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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Politics and humanity. [Re: adrug]
#8065327 - 02/24/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
adrug said: It really doesn't matter how good of a chance you think he was. There's no way America would elect him. No WAY. America is too stupid (sorry America, but its true) to elect someone based on their positions and principles. Its all about popularity. Once you realize that, then you realize that even engaging in a political discussions trying to convince people to vote for Ron Paul is completely pointless.
Forgive me though, I'm still a little bitter over the last few elections I voted in.
You're actin all cynical. Its the principle of voting for Ron Paul that matters. The people are meant to control the government not the other way around. Apathy is just what they want. You're playing into their hands and their deep pockets with your victim attitude dude.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Politics and humanity. [Re: bradmassive]
#8065348 - 02/24/08 05:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just like the principle when I voted for Nader in 2000 and the world went to SHIT. Some principle! Voting is a joke.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Politics and humanity. [Re: bradmassive]
#8066235 - 02/24/08 08:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'd like to see just one thread about politics NOT get coopted to talk about Ron Paul. Not everyone on this forum is American!
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Politics and humanity. [Re: Icelander]
#8067199 - 02/25/08 12:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think politics is a good way to get a look at humanity and where they are at. (along with religion). I myself listen to politicians and all I can hear are convenient, poorly told lies, told to people who themselves must be lying to themselves about just about everything is going on in their world. The blatant posturing of our politicians of both parties is so fucking embarrassing that I can't imagine what state of mind I would have to get into to believe anything they are saying. The human race proves themselves to be fools with each vote. To enter into the political forum is so swallow the blue pill and pray you will never have to think for yourself.
I disagree with your conclusion regarding the political forum. In many ways posting there has developed my ability to think on my own, in a different way from the ways I've developed that ability here. While what I've developed in this forum I've worked on integrating in my own life and I employ some sort of predictive ability in determining whether or not it is based in reality, predictive value in one's conclusions is determined in a much more direct manner in politics. Its easy to believe our sense of how things will happen until the votes come in and prove you wrong.
I agree with your assessment regarding being able to catch a great glimpse of where humanity is at. If people weren't such morons, then candidates wouldn't have to campaign the way they do, but I don't resent the process of their doing so because if they didn't realize the nature of the fact and didn't campaign effectively, then it is pretty clear that they would be incapable of running the executive branch effectively. If you can't recognize the abilities in the right people and delegate power to them to lead your campaign, and you can't bring simple, uninformed, pretty undecided Americans to see it your way and support you, I don't see you being able to navigate Washington, full of its senior politicians exerting influence and special interests for powerful industries.
The individuals who like to inform themselves and do their own research and not be fed anything by the media have means to access information about their stances and the policies they hold, as well as their voting record, knowledge regarding where their funds are coming from, etc. A candidate like Obama might not get too specific in his speeches to tens of thousands of Americans that are likely not very bright or at least do not go beyond the surface in making these sorts of decisions, and he might rally them up saying "change" a lot, but he still has a website on which he posts a big blueprint for change.
One observation I've made through this campaign, especially from some people on this website, is if a candidate plays the role of politician, they'll deeply criticize him, but if they stand up and simply talk about ideas and policy and conceptual stuff that takes a degree of being intelligent to comprehend, they deeply criticize them for not being electable.
Politics is a great way to gather a sense of how things are and how that will lead to the way things will be, but it isn't a very effective avenue through producing change. In order for that to happen, people have to change the way they think. I don't see that happening for the majority of the American people anytime soon, especially since what politics tells us regarding how candidates have to work to get their support. 
For those who do think and understand, national politics, the more dramatic and competitive the better, can be quite fun to observe and squabble about, and you can learn a lot from it as well.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Politics and humanity. [Re: bradmassive]
#8067290 - 02/25/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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bradmassive said: You're actin all cynical. Its the principle of voting for Ron Paul that matters. The people are meant to control the government not the other way around. Apathy is just what they want. You're playing into their hands and their deep pockets with your victim attitude dude.
