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Invisiblevonhumboldt
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Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 377
a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr.
    #8081802 - 02/28/08 02:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-curry/bill-buckley_b_88847.html

Quote:


Bill Buckley

Posted February 28, 2008 | 12:27 AM (EST)

Bill Buckley died Wednesday at 82 at his home in Connecticut. He was the most influential public intellectual of his generation in this country, maybe the world.

More than anyone, even Goldwater or Reagan, he was the father of modern conservatism, which was as much an intellectual as a political movement from 1955, when he founded the National Review, to 2000 when, under Bush and DeLay, the movement foundered in a sea of law breaking, war mongering and greed.

I got to know Buckley a little in the 1990s, debating him on his show, Firing Line. The show, the longest running with a single host in TV history, was civil, substantive and high minded; in short, the opposite of everything political talk shows have since become.

Off camera he was witty and articulate and also gracious and warm. A couple of years after the show went off the air I was running for Governor of Connecticut and bumped into him. He put his hand gently on my arm and said, softly, "I will vote against you with the deepest affection."

Buckley evolved over time from one who insisted the constitution forbade us from ending segregation, to one who supported civil rights laws and a national holiday for Martin Luther King.
But the underlying tenets of his thought, grounded in his Roman Catholicism and equally fervent beliefs in free republics and free markets, remained consistent.

It didn't always keep him close to the leaders of his party or of the movement he had led. On the National Review website, Buckley identified himself as a "libertarian conservative," a designation that separated him, ever so slightly, from the excesses of his crowd.

He saw Viet Nam as a mistake and parted company with Bush over Iraq. He sailed to international waters to try marijuana before calling for legalization. His lovely book Nearer My God reveals a real spirituality, as opposed to the hateful, hypocritical swill peddled as religion by his party. Sam Tanenhaus, author of a much anticipated biography, says Buckley couldn't bear Ann Coulter.

I first met Buckley a decade before our Firing Line encounters at a reception for an ailing Mike Harrington, socialist and author of 'The Other America.' Harrington truly regarded Buckley as a friend. So did John Kenneth Galbraith. So did most liberals Buckley knew.

Buckley loved debate. Unlike today's cowardly conservatives, he debated the best minds he could entice on to a stage. He never used his opponents as props or punch lines for fixed fights. He liked them. Loving his own ideas, not just hating theirs, left room for liking them.

What a long sad fall from Bill Buckley to Bill O' Reilly. I'm not part of the crowd that says if we can just get along everything will be alright. But I am part of the crowd that thinks learning to get along better will help.

To get out of Iraq or into a new health care system will require some hard fighting, but also some hard thinking and most of all reasoned arguments to persuade, if not the opposition, certainly the public.

If you want to see how far we are from having that kind of debate, watch an old episode of Firing Line and then watch a random hour of live cable television. That's how far.

Bill Buckley raised an army against a liberal establishment. Like Barry Goldwater, he often dissented in later years from a conservative establishment he helped create.

The political debate Buckley launched is over, many of its old categories defunct. To shape a new debate we'll need at least a few people with the intellect, humanity, civility and great good humor of Bill Buckley. I hope we find them.




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Offlineblackegg
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8081835 - 02/28/08 02:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wowzer.
I'll have to pick up his book.
I didn't know he was that thoughtful...


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison

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OfflinePhred
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8082006 - 02/28/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Very well said.

Bill Buckley was a true giant. Intelligent, articulate, gracious... the list goes on. He will be missed.




Phred


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Phred]
    #8083628 - 02/28/08 09:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I would have to agree with Phred.

And I am pleasantly surprised to see this thread here in the midst of the Silly Season AKA "election year".

Mr. Buckley really stands apart in an era of cheap politics where rumor and innuendo masquerade as intelligent debate. This man was eloquent, erudite and civil.

In short, he was a gentleman. He showed class. He helped provide the (yes) intellectual underpinnings of modern day conservatism. Lately that movement has degenerated into the party of Empire, pure power devoid of reason.

Both statesman and scholar have been replaced by chest-thumping primates.



