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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule
#8056099 - 02/22/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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From Obamas Plan for America
Quote:
Set goals for middle-school and high-school students to serve 50 hours a year of public service, and for college students to serve 100 hours a year
Public/ community service is something we sentence law breakers to do for punishment. How can our government force kids to do 50-100 hours of community service every year?
Isn't this against child labor laws? Even kids working sweat shops get paid something.
Last time I checked, madatory labor , without compensation, for the benefit of others, was called slavery.
WTF is it with Barrack and Hillary trying to turn the rest of us into their mini me's.
Egomania has no boundaries.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056107 - 02/22/08 11:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Such ideas are a feature of the left.
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robbyberto
Water Boy


Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 15,499
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056115 - 02/22/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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That would promote change. Change is always good. Change. Change. CHANGE! Do you have a link to support that?
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8056147 - 02/22/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Such ideas are a feature of the left.
I know Hillary is also a fan of slave labor and use to make arrangements when she was first lady of Arkansas to have prisoners released for the day just to do her mothers landscaping and yard work for free. I've posted about her Slave Master tendencies already though.
Dodd also proposed making community service mandatory for just HS students.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: robbyberto]
#8056171 - 02/22/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why is it that Obama supporters here know so little about the candidate THEY support and ask me for links to learn more about him? 
Here-http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/NationalServicePlanFactSheet.pdf
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056181 - 02/22/08 12:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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you are soooo mean! Obama is about change and HOPE!
And he is clean, articulate, handsome, and dreamy....
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: lonestar2004]
#8056203 - 02/22/08 12:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: Obama is soooo mean! Obama is about mandating the free labor of Americas children!
And he is clean, articulate, handsome, and dreamy....
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Kombat Frank
GREAT JOB!



Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 277
Loc: earth
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056225 - 02/22/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I SWEAR TO GOD IM MOVING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY!!!!!!
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ego tripping at the gates of hell
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056227 - 02/22/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjljYjA3YTYzMjU2ZjA5Yzg1MmM2YjIzZjEyN2ZjZjk=
Quote:
"Barack Will Never Allow You to Go Back to Your Lives as Usual."
Last night I appeared on Hugh's show, and his producer Duane mentioned a Michelle Obama speech at UCLA. Captain Ed talked about this a bit, but I hadn't seen anyone transcribe the part of the speech where it gets a little... unnerving. It starts at about 8:41 in the audio.
" Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism. That you put down your divisions. That you come out of your isolation, that you move out of your comfort zones. That you push yourselves to be better. And that you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed."
I'm sorry, nowhere in the Constitution does it authorize the President of the United States to demand anyone shed their cynicism. And I'm all for people pushing themselves to be better, but I don't think the President demanding it is the way to go about it.
And what if we kind of like our lives as usual? What about Americans' freedom to be uninvolved and uninformed?
Darleen at Protein Wisdom transcribed what follows:
"You have to stay at the seat at the table of democracy with a man like Barack Obama not just on Tuesday but in a year from now, in four years from now, in eights years from now, you will have to be engaged."
Ah. Apparently apathy will be criminalized, then?
Does anybody on the left side of the aisle find this rhetoric a little creepy? Isn't this describing an authoritarian presidency way beyond anything George W. Bush has done or proposed?
Do the powers of the presidency really encompass everything Michelle says Obama wants and plans to do? Based on this rhetoric, isn't he actually running for messiah?
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056234 - 02/22/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Of course, Obama's privledged children will not have to pick up trash along the side of the road. He can afford them Private schools.
http://nalert.blogspot.com/2008/01/obamas-kids-go-to-private-school-as.html
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056278 - 02/22/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Good.
And I mean this, I'm not being sarcastic. Good.
I go to a crappy little college, so many of you might not see this, but we have what are called "Non Traditional Applicants", basically older students, of which I am one. Most of us have hacked it in the "real world" for a while before going to college. And most of us, having fucked off in a factory or fast food for a while, are better students with better grades and a better overall attitude towards education. I can guarentee you that any HS student who spends a few weeks with a leaf blower or a spatula will appreciate education more.
Slave labor? Look at the hours here. 50-100 hours of labor in a year. 2-4 weeks a year. Calling that slave labor is just... ignorant. Slave Labor means the rest of your goddamned life. Or most of it. It means HARD work. Talk to someone doing community service. Cleaning parks and washing fire trucks isn't PICKING 500 ACRES OF COTTON AND GETTING THE PISS WHIPPED OUT OF YOU ALL THE SAME. To call this slave labor is like calling a night at the opera a concentration camp.
Add to all that, I don't really like teenagers. Most of them are lazy, and stupid. Most of the stuff we need community service to fix is their fault. So go for it.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8056289 - 02/22/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Forced labor is forced labor.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8056343 - 02/22/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Forced labor is forced labor.
Saying X is X isn't really an argument. Well, in the most strict sense, it is. But not a useful one.
Now go on to characterize forced labor, and show how it's bad in all cases.
For example, could you stop laboring? In our society, could you get by without any kind of job or labor? Could you survive?
So what's the difference between forced labor and not having any option but labor?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8056369 - 02/22/08 12:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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who the fuck is going to supervise all these middle and high school kids while they are working?
are we just going to drop them off at a homeless shelter in downtown Baltimore and hope for the best?
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8056381 - 02/22/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I suppose you like the draft, too.
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8056391 - 02/22/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not only is it far beyond the acceptable power of the government to force students to do labor, many simply don't have the time for this shit. When I was in high-school, between school itself, sports/extra-curricular activities, homework and my job I was already tied-up for approx. 80 hours.
My rather typical schedule was: Leave for school at 7ish, not get home until after 6 from sports/extra-curriculars. Fri. nights w/ football games I was there until after 10 frequently. That equals about 55 hours a week. Figure on a conservative estimate of 2 hours of homework every night, that brings it up to 70 hours a week . Then it was off to scan groceries on Saturday night and all day Sunday, which makes 80 hours, conservatively.
Maybe he should be suggesting that lazy adults who only work 40-60 hours a week be forced to do community service. Nope! Adults can actually vote.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056394 - 02/22/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Last time I checked, madatory labor , without compensation, for the benefit of others, was called slavery.
what's wrong with the shoe being on the other foot
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JacquesCousteau
Being.



Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: lonestar2004]
#8056404 - 02/22/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: are we just going to drop them off at a homeless shelter in downtown Baltimore and hope for the best?
Actually, I think that's a great solution as to what to do with all the middle and high school kids...
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8056427 - 02/22/08 01:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Last time I checked, madatory labor , without compensation, for the benefit of others, was called slavery.
what's wrong with the shoe being on the other foot
explain please
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056433 - 02/22/08 01:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I believe that he is referring to a black man (Obama) who will enslave (mostly) white people.
At least, that's what I got out of it.
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robbyberto
Water Boy


Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 15,499
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056457 - 02/22/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Why is it that Obama supporters here know so little about the candidate THEY support and ask me for links to learn more about him? 
Here-http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/NationalServicePlanFactSheet.pdf
I'm not an Obama supporter. I dislike him intensely. I just wanted another reason not to vote for him.
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
#8056480 - 02/22/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ziggen said: I believe that he is referring to a black man (Obama) who will enslave (mostly) white people.
At least, that's what I got out of it.
oh!
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: robbyberto]
#8056481 - 02/22/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
robbyberto said:
Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: I'm not an Obama supporter. I dislike him intensely. I just wanted another reason not to vote for him.
gotcha!
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Kombat Frank]
#8056559 - 02/22/08 01:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kombat Frank said: I SWEAR TO GOD IM MOVING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY!!!!!!
If the government ever takes away my right to homeschool, or starts putting these mandates unto private schools, it will be my cue to leave this nanny state, commie country, it will have become, as well.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056563 - 02/22/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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acutally he is not forcing people to do community service he will offer them a $4000 grant for college
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8056583 - 02/22/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I could expect somone with the user name crumb bum, to find a nanny government to wipe your ass for you, as an ideal. 
The planet already has commie countries with dictators. Ever thought about immigrating to North Korea?:)
I don't appreciate anyone trying to turn my Free country into one, including Barrack.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Coaster]
#8056602 - 02/22/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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reply better corrected up ahead
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (02/22/08 02:42 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056634 - 02/22/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Why is it that Obama supporters here know so little about the candidate THEY support and ask me for links to learn more about him? 
Here-http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/NationalServicePlanFactSheet.pdf
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2008/02/14/sarandon-obamas-pregnant-woman-abortion-rally
Quote:
Leftist actress Susan Sarandon was a big backer of John Edwards, but now she's going to shift and endorse Barack Obama. On Monday's edition of the Tavis Smiley show on PBS, she likened Obama to a pregnant woman at an abortion rally:
"Well, I'm going to back Obama. But I hope -- I think that he, as a symbol, has really excited people, and he's definitely confusing to everyone who really hates America for hating Muslims because a name like Obama and a black man, they're probably going to go "Oh, wait a minute -- What?" It's kind of like when you're out on the line for freedom to have an abortion and you're incredibly pregnant. They just can't quite figure it out.
So I think he definitely has convinced people that he stands for change and for hope, and I can't wait to see what he stands for."
Fucking daft bint.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Coaster]
#8056724 - 02/22/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Okay, back.
The 50 hours a year of community service for middle and high school students is just that. That's the one that most concerns me because they are minors being forced into labor without compensation. That should run against child labor laws. Not sure how he will get away with that.
For those who qualify, they can get a $4,000 tax credit, which would cover about two thirds of the tuition at your average community college. in exchange they would have to work 100 hours of community service.
Please note that the only way you can benefit from a $4,000 a year tax credit is that you have to be making enough money to owe the $4,000 in taxes to get it back in the first place. It's your money they are stealing from you and then, giving back to you in exchange for 100 hours of community work.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8056764 - 02/22/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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wow that is uber fucking WACK
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
#8057223 - 02/22/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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> I believe that he is referring to a black man (Obama) who will enslave (mostly) white people.
Race has nothing to do with it... all about softening up the younger generations to accept the idea of mandatory military service (long term goal).
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8057228 - 02/22/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Out of curiosity what age to you think you'll be homeschooling your kids too?
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Seuss]
#8057231 - 02/22/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > I believe that he is referring to a black man (Obama) who will enslave (mostly) white people.
Race has nothing to do with it... all about softening up the younger generations to accept the idea of mandatory military service (long term goal).
Fuck that shit!
If that is the future the Orwellian prophecy is true!
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
#8057461 - 02/22/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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god i hope i finish college be4 this takes effect i dont got time for this 100 hour bullshit
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Coaster]
#8057562 - 02/22/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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LOL
This will never be enacted. If it does, it won't be mandatory. It will probably be in the form of tax breaks or loan forgiveness.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
#8057666 - 02/22/08 06:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradmassive said: Out of curiosity what age to you think you'll be homeschooling your kids too?
I just have the one, she's 11, would be 5th grade for her age but is doing higher grade level work.
Every year, I ask her if she wants to consider going ( to a private school) and so far, she is happy with homeschooling and isn't interested, thankfully. I would prefer to take her through HS at home, yet, it's her life and I won't force it if she wants to experience a more traditional school environment and curriculum at any point up the road.
I would insist on a private school though. We live in Florida. She went to one when we first moved here starting with the first grade and it was run like a NAZI prison camp. The faculty and staff from the principle to the lunch room ladies were big on intimidation, threatening and shaming students. I use to go in as a volunteer to help with things and I saw more then I cared to and took her out after 6 weeks. They had no honors or advanced classes for the primary grades either, which she needed to be in.
