that's dumb. I'm not being a sheep. All that shit about building 7, it's been refuted by college physicists and the like. It's easy to fall into the traps of conspiracy theories. Ya gots ta be careful.




this is pretty accurate. i think that it was mostly allowed to happen for their benefit, because noone can deny that the current administration has benefitted from 9/11. however i do think that some people HERE did help with the planning, not many, but i definately think a few did.

one person who i 100% believe was in on it was larry silverstein. he has benefitted greatly from 9/11.

and no, noone has proven anything about building 7, other than the fact that its collapse was highly suspicious. im sorry, but if you think two small fires dropped building 7 youre crazy.

this was not caused by fire. nor was the building severely damaged.





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Edited by LeftyBurnz (03/06/08 09:42 PM)

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8113733 - 03/06/08 10:15 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
this is pretty accurate. i think that it was mostly allowed to happen for their benefit, because noone can deny that the current administration has benefitted from 9/11. however i do think that some people HERE did help with the planning, not many, but i definately think a few did.





How!?

His presidency is widely thought of by EVERYONE except neo-cons, Jesus-Freaks, and other believers in fairy tales to have been one of the worst in history!

Are you implying that w/out 9-11, it would have been even WORSE?

This is insane!


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineDieSpectra
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8114055 - 03/06/08 11:09 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

Are you asking how they benefited? Not only have they eviscerated what was left of the bill of rights and constitution, they increased the size, funding, and scope of all government agencies (the same ones that completely failed on 911) and made themselves and their friends even richer on the side through various no bid contracts.

Politicians don't give a fuck about the fact the people despise them. They put on a big act to make us think they care when they are getting elected and then they fuck us in the ass and pass the political football to the opposite side in this case the democrats so they can continue to fuck us in the ass some more and the cycle continues.


On 911, I don't claim to know what happened. What a do know though is government in general, but especially a government and population that is willing to commit genocide against the native Americans, enslave an entire population because of the color of their skin, be the partial inspiration for Hitler(through Henry Ford), covertly carry out mind control experiments on the unwilling(MK-ULTRA), over throw the democratically elected Iranian leader Mosaddeq (operation AJAX), etc, etc, etc, is just about willing to do anything for power and money.

It is bullshit when the government says the terrorists want to take our freedoms and then the government takes away our freedoms to "protect us." In my book their use of fear to achieve their political ends is just as much terrorism as anything else, and I'm fucking fed up with it.

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OfflineViveka
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8114444 - 03/07/08 12:59 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Go back and look at my post on page 3 regarding WTC7. Address the points in that post or you are doing nothing more than regurgitating tired bullshit.

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Invisiblemanyc
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #8114681 - 03/07/08 02:21 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah. Because some guy has come up with a reason for why people may think a certain way, a conclusion I myself could have pulled out of my ass, you seem to think you have an entire group of people all figured out. That is so narrow-minded.

Indeed, people who believe they know that the government had involvement are quite ignorant. But so is every other person arguing the opposite. Each seem to have "credible evidence" supporting their views. So who is really to say what the truth is in this matter? It's a beast too big for you or me to understand, even if your ego believes it can. To quote Trent Reznor,

"Don't try to tell me how some power can corrupt a person!
You haven't had enough to know what its like."


--------------------

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Edited by manyc (03/07/08 02:22 AM)

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Invisiblewhattheheck
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8114744 - 03/07/08 02:53 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Trip, that's crazy to ask. These guys don't care, they're at war. They got accomplished what they wanted accomplished for the most part, of course the insurgency screwed up the after party a bit for 'em but oh well. They made them and their friends a fortune, gotten rid of a sworn enemy who put out a hit on one of their matriarchs, and got to drive the biggest boat in the world for 8 years. Now it's back to the ranch. Not to mention Jeb and George P. warming up in the bullpen. If you think we've seen the last of the Bushes, shoot.....

This isn't Bill and Hillary. These guys truly don't give a country d*mn what you or me or anyone else thinks.

Did they know? Maybe. Did they PLAN it? No way.

Besides, Bush truly sees this war as WWIII and one of the final stages in the preparation for the return of the Christ. Biblical prophesy is one part of this story that is constantly left out and yet from all accounts is a HUGE factor in his decision making, even if he does try to keep that under the covers.


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Edited by whattheheck (03/07/08 02:57 AM)

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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: zSDMF]
    #8115458 - 03/07/08 10:14 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

zSDMF said:
the only real way to settle the 9/11 conspiracy is to just not give a fuck.  planes clearly hit the buildings and they fell.  there probably is a lot more important details missing but thank the lord i'm not concerned with them.




LOL,

some guy was in the news this week.  He was on a first date with a girl.  The police found the girl dead with 30+ knife wounds.  The guy said she was suicidal and had stabbed herself to death.

I expect you think she did stab herself to death.:strokebeard:

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8115468 - 03/07/08 10:18 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

No, I would think the crazed boyfriend stabbed her.

Especially if he confessed to doing it.

But I certainly wouldn't spend my time coming up with ways to show she was wired with electronically-detonated squib charges to form the elaborate ruse that she was stabbed.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8115502 - 03/07/08 10:27 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Forget 9/11.

The only question is, when the government is gonna get the balls to go through with their real plan - which is to reduce the human population of Earth by 80%. And when they start trying to vaporize biological weapons over american cities and take people to "prison camps" under declaration of martial law.... I bet the same people are gonna be saying it was planes crashing into buildings that caused it to happen. Or maybe not.

Mass murder by our leaders is hard to accept by most people who want to believe the lies they are force fed from birth.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Shroomism]
    #8115511 - 03/07/08 10:30 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Whatever makes you feel better, bub.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8115518 - 03/07/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

It doesn't make me feel good at all. The truth that is. In fact, it makes me very, very angry.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Shroomism]
    #8115522 - 03/07/08 10:33 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

I cannot see how anyone can honestly believe something like that is in the offing.

I defies any kind of rational belief.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8115534 - 03/07/08 10:37 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

What? The part about overpopulation or the part about how they want to decrease the entire world population by 80% or more by 2020?
Yes, it defies any kind of rational belief.. you know.. since in the 50s overpopulation was "predicted" as being the biggest problem we would face in the future.
And it's not like we have any new deadly diseases now, or senseless wars... logic just flew out the window.


From THEIR point of view:

- This planet cannot support 7+ billion human life forms at our rate of consumption... which it cannot.
The problem here is our consumption patterns and our destructive tendencies, not the population.

- A smaller population will be easier to control.


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Invisiblemanyc
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Shroomism]
    #8115712 - 03/07/08 11:38 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

I heard about that, and don't doubt it for a second. The government is a cold, heartless collective organism of selfish individuals only concerned with its own survival. I think its snowballed into something that not even the "leaders" could stop. We are expendable worker ants to them.


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Hemp could Save the World.

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InvisiblezSDMF
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8115741 - 03/07/08 11:46 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Humble lurker said:
Quote:

zSDMF said:
the only real way to settle the 9/11 conspiracy is to just not give a fuck.  planes clearly hit the buildings and they fell.  there probably is a lot more important details missing but thank the lord i'm not concerned with them.




LOL,

some guy was in the news this week.  He was on a first date with a girl.  The police found the girl dead with 30+ knife wounds.  The guy said she was suicidal and had stabbed herself to death.

I expect you think she did stab herself to death.:strokebeard:




man all i was tryin to get across was yeah, september 11th definitely happened, no shit i was alive too.  i KNOW planes hit those mother fuckers and i know they fell down to the ground.  i know many good people died making a living and many, many more have died in the war.

that said, i am NOT trying to stress about why those buildings fell.  and believe it or not, i'm not a total retard.  i'm just not a super liberal hippie douche who has to blame everything on the government.  i don't need to do soul searching or scour the internet for those conspiracy theories written by bored kids.  i know buildings fell, i know people died, i know i mourned.  i mean, if it came out the government took down the buildings i'd be one of the first in the protest line, but goddamn i just don't care that much.  i live my life, and my life isn't all that concerned with how some buildings fell when i watched a god damn plane fly into them.

i'm not arguing specifics, just throwing down more elaboration on my post.

btw, that was a HORRIBLE example to throw at me too, comparing september 11th to some ho getting stabbed 30 times is ludicrous.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8116349 - 03/07/08 03:04 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

manyc said:
I heard about that, and don't doubt it for a second. The government is a cold, heartless collective organism of selfish individuals only concerned with its own survival. I think its snowballed into something that not even the "leaders" could stop. We are expendable worker ants to them.




