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K Trout
    #806301 -

Anyone interested in the spiritual use of entheogens should check out K Trouts work. Particularly the book "Sacred Cacti"

http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/sacred_cacti.html


The sacraments are sacred even if profaned by the unknowing who also sometime use them. They do not function as spiritual tools for all who use them any more than membership in a particular church ensures that the member is devout and sincere. Spirituality is an individual and subjective experience and must come from the heart to be functional. It cannot be legislated, prescribed or dictated by others.


Entheogenic drugs are not for most people. It is not that they are somehow reserved for only a privileged few; but rather, apparently only a relatively few people respond to them this way....The minority that does respond this way to them does so because this is who we are. It is not clear why they do what they do for us and apparently do not have the same effects in others. We are not missionaries wanting to promote their use among others. We are who we are because we were born this way. We will use these substances because it is right and proper, this we know in our hearts. It is less matter of choice than one of conscience. We ask only for the right to worship in our own way as our creator has taught and enabled us. (page xii)

Drugs do not do the spiritual work. We do the work. Entheogens are just tools (software) to enable an enhancement of sensitivity for the enrichment and broadened range of our experience. This is why a person who approaches these sacraments shallowly or callously is unlikely to achieve the same results as one who approaches them with preparedness, respect and sacred intent. They are not 'magic bullets' for spiritual growth and understanding; simply power-filled teachers. It is always the student who must do the learning.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #806330 -

Intented or not, I enjoyed your chrestomathy of the link you provided.

As far as the misuse of drugs are concerned far be it from me to tell others what is and isn't correct.

Cheers,

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #806372 -

This is more political than spiritual, but thought this passage from Trout to be worth sharing:

The German people of the late 1930's would have had a hard time believing that the cleansing of society and the elimination of the 'Jew problem' was in any way a bad thing for German society. They similarly were brainwashed into perceiving that a minor and primarily politically powerless subclass of society were somehow undesirables, pariahs, the cause of their woes and THE major threat to social order and stability. As with the drug users of today, the Jewish people were publicly misrepresented as dangerous and worthless VERMIN not even worthy of normal human considerations under the law; subhuman SCUM to be cleansed from society's fabric without guilt or remorse. That Jews were being used as scapegoats for enabling a larger agenda was not even considered by the average German citizen. Our situation today is little different.

Drugs users are the Jews of the 1990's.

We also are viciously attacked and persecuted for no reason other than our readily perceived differences of belief and sometimes appearance. Our crime is our insistence that we and we alone have the right to dictate how we worship, what we think and how we feel in the privacy of our own mind.

As with the German Jewish people, we also have been relentlessly demonized in the media and portrayed as criminals and undesirables to such a degree that it is rare to find an average mainstream citizen who has not been affected. We also have no support or advocates within any bodies with effective political input. Any open and visible stances we might take would be dealt with as Hitler would have dealt with a Jew who dared to stand up openly and visibly defy him in print or speech."



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: K Trout [Re: Swami]
    #806385 -

Well, I'd damn sure rather stop taking entheogens if the gov. started throwing drug-users into concentration camps. That would be weird.

You see, I'm not sure if the world was horrified by Germany's use of the "outgroup" method... I think it was the way they dealt with their outgroup (cremating living people, gassing them, hanging them... you get the picture).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #806403 -

What do you call our enormous drug-related incarceration that is now taking place? There are brutal guards, police dogs, concertina wire, bad food, and imprisonment for an opposing belief. D.A.R.E. children, like the Nazi Youth, are encouraged to rat out their parents.

What is the big difference that you see in a concentration camp except that all sublety and pretense has been removed?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: K Trout [Re: Swami]
    #806424 -

Oh... well, marching forty miles to a camp where the elderly and the young are tossed like refuse into HUGE OVENS or GAS CHAMBERS. Oh and we don't have to wear yellow stars. And we don't have to register with the state. And we don't all come from the same ethnicity (not easily recognizable). And we aren't forced to live in ghettos of like-minded people (would that suck? hmm....). blah blah blah

I don't feel oppressed like the Jews were. I feel limited in my freedoms, but I'm not given different rules than anyone else (I just happen to think that the rules suck).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #806442 -

Give it time Sclorch. The Jews weren't marched off to the ovens the day Hitler was elected. Things will gradually become worse and in a peculiar American way, don't expect things to be just like in Nazi Germany. By the time most people wake up, it may be too late.