They are not even teaching the kids here in Florida to read or write in cursive so they can spend more time cramming useless facts they forget 4 months later, for the FCATs.
I'll let her go through HS at home if she wants too. She is a strong self led learner and this is probably the best way for her to reach her fullest potential. She is free to fly ahead in any direction she wants to go and does.
That's our situation, why do ask?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8057817 - 02/22/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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dang u homesckool em dont they see u on the shroomery all the time lol do they no about ur drug use i used to think homeschooled kids lacked social shit but i new this guy in college who was homeschooled and he fit right in
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Coaster]
#8058172 - 02/22/08 08:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't use drugs, never really have except for trying pot and shrooms a few times in my late teens. Not for me. I'm 39 now.
To her this is just another message board I read and write at.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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KetamineKatalyst
Skyhighatrist



Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 1,647
Loc: Koma Kluster
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8058553 - 02/22/08 09:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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gettinjiggywithit, I respect you very much for homeschooling your daughter! If I ever do have a child, I would love to go this route, and give him/her a real education. Public schools are horrible in my experience...
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lilly
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fireworks_god
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8058650 - 02/22/08 10:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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gettinjiggywithit said: Public/ community service is something we sentence law breakers to do for punishment.
No, jiggy, you are wrong.
People who go through the justice system are given community service in order to promote rehabilitation, not to "punish" them.
It gives them life experience in giving something beneficial to the community, to make it better. For example, say you are walking alongside a road, picking up trash, it gives someone a sense of the consequences that we humans create in our actions, something we wouldn't have seen if we never chose to or had to go and do (its something I've chose to do and had to do ).
It isn't punishment for criminals. Punishment for criminals is taking away all of their rights by placing them in a cell and simply leaving them there. It accomplishes nothing. It doesn't take into account the way the minds of human beings work. Giving people the opportunity to take on positive life experience helping others and developing a strength of character within oneself is a beneficial thing for everyone.
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How can our government force kids to do 50-100 hours of community service every year?
Its simple. Children who are enrolled in public school have to take the classes that the school provides, and if a college student takes Obama's $4000 tax credit for the funding of college, then they have to give something back to the community in the direct short-term in exchange for the community helping them through school, for the future of both.
In high school I took an environmental class, and we were fortunate enough to have a trout steam that ran through the town nearby. One day, our class assignment was to go to the stream. I believe we picked up trash, took water samples, and simply learned, through experience, how to care for a natural phenomenon for the health of ourselves and the habitat.
It would be no huge difference between a school requiring class-work community service. It is not as though some huge line has been crossed in violation of human sovereignty. Not anymore than school already is, anyways. I say that as someone who has went through public schooling. In fact, I would think that something like this is specifically for the education of children, because a lot of school is not effective in teaching children anything that is relevant to the life that they will live, whereas experience working with others and gaining a sense of perspective of the world around us most certainly will.
So, there you have it, school is school. The only thing that changes is that school begins to teach children about the world around them, to create not only a sense of our social and physical environment around us to help us live our life better, but also to better some aspect of reality that has not yet received attention, whether it is from adding to the quality of life of old people in a home where they do not get much novelty, something they would enjoy most in that time in their life (which is why I personally really enjoy the idea of getting old people a computer and Internet access in such circumstances, and teaching them how to begin to use the Internet. There are so many ways to be stimulated through it, and think of the wealth of information that would be obtained for the future ), or by simply making our environment cleaner.
Obama also proposes a Green Job Corps. That might sound crazy to you as well. The idea of him providing jobs to people who have no real opportunity for good jobs to enter into projects that create a new infrastructure of the country for an economy of the 21st century, one that will respect the nature of our environment, and the quality of life for Americans. Roosevelt created a Job Corps after the Great Depression and it is one of the reasons why the country came out of the Great Depression - people were given jobs and new roads were built and bridges were built and it paved the way for a booming economy.
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Isn't this against child labor laws? Even kids working sweat shops get paid something.
No it isn't. Community service isn't labor.
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Last time I checked, madatory labor , without compensation, for the benefit of others, was called slavery.
It isn't mandatory, any more than going to public school already is, so nothing has changed.
Money is not the only way in which people are compensated, jiggy, and community service isn't just for the benefit of others.
It isn't as though children are being taken into cotton fields, or to serve in the kitchen of a mansion, or into some kind of machine in a factory. You know, its funny that you would be so irrational regarding this by trying to equate it with child labor, when, back at the turn of the last century, industrialists were getting away with all kinds of terrible stuff, kids weren't even going to school, but were basically living in machines. There are pictures of people who have grossly misshaped bodies as result of the working conditions they were in, even children.
For you to associate a positive, limited amount of community service in public school, already as much as an affront on individual freedom as it could be, as child slave labor is very ignorant, and it is fear-based. It is hysterical. We are talking about cleaning up the town in which one lives, or visiting loving old people who are just lonely and need to be interacted with, or working in a recycling center to lessen the footprint we leave on the environment through the trash that we create, or helping to teach others. Someone in this thread has already spoke for the benefit in such a thing, and I do as well. It isn't being any more mandatory than public school already is.
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WTF is it with Barrack and Hillary trying to turn the rest of us into their mini me's.
Egomania has no boundaries.
Ahh, the irony.
You're the one strongly reacting to the idea that children would learn from making their community and themselves better through positive life experience here. It isn't as though the children aren't still free to parents to evade the responsibility of interacting with them to prepare them for the life that they will lead. If you are willing to accept the existence of public schooling, then this isn't any more of an encroach on anything. There is more than one type of education that schools can give. Complementing the one that is predominant now (mostly textbook learning) with the one that shows children the world around them, gets them involved, and improves the quality of life is only being more wise in how children are educated.
The notion that community service is government slavery is ridiculuous. I don't buy the slippery slope arguement because nature is a system of checks and balances. Let's not engage in such emotionalism if we are to understand.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8058666 - 02/22/08 10:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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gettinjiggywithit said: I know Hillary is also a fan of slave labor and use to make arrangements when she was first lady of Arkansas to have prisoners released for the day just to do her mothers landscaping and yard work for free. I've posted about her Slave Master tendencies already though.
Yes, Hillary Clinton's corruption is a testament agansit community service.
Probably a good thing she isn't getting the nomination, and Obama is, right?
Community service through public schools isn't going to be working in a mansion. Anyways, even if Hillary was using her power to benefit from the criminal justice system, the prisoners were probably just happy to get out of the prison and get some fresh air. I bet it contributed health to their mental state of being. Fresh air is much better than four walls. Aha, the benefit of community service, life experience, even if it was misused by a crooked politician for personal benefit.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8058689 - 02/22/08 10:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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gettinjiggywithit said: Why is it that Obama supporters here know so little about the candidate THEY support and ask me for links to learn more about him? 
Here-http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/NationalServicePlanFactSheet.pdf
Oh jiggy, you are so cute, Obama supporters here probably only ask you to provide links to the unsubstantiated garbage that you propose regarding Obama, mostly because it usually is completely baseless. Any actual information regarding Obama is already known by them.
I would hate to make you lose the identity you gain from being the savior for people who actually like Obama for what he stands for, and not just because, as you think, they've become delusional, but I was already well-aware of this.
What I'm not aware of, is any actual information regarding your assertion that Obama voted for a "NAFTA Superhighway". Searching vote records when you have next to no information on the actual bill (since it probably doesn't contain either the word NAFTA or the word Superhighway ) is pretty difficult. 
I already demonstrated to you how your judgement of his vote on the Energy Policy Act of 2005 was blatantly inaccurate.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8058699 - 02/22/08 10:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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crumblebum said: And most of us, having fucked off in a factory or fast food for a while, are better students with better grades and a better overall attitude towards education. I can guarentee you that any HS student who spends a few weeks with a leaf blower or a spatula will appreciate education more.
Real life experience. I think it is amusing how some would hysterically react to a better eduation for American children.
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To call this slave labor is like calling a night at the opera a concentration camp.
Exactly. It is pure emotionalism. I think it is out of fear, but its ignorant.
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Add to all that, I don't really like teenagers. Most of them are lazy, and stupid. Most of the stuff we need community service to fix is their fault. So go for it.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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zorbman
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8058939 - 02/23/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Community service is horrible.
Those kids will be scarred for life!!!
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8058994 - 02/23/08 12:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
Oh jiggy, you are so cute, Obama supporters here probably only ask you to provide links to the unsubstantiated garbage that you propose regarding Obama, mostly because it usually is completely baseless.
Slow down and breath. The unsubstantiated garbage I posted came from Obama's own Plan. Did you read the link?
I agree, mandating 50 hours of community service for middle and high school students is garbage. You and crum bum act as if every student in the U.S. is a failing, unmotivated, degenerate, juvenile delinquent, looser without caring parents from an inner city, who needs to do time serving others. My apologies to both of you for being able to relate your middle and HS years to being as such.
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I would hate to make you lose the identity you gain from being the savior for people who actually like Obama for what he stands for, and not just because, as you think, they've become delusional, but I was already well-aware of this.
What are you talking about? This is a Political forum. There is a Presidential race underway. Criticizing platforms is a part of Political debate. What the hell do you think the candidates do with each other on stage during a debate?
How many times do I have to type this? Please sticky this to your monitor. If you or anyone else here supports Obama, you do. That is not the issue with me. We all have our own personal favorites and right to choose for ourselves as it should be. My goal in such posts is informing voters/U.S. citizens, of things they may not be aware of about the candidates, what may be to come if they are elected and opening a venue for discussing them.
This identity you have of me as being some savior of people from voting for Obama, is your delusion. It's down to Hillary, Obama and McCain and I equally despise all 3 of them for the position. I have not a damned thing to gain anymore regarding this election. I'll encourage everyone here to go vote for Obama and it won't make a difference in the outcome either.
Do you have anything to contribute about this plan of his or not?
If you think our public educational system is a place to be mandating community service for middle and high school kids then state why.
I think that is a personal values issue that belongs to families and churches to teach for the acts to have any real meaning.
U.S, students are falling far behind the academic achievements of other first world countries and Obama wants our kids to divert academic school time to manual labor servitude as a solution. He wants to further contribute to the dumbing down of America in my eyes for proposing this!
Raise your own kid to be an unpaid servant of the government if you want too.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8059007 - 02/23/08 01:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
Real life experience. I think it is amusing how some would hysterically react to a better eduation for American children.
If you yourself had one, you would realize that scrubbing graffitti off of walls and pushing seniors in wheel chairs for walks does nothing to help Americas school children to compete in math, science, business finance, marketing, trade, technology, critical thinking and creativeinnovation in a global marketplace when they get out of school.
Mandated community service will better acedemic education in America how?
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To call this slave labor is like calling a night at the opera a concentration camp.
Exactly. It is pure emotionalism. I think it is out of fear, but its ignorant.
Ignoring acedemia during school hours in favor of picking up trash along the side of the road is a damn good way to stay ignorant and yes, I fear this plan will contribute to the ignorance of Americas public school population.
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crumblebum said; Add to all that, I don't really like teenagers. Most of them are lazy, and stupid. Most of the stuff we need community service to fix is their fault. So go for it.
FG said;

I rest my case.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (02/23/08 01:59 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8059116 - 02/23/08 02:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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gettinjiggywithit said:
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fireworks_god said:
Oh jiggy, you are so cute, Obama supporters here probably only ask you to provide links to the unsubstantiated garbage that you propose regarding Obama, mostly because it usually is completely baseless.
Slow down and breath. The unsubstantiated garbage I posted came from Obama's own Plan. Did you read the link?
Wow, okay, you so don't get it. 
