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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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What good is shamanism?
    #8056925 - 02/22/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Proponents of shamanism keep saying what shamans cannot do.

1. They cannot heal disease such as small pox.

2. They cannot come up with technological advances.

3. They cannot divine special knowlegde.

4. They cannot 'see' at a distance nor into the future.

5. A zillion other things they cannot do.

Seems they may fill some emotional need of a tribe and that is about it. Why all the special training if one is merely to be a keeper of the myths?


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OfflineHelixx
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8056939 - 02/22/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

They harvest and distribute psychedelics among the tribe. I'm not sayin it's much, but its somethin.


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Invisiblebradmassive
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8056941 - 02/22/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The 'special training' is so you can trip-balls without getting 'teh fear'. :wink:


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"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8056954 - 02/22/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I was recently able to hear Mark Plotkin speak about his experiences with shamanism, and someone raised the same question as you.

He quoted a shaman he had studied with. He said that when you have a physical ailment or disease, you go to a doctor or a surgeon. When you have a psychological or spiritual problem, then you go see a shaman.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8056996 - 02/22/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Shamans traditionally acted in a combination of roles, functioning as mediators, custodians of oral culture and literature, political advisors, negotiators, healers and pharmacologists, counselors and adjudicators.

A good shaman was also an expert in herd migrations, botany, weather patterns and astronomy.

They fulfilled medical, political and judicial purposes, and passed on the ideas, art and history of their tribes.

They also developed and preserved powerful techniques for entering non ordinary states of conciousness.

We do not devalue the functions of a western judge, psychologist, massage therapist, botanist or negotiator because he can't cure diseases, overcome technologically superior armies or see the future. Your implied suggestion that shamans should be able to do these things, or that they are somehow devalued if they cannot, is nonsensical.

The multiple roles played by the shaman required both training and talent, and those roles were essential to the survival and prosperity of the tribes. Shamans were not "merely keepers of the myths" which you should be aware of if you have done even a minimal amount of actual research on this subject.

If you have not done such research, the value of your continued discussion of this topic is extremely limited.

If you have, you seem to be intentionally misunderstanding it.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (02/22/08 03:29 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: dblaney]
    #8057002 - 02/22/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

He said that when you have a physical ailment or disease, you go to a doctor or a surgeon.




In most all primitive tribes the shaman is the doctor. Are you saying they were not very useful in that role?

If they are merely good listeners (psychologists), then why all the nonsense about the spirit world and dead ancestors?


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8057008 - 02/22/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know what proponents you spoke to but to say that they cannot "divine special knowledge" really says nothing at all.  :throwtomato:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8057011 - 02/22/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

How about master the self and reprogram their whole psychology. I know that a shaman can do this. That is worth the ticket price alone. I don't care about the future....a true shaman only worries about experiencing the now.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8057031 - 02/22/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What good is raquetball?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8057036 - 02/22/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

While we are at it...what good is blind skepticism?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8057082 - 02/22/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Why all the special training if one is merely to be a keeper of the myths?




Let's apply this reasoning to psychiatry:

Why all the special training if one is merely someone to vent to?


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8057112 - 02/22/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

*get ready for clever one liner*

:drumming:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8057162 - 02/22/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

He said that when you have a physical ailment or disease, you go to a doctor or a surgeon.




In most all primitive tribes the shaman is the doctor. Are you saying they were not very useful in that role?

If they are merely good listeners (psychologists), then why all the nonsense about the spirit world and dead ancestors?




In some cases, they definitely were. Modern medical science has learned about many, if not most of its medicines from various plants found in rainforests and all around the world. It turns out that many indigenous people have been using those same plants as medicines for centuries and centuries. So yes, they were useful as doctors. In modern times though, we are aware of many more complex diseases and conditions, and shamans are not able to treat all of them. So patients go to physicians. If a physician isn't able to perform surgery, are they considered a bad doctor? No, not at all, it's just outside the realm of their expertise.

The spirit world and dead ancestors bit is true for some groups, but not all. Many groups now practice Christianity. It's just their world view.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8057194 - 02/22/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Why all the special training if one is merely to be a keeper of the myths?




Let's apply this reasoning to psychiatry:

Why all the special training if one is merely someone to vent to?




You should direct that question to a proponent of psychiatry.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8057202 - 02/22/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
What good is raquetball?




Relevance?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8057203 - 02/22/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Then I repeat,

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
What good is raquetball?




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OfflineNotendo
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058245 - 02/22/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)


1. They cannot heal disease such as small pox.


But a shaman is a doctor, and doctors with the right medicine can. Of course a doctor in the stone-age, a shaman, couldn't cure smallpox, but does this surprise anybody?

Is this what passes for the Swami mind-bomb these days? It is you, right? Remember me?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058269 - 02/22/08 08:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Your not going to get a proper answer. A common tactic used by people who follow their beliefs blindly is to ignore relevant posts, or declare them irrelevant and refuse to answer them.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8058310 - 02/22/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What good is fly-fishing?

Your loaded statement is a very poor tactic.