They only have power because of the 'worker ants' though. I just watched a movie called 'Advertising and the End of the World' (I recommend it). It gets into detail about how advertisers perpetuate our massive consumption habits (have to think both individual and collective) by equating emotions like happiness and love with products that have nothing to do with them. Consumption and sustainability is the problem, not necessarily the population - as was said. People NEED to take a second look at their own habits and make personal changes. Sweat shop clothing, unnecessary crap, endless forms of new technology, locally grown foods vs imported, etc.

There is an older issue of Scientific American I have and on the cover are the words 'Feast and Famine, The Global Paradox of Obesity and Malnutrition'. Self-explanatory. In a Time magazine there is an article that outlines the average expenditures on food by week. Japan is at $318, Germany $500, the US is at $350 and Mexico is at $189. Mexico lags a little behind, especially compared to Germany.. however, even Mexico is living in luxury compared to Chad. Some Chad families live on $1.23 per week. Balanced this is not.

The government can only be blamed for so much.. change really starts at home.


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Edited by WScott (03/07/08 03:05 PM)

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Viveka]
    #8116491 - 03/07/08 03:35 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Viveka said:
Go back and look at my post on page 3 regarding WTC7. Address the points in that post or you are doing nothing more than regurgitating tired bullshit.




Quote:

These days this is the most tired misnomer in the true believers' jumblebag. No, it wasn't hit by a plane...but it was hit by huge chunks of concrete and steel falling on it, doesn't that count?

Captain Chris Boyle
Engine 94 - 18 years

Boyle: ...on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

www.911myths.com/assets/images/WTC7Corner.jpg

The building was heavily damaged, but you apparently didn't know that otherwise you wouldn't have been so cocksure and loud about it.

Maybe analysis of evidence isn't for you. Perhaps try some critical thinking: If your assertion is that WTC7 was brought down in controlled demolition, would purpose did the controlled demo serve? Was it to destroy evidence? Think that one through for a second and you see how stupid it is. If there was something damning in the building, it could have been burned, or deleted, or moved or removed in advance (like you probably believe the explosive charges in the towers were placed by a black ops team).

What functional purpose could taking down WTC7 with controlled demolition possibly serve for the perpetrators? Oh, lemme guess, it was Larry Silverstein's insurance policy right?





i went back and took a look at it, and i thank you for actually posting something in response to the whole building 7 argument. this is the first time i have seen any piece of evidence that the building was damaged outside of fire. that being said, even that picture does not convince me as to why the building fell in the manner it did. the damage was to one corner, and the hole was roughly 2-3 offices deep, lets just suppose for a minute that the damage shown in the picture WAS enough for the whole building to collapse, it does not explain how the building fell uniformly straight down at the same time, and into itself creating a neat pile of small pieces inside the perimeter of the building. it should have collapsed towards the damaged corner, and the whole building would not have collapsed from the damage shown. there should have been large chunks and huge connecting twisted sections of steel frame.

take a good look at the two videos i posted of the building 7 collapse and tell me you honestly think the damage shown in that picture is responsible for what you see, it is impossible considering the structural strength and design of the frame.

the reason i do not argue the towers on this aspect is because i can POSSIBLY see the wreckage gaining force and momentum as it made its way down the towers, but not building 7.


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Shroomism]
    #8116501 - 03/07/08 03:36 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
It doesn't make me feel good at all. The truth that is. In fact, it makes me very, very angry.




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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8116535 - 03/07/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
even that picture does not convince me as to why the building fell in the manner it did. the damage was to one corner, and the hole was roughly 2-3 offices deep, lets just suppose for a minute that the damage shown in the picture WAS enough for the whole building to collapse, it does not explain how the building fell uniformly straight down at the same time, and into itself creating a neat pile of small pieces inside the perimeter of the building. it should have collapsed towards the damaged corner, and the whole building would not have collapsed from the damage shown. there should have been large chunks and huge connecting twisted sections of steel frame.

take a good look at the two videos i posted of the building 7 collapse and tell me you honestly think the damage shown in that picture is responsible for what you see, it is impossible considering the structural strength and design of the frame.






You're using a fucking video to determine how a building should have fallen.  Nothing you say is valid.  Then you talk about the structural strength and design of the frame. :rolleyes:  I would like to see the structural drawings that you're referencing.

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Cowgold]
    #8116730 - 03/07/08 04:25 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Cowgold said:
Quote:

leftysurprise said:
even that picture does not convince me as to why the building fell in the manner it did. the damage was to one corner, and the hole was roughly 2-3 offices deep, lets just suppose for a minute that the damage shown in the picture WAS enough for the whole building to collapse, it does not explain how the building fell uniformly straight down at the same time, and into itself creating a neat pile of small pieces inside the perimeter of the building. it should have collapsed towards the damaged corner, and the whole building would not have collapsed from the damage shown. there should have been large chunks and huge connecting twisted sections of steel frame.

take a good look at the two videos i posted of the building 7 collapse and tell me you honestly think the damage shown in that picture is responsible for what you see, it is impossible considering the structural strength and design of the frame.






You're using a fucking video to determine how a building should have fallen.  Nothing you say is valid.  Then you talk about the structural strength and design of the frame. :rolleyes:  I would like to see the structural drawings that you're referencing.




no im using a fucking video, basic to mediocre knowledge of structural strength in high rise buildings and common sense. i have two friends which are engineers, one a structural and the other a civil. i conversate with them about their jobs on a pretty frequent basis, the structural engineer works for a company that builds hospitals, and i have seen pictures of every phase of contruction. sure a hospital is not 40 something stories as building 7 was, however i understand fairly well how structural frames are put together and reinforced.

i also had to do a project in HS for technology class involving building an 8'x6'x4' scale model of a modern high rise building, the project was to show stress loads and how the structural frame handled it. it was not made with steel or concrete, instead wood and metal connections, however the strength was supposed to be pretty close to scale  and we tested several stresses, including demonstrating the effect of having one bottom side blown out. we knocked out 1/3 of the buildings structural support to cause a collapse. it did not crumble from the floor up straight down. nor did it fall into a neat inward pile.

not to say this ultimately proves anything, but i am saying that if that fucking building was built to code and correctly, it should not have fallen the way it did given the damage it sustained.


i wasnt aware i needed a 10 year degree to make an opinion? ill get right on that cow. :rolleyes:

building 7, a well built steel structure crumbles because of mild damage to one corner, yet the oklahoma city building(not steel structure) has nearly 1/3 of the building blown off and stands just fine? hard to imagine.



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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8116952 - 03/07/08 05:19 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

:congrats:


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8117020 - 03/07/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

you think the hole was 2-3 offices deep? are you fucking blind?

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #8117140 - 03/07/08 06:06 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
you think the hole was 2-3 offices deep? are you fucking blind?




based on this photo, which is the only photo to date that i have seen of actual structural damage to building 7, no i can see just fine. looks like about 2-3 offices deep. well windows i should say, for all i know that could only be 1 office. :shrug:


there are a couple other pictures on this site of WTC7 although most are the same angles we have all seen in the past. these two however are from the supposed damaged side.

this one is kind of hard to see through the smoke, however where you can see through the smoke, i see no significant damage.




these two you can see through the smoke alot better. and correct me if i am wrong, but i see no major damage, certainly nothing to warrant a collapse.








so with all of the pictures and video available, the only evidence of structural damage is in the first picture with the small hole on the corner.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8117211 - 03/07/08 06:28 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

:bow:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: niteowl]
    #8117231 - 03/07/08 06:34 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Pre-9/11 Put Options on Companies Hurt by Attack Indicates Foreknowledge

Financial transactions in the days before the attack suggest that certain individuals used foreknowledge of the attack to reap huge profits. 1 The evidence of insider trading includes:

* Huge surges in purchases of put options on stocks of the two airlines used in the attack -- United Airlines and American Airlines
* Surges in purchases of put options on stocks of reinsurance companies expected to pay out billions to cover losses from the attack -- Munich Re and the AXA Group
* Surges in purchases of put options on stocks of financial services companies hurt by the attack -- Merrill Lynch & Co., and Morgan Stanley and Bank of America
* Huge surge in purchases of call options of stock of a weapons manufacturer expected to gain from the attack -- Raytheon
* Huge surges in purchases of 5-Year US Treasury Notes

In each case, the anomalous purchases translated into large profits as soon as the stock market opened a week after the attack: put options were used on stocks that would be hurt by the attack, and call options were used on stocks that would benefit.