Think for a second. I was specifically referring to your statement, "why is it that Obama supporters here know so little about their candidate that they ask me for links to learn more about him?", which is a blatantly obtuse statement, as I clearly demonstrated, because Obama supporters here only ask you for links for the unsubstantiated garbage that you propose, such as "He is hypocritical for voting for the Bush/Cheney energy bill", or "He voted to build the NAFTA superhighway".
At least you gave enough information for the energy bill for a rational thinking individual to research into it and successfully debunk the notion that he was hypocritical, voting in a way to contradict his stance on the issues.
You still haven't produced anything of enough substance, as far as a source (your responsibility in producing for the statement), for that one to be debunked.
Okay, now listen carefully here:
I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE LINK THAT YOU HAD POSTED!
And neither were you, the statement you quoted of me saying was in response to your assertion that Obama supporters ask you for links to learn more about him. They ask you for links because most of the garbage you put forth on Obama DO NOT HAVE LINKS. They ask you for links so they can show you that you are more than likely wrong. NO ONE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE LINK YOU POSTED. I KNEW IT WAS FROM HIS WEBSITE. I KNEW OF HIS PLANS TO DO THIS BEFORE I DECIDED TO SUPPORT HIM.
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I agree, mandating 50 hours of community service for middle and high school students is garbage. You and crum bum act as if every student in the U.S. is a failing, unmotivated, degenerate, juvenile delinquent, looser without caring parents from an inner city, who needs to do time serving others.
No, I don't act as if that is the case. You continue to parade around the false notion that community service is a sentence to punishment. It isn't.
In fact, it is the best and brightest and most motivated and developed children who would benefit most from, and give the most through, community service, because they are most capable of doing so well, most receptive to learning and growing from the experience, which will give them more strength of character to be a success in the future.
Community service isn't punishment. Its educational, and it is capable of bringing an education to American students that they sorely lack, which is why it has a place in schools. Schools have the power of bringing a community together, and the ways children have that effect don't only have to be through playing sports.
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My apologies to both of you for being able to relate your middle and HS years to being as such.
It isn't the case; that is not how I relate to my years in public schooling. The points was, of course, that I know from experience that adding community service to the education provided in public schools is not more of any more of an encroachment on personal freedom as school itself is. Public school might be an encroachment on personal freedom, but parents are still capable of providing alternate means of education that the state recognizes, and I can't say that I resent having been schooled too much, but what I do resent is all of the failings that exist in education in this country, how it is not carried out effectively, and I recognize that this is due to the fact that America never really focuses on education, which is what Obama does.
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What are you talking about? This is a Political forum. There is a Presidential race underway. Criticizing platforms is a part of Political debate. What the hell do you think the candidates do with each other on stage during a debate?
Yes, but you don't actually engage in meaningful discussion of facts. You simply emotionally react to your own misconceptions, and when someone tries showing you this, you conclude that they don't know the candidate, and then you make little statements that mock people who have already read and become quite familiar with the information you post in this thread.
I appreciate the opportunity you create in discussing the issues, but I'm simply saying that you aren't really discussing the matter in any efective way. Comparing community service to punishment and child labor is simply an emotional appeal, which has no place in ideaological discussion. You won't actually debate someone when they put you to the spot for what you say.
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How many times do I have to type this? Please sticky this to your monitor. If you or anyone else here supports Obama, you do.
Okay, let me try to let this one sink in....
If, I, or, say, someone else, supports Obama....
then...
they support Obama.
Okay, I think I got it. It took awhile for the meaning of that one to sink in.
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That is not the issue with me. We all have our own personal favorites and right to choose for ourselves as it should be.
Most admirable realization.
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My goal in such posts is informing voters/U.S. citizens, of things they may not be aware of about the candidates, what may be to come if they are elected and opening a venue for discussing them.
Exactly, but you don't approach the matter in any honest way. Referring to community service as child labor doesn't produce any kind of response other than to your false conception of community service as child labor. If you were actually interested in seeking out honest, open discussion on the candidates and their policies, then you would put more effort into producing links when you make stupid statements like "Obama voted for the NAFTA superhighway", so they can research the information for themselves, reach their own conclusions, and then, possibly, demonstrate to you the error in your thinking (as what happened with the debate regarding the energy bill).
Besides, how can we believe that Obama would really implement community service for childen in public school? Its all just rhetoric, isn't it? Maybe its all just feel-good stuff.
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You can't give no credit to the change that a candidate seeks that would actually be a good step in the country, saying he doesn't actually mean it, but then focus on all of the things that you personally don't agree with and then portray him as meaning it.
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This identity you have of me as being some savior of people from voting for Obama, is your delusion.
No, its evident in statements that you have made, asking why is it that Obama supporters ask you for links to learn about their candidate, etc. The emotionalism that you instill within your presentations implies that you are revealing his hidden agenda. As coaster was great to point out with that video, Obama actually campaigns on the idea that students will become involved with community service.
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It's down to Hillary, Obama and McCain and I equally despise all 3 of them for the position. I have not a damned thing to gain anymore regarding this election.
They still represent three different courses for the country to take. Your interest is your own interest, and if the difference between Obama and McCain isn't enough of an incentive to take interest, then that's fine. There is always the possibility that Obama will not fufill the expectations, but I already know what I would get with McCain, and Obama will, at the very least be somewhat better than McCain and his policy of perpetual war and worsening global tensions in a very tumultous, delicate time. Either way, America's intervention in the world's affairs will become less prominent, and the world will rely less on America's wealth, but I at least prefer that America doesn't have to collapse and suffer for it. Obama's stance on Iraq was campaigned on before and he's campaigning on it again, and if he didn't deliver on his promise then he would lose everything that he has established for himself. He's not stupid. That money will start going into making America better. That's all I need to know to submit my absentee ballot for Obama.
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Do you have anything to contribute about this plan of his or not?
I already did. It is not my fault if you cannot read, or cannot comprehend what you read. I try my best to make sure you understand what I am saying, but there certainly is a point of no return as far as that goes.
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If you think our public educational system is a place to be mandating community service for middle and high school kids then state why.
I already did. Go back and read again. I even cited specific examples of myself participating in community service in school. Go back and read.
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I think that is a personal values issue that belongs to families and churches to teach for the acts to have any real meaning.
Nonsense. Community service that is filtered through the church is divisive due to the inherent nature that the organization that is providing the community service considers itself seperate from the rest of the community due to their religious beliefs. Families often don't organize in a way to provide community service, but there are some organizations such as Boy Scouts that provide opportunities for community service. I think there is a common trend amongst children in school to make fun of people that belong to organizations such as that. Schools are secular and all-inclusive, thus the community service that can be provided through schools, as well as the educational opportunities that as much brings to children, is capable of being most effective. Also, teachers receive certified education from colleges, so the quality of the community service can be ensured through higher education. It is a way to ensure that standards are met in community service, because, as lonestar says, will they just be sending these kids into the streets of Baltimore unsupervised?
The answer is of course not.
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U.S, students are falling far behind the academic achievements of other first world countries and Obama wants our kids to divert academic school time to manual labor servitude as a solution. He wants to further contribute to the dumbing down of America in my eyes for proposing this!
Well then, in your extensive, unbiased research of Obama ( ) you've no doubt noticed that he also has a comprehensive plan of reforming education to restore America's standing on the planet as a world leader in education. Feel free to share with us what his comprehensive educational plan is. If you ask me, I might do so later.
You were the one, of course, that couldn't see how giving teachers more incentive to be teachers through tax breaks mattered, because teachers are only 1% of the population, and you had to ask, what about the rest of the 99% of us?
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Raise your own kid to be an unpaid servant of the government if you want too.
I'd rather raise my own kid to be an individual. Community service doesn't make one less an individual, it strengthens the individual, and benefits the community as well. If children are already going to school, they might as well get a better education and help others in the process.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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blackegg
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8059127 - 02/23/08 02:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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OH MY GOD OBAMA'S GONNA SUCK OUR CHILDREN INTO SPACESHIPS AND ENSLAVE THEM!! TELL EVERYONE!!!!
My 1/2 assed, completely knee-jerk, common sense guess is that you can *volunteer* to do this community service in order to get money for college.
You're still free to not go to college or not volunteer.
<<<Edit: Video already posted.>>>
...and I think it's a great idea to give kids the opportunity to volunteer in a Peace Corp type organization to earn college tuition.
I know for damn sure that visiting some third world country as a kid would've given me a whole different perspective on America's 'unique position' in the world.
Edited by blackegg (02/23/08 02:38 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8059135 - 02/23/08 02:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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gettinjiggywithit said: If you yourself had one, you would realize that scrubbing graffitti off of walls and pushing seniors in wheel chairs for walks does nothing to help Americas school children to compete in math, science, business finance, marketing, trade, technology, critical thinking and creativeinnovation in a global marketplace when they get out of school.
Wow, I hadn't realized that.. I thought the senior citizens would share their reflections on quantam mechanics, chaos theory, and Plato, and that scrubbing walls would create a meditative state in which one would realize the energy that exists within the act.
You have to realize that this is one aspect of a comprehensive education reform plan. It is only so many hours of a year. It probably wouldn't even be that many hours, but that he is simply setting an idealistic goal to inspire at least some amount of hours being achieved.
School isn't just about learning facts and becoming a computer for some job, jiggy.
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Mandated community service will better acedemic education in America how?
By giving children life experience in the community, receiving opportunities to develop skills interacting with others and taking on new tasks and working together to create positive results. Creating aware beings who are full of character facilitates further education.
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Ignoring acedemia during school hours in favor of picking up trash along the side of the road is a damn good way to stay ignorant and yes, I fear this plan will contribute to the ignorance of Americas public school population.
Yes, exactly, you fear that, and it obscures your ability to understand the role that community service plays in education. Children aren't computers to be programmed with facts and numbers to be prepared for some job. Giving children a dose of reality in school has a lot of potential for bettering reality. God knows they don't get it at home, watching television with their parents, even though the television claims they do. The opportunity for those who are good parents and for individuals who are aware enough to be their own free person to do as they wish hasn't been removed. I see no reason to think that public education could not become more comprehensive, diverse, and involve something such as community service. Again, referring to the time we went out to take care of the trout stream, that was a fun day. It was nice to get out of the classroom to go be out in nature and listen and see the water and chill out, just as it is fun to go on field trips to go to cool places, or to watch a movie in class that seeks to educate in a different manner, or to walk alongside a river on a beautiful day to go see a water treatment plant, or to go to a local artist studio and see some paintings, or to hold a musical recital. Actually getting involved in the world around you is a great way to learn, and it pays great dividends in developing a person who will be more capable of learning stuff like math or science. Not only will they learn it, but they will hold a practical sense of it, which is what I think is most important.
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I rest my case.
Oh, you rest your pointlessly judgemental case? Someone who is stoned is more perceptive of the sensory information that their body and mind produce. Those who have become disciplined in the practice are probably more capable of thinking or going about day-to-day activities than most sober, unaware individuals are. Of all the places to present such ignorant prejudice.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8059141 - 02/23/08 02:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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blackegg said: I know for damn sure that visiting some third world country as a kid would've given me a whole different perspective on America's 'unique position' in the world.
Exactly. Most Americans have never left their country, hell, a lot of them have not even left the state they live in. 
The simple fact that he has lived in Indonesia and has all of this background seeing the planet has to count for something in regards to his policies on the rest of the planet, and, in fact, it does... his foreign policy is very reasonable.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8059152 - 02/23/08 02:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Most kids today live in bubbles, floating through life on their cell phones, disconnected from the unpleasant realities surrounding them. How can this be a bad thing?
It's not like they are being forced to labor for large corporations in sweat factories.