This topic is about shamanism and not sports nor psychiatry. I am not dodging anything.


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InvisibleTaharka
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8058344 - 02/22/08 08:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
a true shaman only worries about experiencing the now.




And a true Scotsman doesn't put sugar in his porridge.

Shamans in tribes that have them have been fulfilling their traditional roles, the ones their people expect of them, for thousands of years. What's the point of judging what they can and can't do? The cultures that have such an office are obviously happy with it.


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Offlinebodhiman777
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058359 - 02/22/08 08:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Proponents of shamanism keep saying what shamans cannot do.

1. They cannot heal disease such as small pox.

2. They cannot come up with technological advances.

3. They cannot divine special knowlegde.

4. They cannot 'see' at a distance nor into the future.

5. A zillion other things they cannot do.

Seems they may fill some emotional need of a tribe and that is about it. Why all the special training if one is merely to be a keeper of the myths?




A shaman is the key and gate keeper of the metaphysical realm and he maintains the communities connection with it. Whether the community chooses to abide by his suggestions or ignore his rantings, it is the communities choice.
You are right though, there is no USE for a shaman, at least nowadays. He mostly stands as a marker, pointing the way to enlightenment, not that enlightenment has much USE in the world today.


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... and so forth


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OfflineCash_99
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: bodhiman777]
    #8058383 - 02/22/08 08:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Shamanism is very, very old. What do you expect?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8058432 - 02/22/08 09:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I know that a shaman can do this.

You do? How?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Icelander]
    #8058476 - 02/22/08 09:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Because I have begun to have maximum success in doing this using the tools common to the shaman.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Taharka]
    #8058478 - 02/22/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The cultures that have such an office are obviously happy with it.




And our society is seemingly happy with psychic readers and astrologers. So what? I will continue to point out nonsense.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8058484 - 02/22/08 09:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Because I have begun to have maximum success in doing this using the tools common to the shaman.




What you just said is a far cry from your original statement. How about master the self and reprogram their whole psychology.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Icelander]
    #8058493 - 02/22/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I have begun to master myself and reprogram my psychology. I see no "far cry". I have experienced it. This is just a statement of fact.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058496 - 02/22/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
What good is fly-fishing?

Your loaded statement is a very poor tactic.

This topic is about shamanism and not sports nor psychiatry. I am not dodging anything.




What good is any activity humans could engage in that goes beyond the bare requisites for survival? This is the point. You've conceded that shamanism is useful for contributing to emotional wellbeing, as well as group solidarity. Those are some beneficial outcomes that seem to suggest the activity is worth participating in.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8058498 - 02/22/08 09:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I have begun to have maximum success




Huh?

I saved a hundred dollars. Guess I have had maximum success on my way to saving a million.

I ran a 7:15 minute mile last week. I have begun to have maximum success on my way to setting a world age group record.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8058503 - 02/22/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Dude you will never reprogram your "whole psychology" no matter what you believe right now. Nor will you ever "master" yourself. Those are benchmarks IMO, not realities.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058510 - 02/22/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I saved a hundred dollars. Guess I have had maximum success on my way to saving a million.

I ran a 7:15 minute mile last week. I have begun to have maximum success on my way to setting a world age group record.




If those are your goals then that is correct. if these are not your goals then your results are not goal oriented. What is your point?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058514 - 02/22/08 09:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I have begun to have maximum success




Huh?

I saved a hundred dollars. Guess I have had maximum success on my way to saving a million.

I ran a 7:15 minute mile last week. I have begun to have maximum success on my way to setting a world age group record.





who here is talking about money and olympics?

the correct answer is: you are. :wink:


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Invisiblebmiles
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058519 - 02/22/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
What good is raquetball?




--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058528 - 02/22/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You've conceded that shamanism is useful for contributing to emotional wellbeing, as well as group solidarity. Those are some beneficial outcomes that seem to suggest the activity is worth participating in.





What activity exactly? Other members of the tribe give the shaman power through their belief, not through his practices. Do you see the difference?

It is no different with western priests today. They do not have an 'inside line' to God or spirit.

On another note, have you ever read the allegedly true biography, "Rolling Thunder" by Doug Boyd about a Native American medicine man? If you haven't read it (should be at your local library) and get back to me. He makes many claims about supernatural powers. I do not make stuff up.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058534 - 02/22/08 09:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think Rolling Thunder is a story about some really good pot.:confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058538 - 02/22/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If you haven't read it (should be at your local library) and get back to me. He makes many claims about supernatural powers. I do not make stuff up.




Could you maybe just briefly touch upon what it's about for us so we know what to specifically look for?


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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058539 - 02/22/08 09:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't trust the academic quality of most books on shamanism these days. A lot of cheesball hippies capitalize on the popularity. Personally, I prefer to get my info from ethnographic studies or direct from indigenous people I know and trust. When you want to discuss an article from a peer reviewed anthropology journal I'll be happy to engage.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Icelander]
    #8058542 - 02/22/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My fave anecdote is where RT turns sage smoke into a tornado that scares an army prison into releasing some Indians who deserted during the Viet Nam war (or some such crime - read the book like 25 years ago).


