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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8093921 - 03/02/08 02:44 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

One even could hypothesize a way, that the soul isn't directly provable in the material realm, by suggesting a model like: The imprint from the soul to the body only is once at birth / or conception or whenever very early. After that, our existence and experiences only imprints back on our soul in one way, while we always are still representations of our conceived soul.
This model of connection from soul to body and body to soul would be almost impossible to prove in a pure material way.
Maybe one could prove it better with social science or spiritual science, including statistics, and bioscience.
And maybe2 one could only come to a conclusion if one would solve all those minor riddles before and connect their solutions to the big one.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8093938 - 03/02/08 02:49 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

A soul entering and leaving the body doesn't make sense. I covered this in-depth in a previous thread.

Even among those that believe, there is no consensus as to timing for very good reasons.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Veritas]
    #8093951 - 03/02/08 02:53 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
BTW: as a point of interest, the oft-repeated (and ironically misunderstood) quote "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," which you paraphrased earlier, is from Carl Sagan's Bullshit Detector Kit.  He used that question as an example of a logical fallacy.  It is truly ironic that so many people quote it or paraphrase it to prove their points. :grin:




I wasn't quoting or paraphrasing, as I've never read Carl Sagan (for shame, I know).  And while it can be used to perpetuate logical fallacies, my statement (lack of evidence for something is not evidence against it) is completely true.

For some real life example, Democritus proposed the idea of small indivisible particles making up reality, called atoms, long before there was any scientific evidence of atoms.  Thousands of years passed and we've accumulated evidence for the atom.  Now we know atoms can indeed be broken apart (though as far as we know quarks cannot).

Are you saying that atoms didn't exist prior to accumulating evidence of them?

Or another more recent example, Peter Mitchell's chemiosmotic hypothesis.  It contradicted everything that biochemists thought about ATP production back in the '50s (or was it '60s? whatever), and there was really no evidence for it, just a lack of evidence against it.  So some experiments were done, and it turns out that he was right: the proton motive force provided by the electron transport chain drives ATP production in the mitochondria.

Everything today accepted as a solid theory (in the scientific sense, where a theory is practically an established fact) was once a hypothesis with no evidence for it.

So yeah, I'm confused about how it's a fallacy.  Care to explain?

Edit: To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that the lack of evidence for something in any way validates the idea, but it certainly doesn't take it out of the realm of possibility either.

Edited by Entropymancer (03/02/08 03:01 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8094110 - 03/02/08 03:53 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

"A soul entering and leaving the body doesn't make sense."
Huh, of course it does.

"I covered this in-depth in a previous thread."
If it was that one 1 1/2 yearas ago, I think I participated with similar ideas.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8094146 - 03/02/08 04:03 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

A body being born and dying is part of a continuum. There is no beginning or entry point for a soul.

Tell me how it possibly makes sense.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8094268 - 03/02/08 04:38 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Just by regarding the body as kind of a vehicle for something, which is part of something greater than our material 'universe'.
By greater, I mean, 'our' provable universe is only a part of that, while the so called soul is a regular inhabitant of the greater one.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8094571 - 03/02/08 06:04 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
Lack of evidence for something is not evidence against it.




Come on, no one can explain to me why this is a fallacy? I'm honestly curious, I've turned it over in my head and can't punch any holes in it. It just seems like a simple statement of fact.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8094603 - 03/02/08 06:14 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I think you can answer it yourself.

What would you consider evidence for the non-existence of BigFoot?


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8094615 - 03/02/08 06:17 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

The fact that numerous expeditions to reported locations where Yeti have been sighted have turned up nothing, even with modern thermal imaging makes me tend to think BigFoot doesn't exist. But I wouldn't go so far as to say it proves it by a long shot.

What would you consider evidence that the soul is not independent of the body?

And what about atoms? Or the chemiosmotic hypothesis? Or any other hypothesis that at some point had no evidence supporting it?

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8094632 - 03/02/08 06:21 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Keep inserting the word proof where it was not used. Only about the fifth time this thread. :rolleyes:

Apprently you are not interested in a real conversation.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8094741 - 03/02/08 06:48 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Mod Edit: no flaming in this forum. If you do it again, you will be banned.

Please read the rules:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4526664#Post4526664

Edited by Diploid (03/02/08 07:09 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8094852 - 03/02/08 07:08 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

As I said, you cannot prove a negative. There is always the possibility, no matter how remote, that we have overlooked the existence of something. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the claimant. If you say that something exists, you need to provide evidence to support your assertion.