They will get more than they give.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zorbman]
#8059193 - 02/23/08 03:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Does it not net benefit society as a whole?
Whom does it hurt?
Does it actually take away from their studies anymore than any other extracuricular activity?
Is providing a service to society (which in turn supports children) a bad thing?
Should a society only have rights without responsibilities?
Do you realize you are describing communism?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/communism
If that's okay with you then fine.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8059208 - 02/23/08 03:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have one thing to say to you ego maniac.
You never asked me for a link related to Obama in here Capt Klink.
Zorb did the other day, and I gave him one and I thought back to that when I made that crack.
Get over yourself and get over your delusion that you are on my mind when I make posts here. There are other members I have discussions with you know.
You love Obama. You want your children to be free servants of the government.
FINE.
Maybe some people here don't. This is for them.
If you want to change their minds about it give it your best argument.
You won't be able to talk me into accepting communism.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8059242 - 02/23/08 03:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: I have one thing to say to you ego maniac.
Quote:
You never asked me for a link related to Obama in here Capt Klink.
Yes, I have, multiple times, you simply don't read, or, if you do, you can't comprehend it, or you simply have a horrible mental recall. There is plenty of discussion regarding this in the Michelle Obama thread.
Quote:
Zorb did the other day, and I gave him one and I thought back to that when I made that crack.
Get over yourself and get over your delusion that you are on my mind when I make posts here. There are other members I have discussions with you know.
Don't be coy. We've recently been enagaing in heated discussion on the topic. You might have other discussions with other members but you've had them with me as well and I am an Obama supporter. Your attitude is quite apparent in your posts.
Its all regardless, because I've specifically engaged you in discussion on all points of the topics you've raised and you fail to actually say anything relevant to that discussion.
Quote:
You love Obama. You want your children to be free servants of the government.
FINE.
No, it is not the case, and I've already went to a great length to clearly demonstrate to anyone who is capable of a seventh-grade reading comprehension level my perspective on the matter, and how it is not congruent in the slightest with wanting children to be free servants of the government.
All you have demonstrated is your ignorance and your fear-based emotionalism on the subject.
Quote:
You won't be able to talk me into accepting communism.
Of course not, you'd rather live in your little world in which you don't participate in honest discussion of ideas and you don't have to try to understand. Sure, label it communism in a negative connotation. Maybe you can burn some witches while you are at it. Nothing like torturing Christians out of ignorance and equating community service with child labor and government servitude.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8059274 - 02/23/08 03:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: I could expect somone with the user name crumb bum, to find a nanny government to wipe your ass for you, as an ideal. 
The planet already has commie countries with dictators. Ever thought about immigrating to North Korea?:)
I don't appreciate anyone trying to turn my Free country into one, including Barrack.
Wow. You're really just kind of a miserable debater. You ACTUALLY went to the point of using an Ad Hominem argument about my SCREEN NAME, and then ignored most of the rest of what I'd said in favor of actually using the old "Well if you like it like that you can move to Cuba but ain't no one gonna change my 'Merica!"
Your FREE country? You're on a website where the primary discussion revolves around doing a LARGE variety of things for which this government would KIDNAP and BLACKMAIL us for doing. Any one of us, should our actually prosecuteable offenses be calculated, would probably spend the rest of our lives in jail. Shit, I'd probably get more than 100 hours of community service for the paltry ammount of weed I've got on me now. Can you IMAGINE if the police were efficient enough to discover and charge any of us, as they'd like to?
That's just the most topical example, there are hundreds more.
Even if we were somehow "Free", how, in a capitalist society, are we ever free from labor? We actually have less choice about our actual jobs then we do about community service. As an American, you'll rise to roughly your level. If you're dumb you do manual, unskilled labor or service. If you're smart you'll go to college and enter into the middle class and do some vaguely intellectually involved job. If you're smart and ammoral, you'll enter into the upper middle class, and do less work. If you're dumb or smart and born into the upper class, you'll do little or no work, and any that you do will be chiefly symbolic. The options outside of this scheme are unattractive, difficult, and shunned, and rightfully so, as they all represent some kind of rejection of this system that, if practiced as maxim, would cause the collapse of the whole. We have the illusion, within capitalism, that we EARN things. Rather the opposite, we have only what others give us, and it's the ultimate goal of capitalism to minimalize that number. Your boss can't deny you your promised wage, more than that? Doesn't matter how hard you work. What matters is if the people who have more are willing to give some of it to you, to ensure further loyalty.
So if you can outline for me what exactly about America's econimic system makes us free, or how free our legal system is, than go ahead.
And how quickly you resort to claiming that this will entail the government holding our hands and wiping our asses. How does that even APPLY to this situation outside from being a general put down of liberal thinking? Do you REALLY think that you're so independent? If you don't want any help from a government, go live in the woods! As long as we reguard and movement along a continuum as a catapualting towards the most extreme conclusion (I.E. assuming that a favor for minor socialism is essentially a loyalty oath to Stalin), then why don't you just go totally independent and live off the grid without government protection or manufactured goods?
We agree to governments because we want a big group to help us. There's no other reason for a government. ALL government spending is socialism and liberalism. We're the wealthiest nation on the earth.
Why, exactly, is one person's right to make money more valuable than another persons need to eat food or get medical attention?
Ultimately why I support this is that in the best case scenario high school and college kids will learn to do nice things for other people without expecting too much in return, and will perhaps learn to enjoy spending time with the elderly or cleaning up the park and become less economically minded and more concerned with what they can do to help people around them. And in the worst case, they can learn to work for hours at a time and to ultimately have nothing to show for it, which will be the pattern of the rest of their lives.
There are countless other benefits along the gamut. After a few generations, it would promote a better work ethic and a generally stronger work force.
As for the poster who compared this to the draft.... come on. I mean, really, talk about stupid emotive comparisons. In one, we took a generation of kids and sent them overseas to kill and die. This plan proposes we take a generation of kids and send them into their own neighborhoods to clean stuff. You can shout "Forced Labor is Forced Labor" all you like, but these, and slavery, are qualitatively different things, and it's a fairly basic bit of sophistry to try and equivocate them with one another. One could just as easily take any two events with similar components, focus on the right elements, and erroneously equate the two. Your argument hinges on the recognition and focus on the factors of the situation you've been trained to see as important. "Community Service". The first thing you see isn't what they'll be doing, or why. It's that they won't get paid. Really, in our society, what's more interesting, what you do for a living, or how much it pays? Who has more in common, a rich doctor and a poor nurse, or a rich doctor and a rich lawyer?
I mean honestly, as old, stodgy and conservative as you're trying to come off, I'm surprised you're opposed to forcing the teenagers and snotty twenty somethings to do some chores round the nation to build 'em some character...
I reiterate the point, I dislike teenagers. And I really won't give a fuck about spending a month leafblowing the park, but snotty, preppy and emo little teenagers will be miserable, and I'll be there to enjoy it, so this all works out really well for me. I'll work part time smoking weed behind trees, feeding bread to ducks, and leaf blowing. It'd be cool if the park was a little cleaner, and the teenagers were a little less happy and a little more humble.
Edited by crumblebum (02/23/08 03:56 AM)
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8059377 - 02/23/08 05:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Edited by blackegg (02/29/08 05:59 AM)
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8059458 - 02/23/08 07:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I went to a private high school with 20 hours mandatory community service each year.
Most of the kids didn't do it and got someone to just sign the slips(teachers included) Some did it and generally hated it Some did activities for their own reasons that happen to give hours. A few did so much as to try to win an award.
I got my hours mostly thanks to breast cancer and the YMCA which I would have been doing whether I needed hours or not. From my experience, mandatory community service will do little to nothing other than getting kids to hate school even more.
I think an optional part time job would be better for kids than mandatory community service.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
Edited by d33p (02/23/08 07:48 AM)
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: d33p]
#8059486 - 02/23/08 07:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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An optional part time job isn't going to pay them nearly 100 dollars an hour though.
And I think it's been pretty well established by now...*it's not mandatory*.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: d33p]
#8059489 - 02/23/08 07:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Its really simple. If you believe in big government and that the government has any right under law to make our children do work for them in their school time, then vote Obama.
If however you want less government and the government out of your children's education, out of your personal life, the lives of your children, then vote for Ron Paul.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8059495 - 02/23/08 07:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackegg said: An optional part time job isn't going to pay them nearly 100 dollars an hour though.
And I think it's been pretty well established by now...*it's not mandatory*.
I think its one step in the direction to being mandatory. Its just another system of control. I want my kids to have freedom and individual liberty.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
#8059528 - 02/23/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So home school 'em... what the big *to do* about?
that's the only way you're not going to have any governement telling your kids what to think.
here in Texas they don't even have to test out to graduate...or so I've been told.
Edit:Quote:
Its really simple.
There is nothing simple about politics IMO.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
Edited by blackegg (02/23/08 08:17 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8059539 - 02/23/08 08:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
crumblebum said:
Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: I could expect somone with the user name crumb bum, to find a nanny government to wipe your ass for you, as an ideal. 
"The planet already has commie countries with dictators. Ever thought about immigrating to North Korea?:)
I don't appreciate anyone trying to turn my Free country into one, including Barrack.
Wow. You're really just kind of a miserable debater. You ACTUALLY went to the point of using an Ad Hominem argument about my SCREEN NAME, and then ignored most of the rest of what I'd said in favor of actually using the old "Well if you like it like that you can move to Cuba but ain't no one gonna change my 'Merica!"
Your FREE country? You're on a website where the primary discussion revolves around doing a LARGE variety of things for which this government would KIDNAP and BLACKMAIL us for doing. Any one of us, should our actually prosecuteable offenses be calculated, would probably spend the rest of our lives in jail. Shit, I'd probably get more than 100 hours of community service for the paltry ammount of weed I've got on me now. Can you IMAGINE if the police were efficient enough to discover and charge any of us, as they'd like to?
Blame your neighbors, not the gummint. If your neighbors wanted drugs legal they would be. The collective is an ass. The police are just executing the wishes of your neighbors. Quote:
That's just the most topical example, there are hundreds more.
Actually, there are thousands of laws. Tens of thousands, even.Quote:
Even if we were somehow "Free", how, in a capitalist society, are we ever free from labor? No, never, until you die. Do you think, given the fact that labor is necessary for survival, that you should get to sit on your great glorious ass and be fed?
We actually have less choice about our actual jobs then we do about community service. Bullshit. As far as I know we can endeavor to enter any job we can qualify and strive for.
As an American, you'll rise to roughly your level. Well? This is a problem? You take issue with a meritocracy? By the way, you won't if you don't try and if you get a little lucky you may well exceed "Your Level." Whatever that is.
If you're dumb you do manual, unskilled labor or service. If you're smart you'll go to college and enter into the middle class and do some vaguely intellectually involved job. If you're smart and ammoral, you'll enter into the upper middle class, and do less work. If you're dumb or smart and born into the upper class, you'll do little or no work, and any that you do will be chiefly symbolic. How wonderful for you that you think you are somehow entitled to tell me what I can do with my well earned fortune in regards to the life of my children. What a miserably envious victim. Also quite wrong that the children of the very wealthy are all useless Paris Hiltons. What a bigot.
The options outside of this scheme are unattractive, difficult, and shunned, and rightfully so, as they all represent some kind of rejection of this system that, if practiced as maxim, would cause the collapse of the whole. Bullshit
We have the illusion, within capitalism, that we EARN things. Well founded, one might add
Rather the opposite, we have only what others give us, and it's the ultimate goal of capitalism to minimalize that number. What daft crap. First of all, capitalism doesn't have goals. It is a system. Only sentient beings can have goals. And the goal of capitalists is to maximize the benefits for all who achieve. Socialism is the giving system, not capitalism. You don't get given anything in capitalism. Keep that hand out and hope nobody spits in it.