Put and call options are contracts that allow their holders to sell and buy assets, respectively, at specified prices by a certain date. Put options allow their holders to profit from declines in stock values because they allow stocks to be bought at market price and sold for the higher option price. The ratio of the volume of put option contracts to call option contracts is called the put/call ratio. The ratio is usually less than one, with a value of around 0.8 considered normal. 2
Losers

American Airlines and United Airlines, and several insurance companies and banks posted huge loses in stock values when the markets opened on September 17. Put options -- financial instruments which allow investors to profit from the decline in value of stocks -- were purchased on the stocks of these companies in great volume in the week before the attack.
United Airlines and American Airlines

Two of the corporations most damaged by the attack were American Airlines (AMR), the operator of Flight 11 and Flight 77, and United Airlines (UAL), the operator of Flight 175 and Flight 93. According to CBS News, in the week before the attack, the put/call ratio for American Airlines was four. 3 The put/call ratio for United Airlines was 25 times above normal on September 6. 4



The spikes in put options occurred on days that were uneventful for the airlines and their stock prices.
On Sept. 6-7, when there was no significant news or stock price movement involving United, the Chicago exchange handled 4,744 put options for UAL stock, compared with just 396 call options -- essentially bets that the price will rise. On Sept. 10, an uneventful day for American, the volume was 748 calls and 4,516 puts, based on a check of option trading records. 5

The Bloomberg News reported that put options on the airlines surged to the phenomenal high of 285 times their average.
Over three days before terrorists flattened the World Trade Center and damaged the Pentagon, there was more than 25 times the previous daily average trading in a Morgan Stanley "put" option that makes money when shares fall below $45. Trading in similar AMR and UAL put options, which make money when their stocks fall below $30 apiece, surged to as much as 285 times the average trading up to that time. 6

When the market reopened after the attack, United Airlines stock fell 42 percent from $30.82 to $17.50 per share, and American Airlines stock fell 39 percent, from $29.70 to $18.00 per share. 7
Reinsurance Companies

Several companies in the reinsurance business were expected to suffer huge losses from the attack: Munich Re of Germany and Swiss Re of Switzerland -- the world's two biggest reinsurers, and the AXA Group of France. In September, 2001, the San Francisco Chronicle estimated liabilities of $1.5 billion for Munich Re and $0.55 bilion for the AXA Group and telegraph.co.uk estimated liabilities of £1.2 billion for Munich Re and £0.83 billion for Swiss Re. 8 9

Trading in shares of Munich Re was almost double its normal level on September 6, and 7, and trading in shares of Swiss Re was more than double its normal level on September 7. 10
Financial Services Companies

Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co. and Merrill Lynch & Co. were both headquartered in lower Manhattan at the time of the attack. Morgan Stanley occupied 22 floors of the North Tower and Merrill Lynch had headquarters near the Twin Towers. Morgan Stanley, which saw an average of 27 put options on its stock bought per day before September 6, saw 2,157 put options bought in the three trading days before the attack. Merrill Lynch, which saw an average of 252 put options on its stock bought per day before September 5, saw 12,215 put options bought in the four trading days before the attack. Morgan Stanley's stock dropped 13% and Merrill Lynch's stock dropped 11.5% when the market reopened. 11

Bank of America showed a fivefold increase in put option trading on the Thursday and Friday before the attack.
A Bank of America option that would profit if the No. 3 U.S. bank's stock fell below $60 a share had more than 5,900 contracts traded on the Thursday and Friday before the Sept. 11 assaults, almost five times the previous average trading, according to Bloomberg data. The bank's shares fell 11.5 percent to $51 in the first week after trading resumed on Sept. 17. 12
Winners

While most companies would see their stock valuations decline in the wake of the attack, those in the business of supplying the military would see dramatic increases, reflecting the new business they were poised to receive.
Raytheon

Raytheon, maker of Patriot and Tomahawk missiles, saw its stock soar immediately after the attack. Purchases of call options on Raytheon stock increased sixfold on the day before the attack.
A Raytheon option that makes money if shares are more than $25 each had 232 options contracts traded on the day before the attacks, almost six times the total number of trades that had occurred before that day. A contract represents options on 100 shares. Raytheon shares soared almost 37 percent to $34.04 during the first week of post-attack U.S. trading. 13

Raytheon has been fined millions of dollars inflating the costs of equipment it sells the US military. Raytheon has a secretive subsidiary, E-Systems, whose clients have included the CIA and NSA. 14
US Treasury Notes

Five-year US Treasury notes were purchased in abnormally high volumes before the attack, and their buyers were rewarded with sharp increases in their value following the attack.
The Wall Street Journal reported on October 2 that the ongoing investigation by the SEC into suspicious stock trades had been joined by a Secret Service probe into an unusually high volume of five-year US Treasury note purchases prior to the attacks. The Treasury note transactions included a single $5 billion trade. As the Journal explained: "Five-year Treasury notes are among the best investments in the event of a world crisis, especially one that hits the US. The notes are prized for their safety and their backing by the US government, and usually rally when investors flee riskier investments, such as stocks." The value of these notes, the Journal pointed out, has risen sharply since the events of September 11. 15
The SEC's Investigation

Shortly after the attack the SEC circulated a list of stocks to securities firms around the world seeking information. 16 A widely circulated article states that the stocks flagged by the SEC included those of the following corporations: American Airlines, United Airlines, Continental Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, US Airways airlines, Martin, Boeing, Lockheed Martin Corp., AIG, American Express Corp, American International Group, AMR Corporation, AXA SA, Bank of America Corp, Bank of New York Corp, Bank One Corp, Cigna Group, CNA Financial, Carnival Corp, Chubb Group, John Hancock Financial Services, Hercules Inc., L-3 Communications Holdings, Inc., LTV Corporation, Marsh & McLennan Cos. Inc., MetLife, Progressive Corp., General Motors, Raytheon, W.R. Grace, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd., Lone Star Technologies, American Express, the Citigroup Inc., Royal & Sun Alliance, Lehman Brothers Holdings, Inc., Vornado Reality Trust, Morgan Stanley, Dean Witter & Co., XL Capital Ltd., and Bear Stearns.

An October 19 article in the San Francisco Chronicle reported that the SEC, after a period of silence, had undertaken the unprecedented action of deputizing hundreds of private officials in its investigation:
The proposed system, which would go into effect immediately, effectively deputizes hundreds, if not thousands, of key players in the private sector.
...
In a two-page statement issued to "all securities-related entities" nationwide, the SEC asked companies to designate senior personnel who appreciate "the sensitive nature" of the case and can be relied upon to "exercise appropriate discretion" as "point" people linking government investigators and the industry. 17

Michael Ruppert, a former LAPD officer, explains the consequences of this action:
What happens when you deputize someone in a national security or criminal investigation is that you make it illegal for them to disclose publicly what they know. Smart move. In effect, they become government agents and are controlled by government regulations rather than their own conscience. In fact, they can be thrown in jail without a hearing if they talk publicly. I have seen this implied threat time and again with federal investigations, intelligence agents, and even members of the United States Congress who are bound so tightly by secrecy oaths and agreements that they are not even able to disclose criminal activities inside the government for fear of incarceration. 18
Interpreting and Reinterpreting the Data

An analysis of the press reports on the subject of apparent insider trading related to the attack shows a trend, with early reports highlighting the anomalies, and later reports excusing them. In his book Crossing the Rubicon Michael C. Ruppert illustrates this point by first excerpting a number of reports published shortly after the attack:

* A jump in UAL (United Airlines) put options 90 times (not 90 percent) above normal between September 6 and September 10, and 285 times higher than average on the Thursday before the attack.
-- CBS News, September 26
* A jump in American Airlines put options 60 times (not 60 percent) above normal on the day before the attacks.
-- CBS News, September 26
* No similar trading occurred on any other airlines
-- Bloomberg Business Report, the Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), Herzliyya, Israel [citing data from the CBOE] 3
* Morgan Stanley saw, between September 7 and September 10, an increase of 27 times (not 27 percent) in the purchase of put options on its shares. 4
* Merrill-Lynch saw a jump of more than 12 times the normal level of put options in the four trading days before the attacks. 5

[Excerpted ENDNOTES]

3. "Mechanics of Possible Bin Laden Insider Trading Scam," Herzlyya International Policy Institute for Counter Terrorism (ICT), September 22, 2001. Michael C. Ruppert, "The Case for Bush Administration Advance Knowledge of 9-11 Attacks," From the Wilderness April 22, 2002. Posted at Centre for Research and Globalization <www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RUP203A.html>;.

4. ICT, op. cit, citing data from the Chicago Board of Options Exchange (CBOE). [...] "Terrorists trained at CBPE." Chicago Sun-Times, September 20, 2001, <www.suntimes.com/terror/stories/cst-nws-trade20.html>;. "Probe of options trading link to attacks confirmed," [...] Chicago Sun-Times, September 21, 2001, <www.suntimes.com/terror/stories/cst-fin-trade21.html>;.

