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 OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
 
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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 What good is shamanism? 
#8056925 - 02/22/08 03:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Proponents of shamanism keep saying what shamans cannot do.
1. They cannot heal disease such as small pox.
2. They cannot come up with technological advances.
3. They cannot divine special knowlegde.
4. They cannot 'see' at a distance nor into the future.
5. A zillion other things they cannot do.
Seems they may fill some emotional need of a tribe and that is about it. Why all the special training if one is merely to be a keeper of the myths?
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 Helixx
Mood:Fragglerocked
Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1,623
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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They harvest and distribute psychedelics among the tribe. I'm not sayin it's much, but its somethin.
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill
Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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The 'special training' is so you can trip-balls without getting 'teh fear'. 
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"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson
"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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I was recently able to hear Mark Plotkin speak about his experiences with shamanism, and someone raised the same question as you.
He quoted a shaman he had studied with. He said that when you have a physical ailment or disease, you go to a doctor or a surgeon. When you have a psychological or spiritual problem, then you go see a shaman.
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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Shamans traditionally acted in a combination of roles, functioning as mediators, custodians of oral culture and literature, political advisors, negotiators, healers and pharmacologists, counselors and adjudicators.
A good shaman was also an expert in herd migrations, botany, weather patterns and astronomy.
They fulfilled medical, political and judicial purposes, and passed on the ideas, art and history of their tribes.
They also developed and preserved powerful techniques for entering non ordinary states of conciousness.
We do not devalue the functions of a western judge, psychologist, massage therapist, botanist or negotiator because he can't cure diseases, overcome technologically superior armies or see the future. Your implied suggestion that shamans should be able to do these things, or that they are somehow devalued if they cannot, is nonsensical.
The multiple roles played by the shaman required both training and talent, and those roles were essential to the survival and prosperity of the tribes. Shamans were not "merely keepers of the myths" which you should be aware of if you have done even a minimal amount of actual research on this subject.
If you have not done such research, the value of your continued discussion of this topic is extremely limited.
If you have, you seem to be intentionally misunderstanding it.
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Everything I post is fiction.
Edited by Moonshoe (02/22/08 03:29 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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 Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: dblaney]
#8057002 - 02/22/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
He said that when you have a physical ailment or disease, you go to a doctor or a surgeon.
In most all primitive tribes the shaman is the doctor. Are you saying they were not very useful in that role?
If they are merely good listeners (psychologists), then why all the nonsense about the spirit world and dead ancestors?
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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I don't know what proponents you spoke to but to say that they cannot "divine special knowledge" really says nothing at all. 
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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How about master the self and reprogram their whole psychology. I know that a shaman can do this. That is worth the ticket price alone. I don't care about the future....a true shaman only worries about experiencing the now.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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What good is raquetball?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8057036 - 02/22/08 03:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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While we are at it...what good is blind skepticism?
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Why all the special training if one is merely to be a keeper of the myths?
Let's apply this reasoning to psychiatry:
Why all the special training if one is merely someone to vent to?
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8057112 - 02/22/08 03:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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*get ready for clever one liner*
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
He said that when you have a physical ailment or disease, you go to a doctor or a surgeon.
In most all primitive tribes the shaman is the doctor. Are you saying they were not very useful in that role?
If they are merely good listeners (psychologists), then why all the nonsense about the spirit world and dead ancestors?
In some cases, they definitely were. Modern medical science has learned about many, if not most of its medicines from various plants found in rainforests and all around the world. It turns out that many indigenous people have been using those same plants as medicines for centuries and centuries. So yes, they were useful as doctors. In modern times though, we are aware of many more complex diseases and conditions, and shamans are not able to treat all of them. So patients go to physicians. If a physician isn't able to perform surgery, are they considered a bad doctor? No, not at all, it's just outside the realm of their expertise.
The spirit world and dead ancestors bit is true for some groups, but not all. Many groups now practice Christianity. It's just their world view.
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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8057194 - 02/22/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Why all the special training if one is merely to be a keeper of the myths?
Let's apply this reasoning to psychiatry:
Why all the special training if one is merely someone to vent to?
You should direct that question to a proponent of psychiatry.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8057202 - 02/22/08 04:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
What good is raquetball?
Relevance?
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8057203 - 02/22/08 04:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then I repeat,
Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
What good is raquetball?
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Notendo
Stranger
Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 58
Last seen: 15 years, 27 days
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1. They cannot heal disease such as small pox.
But a shaman is a doctor, and doctors with the right medicine can. Of course a doctor in the stone-age, a shaman, couldn't cure smallpox, but does this surprise anybody?
Is this what passes for the Swami mind-bomb these days? It is you, right? Remember me?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: What good is shamanism? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8058269 - 02/22/08 08:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Your not going to get a proper answer. A common tactic used by people who follow their beliefs blindly is to ignore relevant posts, or declare them irrelevant and refuse to answer them.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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What good is fly-fishing?
Your loaded statement is a very poor tactic.
This topic is about shamanism and not sports nor psychiatry. I am not dodging anything.
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Taharka
The Root of the Problem
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 686
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
a true shaman only worries about experiencing the now.
And a true Scotsman doesn't put sugar in his porridge.
Shamans in tribes that have them have been fulfilling their traditional roles, the ones their people expect of them, for thousands of years. What's the point of judging what they can and can't do? The cultures that have such an office are obviously happy with it.
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