Your boss can't deny you your promised wage, more than that? Doesn't matter how hard you work. What matters is if the people who have more are willing to give some of it to you, to ensure further loyalty. How sad that you have not been able to shop your labor to the highest bidder. Oh. Wait a minute. You were. Perhaps your labor isn't quite worth what you think it is. Too bad.
So if you can outline for me what exactly about America's econimic system makes us free, or how free our legal system is, than go ahead. Somebody seems to be conflating the two senses of free. There's the something for nothing sense and then there's the choice sense. You don't get anything for nothing and you are quite free to do nothing and die. Or sell your labor to the highest bidder, or take less and get something else. I don't see you being marched off to a work farm, like you want my child to do.
And how quickly you resort to claiming that this will entail the government holding our hands and wiping our asses. How does that even APPLY to this situation outside from being a general put down of liberal thinking? Do you REALLY think that you're so independent? If you don't want any help from a government, go live in the woods! As long as we reguard and movement along a continuum as a catapualting towards the most extreme conclusion (I.E. assuming that a favor for minor socialism is essentially a loyalty oath to Stalin), then why don't you just go totally independent and live off the grid without government protection or manufactured goods? So silly, either anarchist or totalitarian socialist. How......nuanced.
We agree to governments because we want a big group to help us. There's no other reason for a government. ALL government spending is socialism and liberalism. We're the wealthiest nation on the earth. Not quite. We agree to government because it is advantageous. It is not advantageous for the population in general to labor to support those who refuse and it is not advantageous to reward all equally. No one will strive except under fear of repression, work camps, etc. and we will collapse into a shithole like the SU and Cuba and N. Korea, China, etc.
Why, exactly, is one person's right to make money more valuable than another persons need to eat food or get medical attention? We currently have a system that takes care of that. Anybody who can't get either of those things has no one to blame but themselves. I haven't seen a conflict, Karl and in fact the people who make money, evil fucks that they are, do pay for these services for the losers. We don't want to pay for their nintendos. Those they can buy for themselves.
Ultimately why I support this is that in the best case scenario high school and college kids will learn to do nice things for other people without expecting too much in return Shouldn't that be up to them? , and will perhaps learn to enjoy spending time with the elderly or cleaning up the park and become less economically minded and more concerned with what they can do to help people around them. Why should they be compelled to help anyone? What about the people who are being paid to help the elderly and clean up the parks? What of them? Back to the streets?
And in the worst case, they can learn to work for hours at a time and to ultimately have nothing to show for it, which will be the pattern of the rest of their lives. I'm so sorry that you have become such a bitter person and that you have nothing to show for your life.
There are countless other benefits along the gamut. After a few generations, it would promote a better work ethic and a generally stronger work force. "Arbeit macht frei". You have zero evidence to back this up and in fact there is plenty of evidence that unrewarded work leads to a diminution of the work effort. Except vodka distillers.
As for the poster who compared this to the draft.... come on. I didn't compare it to the draft. I asked if you supported the draft.
I mean, really, talk about stupid emotive comparisons. In one, we took a generation of kids and sent them overseas to kill and die. This plan proposes we take a generation of kids and send them into their own neighborhoods to clean stuff. You can shout "Forced Labor is Forced Labor" all you like, but these, and slavery, are qualitatively different things, Qualitatively different? No, they are quantitatively different. It's only a question of degree, not kind.
and it's a fairly basic bit of sophistry to try and equivocate them with one another. One could just as easily take any two events with similar components, focus on the right elements, and erroneously equate the two. Your argument hinges on the recognition and focus on the factors of the situation you've been trained to see as important. "Community Service". The first thing you see isn't what they'll be doing, or why. It's that they won't get paid. Really, in our society, what's more interesting, what you do for a living, or how much it pays? Who has more in common, a rich doctor and a poor nurse, or a rich doctor and a rich lawyer? So what? I know there is some egalitarian ideal swirling around in your brain but life reality is that "All People are Created Equal" is a legal doctrine and not an actual description of any kind of reality. Otherwise we would all be taking turns playing shortstop for the NY Yankees. I would have the exact same objection to this community service jive if they WERE getting paid.
I mean honestly, as old, stodgy and conservative as you're trying to come off, I'm surprised you're opposed to forcing the teenagers and snotty twenty somethings to do some chores round the nation to build 'em some character... Well, this is the thing, as a conservative, I am the anti-fascist. It is the left that has all of the fascist tendencies. Build character? Character by whose standards? Yours? I don't think so, Karl
I reiterate the point, I dislike teenagers. And I really won't give a fuck about spending a month leafblowing the park, but snotty, preppy and emo little teenagers will be miserable, and I'll be there to enjoy it, so this all works out really well for me. I'll work part time smoking weed behind trees, feeding bread to ducks, and leaf blowing. It'd be cool if the park was a little cleaner, and the teenagers were a little less happy and a little more humble.
So essentially you want teenagers to work because you are an envious crank and want everybody to be as miserable as you are. Your interest is not in improving anyone's existence it is to make everybody as miserable as yourself. As perfect an encapsulation of the left as I have ever seen.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8059559 - 02/23/08 08:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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They're not receiving $4000 anyways. They're receiving $4000 in tax breaks, which is useless for high schoolers and college students. More useful would be a loan forgiveness program.
Mandatory volunteer work is contrary to the idea of volunteer work.
From the Ayn Rand Institute:
Quote:
How is it that ARI, which opposes servitude and volunteerism, offers volunteer opportunities? ARI supports volunteering so long as it is done selfishly and … voluntarily!
What ARI repudiates is the mandatory “volunteering” (a contradiction in terms) or “community service” that some schools require of their students as a condition of graduation. Such requirements are meant to instill in young minds a sense of altruistic duty, i.e., unchosen obligation, toward others.
The morality of altruism holds that the good consists of service to others—not the pursuit of one’s own values and interests. On this view, a student who miserably dishes out broth in a soup kitchen is morally superior to a student who spends his afternoons studying in the library so that he can one day become a doctor. That is the perverse view ARI opposes.
Forced “volunteering” requires that students sacrifice their time and judgment by demanding that they devote time to causes they may not support. In contrast, ARI’s volunteer program is truly voluntary. Our volunteers support our mission and selfishly choose to invest some of their time helping us accomplish it. It is not an act of self-sacrifice—it is a means of pursuing their own values.
That is how volunteer work should be done; the same as employment. A mutually consenting contract in which both parties are granted a benefit.
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8059563 - 02/23/08 08:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The reward for community service? They give the money they stole from you back to you when you're earning enough to get it back. Fucking ridiculous!
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8059583 - 02/23/08 08:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you realize you are describing communism?
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8059906 - 02/23/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: No, never, until you die. Do you think, given the fact that labor is necessary for survival, that you should get to sit on your great glorious ass and be fed?
Yes, it is possible to be free from labor if wealth is invested, conserved, and utilized effectively. Retirement savings is an example of this.
Quote:
What daft crap. First of all, capitalism doesn't have goals. It is a system. Only sentient beings can have goals. And the goal of capitalists is to maximize the benefits for all who achieve. Socialism is the giving system, not capitalism. You don't get given anything in capitalism. Keep that hand out and hope nobody spits in it.
Well, you two might be arguing about socialism, but I'd just like to enter into this debate but represent the view of Obama's campaign. With Obama, we aren't talking about socialism. Obama has a pragmatic approach to the economy that is more respective of the free-market than the Bush administration has been.
With Obama, what you will see is a reform of the framework within which corporations can operate, and to also lessen the collusion that some industries have had with the government in order to bring more competition into their industry, such as with pharmaceuticals.
The times that America has been most successful as an economy is when there has been a strong middle class. The role of government is to form the framework within which the economy operates. Obama's policies seem to be the best for what the country needs right now regarding that, not hypocritical lobbyist for the telecommunications industry McCain.
Quote:
How sad that you have not been able to shop your labor to the highest bidder. Oh. Wait a minute. You were. Perhaps your labor isn't quite worth what you think it is. Too bad.
Obama's said something interesting, which was that, if you work in America, you should be able to afford to live. There was a time in this country when one partner in a marriage could work a full-time job and the other could stay at home, and they could afford to own a house and a car. As the role the government plays in providing the framework for the economy changes towards policies in which the well-being of the working class is not accounted for, the more people who do work struggle to make ends meet, no failure of their own, and the more the economy worsens. Corporate interest is not in interest of the well-being of the people to enough extent to ensure their well-being - that is why the people have government, it is their tool to protect the interest of everyone. Also, giving assistance to the poor is a wise move when it is done in an effective manner because then they can become working middle class as well.
Quote:
There's the something for nothing sense and then there's the choice sense. You don't get anything for nothing and you are quite free to do nothing and die. Or sell your labor to the highest bidder, or take less and get something else. I don't see you being marched off to a work farm, like you want my child to do.
Its a question of the way government outlines the shape of the economy, and in whose interest they act. There has to be a balance between acting in corporate interest and acting in people interest. As has been said, Obama will have business at the table, but business will not have boughten all the chairs.
Quote:
It is not advantageous for the population in general to labor to support those who refuse and it is not advantageous to reward all equally.
It is advantageous for people who have faced hardships or inabilities to be worked with to become productive again. Its not like people just go crawl into the bushes and die if they can't, for whatever reason, make ends meet. Have you ever heard of crime?
No, people should not all be rewarded equally, but no one has ever spoke of that, at least regarding Obama's campaign for President.
Quote:
We currently have a system that takes care of that. Anybody who can't get either of those things has no one to blame but themselves.
That would have to assume the fallacy of equal opportunity. No one has proposed regarding Obama that he would do anything but provide everyone an opportunity to generate their own wealth.
Quote:
Why should they be compelled to help anyone? What about the people who are being paid to help the elderly and clean up the parks? What of them? Back to the streets?
I don't really know that community service means that park employees and nurses in a nursing home will be replaced.
We're talking about spending time learning from an older person who is just happy to have someone to talk to, or helping make soup somewhere for some homeless or something. Why should they be compelled? Why not? If school can give you a test on mathematics, it can give you an assignment to go plant wildflowers alongside a road somewhere. Perhaps essays would be written. I don't comprehend why community service in public schools would be such a bad thing.
Quote:
"Arbeit macht frei". You have zero evidence to back this up and in fact there is plenty of evidence that unrewarded work leads to a diminution of the work effort.
We aren't talking about work here. We aren't talking about labor here. We're talking about community service. Its within an educational context, especially if it is within public schools. Its amazing how crazy some of you are.
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Well, this is the thing, as a conservative, I am the anti-fascist. It is the left that has all of the fascist tendencies. Build character? Character by whose standards? Yours? I don't think so, Karl
Nonsense. Fascism can be of the right (Hitler) or some kind of corporatism, bipartisan, middle of the road fascism.
Quote:
So essentially you want teenagers to work because you are an envious crank and want everybody to be as miserable as you are. Your interest is not in improving anyone's existence it is to make everybody as miserable as yourself. As perfect an encapsulation of the left as I have ever seen.
That does seem to be the case with that attitude, but I don't think it is representative of Obama or his positions.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8059966 - 02/23/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You're distracted by the finer detail and aren't looking at the big picture. Obama is ALL about socialism. You're a fool if you think that he isn't.
Tax cuts for the rich and giving more government assitance to the poorer is not the way to save the economy from the road it is taking. Ron Paul has recently given all Americans a lesson in economics. You should look it up if you really want to save the middle class and stop a large government run economy that will always favor the rich with its economic policies.