5. ICT, op. cit.
19

Ruppert then illustrates an apparent attempt to bury the story by explaining it away as nothing unusual. A September 30 New York Times article claims that "benign explanations are turning up" in the SEC's investigation. 20 The article blames the activity in put options, which it doesn't quantify, on "market pessimism," but fails to explain why the price of the stocks in the airlines doesn't reflect the same market pessimism.

The fact that $2.5 million of the put options remained unclaimed is not explained at all by market pessimism, and is evidence that the put option purchasers were part of a criminal conspiracy.


---


Evidence of people knowing about 9/11 before hand is everywhere. You only believe what you want to believe, and the Federal Government has their ways of explaining what happened by using their 'Federal Scientists', but you connect enough links and its obvious. The evidence above is just one peice of the puzzle out of many.



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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8117317 - 03/07/08 06:59 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I feel the same way. After arguing about it for years, I just don't understand how anyone can believe in a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people.






It involves fear or losing your job and using alot of lies to trick people so that people involved in the government didn't realize what was going on. You might want to ask yourself how many insiders came foward when Hitler burned his own Parliamentary Building keeping in mind he blamed it on 'terrorists' taking an open free society into facism. Here is a list of 9/11 Whistleblowers who had the balls and courage to stand up against what they know is wrong

http://www.prisonplanet.com/Pages/230904_whistleblowers.html

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8117366 - 03/07/08 07:11 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
Quote:

Cowgold said:
Quote:

leftysurprise said:
building 7, a well built steel structure crumbles because of mild damage to one corner, yet the oklahoma city building(not steel structure) has nearly 1/3 of the building blown off and stands just fine? hard to imagine.





Dude, you're not supposed to bring up historical references, it makes the shills job's harder, which means they get more taxpayers money to lie and deny.

Whilst we're on the subject of historical examples of false flag attacks, again, the reischstag fire is still relevant today

http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi?Gw=reischstag+fire+and+enabling+act


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8117376 - 03/07/08 07:14 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

wow, you messed that quote all up :lol:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8117453 - 03/07/08 07:38 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

I have been drinking beer. It gives me special dispensations.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8118508 - 03/08/08 01:18 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

i also had to do a project in HS for technology class involving building an 8'x6'x4' scale model of a modern high rise building, the project was to show stress loads and how the structural frame handled it. it was not made with steel or concrete, instead wood and metal connections, however the strength was supposed to be pretty close to scale and we tested several stresses, including demonstrating the effect of having one bottom side blown out. we knocked out 1/3 of the buildings structural support to cause a collapse. it did not crumble from the floor up straight down. nor did it fall into a neat inward pile.




:rolleyes:

If you have any intellectual honesty whatsoever you know this is completely meaningless.  You can't begin to compare a few feet lengths of wood and metal stuck together to the dynamics of a 60 story functional skyscraper. 

A better comparison is your own body.  If one of your legs collapses under you and you are using that leg to bear the load of your body, you are going to crumble straight to the floor, unless you have some sort of forward momentum which, believe it or not, buildings don't have.  It's not a great analogy, I'm just trying to get you to think.  This is how gravity works, it pulls things straight toward the center of the Earth.  There isn't some mysterious component to gravity where things get pushed to one lateral direction or another.  Shit falls straight down.  You can see WTC7 'kink' for a split second, which is all it takes for the foundation to be rendered useless then gravity quickly pulls all that mass straight down.  Why would you expect it to fall over to the side?  I don't think you are appreciating what happens when gravity gets the best of tremendous mass.

Further, consider the profile of WTC7, a very tall building with a very narrow foundation.  If anything were to compromise said foundation, say a hole 20 stories tall and who knows how deep, it wouldn't be very good for the structual integrity of the building.  All the firefighters and structural engineers on site knew this which is why no one went in. Stare at photos all you want.  In the photo I provided, you can only see the top 9 stories worth of damage and have no perspective on the greater south face.  Even if you could it wouldn't mean shit because you know nothing about structural integrity of WTC7 and even if you did you couldn't anticipate reality.  Quit acting like what you think a photo might mean is actually evidence of something.

Quote:

not to say this ultimately proves anything, but i am saying that if that fucking building was built to code and correctly, it should not have fallen the way it did given the damage it sustained.



Doesn't mean shit.  'Truthers' are always asking how could the towers have fallen when they were designed to withstand plane impacts?  So what if they were designed to withstand the impacts, even the impacts of large commercial airliners fully loaded with fuel, that doesn't make a guarantee on reality that the things won't fall.  I could list hundreds of things that are designed to work a certain way but don't and so could you.

Quote:

building 7, a well built steel structure crumbles because of mild damage to one corner, yet the oklahoma city building(not steel structure) has nearly 1/3 of the building blown off and stands just fine? hard to imagine.



Did you really think this one through?  With the Oklahoma City building you have an explosion that carves half the building away all at once.  The rest of the building that's left has foundation beneath it and it's an eight story building with no fires burning inside.  WTC7 is a 60 story building with a lot more mass and it has a significant portion of it's foundation torn away while the remaining intact building perches above it for hours while fires rage inside.  It's also a very tall building with a relatively narrow footing so the mass/foundation ratio isn't so hot to begin with. Bit of a different scenario, wouldn't you say?


Let's pretend for a second that WTC7 was taken down with controlled demolition.  Give me one idea on how this could benefit whoever did it...

Edited by Viveka (03/08/08 01:27 AM)

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Viveka]
    #8118512 - 03/08/08 01:21 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

WORLD WAR 2 WAS A CONSPIRACY


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #8118672 - 03/08/08 02:51 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

So was Eli Manning's game winning drive in the Super Bowl.

Believe that!! Asante Samuel dropped that INT on purpose KNOWING he was going to leave NE.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: AndhesEcuador]
    #8118706 - 03/08/08 03:26 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

AndhesEcuador said:
We can't be 100% certain of anything...

BUT

I wouldn't put it past the government. Look at our involvement around the world covert ops shit, rigging elections, assassinations etc

Land of the free! :rofl:




smartest, most accurate thing in this thread!


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: whattheheck]
    #8118735 - 03/08/08 04:14 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

:rolleyes:

Quote:

If you have any intellectual honesty whatsoever you know this is completely meaningless. You can't begin to compare a few feet lengths of wood and metal stuck together to the dynamics of a 60 story functional skyscraper.




its not called a working scale model for nothing. it was built to closely mimic the structure and bearing loads of an actual building of proportionate dimensions. in case you werent aware, this is how engineers figure out whether or not a design has flaws or not. WORKING scale model.

Quote:

A better comparison is your own body. If one of your legs collapses under you and you are using that leg to bear the load of your body, you are going to crumble straight to the floor, unless you have some sort of forward momentum which, believe it or not, buildings don't have. It's not a great analogy, I'm just trying to get you to think. This is how gravity works, it pulls things straight toward the center of the Earth. There isn't some mysterious component to gravity where things get pushed to one lateral direction or another. Shit falls straight down. You can see WTC7 'kink' for a split second, which is all it takes for the foundation to be rendered useless then gravity quickly pulls all that mass straight down. Why would you expect it to fall over to the side? I don't think you are appreciating what happens when gravity gets the best of tremendous mass.





hmm. if you fall straight to the floor, then you go out of your way to make the fall less efficient and go against the laws of physics.

i dont know about you, but any time i have had one leg go out on me, i fall towards the direction of the leg that gave out. that is the way your body's center of gravity falls when your support is taken out. i have NEVER seen someone fall into indian style position when a leg goes out. :shrug:

and to be frank, theres no need to talk to me like a retard. i know what gravity is and i know what forward motion is, to be honest, im not sure you understand how gravity and a steel structure operate. because the explanation you just tried to give makes absolutely no sense. take a GOOD look at those pictures and you tell me that there is a good enough size hole to collapse the whole building. maybe they do things differently now, but last time i checked, they did not design high rises to crumble like a house of cards when the structurability is compromised. lets just suppose that one THIRD of the buildings bottom weight bearing steel beams were blown out, can YOU HONESTLY tell me that it would cause the whole structure, connecting steel frame, interpoured concrete floors and walls would all come tumbling down at the same time, in a matter of 7 seconds? if so, you truly do not understand how steel framework functions. engineers design these things to salvage any and all parts of the building that can be in the event of traumatic damage.


