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Invisiblevonhumboldt
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Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 377
a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr.
    #8081802 - 02/28/08 02:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-curry/bill-buckley_b_88847.html

Quote:


Bill Buckley

Posted February 28, 2008 | 12:27 AM (EST)

Bill Buckley died Wednesday at 82 at his home in Connecticut. He was the most influential public intellectual of his generation in this country, maybe the world.

More than anyone, even Goldwater or Reagan, he was the father of modern conservatism, which was as much an intellectual as a political movement from 1955, when he founded the National Review, to 2000 when, under Bush and DeLay, the movement foundered in a sea of law breaking, war mongering and greed.

I got to know Buckley a little in the 1990s, debating him on his show, Firing Line. The show, the longest running with a single host in TV history, was civil, substantive and high minded; in short, the opposite of everything political talk shows have since become.

Off camera he was witty and articulate and also gracious and warm. A couple of years after the show went off the air I was running for Governor of Connecticut and bumped into him. He put his hand gently on my arm and said, softly, "I will vote against you with the deepest affection."

Buckley evolved over time from one who insisted the constitution forbade us from ending segregation, to one who supported civil rights laws and a national holiday for Martin Luther King.
But the underlying tenets of his thought, grounded in his Roman Catholicism and equally fervent beliefs in free republics and free markets, remained consistent.

It didn't always keep him close to the leaders of his party or of the movement he had led. On the National Review website, Buckley identified himself as a "libertarian conservative," a designation that separated him, ever so slightly, from the excesses of his crowd.

He saw Viet Nam as a mistake and parted company with Bush over Iraq. He sailed to international waters to try marijuana before calling for legalization. His lovely book Nearer My God reveals a real spirituality, as opposed to the hateful, hypocritical swill peddled as religion by his party. Sam Tanenhaus, author of a much anticipated biography, says Buckley couldn't bear Ann Coulter.

I first met Buckley a decade before our Firing Line encounters at a reception for an ailing Mike Harrington, socialist and author of 'The Other America.' Harrington truly regarded Buckley as a friend. So did John Kenneth Galbraith. So did most liberals Buckley knew.

Buckley loved debate. Unlike today's cowardly conservatives, he debated the best minds he could entice on to a stage. He never used his opponents as props or punch lines for fixed fights. He liked them. Loving his own ideas, not just hating theirs, left room for liking them.

What a long sad fall from Bill Buckley to Bill O' Reilly. I'm not part of the crowd that says if we can just get along everything will be alright. But I am part of the crowd that thinks learning to get along better will help.

To get out of Iraq or into a new health care system will require some hard fighting, but also some hard thinking and most of all reasoned arguments to persuade, if not the opposition, certainly the public.

If you want to see how far we are from having that kind of debate, watch an old episode of Firing Line and then watch a random hour of live cable television. That's how far.

Bill Buckley raised an army against a liberal establishment. Like Barry Goldwater, he often dissented in later years from a conservative establishment he helped create.

The political debate Buckley launched is over, many of its old categories defunct. To shape a new debate we'll need at least a few people with the intellect, humanity, civility and great good humor of Bill Buckley. I hope we find them.




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Offlineblackegg
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8081835 - 02/28/08 02:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wowzer.
I'll have to pick up his book.
I didn't know he was that thoughtful...


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison

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OfflinePhred
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8082006 - 02/28/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Very well said.

Bill Buckley was a true giant. Intelligent, articulate, gracious... the list goes on. He will be missed.




Phred


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Invisiblezorbman
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Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Phred]
    #8083628 - 02/28/08 09:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I would have to agree with Phred.

And I am pleasantly surprised to see this thread here in the midst of the Silly Season AKA "election year".

Mr. Buckley really stands apart in an era of cheap politics where rumor and innuendo masquerade as intelligent debate. This man was eloquent, erudite and civil.

In short, he was a gentleman. He showed class. He helped provide the (yes) intellectual underpinnings of modern day conservatism. Lately that movement has degenerated into the party of Empire, pure power devoid of reason.

Both statesman and scholar have been replaced by chest-thumping primates.



As a former subscriber to the National Review, the magazine he founded, I will particularly miss Mr. Buckley. I am saddened by what has become of the movement he helped found.

He was an enlightened conservative who favored decriminlization of marijuana. He famously smoked pot in a boat just inside international waters because he was curious and didn't want to break the law. I mean, come on, who goes to those lengths in order to retain fidelity to their belief system?!

See ya, WFB.

Say hello to Blackford Oakes for me.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zorbman]
    #8083959 - 02/28/08 10:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I admit to not being terribly familiar with Buckley before his demise the other day. I find it quite enough of a punishment to have to deal with Conservatives today that I have no interest in dealing with Conservatives of the past.