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #806507 -

Oh... well, marching forty miles to a camp where the elderly and the young are tossed like refuse into HUGE OVENS or GAS CHAMBERS.
A Death Camp is different than a Concentration Camp. Japanese-Americans were interred in Concentration Camps without having to take special "showers".

I don't feel oppressed like the Jews were.
Only because you have yet to be caught and/or singled out.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (08/09/02 07:40 AM)

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Re: K Trout [Re: ]
    #806561 -

By the time most people wake up, it may be too late.

A truer word was never spoken, my friend.

Cheers,

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #806588 -

Remember the nazi's could only implement the final solution under cover of world war. During peace they mainly used legal methods to intimidate and harrass.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Swami]
    #807155 -

Sclorch: Oh... well, marching forty miles to a camp where the elderly and the young are tossed like refuse into HUGE OVENS or GAS CHAMBERS.
Swami: A Death Camp is different than a Concentration Camp. Japanese-Americans were interred in Concentration Camps without having to take special "showers".

Yeah, well, maybe... but what the U.S. did to it's Japanese-Americans was NOTHING compared to what the Nazis did. Note that all "druggies" look different (I doubt that if you saw my picture or knew my lifestyle and my friends, without knowing who I was from here, that you would identify my out of a group as a drug user (at least, when I'm in my "public-straight-arrow" mode). So, I'm not worried about being thrown into some concentration camp or whatever (hell, I've never even been arrested- I've been close, but it has never been for drugs).

I don't feel oppressed like the Jews were.
Only because you have yet to be caught and/or singled out.

YET? Whatever... I won't be caught and/or singled out unless I decide to be stupid. FOR EXAMPLE: When I was 19, I was flying home from Europe... I had decided to grab a few bottles of impossible to find (at least where I'm from) bottles of foreign liquor (this crazy Russian vodka, some Norwegian Aquavit, some German stuff... I think I had like 5 bottles). I dressed for the occasion, I wore a collared shirt, nice slacks, and nice shoes. As I was boarding the plane in Germany, I noticed the attire of a fellow flier. This dipshit was wearing all hemp clothing, rasta-looking hat, dirty dreads (they really weren't nice), hemp sandals, the hippie works. When we arrived, all the Americans had to go in one line and all the foreigners had to go in another. He was in MY line (American)... out of all the Americans that were on that flight, only he was searched so tediously. I sent my bag of liquor through the X-ray... the customs guy opened it up, took a look at the bottles, took a look at me, then zipped it up and sent me on my way.
I don't call that luck. I have MANY situations like that with almost every drug I've ever taken. Did I ever get in trouble? No. Why? Because I know the game.
Do I think it's fucked up that every hippie-looking guy gets stereotyped? Yes. Can I blame the cops? Not really. Can I blame the hippies? Yup.

Alex123: Remember the nazi's could only implement the final solution under cover of world war. During peace they mainly used legal methods to intimidate and harrass.
Good point.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #807951 -

Do I think it's fucked up that every hippie-looking guy gets stereotyped?

Yeah but don't you think it's better to stand up for justice no matter who'se catching hell? Is it ok for hippies to get hassled?

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niem?ller


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #808333 -

Niem?ller?

I'm impressed.

Cheers,

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #808411 -

1. As to Niem?ller's words... they are thinly-veiled fear tactics. I won't be scared into action... EVER. (maybe REaction)

2.
Alex: Yeah but don't you think it's better to stand up for justice no matter who'se catching hell? Is it ok for hippies to get hassled?
Justice? What in the hell is justice? Do you honestly think there will ever be a just government? I don't. There will always be an outgroup. Do I like this truth? Not at all. I once heard this plan of some group.... they were wanting to extend the human lifespan to about 200 years. It would become the norm for people to not procreate until they were like 80 years old. WHY? Well, the amount of wisdom each person had accumulated by then would be far greater than most new parents nowadays (between 20 and 30y.o., right?). In a world where the expansion of the mind is the primary objective, we shall have justice... we shall have peace... we shall have true freedom. But I digress...