Quote:

Further, consider the profile of WTC7, a very tall building with a very narrow foundation. If anything were to compromise said foundation, say a hole 20 stories tall and who knows how deep, it wouldn't be very good for the structual integrity of the building. All the firefighters and structural engineers on site knew this which is why no one went in. Stare at photos all you want. In the photo I provided, you can only see the top 9 stories worth of damage and have no perspective on the greater south face. Even if you could it wouldn't mean shit because you know nothing about structural integrity of WTC7 and even if you did you couldn't anticipate reality. Quit acting like what you think a photo might mean is actually evidence of something.




whatever you say boss. the pictures are right there and you can get a pretty damn good idea of the extent of the damage. if photos mean nothing as far as evidence to you, then you might as well just stop arguing right now, because nothing will satisfy a counter argument for you.

and what are your credentials? what degrees do you have? how about you get off your high horse and bring something to this table besides mockery and insult. i have been very civil in this discussion, yet it never fails, someone like you always comes along and tries to irritate people.


Quote:

Doesn't mean shit. 'Truthers' are always asking how could the towers have fallen when they were designed to withstand plane impacts? So what if they were designed to withstand the impacts, even the impacts of large commercial airliners fully loaded with fuel, that doesn't make a guarantee on reality that the things won't fall. I could list hundreds of things that are designed to work a certain way but don't and so could you.




im not arguing the trade towers, im arguing building 7, which was not seriously impacted, and has no jet fuel to burn at high temps to compromise steel integrity.


Quote:

Did you really think this one through? With the Oklahoma City building you have an explosion that carves half the building away all at once. The rest of the building that's left has foundation beneath it and it's an eight story building with no fires burning inside. WTC7 is a 60 story building with a lot more mass and it has a significant portion of it's foundation torn away while the remaining intact building perches above it for hours while fires rage inside. It's also a very tall building with a relatively narrow footing so the mass/foundation ratio isn't so hot to begin with. Bit of a different scenario, wouldn't you say?




did you think this response through? in proportion to the size difference between the two buildings, the oklahoma building had a far larger chunk blown off, my best guess is around 1/3 of the structure, or close to it. wtc7 didnt even come CLOSE to that amount of damage. i dont see how you consider the amount of damage seen as significant, i would call it damage, not significant damage. i dont see how you come to the conclusion that a significant amount of the foundation is missing, when it is clearly evident in the photos that it isnt. if you choose not to use credible photos as evidence, then i cant even try to convince you any more than that. in the photo taken by the new york POLICE DEPARTMENT, you can clearly see that there are 14 sets of windows on the small side of the building, the damage only reaches over 3 sets of windows max. thats over 80 % of that side of the wall left intact.

lets also not neglect the fact that the oklahoma building has NO large steel structural beams, it is a concrete building, not a steel building. fires or not a weaker building managed to hold up much better?? those fires were not burning nearly hot enough to do any structural damage, that is clearly evident from the BLACK smoke, which signifies an oxygen starved fire.

the windsor high rise in spain burned for roughly 24 hours, there was nothing left but the frame, it was roughly the same size as building 7. it collapsed a little bit on the top floors, but was still standing when the fire burned itself out. explain how one building can completely burn from the ground up and still stand while another has a few small WEAK fires  and completely crumbles.


Quote:

Let's pretend for a second that WTC7 was taken down with controlled demolition. Give me one idea on how this could benefit whoever did it...




ive already said before, i dont know who or why and im not going to speculate, because it would only be a guess to me. someone benefits from everything in life viveka, whether it be famine, war, plague or attacks.


you know, if you choose not to believe it, thats fine with me, i know not everyone will, and that is your choice, but if youre going to come up in here and start thrrowing insults and talking down to people, you can leave your conversation at the door. its unnecessary.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Conspiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8118781 - 03/08/08 04:44 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

One things for sure,

this topic certainly stirs up debate!

Shit or is that a conspiracy too?

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Conspiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8118800 - 03/08/08 04:55 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

this and abortion are guaranteed to start a heated argument in any room.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Conspiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8118836 - 03/08/08 05:28 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

There should definately be a dedicated WTC conspiracy forum.

:duckie:  :chickenhead:  :duckie:  :chickenhead:  :duckie:  :chickenhead:  :duckie:  :chickenhead:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Shroomism]
    #8119131 - 03/08/08 08:43 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Forget 9/11.

The only question is, when the government is gonna get the balls to go through with their real plan - which is to reduce the human population of Earth by 80%. And when they start trying to vaporize biological weapons over american cities and take people to "prison camps" under declaration of martial law.... I bet the same people are gonna be saying it was planes crashing into buildings that caused it to happen. Or maybe not.

Mass murder by our leaders is hard to accept by most people who want to believe the lies they are force fed from birth.




Do you have any evidence to support this? I'm sorry but it just doesn't make sense. Most power hungry people on our planet want to control the world that already exists, not kill everybody and then control the select few. It's actually difficult to argue against this because it's so crazy.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8119708 - 03/08/08 12:52 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Look, the reason I get a bit unforgiving on this topic is because I've spent countless hours looking at this issue and going over the material.  At one point, after seeing a certain amount of conspiracy shit on the web, I believed some of the conspiracy theories.  But then I did a lot of research and looked at it with a critical eye and realized I was wrong in my belief.  I'm not saying I know exactly what happened and how the whole thing went down from the start of the cold war to the end of the day on 9/11, but I do contend that the towers were not brought down by controlled demolition.

Quote:

ts not called a working scale model for nothing. it was built to closely mimic the structure and bearing loads of an actual building of proportionate dimensions. in case you werent aware, this is how engineers figure out whether or not a design has flaws or not. WORKING scale model.




So fucking what?  You were a high school student making a model out of sticks and metal.  Even if you were a pro engineer making a scale replica of WTC7 with the same exact materials and specs, it still wouldn't be a flawless indication of anything.  That's the thing about reality, you can never really predict or recreate any one moment of it.

Quote:

hmm. if you fall straight to the floor, then you go out of your way to make the fall less efficient and go against the laws of physics.




The thing is, buildings aren't intelligent and thus can't make any effort to fall one way or another.  What do you mean by more efficient?

Quote:

take a GOOD look at those pictures and you tell me that there is a good enough size hole to collapse the whole building.



Unlike you, I don't profess to know whether the hole was a "good enough size" or not.  You place way too much faith in your ability to determine these things.  Truth is, you really don't know.  Of course, all the firefighters and other structural experts on site determned that there was a very high probability WTC7 ould collapse so they kept people out of it all day long until it finally did.  Do you think they were all in on the plan to take down the all-important WTC7?

Quote:

maybe they do things differently now, but last time i checked, they did not design high rises to crumble like a house of cards when the structurability is compromised.



Well I'm glad you "checked".  How do they design them then, to fall over to the side so that they cause plenty of damage to surrounding structures and people?

Quote:

lets just suppose that one THIRD of the buildings bottom weight bearing steel beams were blown out, can YOU HONESTLY tell me that it would cause the whole structure, connecting steel frame, interpoured concrete floors and walls would all come tumbling down at the same time, in a matter of 7 seconds?



I don't know buddy and neither do you.  Again, everyone there on 9/11 qualified to make judgements on such things  thought it was a pretty bad thing for the building, and they were right.  What's your gripe with the speed of the fall?  Did you expect it to fall in slow motion?

Quote:

if so, you truly do not understand how steel framework functions. engineers design these things to salvage any and all parts of the building that can be in the event of traumatic damage.



Your point?

Quote:

whatever you say boss. the pictures are right there and you can get a pretty damn good idea of the extent of the damage.



Even if you could get a "pretty damn good idea" of the damage, that doesn't mean you can say with any degree of certainty that it was impossible for the building to fall the way it did.

Quote:

and what are your credentials? what degrees do you have? how about you get off your high horse and bring something to this table besides mockery and insult. i have been very civil in this discussion, yet it never fails, someone like you always comes along and tries to irritate people.



Who gives a fuck about my "credentials"?  Some of the most credentialed people in the world lack the ability to think critically.  Stephen Jones, the guy who put forth the WTC thermate theory has a Ph.D. in physics as well as plenty of other "valuable" credentials.  He also wrote a scholarly paper entitled "Behold My Hands: Evidence for Christ's Visit in Ancient America":nut:

I've brought plenty to the table, in this thread and many others.  How about instead of the ad hominems and other anecdotes, you show me what your evidence is and I will thoroughly debunk it, as has been done time and time again.

Quote:

did you think this response through? in proportion to the size difference between the two buildings, the oklahoma building had a far larger chunk blown off, my best guess is around 1/3 of the structure, or close to it. wtc7 didnt even come CLOSE to that amount of damage. i dont see how you consider the amount of damage seen as significant, i would call it damage, not significant damage.




