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WScott
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How would you integrate solar technology?
#8098799 - 03/03/08 05:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have had an interest in solar technology since I saw it used to power solar racers in a movie from the 90s (don't remember the name). Since then, observing how computers evolved, I knew it was only a matter of time before solar technology sprang up as well. Seems full utilization is almost around the corner (if not already here), but if the problem of energy and pollutants is by large measure reduced why isn't it more widely used? I think one reason is that if free energy was introduced, a major component of the infrastructure would disappear. Think of all the money that changes hands in the business of fossil fuels. Oil, gasoline, auto industry, etc. Lively hoods depend on the cycling of money. Looking at society, is there a way to introduce solar energy to the mainstream without greatly disrupting business as usual?
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: WScott]
#8099510 - 03/03/08 08:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Its still to expensive, only works when there is sun, and you cant power a home from the area that a home occupies. All of these may change in the future. Right now the most efficient way to get energy from solar is parabolic dishes heating an oil, not from photovoltaic cells. Of course parabolic dishes still require infrastructure.
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ApJunkie
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: DieCommie]
#8099549 - 03/03/08 09:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nah, that's not true anymore. I recently had an interesting discussion with a photovoltaic engineer from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, he has great optimisim for the future of solar power, but says that cost is certainly prohibitive. However, photovoltaic cells have far surpassed mirror dishes in efficiency after great strides in the area of silicon production. They can now taylor the growth of a crystal to include different layers for absorbing differing wavelengths, and can convert nearly 41% of availible light into energy. (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4803)
Also of interest; in an 18 hour period enough energy hits the surface of the earth from the sun equal to all the petroleum ever used.
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DieCommie


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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: ApJunkie]
#8099588 - 03/03/08 09:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Looks like these cells are more efficient with respect to the flux coming in not with respect to cost, right?
There will be more market share for solar in the future, thats for sure. But I dont think its a silver bullet like fusion would be.
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ApJunkie
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: DieCommie]
#8099731 - 03/03/08 09:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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well yes, cost wise they're absolutley awful.
They literally grow the silicon crystals in the same fashion we make drugs. They create the perfect environment with respect to temperature, pressure, ingredients etc, and can grow a solid crystal up to 3 feet in diameter, which they then cut into sheets.
Not an easy industry to get into, that's for sure
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: WScott]
#8100492 - 03/04/08 04:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> but if the problem of energy and pollutants is by large measure reduced why isn't it more widely used?
It is expensive to manufacture solar cells, both from a cost and pollution creation standpoint. Solar cells are fragile, requiring encapsulation to protect them, adding to the cost. You also need power diodes every few cells in case part of the array gets shaded (to prevent the entire array from dropping). You also need maximum power point trackers to maximize power output as the sun moves (by altering the apparent impedance seen by the array, not by moving the array). You have to have a large array to produce much power. You also need a battery bank to store the power generated for later use. All of this adds cost. The final nail in the coffin is the average lifetime of a solar array... in the twenty year range.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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ApJunkie
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Seuss]
#8100882 - 03/04/08 08:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: You have to have a large array to produce much power.
an area of less than 10 square miles under full sun could power the entire state of colorado indefintely.
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Diploid
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: ApJunkie]
#8100959 - 03/04/08 09:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've said this before that the limiting factor on solar energy is building economies of scale. It will take a power company to commit to buying the 10 square miles of land and put in billions of dollars into the infrastructure before solar takes off.
Putting solar on a single house often costs more than the house, but plugging a house into a solar utility would share costs and be practical.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: ApJunkie]
#8102772 - 03/04/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> an area of less than 10 square miles under full sun could power the entire state of colorado indefintely.
At a cost of around a hundred dollars per square foot (on the low end). Thats only 3 billion dollars every twenty years and assumes that power demands don't increase. You are also going to have losses converting low voltage DC into high voltage AC for powerline transmission along with powerline losses; something most usage calculations ignore.
> and put in billions of dollars into the infrastructure before solar takes off.
Literally, billions of dollars. Can you imagine maintaining ten square miles of high voltage DC that cannot be turned off (unless you work at night)? The "little" array that I used to play with would put out around 100V DC at 15A during solar noon. Grab that by mistake and all your problems go away forever.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Annom
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: WScott]
#8104653 - 03/05/08 02:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Parabolic troughs solar power plants are the best(cheapest) option at the moment. Here is a large field (160MW). Last time I checked they were commercially viable.
View Larger Map

The same concept can also be used with stirling engines: http://www.stirlingenergy.com/photos/photo/SES1637x1272.jpg (rendered concept pic) http://www.stirlingenergy.com/
Cost of solar cells have to go down to compete with coal power. This article claims a 80% reduction in cost by printing cells. These kind of things are needed for cheap solar cell energy.
There was an article in Scientific American about a large solar power plan a few months ago: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan&page=1
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Annom]
#8104745 - 03/05/08 04:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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> This article claims a 80% reduction in cost by printing cells.
I haven't read the article yet, but I suspect they are producing amorphous silicon arrays with an efficiency in the 6% range (compared to ~15% for the higher end terrestrial grade silicon solar cells).
Lets see, 20% of $3,000,000,000 is $600,000,000, but we need three times as many panels to make up for the loss in efficiency, so our total goes up to almost two billion. By tripling the size, we reduce the material cost of the cells by ~30%. Hard to say how much more the larger size array would cost to build and maintain.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Annom
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Seuss]
#8104820 - 03/05/08 04:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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They use copper indium gallium diselenide, but indeed with an efficiency of 6%.
The company, Nanosolar, claims it would be possible to create a $2-per-watt system. That's too optimistic, but they may be able to create commercial solar power.
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ApJunkie
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Annom]
#8105317 - 03/05/08 09:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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upper range solar cells have been above 20% efficiency for years now. 25% is not out of the question, and 40% efficiency has been done, but is not economically viable.
6% is a damn joke.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: ApJunkie]
#8105845 - 03/05/08 11:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would integrate solar technology the way the this Spanish company is. Namely, by building a 280-megawatt plant in the middle of Arizona.
Clicky
I am not as familiar with the science as some of our experts here, but I'd love for one of them to tell me why this company is going through w/ this if solar power is so non-viable...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
Edited by Madtowntripper (03/05/08 12:04 PM)
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Annom
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8105973 - 03/05/08 12:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
but I'd love for one of them to tell me why this company is going through w/ this if solar power is so non-viable...
They use concentrating solar power, not solar cells, see my previous post.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Annom]
#8106034 - 03/05/08 12:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I saw yours.
It's still solar power, whether concentrated or not. I don't see how the failure of solar cells to be a viable energy producer impacts the viability of this technology.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Annom
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8106240 - 03/05/08 01:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't see how the failure of solar cells to be a viable energy producer impacts the viability of this technology.
I don't think it does.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8107083 - 03/05/08 05:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The company thats is buying that power, APS, has a solar research facility right by my house (near ASU)
Anyway, like Annom said, it is viable. But not as a replacement for the bulk of electricity generated. Its more of a supplement, like natural gas plants supplement nuclear here in the summer.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: How would you integrate solar technology? [Re: DieCommie]
#8108790 - 03/05/08 10:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think any one plant is going to be a replacement for the entire fossil-fuel power grid. But 280 megawatts is a decently sized power plant.
I live right by the biggest fossil fuel plant in Wisconsin, which puts out a little over 1,000 megawatts.
1/4 of that is a pretty substantial amount of power.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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