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/16/03
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8084043 - 02/28/08 10:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:sad: It's the end of an era.

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8084208 - 02/28/08 11:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.




Well, it's like I said earlier..They have degenerated into the party of Empire, Pure Power devoid of reason. Like any movement, their life cycle is fairly predictable. There are the years of wandering in the wilderness (the Sixties), an idealogical purification process led by intellectuals such as WFB which provided a firm foundation to build upon, followed by tremendous success (the Reagan era) then came the raw exercise of primate power and intimidation of the Bush administration (overplaying your hand) which sowed the seeds of their own destruction.

For conservatives, power has become not the means to an end but the end itself. They lust for total control. The world is their oyster. They have forgotten their heroic origins and only give lip service to the memories of their founders. Since they are intellectually bankrupt, their only hope of holding onto power lies in sowing deception and fear. Raw animal power. So they are rejected by the people and return to the wilderness from whence they came to begin the process all over again..

Right now they have come to the crossroads and must ask themselves the question: In order to enforce Empire are you going to bankrupt our country both morally and financially through your latest war with torture and debt growth or will you will voluntarily relinquish Empire and revert to a more managable zone of control?

To them this feels like defeat and they will bring the world to the brink of disaster to maintain their delusionary sense of self-righteousness and control.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinekenneld
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Registered: 11/07/07
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zorbman]
    #8086095 - 02/29/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

buckley on drug legalization:

http://www.archive.org/details/openmind_ep181

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8086549 - 02/29/08 03:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"I will vote against you with the deepest affection."

haha


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8089387 - 03/01/08 11:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I admit to not being terribly familiar with Buckley before his demise the other day. I find it quite enough of a punishment to have to deal with Conservatives today that I have no interest in dealing with Conservatives of the past.

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.




He was nicer than us because he could afford to be. The rest of us are infantrymen, we have to do the dirty work of clubbing the baby seals. He just had to buy the coats. He was a general.


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Invisiblevonhumboldt
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Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 377
Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8089475 - 03/01/08 11:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

what does that even mean?

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8089476 - 03/01/08 11:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I admit to not being terribly familiar with Buckley before his demise the other day. I find it quite enough of a punishment to have to deal with Conservatives today that I have no interest in dealing with Conservatives of the past.

But having done a fair amount of reading about him since then and finding almost all of it positive, I am left to wonder why the "Conservatives" of today are so unlike Mr. Buckley, their erstwhile role model.




He was nicer than us because he could afford to be. The rest of us are infantrymen, we have to do the dirty work of clubbing the baby seals. He just had to buy the coats. He was a general.




actually he was intellectual while the conservatives here are not, in fact no one is intellectual here. it's pretty much total crap but it is entertaining at least.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8089517 - 03/01/08 11:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What, in your mind, constitutes an intellectual? Try, just try, to say it on your own words.

In case you didn't notice, that was an example of mean infantry tactics. Bill would have been more subtle but you wouldn't have known you were being dissected. Is it a communication if the receiver is broken? I dunno, ask Noam. I'm leaning toward "no."


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
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Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8089696 - 03/01/08 12:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

intellectual - someone who relies on reason instead of rhetoric, emotion, or force to get their point across.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Invisiblevonhumboldt
Stranger
Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 377
Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8089706 - 03/01/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

basically, zappaisgod is saying that it is above him and his ilk to debate in a civil manner.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8089779 - 03/01/08 01:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Do you even know what rhetoric is? Emotion? FORCE?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: vonhumboldt]
    #8089795 - 03/01/08 01:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Civil? I'm as civil and more so than my opponents. I even insulted you civilly above. And subtly. You, on the other hand, tossed out a whiny insult worthy of a High School sophomore.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8090113 - 03/01/08 02:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

we have to do the dirty work of clubbing the baby seals.



I knew you were into that sorta thing! Thanks for confirming it. :lol:

...I'm calling PETA.:awesome:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8090212 - 03/01/08 03:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I would love to have one of those assholes bust a move on me. It would make a baby seal look lucky.


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Invisiblevonhumboldt
Stranger
Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 377
Re: a liberal's response to the death of william f. buckley jr. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8090567 - 03/01/08 04:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Civil? I'm as civil and more so than my opponents. I even insulted you civilly above. And subtly. You, on the other hand, tossed out a whiny insult worthy of a High School sophomore.




I did not direct an insult toward you. If you were so offended, I do apologize. I merely referenced what you said earlier; it is above you and your ilk to debate in a civil manner as you're just a lowly infantryman and civil debate is for those who are better and of a higher order than you. They're your words.

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