She's right to an extent, however, supporting someone like Ron Paul going into and through the primaries and caucuses is one of the best ways to change the system. I personally think there should be some reform in the primary/caucus system that gives everyone the opportunity to support the candidate they like best, regardless of having to sucuumb to the electability question, and then have some system of eliminating those with less votes and voting again. West Virginia's GOP convention is very similar to what I'm thinking of and was definitely inspired by this. For those who aren't familiar with the story, Romney, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul went at it, and Paul was eliminated first because he was slightly behind McCain in votes. McCain had signfigantly less than Huckabee but Romney was still winning (Romney was very capable of buying organization to win caucuses), and McCain's supporters knew they weren't going to win and they didn't want Romney to win, so they voted for Huckabee and Huckabee's supporters made a deal with Paul's supporters and then in the next round they voted Huckabee to have all the delegates. Having a first, nonbinding vote simply to know how the support lies with each candidate and then another first vote to start eliminating candidates. Why not? Its very realistic and pragmatic, and gives more of an equal platform for candidates to reach people. Obviously the ones with greater strengths like experience, name recognition, popularity, etc., will still receive more support. Something like this, implemented through the Internet, with print reciepts of votes, both individually and stored in an independent, secure site, is probably the best way to go regarding this. 
If everyone who supported Ron Paul going into the primaries didn't, it would have been a tragedy. The degree to which Ron Paul developed a grass-roots following out of nowhere like that is unheard of, and it gave Ron Paul and his supporters the chance to really take the media to the task regarding fair coverage and to work agansit them having carte blanche to decide everything. As someone who sent emails and called newspapers and etc., and then seeing how the media, especially CNN, started to acknowledge the interest in seeing them cover it differently and began to be more fair, it would have sucked if we would have missed all of that. Ron Paul still brought in hundreds of thousands of votes and should probably be considered the most successful fringe candidate ever, beyond Ross Perot, of course, who had the benefit of having billions of dollars. The preliminary process in choosing candidates needs to be changed to allow for more opportunity for candidates like Ron Paul to have more of a chance, and his campaign is a sign of the times regarding how the Internet will play a role in national politics.
Of course, America is too stupid to elect someone like Ron Paul right now. If they were ready for Ron Paul and his message, then they would have voted for him. Ron Paul's success was great, unexpected, and would have been much better if his official campaign had not been mostly incompetant and he had not been pushing agansit such a huge wall, but its only a sign of a growing force in politics (I think you'll see this happen more and more), and it doesn't show how America as a whole thinks about what's going on and how they get involved in the process. While I personally dig most all of his ideas he has stood for, I do have reservations of his capabilities of executive branch management, especially in the White House.
Obama pretty clearly has captured the sentiment and direction this country is going in. I personally think it's a good direction this country needs right now (evidenced by the fact that the country is choosing it ). If you can't have someone like Ron Paul that would restrain and restrict the size and scope of the federal government for the benefit of the people, at least choose someone who seems capable and has the best plans for leading the country forward through the federal government. If you can't have the best thing, at least go for the next best thing.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Politics and humanity. [Re: adrug]
#8067957 - 02/25/08 09:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
adrug said: It really doesn't matter how good of a chance you think he was. There's no way America would elect him. No WAY. America is too stupid (sorry America, but its true) to elect someone based on their positions and principles. Its all about popularity. Once you realize that, then you realize that even engaging in a political discussions trying to convince people to vote for Ron Paul is completely pointless.
Forgive me though, I'm still a little bitter over the last few elections I voted in.
There have been others like Paul and they will have little overall effect on the political landscape. Why? Because very few people are comfortable with what they stand for. Most people would rather be corrupt if they could get away with it and hope to someday. America always votes it's conscience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 18 hours
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Re: Politics and humanity. [Re: Icelander]
#8068055 - 02/25/08 09:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Funny enough, I am majoring in Government and Politics, and I am apolitical in the extreme. I highly doubt any politician working in this bullshit two-party system will change the real status quo, the one which keeps the rich rich and the poor poor, and regulates what we can do with our own minds on our own time.
That Waking Life quote was actually taken pretty much verbatim from Bill Hicks. I think he said something like...
"Which do you want, the puppet on the left or the puppet on the right? Oh wait... it's the same guy holding the strings on both."
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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