As a former subscriber to the National Review, the magazine he founded, I will particularly miss Mr. Buckley. I am saddened by what has become of the movement he helped found.

He was an enlightened conservative who favored decriminlization of marijuana. He famously smoked pot in a boat just inside international waters because he was curious and didn't want to break the law. I mean, come on, who goes to those lengths in order to retain fidelity to their belief system?!

See ya, WFB.

Say hello to Blackford Oakes for me.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zorbman]
    #8083959 - 02/28/08 10:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I admit to not being terribly familiar with Buckley before his demise the other day. I find it quite enough of a punishment to have to deal with Conservatives today that I have no interest in dealing with Conservatives of the past.

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8084043 - 02/28/08 10:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:sad: It's the end of an era.

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8084208 - 02/28/08 11:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.




Well, it's like I said earlier..They have degenerated into the party of Empire, Pure Power devoid of reason. Like any movement, their life cycle is fairly predictable. There are the years of wandering in the wilderness (the Sixties), an idealogical purification process led by intellectuals such as WFB which provided a firm foundation to build upon, followed by tremendous success (the Reagan era) then came the raw exercise of primate power and intimidation of the Bush administration (overplaying your hand) which sowed the seeds of their own destruction.

For conservatives, power has become not the means to an end but the end itself. They lust for total control. The world is their oyster. They have forgotten their heroic origins and only give lip service to the memories of their founders. Since they are intellectually bankrupt, their only hope of holding onto power lies in sowing deception and fear. Raw animal power. So they are rejected by the people and return to the wilderness from whence they came to begin the process all over again..

Right now they have come to the crossroads and must ask themselves the question: In order to enforce Empire are you going to bankrupt our country both morally and financially through your latest war with torture and debt growth or will you will voluntarily relinquish Empire and revert to a more managable zone of control?

To them this feels like defeat and they will bring the world to the brink of disaster to maintain their delusionary sense of self-righteousness and control.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinekenneld
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zorbman]
    #8086095 - 02/29/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

buckley on drug legalization:

http://www.archive.org/details/openmind_ep181

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8086549 - 02/29/08 03:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"I will vote against you with the deepest affection."

haha


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8089387 - 03/01/08 11:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I admit to not being terribly familiar with Buckley before his demise the other day. I find it quite enough of a punishment to have to deal with Conservatives today that I have no interest in dealing with Conservatives of the past.

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.




He was nicer than us because he could afford to be. The rest of us are infantrymen, we have to do the dirty work of clubbing the baby seals. He just had to buy the coats. He was a general.


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Invisiblevonhumboldt
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8089475 - 03/01/08 11:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

what does that even mean?

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8089476 - 03/01/08 11:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I admit to not being terribly familiar with Buckley before his demise the other day. I find it quite enough of a punishment to have to deal with Conservatives today that I have no interest in dealing with Conservatives of the past.

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.




He was nicer than us because he could afford to be. The rest of us are infantrymen, we have to do the dirty work of clubbing the baby seals. He just had to buy the coats. He was a general.




actually he was intellectual while the conservatives here are not, in fact no one is intellectual here. it's pretty much total crap but it is entertaining at least.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8089517 - 03/01/08 11:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What, in your mind, constitutes an intellectual? Try, just try, to say it on your own words.

In case you didn't notice, that was an example of mean infantry tactics. Bill would have been more subtle but you wouldn't have known you were being dissected. Is it a communication if the receiver is broken? I dunno, ask Noam. I'm leaning toward "no."


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8089696 - 03/01/08 12:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

intellectual - someone who relies on reason instead of rhetoric, emotion, or force to get their point across.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Invisiblevonhumboldt
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Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 377
Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8089706 - 03/01/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

basically, zappaisgod is saying that it is above him and his ilk to debate in a civil manner.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8089779 - 03/01/08 01:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Do you even know what rhetoric is? Emotion? FORCE?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8089795 - 03/01/08 01:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Civil? I'm as civil and more so than my opponents. I even insulted you civilly above. And subtly. You, on the other hand, tossed out a whiny insult worthy of a High School sophomore.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8090113 - 03/01/08 02:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

we have to do the dirty work of clubbing the baby seals.