Communism doesn't work. Giving the money from the richer classes to the lower classes doesn't work. Giving 'tax breaks' to any division of class doesn't work. We have seen all kinds of bogus solutions throughout the 20th century. Now its time to get real and change the whole economic structure back to the way it should be.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
#8059981 - 02/23/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Which candidate is a viable alternative to Obama then? and why aren't you spending time promoting him .........or her ??
Can I suggest an answer for you? It's because you don't really have an alternate!
 ...so you come in here tracking your shitty memes all over the place from whatever militant, Koresh-ian Con World you crawled out of ... expecting people not to confront you with reality.
I'm being facetious of course
 but... really.
what POSSIBLE alternatives are you suggesting?
because I for one have yet to hear any!
 okay, I'm done for now.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8059991 - 02/23/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Its not a popularity contest. Its about sound money and economic policies. You do your own research into which candidate has the economic policies that'll save us from our current road. I
I'm not here to tell anyone who to vote for.
The more educated you are about economics the more obvious it is which candidate has the right idea. I recently had an economic wake up call from one candidate but its not my job to tell you who to vote for. You have to come to your own decision about that.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
Edited by bradmassive (02/23/08 04:10 PM)
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
#8060052 - 02/23/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well, apparently I'm not educated enough to see how obvious it all is.
Also, I wasn't asking.. you, of all people, who I should vote for. It's clear as day to me that we see things differently. No, I was asking who you think is better than Obama.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
Edited by blackegg (02/23/08 11:55 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8060068 - 02/23/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: No, never, until you die. Do you think, given the fact that labor is necessary for survival, that you should get to sit on your great glorious ass and be fed?
Yes, it is possible to be free from labor if wealth is invested, conserved, and utilized effectively. Retirement savings is an example of this.
Managing your money is work. Quote:
Quote:
What daft crap. First of all, capitalism doesn't have goals. It is a system. Only sentient beings can have goals. And the goal of capitalists is to maximize the benefits for all who achieve. Socialism is the giving system, not capitalism. You don't get given anything in capitalism. Keep that hand out and hope nobody spits in it.
Well, you two might be arguing about socialism, but I'd just like to enter into this debate but represent the view of Obama's campaign. With Obama, we aren't talking about socialism. Obama has a pragmatic approach to the economy that is more respective of the free-market than the Bush administration has been.
With Obama, what you will see is a reform of the framework within which corporations can operate, and to also lessen the collusion that some industries have had with the government in order to bring more competition into their industry, such as with pharmaceuticals.
The times that America has been most successful as an economy is when there has been a strong middle class. The role of government is to form the framework within which the economy operates. Obama's policies seem to be the best for what the country needs right now regarding that, not hypocritical lobbyist for the telecommunications industry McCain.
Boy was that ever devoid of substance. Much like Obama.Quote:
Quote:
How sad that you have not been able to shop your labor to the highest bidder. Oh. Wait a minute. You were. Perhaps your labor isn't quite worth what you think it is. Too bad.
Obama's said something interesting, which was that, if you work in America, you should be able to afford to live. There was a time in this country when one partner in a marriage could work a full-time job and the other could stay at home, and they could afford to own a house and a car. As the role the government plays in providing the framework for the economy changes towards policies in which the well-being of the working class is not accounted for, the more people who do work struggle to make ends meet, no failure of their own, and the more the economy worsens. Corporate interest is not in interest of the well-being of the people to enough extent to ensure their well-being - that is why the people have government, it is their tool to protect the interest of everyone. Also, giving assistance to the poor is a wise move when it is done in an effective manner because then they can become working middle class as well.
There was a time in this country when women couldn't work. That time was the good old days you refer to. Minorities were squelched as well. This romanticizing of the fifties and sixties is quite overblown. It wasn't all wine and roses then.
For somebody who seems to accept the notion of saving and investing you sure do seem to think those entities one can invest in should be somehow subjugated to some greater worker interest. Kind cuts that nut right off.Quote:
Quote:
There's the something for nothing sense and then there's the choice sense. You don't get anything for nothing and you are quite free to do nothing and die. Or sell your labor to the highest bidder, or take less and get something else. I don't see you being marched off to a work farm, like you want my child to do.
Its a question of the way government outlines the shape of the economy, and in whose interest they act. There has to be a balance between acting in corporate interest and acting in people interest. As has been said, Obama will have business at the table, but business will not have boughten all the chairs. 
More populist crap from the ghost of no policy. Corporate interest is people interest in the purest sense. Who do you think owns corporations? Martians? Gerbils?Quote:
Quote:
It is not advantageous for the population in general to labor to support those who refuse and it is not advantageous to reward all equally.
It is advantageous for people who have faced hardships or inabilities to be worked with to become productive again. Its not like people just go crawl into the bushes and die if they can't, for whatever reason, make ends meet. Have you ever heard of crime?
I said refuse. There are quite enough handouts for the truly unfortunate. In addition, I don't think popping out babies willy nilly with no visible means to support them is a misfortune. That is not something that happens to you, it is something you choose to do. It is also the single greatest cause of poverty.Quote:
No, people should not all be rewarded equally, but no one has ever spoke of that, at least regarding Obama's campaign for President.
That goes to crumble's whine that he has nothing to show for his labors. Not everything is about the Messiah, doncha know?Quote:
Quote:
We currently have a system that takes care of that. Anybody who can't get either of those things has no one to blame but themselves.
That would have to assume the fallacy of equal opportunity. No one has proposed regarding Obama that he would do anything but provide everyone an opportunity to generate their own wealth.
No it doesn't at all, I was referring to available assistance. There are more than enough programs, run horribly inefficiently, at great enough expense. Will Obama wave his magic wand and make bureaucracy efficient? And the confiscatory taxes necessary to pay for his grand populist vision are quite a disincentive to strive.Quote:
Quote:
Why should they be compelled to help anyone? What about the people who are being paid to help the elderly and clean up the parks? What of them? Back to the streets?
I don't really know that community service means that park employees and nurses in a nursing home will be replaced. 
Of course it does. When you have slaves why pay workers?Quote:
We're talking about spending time learning from an older person who is just happy to have someone to talk to, or helping make soup somewhere for some homeless or something. Why should they be compelled? Why not? If school can give you a test on mathematics, it can give you an assignment to go plant wildflowers alongside a road somewhere. Perhaps essays would be written. I don't comprehend why community service in public schools would be such a bad thing. 
Wow, just wow. No matter how you dress it up it is still compulsory labor. Schools are already too far into this kind of crap but that isn't what is being discussed here. What about home school kids? We are talking the government compelling community service. Bullshit. I'll go spend some time with a geezer and plant wildflowers if I want to. If you tell me or my kid we have to you will find one obstinate bastard telling you to suck my dick.Quote:
Quote:
"Arbeit macht frei". You have zero evidence to back this up and in fact there is plenty of evidence that unrewarded work leads to a diminution of the work effort.
We aren't talking about work here. We aren't talking about labor here. We're talking about community service. Its within an educational context, especially if it is within public schools. Its amazing how crazy some of you are. 
If you don't voluntarily do it, it is work. Not LOL is how amazingly fascist the left is.Quote:
Quote:
Well, this is the thing, as a conservative, I am the anti-fascist. It is the left that has all of the fascist tendencies. Build character? Character by whose standards? Yours? I don't think so, Karl
Nonsense. Fascism can be of the right (Hitler) or some kind of corporatism, bipartisan, middle of the road fascism.
Hitler was a socialist.Quote:
Quote:
So essentially you want teenagers to work because you are an envious crank and want everybody to be as miserable as you are. Your interest is not in improving anyone's existence it is to make everybody as miserable as yourself. As perfect an encapsulation of the left as I have ever seen.
That does seem to be the case with that attitude, but I don't think it is representative of Obama or his positions.
I repeat, not everything is about the Obamessiah.
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8060086 - 02/23/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackegg said: Well, apparently I'm not educated enough to see how obvious it all is.
Also, I wasn't asking.. you, of all people, who I should vote for. It's clear as day to me that we see things differently. No, I was asking who is better than Obama.
\
Who is better than Obama? What do you mean? Your question doesn't make sense without context.
I think Obama is probably the lesser of two evils if we go by what he has to say (not that I put much stock in that anymore looking at his voting record).
If you haven't taken a look at what Ron Paul has to say yet (especially on foreign and economic policy) then I urge you to do so.
That is all I have to say.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
#8060127 - 02/23/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Who is better than Obama? What do you mean? Your question doesn't make sense without context.
Well, let me see I believe we were talking about economics.
but let me check.
Quote:
Its not a popularity contest. Its about sound money and economic policies. You do your own research into which candidate has the economic policies that will save us from our current road. I'm not here to tell anyone who to vote for. The more educated you are about economics the more obvious it is which candidate has the right idea. As I've said, I recently had an economic wake up call from one candidate in particular, but its not my job to tell you who to vote for. You have to come to your own intelligent decision about that.
Yep, economics.
And speaking of not making sense without context...what 'current road' othat we need saving from are you talking about?
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8060137 - 02/23/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'll have to take that answer later, peace.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
#8060272 - 02/23/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Edited by Luddite (02/23/08 01:38 PM)
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8061013 - 02/23/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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zappaisgod
Somewhere between calling me "Karl", resorting to ad hominem arguments, and actually taking time to reply to the sarcastic, humorous points, you've lost any pretense of being a serious thinker. You've got a touch of rationality to you, but your need to be right overpowers everything else.
Your seriously using all the procrapitalism anticommunist slogans of the baby boomer gen, along with all the emotive baggage.
COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK
Lets examine this common assertion.
How, exactly, do you know? The oldest communist systems on the planet are less than 60 years old. Any idea what european capitalism was like in the first 60 years? Has one been able to develop while not being targeted by one the largest nations in the world by sanctions and embargos?
And yet, most people seem to think it's a sufficient counter argument to shout that communism doesn't work, and cite the USSR as an example, while ignoring all the capitalist nations that have collapsed in the meantime.
Don't claim communism doesn't work, because you don't know, because no one does. Until actual data exists, that is to say, a communist nation surviving more than a few generations and becoming sufficient without harrassment, the subject is academic, and has been well outlined by academia.
And yeah. I'm a socialist. And a communist. I think we should share our resources. CAPITALISM dosen't work! Can you seriously ignore the direction it's all going? No one shops their labor around anymore, they scramble for whatever they can get.
And...
Ron Paul?
C'mon, really?
I mean, it's enough of a stretch to hope that a socialist negro from chicago or a scallywag dyke from arkansas can make it, but an independent? By the time the election comes around, less than 20% of the population will have heard of him, much less be willing to vote for him.
Not that I think it's a good thing, two party politics is bullshit, but just the same, Ron Paul supporters are dreaming, even more so than Obama supporters.
I mean, we're going up against a white old southern war hero.
So really, why are we bothering to have this discussion? I bet they're already re embroidering everything with McKains initials.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8061067 - 02/23/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
No one shops their labor around anymore, they scramble for whatever they can get.
Nonsense. If you have a marketable skill or good personal skills, you will be able to find a job that suits you.
Immediately after graduating from college last year I was lined up with 5 job offers in 3 different fields of work. All of them were substantially more than the average graduate makes yearly.
If you are worth a damn and have planned your crucial years (18-22) carefully, you will have no problem finding a job.
Also, it makes me happy to know that my pay if not being distributed to people who didn't work half as hard as I did over the past years.
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marshalldylan1
Stranger


Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2,485
Last seen: 13 years, 23 hours
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
#8061073 - 02/23/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why the fuck college kids?