Oklahama city bldg wasn't left with a reduced foundation supporting a completely intact upper buidling 60 stories high.  I've already explained how this is a bad example.

Quote:

the windsor high rise in spain burned for roughly 24 hours, there was nothing left but the frame, it was roughly the same size as building 7. it collapsed a little bit on the top floors, but was still standing when the fire burned itself out. explain how one building can completely burn from the ground up and still stand while another has a few small WEAK fires and completely crumbles.



Another bad example what a surprise!  (Also, it wasn't just a few small WEAK fires in WTC7, do some fucking research, and are we neglecting the 20 stories worth of foundation damage again?) There are plenty of reasons why the Windsor Tower is a bad example, here's one: It had no structural damage, just fires.

Quote:


    Quote:
    Let's pretend for a second that WTC7 was taken down with controlled demolition. Give me one idea on how this could benefit whoever did it...



ive already said before, i dont know who or why and im not going to speculate, because it would only be a guess to me. someone benefits from everything in life viveka, whether it be famine, war, plague or attacks.




Oh come on, you and lots of other conspiracy lovers have guessed and speculated about all sorts of shit, controlled demolition is one such speculation.  Why not humor me and give me one single idea about how bringing down WTC7 with controlled demolition worked to the benefit of whoever did it?

Quote:

you know, if you choose not to believe it, thats fine with me, i know not everyone will, and that is your choice, but if youre going to come up in here and start thrrowing insults and talking down to people, you can leave your conversation at the door. its unnecessary.



As long as it's pretty obvious to me that you haven't really done your own research or considered the big picture with an unbiased view, I will talk down to your arguments as a matter of principle, laregely because this shit has been driven into the ground(no pun intended) over and over and voer but you somehow missed it.  The reason you probably missed it is because you are the one talking about beliefs.  Critical thinking on this topic leaves no room for your beliefs.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Viveka]
    #8119805 - 03/08/08 01:16 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING WAS A CONSPIRACY
COLUMBINE SHOOTINGS WERE A CONSPIRACY
VA TECH SHOOTINGS WERE A CONSPIRACY
I HAVE NO PENIS
I HAVE NO FRIENDS
I AM A FUCKING IDIOT AND SHOULD KILL MYSELF FOR BELEIVING 9/11 WAS A CONSPIRACY

but seriously all of you conspiracy theorists out there should fucking die. you are all worthless people, with obviously not a single speck of intelligence

p.s. HERPES AND GENITAL WARTS ARE CONSPIRACIES


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: CubensisCutter]
    #8119924 - 03/08/08 01:56 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

show me what your evidence is and I will thoroughly debunk it




You haven't really "debunked" anything. Just as your adversary in this debate is doing, you're just throwing out speculations based on "your own" collection of "evidence." Neither of you fully understand the physics that went on, because every single building ever made is different in some minute way that could cause its destruction to take place differently than another - from a small imperfection somewhere in the structure to an accidentally faulty foundation. Besides, its hard to examine just what is going on when it comes to a storm of explosions and smoke all wrapped up in a steaming sociological bun covered in radical, clasing religious views. You just can't assume you know what went on, even if you think your logic sees through all the smoke.

I love how some people just think they know it all. It must be comforting.

Conspiracy is a fact of government, as history has shown us time and time again. To go into a situation with automatic distrust of such an entity is not unwise.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8120124 - 03/08/08 02:57 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
Quote:

Cowgold said:
Quote:

leftysurprise said:
even that picture does not convince me as to why the building fell in the manner it did. the damage was to one corner, and the hole was roughly 2-3 offices deep, lets just suppose for a minute that the damage shown in the picture WAS enough for the whole building to collapse, it does not explain how the building fell uniformly straight down at the same time, and into itself creating a neat pile of small pieces inside the perimeter of the building. it should have collapsed towards the damaged corner, and the whole building would not have collapsed from the damage shown. there should have been large chunks and huge connecting twisted sections of steel frame.

take a good look at the two videos i posted of the building 7 collapse and tell me you honestly think the damage shown in that picture is responsible for what you see, it is impossible considering the structural strength and design of the frame.






You're using a fucking video to determine how a building should have fallen.  Nothing you say is valid.  Then you talk about the structural strength and design of the frame. :rolleyes:  I would like to see the structural drawings that you're referencing.




no im using a fucking video, basic to mediocre knowledge of structural strength in high rise buildings and common sense. i have two friends which are engineers, one a structural and the other a civil. i conversate with them about their jobs on a pretty frequent basis, the structural engineer works for a company that builds hospitals, and i have seen pictures of every phase of contruction. sure a hospital is not 40 something stories as building 7 was, however i understand fairly well how structural frames are put together and reinforced.

i also had to do a project in HS for technology class involving building an 8'x6'x4' scale model of a modern high rise building, the project was to show stress loads and how the structural frame handled it. it was not made with steel or concrete, instead wood and metal connections, however the strength was supposed to be pretty close to scale  and we tested several stresses, including demonstrating the effect of having one bottom side blown out. we knocked out 1/3 of the buildings structural support to cause a collapse. it did not crumble from the floor up straight down. nor did it fall into a neat inward pile.

not to say this ultimately proves anything, but i am saying that if that fucking building was built to code and correctly, it should not have fallen the way it did given the damage it sustained.


i wasnt aware i needed a 10 year degree to make an opinion? ill get right on that cow. :rolleyes:

building 7, a well built steel structure crumbles because of mild damage to one corner, yet the oklahoma city building(not steel structure) has nearly 1/3 of the building blown off and stands just fine? hard to imagine.






I still would like to see the structural drawings.  I read blueprints when I'm not on here. :strokebeard: That building was fucked up and then it fell.

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Cowgold]
    #8120196 - 03/08/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

wouldn't it be relatively easy to make a realistic computer simulation with a super computer and run it 100 times?

i wonder if either side has rented one out and done that yet...


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8120264 - 03/08/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

That sounds like a very good idea, as long as the programmed physics were perfect or close to. It's a good question as to why someone hasn't paid to have this done yet. At least, I haven't heard about it. Hmm.


--------------------

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8120284 - 03/08/08 03:49 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

There is always a probability that the government allowed 9/11 to occur because of its perceived benefits. There is some logic there, as it gave them an excuse to go back to Iraq which hardcore neocons had wanted since we pulled out the first time, plus gave Bush the ability to pass the patriot act. Of course, personally I don't think the government is as evil as some of you; in all probability I think they're just ambitious to a fault.

But where I draw the line is with these "grand scheme" conspiracy theories. No, we are not going to have chips implemented into our brains. No, the U.S. government is not going to drop chemical weapons on its own cities. No, the Sons of Liberty are not secretly controlling every aspect of our lives.

I don't have any illusions about how fucking self serving and Machiavellian our government is, and I don't think you'll get an argument there from most people. This is why the argument of "you just don't want to believe it" holds no water. History shows us that America has had plenty of so called "conspiracies," but it's never led to any new world order.

Take, for instance, the event that brought us into the Spanish American War in 1898. Many historians believe that American nationalists sank the USS Maine in order to get the U.S. government into war with spain. Many American military officers knew the bombing was not carried out by Spain, but the war was in our best interests so we went along with it anyways. This was greatly helped out by the newly spawned "yellow journalism" movement, which pretty much outright lied to the public in order to gain support for the war. However, it's not like the Freemasons and the Illuminati teamed up to start a war in order to re institute slavery or anything of the sort.

So basically just chill out on your theories. Some of the logic is valid and yes, the American government is completely full of shit. But that's not a conspiracy it's just how it's always worked.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8120287 - 03/08/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

manyc said:
That sounds like a very good idea, as long as the programmed physics were perfect or close to. It's a good question as to why someone hasn't paid to have this done yet. At least, I haven't heard about it. Hmm.




Probably cause nobody's gonna waste money making a program for a case that's already closed.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8120376 - 03/08/08 04:29 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I think it's ludicrous to sit and watch a building fall so gracefully, so perfectly, and believe that it was caused by a bit of structural damage. It fell more cleanly than pretty much any demolition I've seen in my life. And I've seen a lot of videos of demolitions, trust me.

Most eyewitnesses were flabbergasted by the fact that it fell in the manner that it did, from the amount of damage it sustained.

I would not say this case is closed by a long shot. There has been no conclusive data, and the fact that it is "closed" just makes me more suspicious of the entire situation. How the fuck can a case so big be closed so soon? It's completely void of logic.