I knew you were into that sorta thing! Thanks for confirming it. :lol:

...I'm calling PETA.:awesome:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8090212 - 03/01/08 03:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I would love to have one of those assholes bust a move on me. It would make a baby seal look lucky.


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Invisiblevonhumboldt
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8090567 - 03/01/08 04:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Civil? I'm as civil and more so than my opponents. I even insulted you civilly above. And subtly. You, on the other hand, tossed out a whiny insult worthy of a High School sophomore.




I did not direct an insult toward you. If you were so offended, I do apologize. I merely referenced what you said earlier; it is above you and your ilk to debate in a civil manner as you're just a lowly infantryman and civil debate is for those who are better and of a higher order than you. They're your words.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8090599 - 03/01/08 04:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The idea that he would suggest as much is pretty amusing because all it represents is a movement's inability to live up to the high standard that this man set, not some glorious army. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblevonhumboldt
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8090871 - 03/01/08 05:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8091431 - 03/01/08 08:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

William Buckley had the luxury of making arguments for educated intelligent people exclusively. I do not have that luxury. I often have to make my arguments to baby seals.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8091464 - 03/01/08 08:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Why must you assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot?


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8093552 - 03/02/08 12:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

because unlike buckley zappa has no sense of political decency, a key conservative value.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8094309 - 03/02/08 04:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
Why must you assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot?




Isn't it obvious?

Actually I figure that they are either stupid or have some self-interest in mind. Nobody who puts their hand out surprises me and if they can scam a bunch of politicians into buying their vote with handouts then they aren't so stupid. Except in the long term after they realize they have killed the golden goose.

Quote:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."





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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8094313 - 03/02/08 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Democracy is the worst form of government in the World, except for all of the others that have been tried.

- Winston Fucking Churchill




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8094322 - 03/02/08 04:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
because unlike buckley zappa has no sense of political decency, a key conservative value.




I might be a good bit more decent if it wasn't a home invasion I was fighting off. And make no mistake it is a home invasion. Buckley had so much wealth he did it for purely humanitarian reasons. I'm fighting for my life. Well, property anyway.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8094414 - 03/02/08 05:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I might be a good bit more decent if it wasn't a home invasion I was fighting off. And make no mistake it is a home invasion. Buckley had so much wealth he did it for purely humanitarian reasons. I'm fighting for my life. Well, property anyway.



And who exactly are these evil forces conspiring to invade your home and steal your livelihood? Sounds a bit paranoid to me. Kinda reminds me of Ash from Evil Dead battling back the forces of the undead from his shack in the woods.



Your mentality is a perfect example of where fear-based, divisive politics have gotten us. I can tell you one thing for sure though- being nasty to a bunch of pinkos on an internet message board wont save your home.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8094503 - 03/02/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."




I think you see this happening more in history with direct democracies such as Ancient Greece rather than representative democracies such as the US. Greece was democracy to the point of chaos! Demagogues such as Pericles convinced an easily swayed democracy to fight wars of aggression (i.e. The Peloponnesian Wars) and to throw their lot behind whichever politician tossed the most drachmas at them.

In the US' case I see democracy being threatened more by cutthroat multinational corporations than the government's loose fiscal policy and handouts.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8094772 - 03/02/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The home invaders are the socialists who want to tax me at 80% again. You know who you are. Fucking barbarians.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8094898 - 03/02/08 07:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The home invaders are the socialists who want to tax me at 80% again. You know who you are. Fucking barbarians.



Republicans are hardly a more suitable alternative. You still get taxed by those fuckers and it comes in the form of inflation/"the invisible tax" caused by their fiscal irresponsibility (or deficit spending as they like to call it) and constant need to print more money. Notice prices going up in the past few years how wages haven't risen proportionally?