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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058545 - 02/22/08 09:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058551 - 02/22/08 09:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

When you want to discuss an article from a peer reviewed anthropology journal I'll be happy to engage.





Post away, NN. You may take the lead.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058561 - 02/22/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"What activity exactly? "

Read my first response in this thread if you want an answer to this question.


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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (02/22/08 09:59 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058630 - 02/22/08 10:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Like I said before, I'd love to link you to articles, but you gotta pay for that shit. I have access to JSTOR and other academic databases through school. If you wanna get an account I'd be happy to share.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058724 - 02/22/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Do you have to pay for the articles themselves or just for full-time access?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8058748 - 02/22/08 10:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You have to pay for the articles themselves, unfortunately. Although some public library systems provide access to academic databases for thier patrons. You just have to log in with your library account, through the library's website.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058757 - 02/22/08 11:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Oi, the price of reliable knowledge these days.


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OfflineNotendo
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8058787 - 02/22/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ok woah woah woah everybody slow down.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Notendo]
    #8058790 - 02/22/08 11:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why not walk faster? :grin:


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InvisibleTaharka
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8059498 - 02/23/08 07:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

The cultures that have such an office are obviously happy with it.




And our society is seemingly happy with psychic readers and astrologers. So what? I will continue to point out nonsense.




Well, then go ahead, continue to point it out. That won't stop the astrologers and psychic readers from making money off of the people that do believe in them.

Shamanism, like astrology, like Christianity, makes claims about the metaphysical that (if they are true) can't be confirmed by science. I'm not talking about testing for the efficacy of prayer. But science will never tell us if there is a metaphysical realm or not.

You can talk until you're blue in the face telling these people that their beliefs are a delusion. Only, since they're perfectly happy with believing what they do, they will only tone you out.

And besides. You don't have to believe in shamanism, and it is a part of their culture. If you were railing against the inquisition I would understand. But some indigenous shaman in the Amazon, even if he doesn't have healing powers, isn't really harming you. Don't be so ethnocentric. Let them believe what they want.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Taharka]
    #8059682 - 02/23/08 09:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is a debate forum. Are you asking us not to debate?:tongue:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Taharka]
    #8059698 - 02/23/08 09:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

But some indigenous shaman in the Amazon, even if he doesn't have healing powers, isn't really harming you. Don't be so ethnocentric. Let them believe what they want.




Does the Amazonian shaman have DSL and a 'puter? If he does, he might learn something. If not, then he doesn't even know he is being discussed.

Please list what topics are valid for discussion here wherein no one will be offended nor rigid about a certain belief.

TIA


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8059824 - 02/23/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, Orgone, all of the shaman in the rain forest have hurt feelings now. All because of you. They'll be crying themselves to sleep tonight...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8059831 - 02/23/08 10:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

..and as an amateur neo-shaman I am personally quite offended. I may even write my congressman about shaman rights.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (02/23/08 10:54 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8059872 - 02/23/08 10:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A true shaman takes offense very easily. :yesnod:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8059884 - 02/23/08 11:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Everyone knows that self importance is the enemy of a man of knowledge...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleTaharka
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Icelander]
    #8060336 - 02/23/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I only meant that it was pointless for Orgone to say that shamanism was pointless.

As NiamhNyx said, "What good is any activity humans could engage in that goes beyond the bare requisites for survival?"

I'm willing to concede that shamanism is pointless from the Western point of view much like astrology and palm reading. Maybe if you replaced all of the indegenous shamans with a manual for the "proper" use of entheogens, the people would be just as well off. But the people want their shamans. What's the point of saying that shamanism is pointless?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Taharka]
    #8060346 - 02/23/08 01:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I believe the original posters reference was to the reverence and unproven claims that westerners make regarding the abilities of shamans.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleGretchenmeister
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Taharka]
    #8062258 - 02/23/08 08:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

THEY THEY THEY...don't do...but can help you figure out how to do for yourself..since the divine knowledge or healing can only be done from within and by ones self, for ones self...thru ones own faith...not the faith of the healer or shaman. Who showed the shaman the way? Aho


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What's wrong with folks?

Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs.


Mush Porn


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Gretchenmeister]
    #8062303 - 02/23/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

'What's wrong with folks?'

??


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8066763 - 02/24/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i get the impression that shamanism is being disscused here by people with strong opinions with nothing to back them on. by that i mean, have you ever personally known a indiginous shaman, heard him speak, seen his work? you can say he's valid, or you can say he's pointless, but if you havent met him, its all based on what you've heard or read about.

from what iv seen, i think shamanism is far from pointless. besides all the specific shamanistic practices, a shaman is one who comes to the world through their heart. that kind of human being is very valuable to this world.


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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: Archemetis]
    #8067247 - 02/25/08 12:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:macdre: was a nigga ass shaman.  I saw him while I was high after smokin' a bl33zy of nigga ass Sally D.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8071547 - 02/26/08 08:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Shamanism is much like humanism..

A way of life.. :smile:


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