3. I have an excellant lawyer (whom I trust- earning my trust isn't easy).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #808970 -

I came up with a different version of that quote,

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew.
Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a
socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because
I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was
no one left to help me."

Does anyone have an accurate version of this?

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #809794 -

You ever heard of unions sclorch? Back in the days a bunch of people got together in the face if brutal oppression and improved the quality of life for all people, not just the ones they liked. That's what i call justice. Laughing at hippies being persecuted just plays right into Bush's hands.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #810293 -

You ever heard of unions sclorch?
I don't think union is the right word, but I get what you're saying.
Hey, I'll join if you can find a group that is proactive enough for my taste. I'm not a fan of sitting around talking about how "the man" sucks and bitching about how someone forgot the snacks at the last meeting. Until then, I'll focus on what I do... guerrilla politics. And I'm not just talking shit here.

Laughing at hippies being persecuted just plays right into Bush's hands.
I don't think that particular politician is smart enought to be a Nixon... as such, I feel like he poses little threat to the drug community at large. I didn't say I laughed at hippies for being persecuted. I just said that I blame them for choosing to look like a stereotypical "drug using hippie". They would get less flak from "the man" if they just wore different clothes.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #810341 -

What word do you have for unions?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #810488 -

I like 'group' better than 'union'. I think 'union' is too formal.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #810706 -

Yes but the correct term used throughout their history is trade unions. You can use "groups" if you like but no-one will have the faintest idea what you are talking about.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #811171 -

Yes but the correct term used throughout their history is trade unions.

Your post makes no mention of a trade. I thought you were referring to hippies (revolution etc.)... as such, the Merry Pranksters came to mind and I think 'group' works better for them than 'union'. Ambiguity is a bitch, ain't it?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #811623 -

Unions is a word used for the last hundred years to describe trade unions. The merry pranksters have never been described as a union.

Sorry but it's not ambiguity, just your ignorance.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #811649 -

This is what you said:
You ever heard of unions sclorch?
Okay, here I'm thinking the Local 309...

Back in the days a bunch of people got together in the face if brutal oppression and improved the quality of life for all people, not just the ones they liked.
Now I'm thinking rebellion... American Revolution...

That's what i call justice. Laughing at hippies being persecuted just plays right into Bush's hands.
Hippies? Okay, now I'm thinking Merry Pranksters. And since TRADE UNIONS is not the topic of this particular argument, it didn't mesh as well as Merry Pranksters. I thought trade unions were a little out in left field for this argument, so I figured you meant something lines along the revolution/Pranksters.
Seems like ambiguity to me. Maybe it's just vague.
Got it cleared up though... you were using trade unions as an example of people banding together to blah blah blah.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (08/11/02 07:00 PM)

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #811682 -

Sorry but unions is a generic term with only one meaning in most peoples books. I didn't realise you wern't familiar with this.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: K Trout [Re: Xlea321]
    #812212 -

un?ion Pronunciation Key (ynyn)
n.

1. a. The act of uniting or the state of being united.
b. A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit.
2. Mathematics. A set, every member of which is an element of one or another of two or more given sets.
3. Agreement or harmony resulting from the uniting of individuals; concord.
4. a. The state of matrimony; marriage: ?The element that was to make possible such a union was trust in each other's love? (Kate Chopin).
b. Sexual intercourse.
5. a. A combination of parishes for joint administration of relief for the poor in Great Britain.
b. A workhouse maintained by such a union.
6. A labor union.

Number SIX.. I was thinking 1b.
I'm done with you. You?re obviously trolling.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: K Trout [Re: Sclorch]
    #812284 -

Yeah whatever you silly troll.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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