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Edited by manyc (03/08/08 04:33 PM)

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8120473 - 03/08/08 04:50 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

manyc said:
I think it's ludicrous to sit and watch a building fall so gracefully, so perfectly, and believe that it was caused by a bit of structural damage.

Most eyewitnesses were flabbergasted by the fact that it fell in the manner that it did, from the amount of damage it sustained.

I would not say this case is closed by a long shot. There has been no conclusive data, and the fact that it is "closed" just makes me more suspicious of the entire situation. How the fuck can a case so big be closed so soon? It's completely void of logic.




How else would it fall? Sideways? There is conclusive data and it's been documented as to how WTC7 and the other two world trade centers fell.

http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/466.pdf

http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i42/42a01001.htm

People that understand this stuff much better than you or I have analyzed it and come to the conclusion that foul play was not involved. These aren't government conspirators, they're scientists from major universities. Only on places like the shroomery is this even a debate. For the intellectual community these conspiracies are laughed at because, like it or not, it's all been debunked.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Viveka]
    #8120499 - 03/08/08 04:59 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

as much as i would love to go back and forth with you about nothing(because thats all youre offering, is useless argument), i dont have the time today or tomorrow to retort to the last response you gave me. maybe if i have time monday ill go through and give you more to just scream shenanigans at. :shrug:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8120508 - 03/08/08 05:02 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

manyc said:
That sounds like a very good idea, as long as the programmed physics were perfect or close to. It's a good question as to why someone hasn't paid to have this done yet. At least, I haven't heard about it. Hmm.




Probably cause nobody's gonna waste money making a program for a case that's already closed.




lets not forget that less than $1 million  was spent on the 9/11 investigation.  sounds reasonable compared to the $60+ million spent on impeaching clinton for getting his dick sucked. :nonono:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: manyc]
    #8120516 - 03/08/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

manyc said:
I think it's ludicrous to sit and watch a building fall so gracefully, so perfectly, and believe that it was caused by a bit of structural damage. It fell more cleanly than pretty much any demolition I've seen in my life. And I've seen a lot of videos of demolitions, trust me.

Most eyewitnesses were flabbergasted by the fact that it fell in the manner that it did, from the amount of damage it sustained.

I would not say this case is closed by a long shot. There has been no conclusive data, and the fact that it is "closed" just makes me more suspicious of the entire situation. How the fuck can a case so big be closed so soon? It's completely void of logic.




as long as the thousands and thousands of people, including engineers and other highly educated people argue the facts of the official story, it is not closed.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8120638 - 03/08/08 05:56 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I don't trust everything I read, personally. I take these things with a grain of salt. For all I know these specialists got paid off big time.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #8120678 - 03/08/08 06:09 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

If 9/11 were truly committed by terrorists, and there was no internal involvement- there would be everything to gain and nothing to lose by sharing all of the information with the public and allowing extensive media scrutinization close-up. Why the secrecy?

As for people claiming the failure analysis theories have reached an indisputable conclusion; go through an engineering degree before you pretend you can verify what the reports are claiming. Note that the reference provided http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/466.pdf conveniently uses a simple one dimensional collapse model, which avoids explaining the unusual linearity of the collapses. (I am not saying here that the chosen analysis method was chosen due to conspiracy, however it leaves a very incomplete picture)

There is no proven conspiracy surrounding 9/11, nor is there any proven legitimacy to the stories the government offers.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8120700 - 03/08/08 06:19 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Decades from now, there will be history channel shows on this shit posing both sides of the argument in that neutral way they do, and the different societies still trying to prove the truth.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8120709 - 03/08/08 06:23 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Can anyone present a failure analysis document for building 7? I have spent little time personally researching 9/11 from a technical standpoint, and do not know off hand if this material is available. (I am not naive enough to think I can devise an accurate explanation without more evidence than the government allowed to become available to the public, but I would be interested to see if there is any explanation that can be offered even by those who were hired to 'properly explain' the collapse)

In my opinion, the building 7 collapse is the most brow raising event surrounding 9/11. (Please note multiple reports by engineering and demolition professionals that the collapse of building 7 appears identical to the results of implosive demolition.)


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8120808 - 03/08/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Wow, people still believe this crap? Fucking retards

Explosivemango, NIST has a report on the cause of WTC 7's collapse.











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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: d33p]
    #8120876 - 03/08/08 07:10 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Believe what? A legitimate failure?

The people who believe the government aren't retards d33p, they are just happier with easy answers than complete ones.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8120943 - 03/08/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Believe what? A legitimate failure?

The people who believe the government aren't retards d33p, they are just happier with easy answers than complete ones.




QFR (quoted for retardation)


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: d33p]
    #8120951 - 03/08/08 07:29 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Believe what? A legitimate failure?

The people who believe the government aren't retards d33p, they are just happier with easy answers than complete ones.




QFR (quoted for retardation)




:smirk:


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: d33p]
    #8121033 - 03/08/08 07:50 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Believe what? A legitimate failure?

The people who believe the government aren't retards d33p, they are just happier with easy answers than complete ones.




QFR (quoted for retardation)




It takes a true fucking retard to miss my sarcasm there kid! lol...

I love how arrogance assures itself of correctness.

I make the statement: all that we know is that there is no absolutely conclusive evidence.

You respond: I CANT BELIEVE THAT RETARDS HAVE CONCLUDED AS SUCH


lol... at least it's easy to see which one of us has the education.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121044 - 03/08/08 07:53 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

It's frustrating when any evidence you post is immediately disregarded because the scientists were "paid off" or some other paranoid notion. If that's the way your thinking operates, then theres really no arguing with you, as any evidence will be dismissed. All we can rely on is your "expert" judgment in the situation and your highly advanced memory of that youtube video you saw.

I've heard so many people say "do a little research" and then instantly ignore research that refutes what they have to say.

(not aimed at anybody specific)


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8121112 - 03/08/08 08:09 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

I think I should probably also draw attention to the fact that even NIST is being forced to extrapolate unknown information about the extent of structural damage from the same videos and pictures we have all been referencing. They report this fact on their official site.

The only proof which is being reinforced is that we have a lack of proof.

It's really sad that even on a site like this we have "fucking retards" like d33p who insist on jerking off into their own mouths until all they can taste is themselves. (Primarily metaphorically, most likely literally as well)


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Offlined33p
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121123 - 03/08/08 08:10 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Believe what? A legitimate failure?

The people who believe the government aren't retards d33p, they are just happier with easy answers than complete ones.




QFR (quoted for retardation)




It takes a true fucking retard to miss my sarcasm there kid! lol...

I love how arrogance assures itself of correctness.

I make the statement: all that we know is that there is no absolutely conclusive evidence.

You respond: I CANT BELIEVE THAT RETARDS HAVE CONCLUDED AS SUCH


lol... at least it's easy to see which one of us has the education.




QFR (quoted for retardation)


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121145 - 03/08/08 08:17 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
The only proof which is being reinforced is that we have a lack of proof.





But in the meantime we might as well assume it's a government conspiracy, amirite?


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: d33p]
    #8121166 - 03/08/08 08:25 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Now quote this one for retardation:

d33p recently lost an argument during which he was attempting to prove a conclusion which even the sources he cited denied was yet provable. Upon realizing his logical failure he immediately began resorting to his most advanced level of education (grade 6) to find a new approach to the debate (name calling). After discovering his inadequacy even using his most advanced debating techniques his frustration stimulated his brain into an infinite loop, during which he retorted to each statement with the same, idiotic, comment- "QFR (quoted for retardation)"


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8121181 - 03/08/08 08:27 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
The only proof which is being reinforced is that we have a lack of proof.





But in the meantime we might as well assume it's a government conspiracy, amirite?




In the mean time, we might as well not close the door on that possibility- just like we may not yet want to trust the conclusion that torture without trial in Guantanamo Bay is the best solution to terrorism simply because the converse has not yet been proven.


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121205 - 03/08/08 08:33 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Now quote this one for retardation:

d33p recently lost an argument during which he was attempting to prove a conclusion which even the sources he cited denied was yet provable. Upon realizing his logical failure he immediately began resorting to his most advanced level of education (grade 6) to find a new approach to the debate (name calling). After discovering his inadequacy even using his most advanced debating techniques his frustration stimulated his brain into an infinite loop, during which he retorted to each statement with the same, idiotic, comment- "QFR (quoted for retardation)"




QFR (quoted for retardation)


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: d33p]
    #8121215 - 03/08/08 08:39 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Thank you, thank you.

*bows*


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121255 - 03/08/08 08:52 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Thank you, thank you.

*bows*




QFR (quoted for retardation)


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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: g00ru]
    #8121301 - 03/08/08 09:05 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

How else would it fall? Sideways? There is conclusive data and it's been documented as to how WTC7 and the other two world trade centers fell.