The Sagan quote "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" illustrates the logical fallacy known as "appeal to ignorance." Sagan

Quote:

Appeal to Ignorance
An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.



Fallacy Files

What OC was arguing is not that he has PROOF of the non-existence of a soul/spirit, but that the facts in evidence render the existence of a soul/spirit an unlikely proposition.

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OfflineNeanderthal
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8094880 - 03/02/08 07:13 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's use *gasp* logic here, shall we?

If I hit you on the head with a rock using mild force, you see stars and are momentarily dazed. Awareness drops from 10 to 7.

If I hit you on the head with a rock using moderate force, you see stunned. Awareness drops from 10 to 4.

If I hit you on the head with a rock using heavy force, you lose consciousness. Awareness drops from a 10 to 1.

If I hit you on the head with a rock using lethal force, you lose consciousness and die. Awareness drops to 0.

This is a progressive curve that follows a mathematical and biological model. There is no evidence whatsoever that awareness increases with death. Awareness is linked directly to brain function and neuronal health.

Repeat the above scenario with an aging brain where seniors become more forgetful and less aware of their surroundings. This model perfectly matches an accumulated lifetime of neuronal death, reduction in neurotransmitters and cellular decay.




Brilliant. As Thomas Jefferson lucidly stated, "To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise."


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"I will give you consciousness expansion that will turn your blood to ice water." -- Terence McKenna

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Neanderthal]
    #8094908 - 03/02/08 07:18 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

We gorillas must stick together. Good quote! :thumbup:


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8094938 - 03/02/08 07:26 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Oops I included a slight bit o' libel (my bad).... but he're what I was saying minus that bit:

Quote:

Entropymancer said:

Obviously this is why I'm trying to figure out what's fallacious about my assertion. :rolleyes:  If you know, I'd appreciate an explanation.  If not, don't act like I ought to.

Forget I said proove; I still don't understand what's wrong with the assertion.

Was the lack of evidence for the atom evidence against it prior to Avogadro and Dalton?

Was the lack of evidence for the chemiosmotic hypothesis evidence against it until Peter Mitchel came along?



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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Veritas]
    #8094957 - 03/02/08 07:31 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
As I said, you cannot prove a negative.  There is always the possibility, no matter how remote, that we have overlooked the existence of something.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on the claimant.  If you say that something exists, you need to provide evidence to support your assertion.




Ah, I think I understand what y'all are saying now.

So my statement, while technically true, apparently requires that I prove whatever I'm saying may or may not be true... bizarre.

I'm not saying the soul exists, or is immaterial, or whatever; just pointing out that it's healthy to keep an open mind.

Thanks for explaining. :thumbup:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8094977 - 03/02/08 07:37 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

When there is no evidence of the existence of something, then there is no evidence.  That's it, that's all there is to it.  Until the scientific evidence was gathered to support the theories you used as examples, there was no evidence either way.  One could accurately have stated "it seems unlikely that such things exist, as there is no evidence of them."

Scientific exploration attempts to explain certain observable phenomenon through the application of the scientific method.  The problem with the hypothesis that humans have an immaterial, eternal soul is that it cannot be tested.  Therefore, it remains an idea of interest to some, but a scientifically irrelevant topic.  :shrug:

One might as well ask "are there invisible pixies dancing on my nose right now"?  :lol:

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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Veritas]
    #8094985 - 03/02/08 07:39 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

To which I'd reply, "It's unlikely, but I'm not going to absolutely discount the possiblity either... I could probably see them after a toke of DMT.":smirk:

Edit: I guess maybe my attitude that spiritual/mystical things are essentially unproveable isn't exactly an asset in this forum.

Edited by Entropymancer (03/02/08 07:40 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8095006 - 03/02/08 07:43 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

There are quite a few of us here who think that mystical things are unproveable.  :shrug:  Some take this to mean that they must have faith, and some take it to mean that it is pointless to waste their time on what may be fantasies and wishful thinking.

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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: soul, spirit... does it exist? [Re: Veritas]
    #8095022 - 03/02/08 07:47 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
There are quite a few of us here who think that mystical things are unproveable.  :shrug: 




Well I sure got my throat jumped down pretty good just for saying so.

:peace:

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