I've got news for you, man. It's not just the socialists that are trying to fuck you...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8094932 - 03/02/08 07:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, but they're the only ones doing it by gummint. I'll be the judge of who I think is the greater threat to me, thank you. I don't need anyone to tell me what is in my interest, I can do that quite well my self. (Another thing socialists want to take away from me, my own risk assessment and interest determination).


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8094971 - 03/02/08 07:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was just pointing out an obvious fact. I'm not a socialist and I'm not trying to tell you what to think, I'm just trying to introduce a sense of perspective to this conversation.

I thought we come here to put our ideas forward, not to hide behind paranoid fantasies and attack all of those that don't live inside our carefully constructed house of cards. Man, do you find open, honest debate threatening or something?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8095012 - 03/02/08 07:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't see any debate there. Only I can say what is in my interest and it is definitely not in my interest to go back to pre-Reagan taxation, which is what all the vilification of the wealthy and successful by the two Democrat commies points toward. I'll take my chances with corporations, thank you.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8095018 - 03/02/08 07:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Best of luck.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8096606 - 03/03/08 08:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
Best of luck.




:rofl2:

The multinational corporations surely do have the interest of the American people at heart, ya know? :smirk:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8097303 - 03/03/08 12:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, the government can still function with an enslaved and impoverished population.

Those huge and evil corporations cannot.

I'm not stumping for either one, understand. But to say one is inherently less bad than the other one is silly.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8097353 - 03/03/08 12:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The government is a tool of the people, so I recognize a distinction there. As long as the people are still represented in government, then I don't see a problem.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8097372 - 03/03/08 12:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I fear the government more than I fear Procter & Gamble.

The latter would at least need a fiscally sound reason for creating a death ray or throwing millions of people in concentration camps.

The former would have no problems taking a loss to do it, if it suited their purposes.

I'm not a tin-foil hat loonie, I don't think these things are actually happening. I just know which side of this debate my comfort level lies on.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8097453 - 03/03/08 12:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Meh, both are working in collusion anyways. :shrug: :hehehe:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8097456 - 03/03/08 12:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No argument whatsoever.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8099294 - 03/03/08 07:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

buckley was at least an intelligent conservative...much like ron paul

not in league with today's criminals

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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #8101625 - 03/04/08 01:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

William F. Buckley Jr. should burn in Hell. I am surprised by the swooning and fawning over this buffoon. He was articulate, but what did he articulate?

Quote:

Steven L. Bachman said:
The recent passing of William F. Buckley, Jr. brought the expected torrent of praise-in-memoriam; exalting Buckley as the Intellectual Godfather of Modern Conservatism, and crediting him with providing the ideological ammunition for a generation of "conservative" thinkers, pundits, and politicians. Indeed, if there is one thing that Bill Buckley deserves great credit for, it is for leading the way in laying the intellectual foundations for the transitional road from the Old Right philosphical principles of individualism, to the overt and fawning collectivist statism of the modern-day conservative movement.

[...]

William F. Buckley clearly died having successfully completed his mission. Today, the conservative movement has completely abandoned all ties to it's anti-statist roots. To listen to Buckley's most prominent successors -- Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Kristol, or Bill Cunningham -- you will not hear any substantive criticism of the workings of the welfare-warfare state. You will not hear any calls for the restoration of private property rights. You will not hear any calls for the abolition of the oppressive and tyrannical income tax -- indeed, every call for reductions in tax rates is predicated on the supply-sider argument that lower taxes serve to increase government revenue; hardly a convincing stance for someone who claims to advocate "limited government." And you certainly will not hear any calls for abolishing the massive macro-economic central planning, price-fixing, engine of inflation and regressive wealth redistribution called the Federal Reserve System. Indeed it's as if the Fed has been deemed sacrosanct, and any criticism leveled towards it may be ham-handedly cast aside as paranoid "conspiracy theory."

In short, you will not hear any truly substantive calls for decreasing the size, scope, and power of government from the gatekeepers of today's "conservative" movement. William F. Buckley, you may rest in satisfied Peace.