If no explosives were used to take the buildings down, they would have only partially collapsed, if at all. The speed at which they fell would have been much slower than free fall speed because all the structural support would have to break as the buildings fell. The fact that they fell at freefall speed (the same speed that a rock would fall if you tossed it off the top) proves conclusively that explosives were used to take out the supports - Otherwise they would have added resistance and caused the collapse to happen at a much slower speed than free fall.

In addition, a few of the charges went off early, as can clearly be seen in several videos.

Firefights reported hearing the charges go off, which sounded much different than the sound of a collapsing building.

A week before the attacks there was an unprecedented training "exercise" where all the buildings existing security officers were locked out. This would have been an ideal time for terrorists to plant explosives.

Quote:

People that understand this stuff much better than you or I have analyzed it and come to the conclusion that foul play was not involved. These aren't government conspirators, they're scientists from major universities. Only on places like the shroomery is this even a debate. For the intellectual community these conspiracies are laughed at because, like it or not, it's all been debunked.




You can get experts to that say there is foul play, and experts that say that the planes did it.


Its amazing how quickly all the evidence was shipped to China, there are very few samples to analyze.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121307 - 03/08/08 09:07 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:


QFR





again? really?

I would think you'd be embarrassed enough by now... shrug

I guess I'll just continue the conversation with those who are still cognitively motive...


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8121339 - 03/08/08 09:15 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

How else would it fall? Sideways? There is conclusive data and it's been documented as to how WTC7 and the other two world trade centers fell.




If no explosives were used to take the buildings down, they would have only partially collapsed, if at all. The speed at which they fell would have been much slower than free fall speed because all the structural support would have to break as the buildings fell. The fact that they fell at freefall speed (the same speed that a rock would fall if you tossed it off the top) proves conclusively that explosives were used to take out the supports - Otherwise they would have added resistance and caused the collapse to happen at a much slower speed than free fall.

In addition, a few of the charges went off early, as can clearly be seen in several videos.





Keep in mind, the http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/466.pdf document does adhere to sound physics. The one dimensional approximation is somewhat questionable, but if the supports throughout the entire horizontal cross section had collapsed in a simultaneous, or near simultaneous manner, this failure model for the WTC towers would be quite reasonable. The 'blasts' lower down in the tower COULD be the results of multiple story members buckling and causing flying debris. The result of a cascade failure as described in the previously mentioned PDF would have a parabolic velocity of collapse, likely indistinguishable from freefall through the thick smoke.

The fact that both structures both collapsed straight down throughout the entire height is definitely puzzling in any case however, and certainly requires a more detailed explanation than what is offered in this document.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Offlined33p
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121348 - 03/08/08 09:19 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:


QFR





again? really?

I would think you'd be embarrassed enough by now... shrug

I guess I'll just continue the conversation with those who are still cognitively motive...




QFR (quoted for retardation)


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121394 - 03/08/08 09:36 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Keep in mind, the http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/466.pdf document does adhere to sound physics. The one dimensional approximation is somewhat questionable, but if the supports throughout the entire horizontal cross section had collapsed in a simultaneous, or near simultaneous manner, this failure model for the WTC towers would be quite reasonable. The 'blasts' lower down in the tower COULD be the results of multiple story members buckling and causing flying debris. The result of a cascade failure as described in the previously mentioned PDF would have a parabolic velocity of collapse, likely indistinguishable from freefall through the thick smoke.




If the supports were not destroyed by explosion, they would offer resistance and slow the fall. The fact that they offered no resistance is a good indication that they were not there.

No building has ever "pancaked" before. And for three of them to collapse due to the pancake theory in the same day for the first time in history, that would be highly unusual. Explosives on the columns is a much more reasonable explanation.

Also, every major war this century has been started by a false flag operation. So if the war on terror was the only war this century that was not started by a false flag operation, that would also be highly unusual.


In addition, two reporters announced that WTC7 had collapsed before it actually did. It would be interesting to know where they got that information.

Also remember that Larry Silverstein who owns all three buildings admitted on national television that he ordered WTC7 to be demolished.

"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

"pull" is industry jargon for demolishing a building with explosives.

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Offlineshroomchick
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121420 - 03/08/08 09:48 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

As I read your writing, d33p, I am reminded of the saying,

'Think for yourself, or someone else will.'


...I don't understand why you choose to let the American government think for you.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8121425 - 03/08/08 09:49 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Yeah, I was just watching that same video.

I agree that the probability of being able to "pancake" a building with an airplane is significantly lower than the probability of being able to do so with demo charges- however in the case of the towers both options seem like they are still POSSIBLE.

As for WTC7... the failure mode pictorial offered on page 8 seems absurd, even if we make a large number of strange assumptions. Explosives could definitely offer an explanation for that particular collapse- I'm sure there are other possibilities as well, but I am yet to see them.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8121785 - 03/08/08 11:20 PM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

As for WTC7... the failure mode pictorial offered on page 8 seems absurd, even if we make a large number of strange assumptions. Explosives could definitely offer an explanation for that particular collapse- I'm sure there are other possibilities as well, but I am yet to see them.




The next most likely possibility is aliens.

Or perhaps it fell because it was getting old.

Or it could be that all the other buildings in the area were falling and it just wanted to fit in with the crowd.


In all seriousness, the people who planned and executed 9/11 are still at large, and it would be a good idea to bring them to justice so they don't do it again.

Many of them probably have security clearances.

It is amazing that the government spent $60 million to investigate Bill Clinton's penis and $1 million to investigate 9/11. Its all very political. If the people at the top had some inkling that not all the terrorists were foreign, that would explain a lot.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8221851 - 03/31/08 09:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Phred]
    #8221883 - 03/31/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That may be your first post that I ever enjoyed.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinedark1313star
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8222181 - 03/31/08 10:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)




--------------------
when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro

what you're feeling is premature enlightenment

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: dark1313star]
    #8222187 - 03/31/08 10:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #8222195 - 03/31/08 10:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well this thread has become a laugh parade.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflinePhred
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: Phred]
    #8222409 - 03/31/08 11:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Talking to you is like talking to a goat!"

Heh.





Phred


--------------------

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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8222761 - 04/01/08 12:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:

Also remember that Larry Silverstein who owns all three buildings admitted on national television that he ordered WTC7 to be demolished.

"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

"pull" is industry jargon for demolishing a building with explosives.




You have no idea what you are talking about. I am quoting directly from "Dubunking 9/11 Myths" by Popular Mechanics (pages 57-58):

"Four demolition and engineering experts tell Popular Mechanics that pull is not slang for controlled demolition. 'I've never heard of it,' says John Magnusson of Magnusson Klemencic Associates.

Ron Doekll, retired president of Olshan Demolishing Company, says the same thing. Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc. adds that the only way he can imagine the term being used is in reference to a process where the legs of a structure are precut and attached to cables, and then large machines are used to literally pull the building to the ground. But he adds this is only done with radio towers and relatively small buildings. 'There is no way you could pull over a structures like the [WTC 7],' Loizeaux writes in an email to Popular Mechanics. 'The contractors removing the debris tried on several occasions to pull over sections of [World Trade Center buildings 5 and 6, both less than 10 stories tall] that were damaged by the fire and collapse. they couldn't even pull those over.'

Silverstein subsequently released a statement on September 5, 2005, saying his comments were misinterpreted. He says he was referring to his desire to pull a squadron of firefighters from the building. The statement read in part: 'Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building." Firefighters contacted by Popular Mechanics confirm that pull is a common firefighting term for removing personnel from a dangerous structure."


If you ask me anybody who believes these 9/11 conspiracies (or for that matter pretty much any conspiracy) is a fucking idiot because there is not one shred of evidence that supports any one of them. And no people, your guesses of how a building should fall do not count as evidence no matter how much you think that you know what you are talking about.

I have actually lost friends over this before. One former friend is 100% convinced that the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile despite the massive amount of evidence against that contention including hundreds of eye-witnesses. I showed him my copy of "Debunking 9/11 Myths" and he refused to even read it stating that if Popular Mechanics concluded that there was no 9/11 conspiracy that they must be in on it. How do you argue with someone who is so deluded that he believes every contrary piece of evidence must be part of the conspiracy? I refuse to be friends with people that are that ignorant.

Edited by dtugg (04/01/08 12:55 AM)

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Offlinemoosehead
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Re: the only one way to settle the 9/11 Consipiracy debate is to re-build the towers and crash 2 pla [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8222786 - 04/01/08 01:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

MOD, LOL

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