I'm busy enough as it is.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8061079 - 02/23/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think capitalism works fabulously well. And the fact that Communism can't seem to last more than a couple of generations even is quite the indictment. They keep crumbling one after another. N. Korea clearly being the garden spot execption.
I shop my labor. Most people do. I can't stand Ron Paul. And I'm sorry you have such hate.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8061225 - 02/23/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Can't we all just come together and dislike the youth of today? Hell, I disliked teenagers even when I was a teenager!
We, as a society, need to dislike some group. Hating foreigners leads to problems, and teens are whiny and think everyone hates them anyway, so they'd handle it fine!
My Platform: I'll concede to capitalism in general, if you guys concede to mild, symbolic persecution of teenagers.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8061239 - 02/23/08 04:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8061293 - 02/23/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's hard to get a good baby sandwich these days, since they shut down all the midwestern baby ranches.
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8061456 - 02/23/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I support it. Too many fat fucking kids jerking off. They need to support their community and country and maybe get some benefits out of it (College money).
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (02/23/08 05:05 PM)
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: downforpot]
#8061810 - 02/23/08 06:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Luddite]
#8061855 - 02/23/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If I made a photoshop of Hitler eating a footlong seafood sensation, would that be a good counterpoint to eating at Subway?
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Luddite]
#8061864 - 02/23/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Luddite said:
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8061964 - 02/23/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So giving tax incentives to students for doing community service is slavery and communism? Don't you think you are over-reacting? What about Peace Corps? By your rationale, we have been a communist country since WWII, when the GI bill was created to give returning vets a chance to go school.How is it going to affect you, whatsoever, if student's have the choice to get a tax break by doing some extra work?
If Obama really was trying to create mandatory community service for everyone I would be the first in line to criticize him. But you blatantly mischaracterized the situation and tried to panic everyone into thinking he is a dictator. Take a look at what you have become...you are no longer interested in being truthful.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Snork
Stranger

Registered: 09/23/07
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gluke bastid]
#8062171 - 02/23/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You know, for a site I thought would have open minded rational people, this thread reads a lot like a Fox News comment section. I think a couple of people here have already explained this policy enough that anyone who isn't unbearably biased will at least understand (not neccessarily agree with) the policy.
I'm surprised at the resistance this community has for community service. You know, the interconnectedness drugs often reveal in life isn't just an illusion. That's still there even when your sober. Helping others is helping yourself.
Anyway, my two cents...
To those complaining that having high school students do community service as part of school is somehow slavery, or a waste of time... I'm a few years out of highschool. There are SO many wasted hours of drivvel that we learn (and I went to a pretty good public HS) I'm sure there's room to accomidate this. Second, HS is mandatory. Gym is often mandatory. If they can MANDATE that you show up to a building at 8 am, and make you run laps around a track I see no new boundaries being pushed here. What it doesn't seem to specifiy is if this would be during school hours. I don't think it should be something the student should be responsible for outside of school hours. Meaning... the student gets to leave the confines of the school for a while. Many studnets would see this as a good thing.
As far as the college aspect of this goes... I'm glad to see more government assistance that doesn't include MILITARY service.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Snork]
#8062384 - 02/23/08 09:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Pandurn
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8062422 - 02/23/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Managing your money is work.
In the sense that any sort of process that a human being carries out is an expenditure in energy, I guess it is work. We aren't talking about the scientific definition of work, though, but rather labor. Community service isn't labor. Its education.
Quote:
Boy was that ever devoid of substance. Much like Obama.
I was speaking in a general sense. What I was saying with that is that the laws have been changed by the government to give corporations far too much advantage, from the local to the federal level. My point is that a free market works most effectively, but that the economic policy we have now is not a free market. Everything from our international trade agreements to our local tax breaks for the large corporations that come in to compete with local business has been tilted towards the special interests of the large corporations.
The free market isn't there because of how the framework (the laws) within which corporations have to exist has been bought by those same interests to benefit them. When you do not have a balance that ensures a wealthy middle class, through effective use of government, the country gets into economic trouble. Obama is simply going to reform economic policies to change the rules that corporations play by a little bit to keep a wealthy middle class. We don't need a super-wealthy aristocracy with a greatly expanded poor class that plants potatoes and works in the wealthy's mansions.
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There was a time in this country when women couldn't work. That time was the good old days you refer to. Minorities were squelched as well. This romanticizing of the fifties and sixties is quite overblown. It wasn't all wine and roses then.
Yes, but we are talking economics, not civil rights, so what you are saying here really doesn't pertain to reality.
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For somebody who seems to accept the notion of saving and investing you sure do seem to think those entities one can invest in should be somehow subjugated to some greater worker interest. Kind cuts that nut right off.
Liken it to investing in the economy, if you wish. A stable one is necessary for there to be stability in the savings and investing ventures that one undertakes. A wealthy middle class has to exist for a stable, wealthy economy.
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More populist crap from the ghost of no policy. Corporate interest is people interest in the purest sense. Who do you think owns corporations? Martians? Gerbils?
Who do you think owns government? Have you ever heard of taxes? Corporate interest might be in the interest of securing profit for its shareholders, who are people, but government exists to ensure that the people's interests that supercede simply securing profit are secured, and guess whose tool the government is to accomplish that? The people. Humans are free to use government to make reality more into their interest, and, at the same time, maintain a free market for corporations to be prosperous within. The question is simply of in which manner is the market free.
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I said refuse. There are quite enough handouts for the truly unfortunate. In addition, I don't think popping out babies willy nilly with no visible means to support them is a misfortune. That is not something that happens to you, it is something you choose to do. It is also the single greatest cause of poverty.
I agree strongly that people who are not supporting themselves financially should not be producing children. I find the fact that these people produce so many children like this something that needs to be addressed.
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No, people should not all be rewarded equally, but no one has ever No it doesn't at all, I was referring to available assistance. There are more than enough programs, run horribly inefficiently, at great enough expense. Will Obama wave his magic wand and make bureaucracy efficient? And the confiscatory taxes necessary to pay for his grand populist vision are quite a disincentive to strive.
He has measures to try to bust through inefficency, mostly through implementing technological advances, yes, but its not as though they would be implementing too much of a tax on the wealthy, but rather restoring ones that had existed at one time.
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Of course it does. When you have slaves why pay workers?
Community service isn't slavery.
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Wow, just wow. No matter how you dress it up it is still compulsory labor.
No more than school already is, and community service isn't actually labor, especially if it is in schools. Are you proposing that the government will use it as a way to simply own everyone and assign them their work that they will do for the rest of their life? Make school last a life-time? I bet that's the fear. It seems like a slippery slope arguement to me.
People choose the government, and I don't see people choosing that, as stupid as people are. People could put a lock on it. Start approaching petitions for an initiative that states that government cannot force you to do more than x hours of community service through schools. People will sign. Pass a law. There are advocacy groups that get this kind of stuff accomplished.
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Hitler was a socialist.
No, he just pretended to be one to the people. He was just a fascist dictator.
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I repeat, not everything is about the Obamessiah.
Clearly, but this is a thread about Obama and his stances and I felt the need to express the distinction between what was being discussed and Obama.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



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Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8062509 - 02/23/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Community service isn't labor. Its education.

It can be labor. It can be educational. It can be punishment. It can be any combination of those things.
I'm a bit on the lazy side here, so I will not be reading most of this thread, nor will I be researching this issue. I would be against making community service a requirement for graduation, and less against giving money for college to kids who do community service.
I won't vote for Obama (or McCain) regardless.
Sorry. I only meant to point out that it is ridiculous to say that community service is not labor, and I ended up rambling.
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
#8062519 - 02/23/08 10:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ziggen said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Community service isn't labor. Its education.

It can be labor. It can be educational. It can be punishment. It can be any combination of those things.
I'm a bit on the lazy side here, so I will not be reading most of this thread, nor will I be researching this issue. I would be against making community service a requirement for graduation, and less against giving money for college to kids who do community service.
Of course you don't want to do it... You said your self.... YOU ARE LAZY.
My high school has a requirement for an internship or community service and a college class. Booo fucking hoo. It was a private college prep HS by the way. OMG, THEY MADE ME WORK, OMG OMG, IHATED WORKING AT THAT HOSPITAL, THE HORROR, THE HORROR.
Imagine if everyone's HS was like mine!!!!!!!! It would be hell on earth, omg. All of my friends getting scholarships and me getting a full ride to a university. OMG, THE WORST HS EXPERIENCE EVER, EVER!!!!!!
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (02/23/08 10:22 PM)
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
#8062568 - 02/23/08 10:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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What is the penalty for not completeing these hours? I'm pretty sure if this becomes a law someone will break it and it'll be a test case for the Supreme Court and undone pretty quick.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: learningtofly]
#8062771 - 02/23/08 11:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said: What is the penalty for not completeing these hours? I'm pretty sure if this becomes a law someone will break it and it'll be a test case for the Supreme Court and undone pretty quick.
What happens if you don't do your homework in class and fuck up the tests? You fail the class. Same thing.
It isn't anything more than school is now. Its just a different kind of class.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063525 - 02/24/08 07:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063635 - 02/24/08 08:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You are entirely correct. It has varying degrees of worthlessness for most students and is utterly useless for poor students. Which is probably a good thing because paying no skill workers $40 an hour is pretty fucking stupid.
And let us all not forget the ideal of government, that IT serve THE PEOPLE and not the other way around, which is borg think. Fuck JFK, he was an asshole.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063849 - 02/24/08 10:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
Well, its only for college students, but it is a great question that, without opening another window to begin investigating it, one could only speculate as to what is specifically met.
Its a one-time tax credit I do believe (or did he say $4000 a year.... ), and its hard to say exactly when you take the tax credit. Anyways, you have to take a look at how it changes the way it works now, which is, of course, that people who do not otherwise receive scholarships or assistance either work or take student loans and eventually then work to pay off college.
I don't see the proposal empty if it is means that it is there to be taken as you do generate an income, that it isn't limited to be taken within one year, etc., and as of yet I don't see anything that suggests it, as clearly the plan is not too specific. The full plan would have to be unveiled and it would have to work its way through Congress.
Anyways, at some point everyone that goes through college generates income, and this is ultimately saying that the first $4000 they make is not taxable income, as it is now, if they also participate in community service, and this will help offset the cost of college. Even if not very many people could use it, it would still be an improvement than the way it was before.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063978 - 02/24/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
full time students are exempt from taxes
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8064198 - 02/24/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
Well, its only for college students, but it is a great question that, without opening another window to begin investigating it, one could only speculate as to what is specifically met.
Its a one-time tax credit I do believe (or did he say $4000 a year.... ), and its hard to say exactly when you take the tax credit. Anyways, you have to take a look at how it changes the way it works now, which is, of course, that people who do not otherwise receive scholarships or assistance either work or take student loans and eventually then work to pay off college.
Here's what it says: (is there any way to cut and paste a fucking pdf? They suck cock)
Quote:
This fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university. Recipients.... yada yada 100 hours of community service per year
In order for it to cover 2/3 of tuition, which is around $6000 per annum at public schools, it would have to be annual and it would have to be taken in the year it was spent. Now I examined the tax tables. What follows is four threshold income levels for each $1000 tax paid for single people or married filing separately. Other categories require slightly greater income to reach the threshold:
$1000 tax----$9,300 income $2000 tax---$16,000 income $3000 tax---$22,600 income $4000 tax---$29,300 income
Tax credits cannot be banked, they must be taken each year, thus a student would need to have an adjusted gross income of nearly $30,000 to take full advantage. That's a full time $15.00 an hour job. What full time student has that? The truly poor student receives very little benefit at all and almost no students will qualify for the maximum. People who will benefit are parents who are funding their child's education and make above $30,000 adjusted gross.