Buckley advocated a "totalitarian bureaucracy within our shores" to ward off foreign threats. I'm glad he's dead, and I wish the GOP he helped create would perish alongside him.


--------------------
"I will give you consciousness expansion that will turn your blood to ice water." -- Terence McKenna

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Neanderthal]
    #8102338 - 03/04/08 05:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"A totalitarian bureaucracy"
What do you think the military is?

More Paulist bilge.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #8102364 - 03/04/08 05:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)






Anyone notice the only time Cheney ever seems to smile is when contemplating violence? :lol:

Too bad he is incompetant at both firing rifles and overseeing wars.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Neanderthal]
    #8102385 - 03/04/08 05:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So your opinion of a man's life rests upon one article written about him?

Be honest. How much do you really know about WFB?

Do you know he had significant disagreements with the modern conservative movement?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineNeanderthal
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zorbman]
    #8102433 - 03/04/08 05:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
So your opinion of a man's life rests upon one article written about him?




No. That's an outlandish question, truly.

Quote:

zorbman said:
Do you know he had significant disagreements with the modern conservative movement?




Not on any issues that matter. His proto-fascist stirrings go back decades--i.e., the editor of National Review (Frank Meyer) once criticized the unconstitutional acts of Abraham Lincoln, but guess who came to Dishonest Abe's defense? And now Lincoln is one of the most revered icons among neocons who fervently push their imperial foreign policy.


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"I will give you consciousness expansion that will turn your blood to ice water." -- Terence McKenna

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Neanderthal]
    #8102524 - 03/04/08 05:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

most Americans love Lincoln and it isn't because the national review said anything to change American public opinion on the issue either.

there is nothing inherently wrong with conservative ideals, especially when they are well articulated via WFB and other intellectual conservatives.

the problem comes when you insert bought out politicians with no brains ie 'W' who have a vice president who is the former ceo of a massive energy and defense contractor conglomeration and the American public are too stupid to see through the facade so they elect the same two leeches twice. bush continues to plunge our country into trillions of dollars worth of debt to the bewilderment of our citizenry who show no signs of waking up any time soon.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Neanderthal]
    #8102685 - 03/04/08 06:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Marijuana prohibition has done far more harm to far more people than marijuana ever could."

"One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed -- different plans have to be made. And the kernel here is the acknowledgement of defeat." -Buckley on Bush's Iraq War.

-WFB


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8103104 - 03/04/08 07:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
there is nothing inherently wrong with conservative ideals, especially when they are well articulated via WFB and other intellectual conservatives.




My specific complaint against Buckley is that he was principally responsible for assassinating the ideals of the Old Right and was largely supportive of the policies that undergird neoconservatism.

A person that more articulately--and consistently--argued for conservative principles was Frank Chodorov.

Being well-spoken and aligned to "conservatism" isn't automatically redeeming (cf. Bill Kristol).


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"I will give you consciousness expansion that will turn your blood to ice water." -- Terence McKenna

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8141719 - 03/13/08 02:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
Why must you assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot?




Isn't it obvious?

Actually I figure that they are either stupid or have some self-interest in mind. Nobody who puts their hand out surprises me and if they can scam a bunch of politicians into buying their vote with handouts then they aren't so stupid. Except in the long term after they realize they have killed the golden goose.

Quote:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."








by the way, I'm glad you made this post since I oft want to use this quote
but can never find it when most necessary.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: afoaf]
    #8141946 - 03/13/08 03:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have it bookmarked. Now you can too.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1046973/posts


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8143480 - 03/13/08 08:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

there's got to be something else I can bookmark...

Professor Olson adds, "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was (mostly) the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this greatcountry. Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: afoaf]
    #8143832 - 03/13/08 09:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

One of many choice quotes from that source.

I myself am partial to...

Quote:


Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won: by Gore, 13.2; by Bush, 2.1.




As if there is some deeply hidden meaning to be found in that fact.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8147944 - 03/14/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

niggers kill lots of whites on their way to vote for gore.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: afoaf]
    #8148043 - 03/14/08 11:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Did we need a study to find that out?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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