Quote:
I don't see the proposal empty if it is means that it is there to be taken as you do generate an income, that it isn't limited to be taken within one year, etc., and as of yet I don't see anything that suggests it, as clearly the plan is not too specific. The full plan would have to be unveiled and it would have to work its way through Congress.
Unveiled? I like that. More like undressed as it goes through Congress.Quote:
Anyways, at some point everyone that goes through college generates income, and this is ultimately saying that the first $4000 they make is not taxable income, as it is now, if they also participate in community service, and this will help offset the cost of college. Even if not very many people could use it, it would still be an improvement than the way it was before.
Well, it is certainly an improvement for some middle class (and above) parents. Anybody else, not so much. But why should we be subsidizing them? How is that the least bit fair to people who choose not to go to college or are too stupid to get in? Or the really poor? And why the fuck should we pay some unskilled doofus $40 an hour to perform some task that is probably already being done by some poor schmuck at $13.00 an hour? What about that schmuck who just lost his job so people who make more money than him get a break on college for their kids?
Once you get past the hype, scrutiny is going to be one hell of a bitch for the Messiah.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8064204 - 02/24/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
full time students are exempt from taxes
They are?
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8064209 - 02/24/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, that is certainly news to me.
I paid taxes every year that I was in school, and I was well over a full-time student. And working almost full time too.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8064215 - 02/24/08 11:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
full time students are exempt from taxes
They are?
Nope, they are not
Quote:
Every U.S. citizen or resident must file a U.S. income tax return if certain income levels are reached. There is no exemption from tax for full-time students. Factors that determine whether you have an income tax filing requirement include:
http://www.laborlawtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3449
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8064222 - 02/24/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was about to say, I'd be pretty irritated if I just found this out now.
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8064233 - 02/24/08 12:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Likewise.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8064408 - 02/24/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Here's what it says: (is there any way to cut and paste a fucking pdf? They suck cock)
Quote:
Recipients.... yada yada 100 hours of community service per year
yada yada?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8064446 - 02/24/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Go read it yourself if you want all the extraneous bullshit I didn't feel like typing.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8064455 - 02/24/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: full time students are exempt from taxes
They are?
Nope, they are not
Quote:
Every U.S. citizen or resident must file a U.S. income tax return if certain income levels are reached. There is no exemption from tax for full-time students. Factors that determine whether you have an income tax filing requirement include:
http://www.laborlawtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3449
seems there's lots of conflicting information, everyone must file taxes unless they fall below a certain income but as a student everything I had paid in was refunded, the W-4 even had a tick box for student exemptions
http://www.wvu.edu/~finance/control/stg/stgsec7-0.html
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8064501 - 02/24/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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And how long ago were you a student? heh
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Prisoner#1
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: adrug]
#8064513 - 02/24/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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most recently about 10 years ago, damned greedy politicians want every nickel, I've just been reading through the IRS code and it appears that they've removed exemptions for full time student

now I have to claim the cow I worked for as income... I can write off the depreciation though
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8064582 - 02/24/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I dont see how a full time student could make enough to even enter a tax bracket. My wife and I are each full time students and, with our incomes combined, we dont come close to paying taxes.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: DieCommie]
#8064595 - 02/24/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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From the tax brackets I looked at before for my research you start paying pretty much right away. It isn't shit though. There are regulations regarding dependents as well. And, of course, FICA is unavoidable at any level.
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: DieCommie]
#8064644 - 02/24/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: I dont see how a full time student could make enough to even enter a tax bracket. My wife and I are each full time students and, with our incomes combined, we dont come close to paying taxes.
I know a slavic brotha that works full time making around 40k a year and he goes to school full time. I think his major is engineering.
I am also going to be going to work full time next year and go to school full time.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: downforpot]
#8064662 - 02/24/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Good fucking luck. We're not likely to see you posting much.
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BrAiN
Art Fag


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8064749 - 02/24/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: From Obamas Plan for America
Quote:
Set goals for middle-school and high-school students to serve 50 hours a year of public service, and for college students to serve 100 hours a year
Public/ community service is something we sentence law breakers to do for punishment. How can our government force kids to do 50-100 hours of community service every year?
Isn't this against child labor laws? Even kids working sweat shops get paid something.
Last time I checked, madatory labor , without compensation, for the benefit of others, was called slavery.
WTF is it with Barrack and Hillary trying to turn the rest of us into their mini me's.
Egomania has no boundaries.
Here in Maryland we already have laws like this. When I was in high school, I was a part of the first class where we had to do community service to graduate. I think it's 70 hours per kid now, but luckily it was experimental during our first year so I managed to get away with a "project" that involved 6 hours of service and an essay about "what I learned"... total bullshit. But starting the next class they just set a number of hours and that was that.
Middle school and high school? meh.... I dont give a fuck.. they're under 18. When you're under 18 you have no rights.
Now college students.. THAT IS BULLSHIT. Once someone's an adult you can't make them do shit.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: BrAiN]
#8064823 - 02/24/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said: Now college students.. THAT IS BULLSHIT. Once someone's an adult you can't make them do shit.
Whoa whoa whoa. You have to understand the actual plan, which is something some of the people here have no concept of, especially the ones that are posting tax brackets and bullshit like that.
This is a tax credit. It isn't a deduction. The plan is saying that, "if you make an agreement to do this amount of community service, then we will give you a $4000 tax credit". It is saying that this $4000 counts as taxes that you have paid with your taxable income.
Not only that, but it is refundable, which means that, if you don't owe more than $4000 in taxes, because you aren't generating that much of an income, then you get a refund check for the rest of the credit. Otherwise, it covers your taxes. It is a credit.
So, essentially, Obama is saying that, if you are willing to participate in two hours of community service a week, they will give you $4000 to help with college. Not only that, but I believe that, if it is a family putting their child through college, they are the ones who receive the credit. Not only that, but I believe it read that it can be put on the prior's years taxes so that it pays off closer to when it is needed.
Now, whether or not the government should be giving people money for college is another story, but the implication that Obama is trying to make it seem like he's helping when he isn't giving anything with this plan is completely baseless. Personally, I'd rather see the government subsidize college than Pakistan. At least college will generally pay dividiends for our country as a whole whereas subsidizing Pakistan is like dumping our money in a hole in the sand.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8064835 - 02/24/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not only that, but it is refundable, which means that, if you don't owe more than $4000 in taxes, because you aren't generating that much of an income, then you get a refund check for the rest of the credit. Otherwise, it covers your taxes. It is a credit.
I don't believe it works that way with credits, does it? I was under the impression that credits only brought you down to zero and not below.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8064984 - 02/24/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I read this title and thought to myself "Are you serious"
100 required community service hours in exchange for a $4000 tuition credit? OUTRAGE! Who does he think he is offering a pittance of 40/hr to work with those disgusting homeless people.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: xFrockx]
#8064998 - 02/24/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: I read this title and thought to myself "Are you serious"
100 required community service hours in exchange for a $4000 tuition credit? OUTRAGE! Who does he think he is offering a pittance of 40/hr to work with those disgusting homeless people.
I don't believe anywhere in the thread does it say they receive tuition credit. They receive a worthless tax credit.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8065254 - 02/24/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
BrAiN said: Now college students.. THAT IS BULLSHIT. Once someone's an adult you can't make them do shit.
Whoa whoa whoa. You have to understand the actual plan, which is something some of the people here have no concept of, especially the ones that are posting tax brackets and bullshit like that.
This is a tax credit. It isn't a deduction. The plan is saying that, "if you make an agreement to do this amount of community service, then we will give you a $4000 tax credit". It is saying that this $4000 counts as taxes that you have paid with your taxable income.
Not only that, but it is refundable, which means that, if you don't owe more than $4000 in taxes, because you aren't generating that much of an income, then you get a refund check for the rest of the credit. Otherwise, it covers your taxes. It is a credit.
So, essentially, Obama is saying that, if you are willing to participate in two hours of community service a week, they will give you $4000 to help with college. Not only that, but I believe that, if it is a family putting their child through college, they are the ones who receive the credit. Not only that, but I believe it read that it can be put on the prior's years taxes so that it pays off closer to when it is needed.
I had glossed over the "refundable" part. The notion that you get a $4,000 credit on your taxes, whether you owe that much tax or not, with a subsequent check given to you for that amount left over after you pay your taxes, makes this a whole different animal all together. Now it becomes a fungible gift that you can use for anything at all. I call it a gift because although it requires 100 hours of work there are very few college students who can come close to being that valuable ($40 per hour) on the marketplace and the jobs they will be required to perform will be held to the lowest common denominator. You might as well call it a purple pony because it just as much that as a tax credit. You just have to pay your taxes first. Just like everybody else.
Since this is completely discretionary money it makes no difference whatsoever when you use it or who uses it. This is even worse than I initially thought. He estimates it will cost $3.5B per annum for all of his service initiatives, which is about right for 900,000 full time students taking advantage of this. That probably understates the number by a factor of 10. There will be over 10 million full time students and a boondoggle like this will be impossible to pass up. What college student would turn down a $40 an hour job? So his cost number is total bullshit just based on the college scam without once taking into account any of the other nonsense he has to pay for. He will pay for this by raising taxes and with a troop withdrawal from Iraq. Forget for a moment the horrifying notion that he has already begun spending the money that will be saved when the Iraq war winds down with socialist crap. Maybe it should go towards the deficit instead of increased spending.Quote:
Now, whether or not the government should be giving people money for college is another story, but the implication that Obama is trying to make it seem like he's helping when he isn't giving anything with this plan is completely baseless. Personally, I'd rather see the government subsidize college than Pakistan. At least college will generally pay dividiends for our country as a whole whereas subsidizing Pakistan is like dumping our money in a hole in the sand.
Blah blah blah Pakistan blah blah blah. I do not intend to get into an isolationism argument, it is off topic. What is on topic is the repercussions. I see a few.
1. College costs will be increased to absorb most of the purple pony anyway. That's right, as soon as more money becomes available to pay for a service the price of that service will rise. Every. Fucking. Time. Bet on it.
2. Some people will be displaced from their low paying jobs in favor of these college kids. This will somewhat offset the costs while at the same time marginalizing even further the people who need these jobs. Because they aren't likely to ever become engineers. So a new class of unemployed will be created. Let's be conservative and say only 5 million students do 100 hrs. 100 hrs' is 5% of a full year. 5% of 5 million is 250,000 replaced jobs. Now I have no doubt that a lot of this work will be utter bullshit but certainly there will be quite a few people losing jobs. If the work is at all meaningful there will be even more jobs lost. Why pay someone to do work when you can get the gummint to supply some college schmuck to do it for nothing.
3. People not going to college will scream bloody fucking murder. They already resent pampered college kids. Where's theirs?
4. There will be no way to ever eliminate this hideous idea. It will be with us forever.
In closing I will throw in my favorite quote whenever I see shit like this, especially in a campaign. I undressed Kerry over this four years ago and Obama is definitely going to get his.
Quote:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
The asshole seems to want to speed this up as much as possible.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8065273 - 02/24/08 05:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
xFrockx said: I read this title and thought to myself "Are you serious"
100 required community service hours in exchange for a $4000 tuition credit? OUTRAGE! Who does he think he is offering a pittance of 40/hr to work with those disgusting homeless people.
I don't believe anywhere in the thread does it say they receive tuition credit. They receive a worthless tax credit.
I initially thought the same as you. Then I wikied "refundable tax credit". It isn't a tax credit at all. It's a gift.
Quote:
Refundable or non-wastable tax credits can reduce the tax owed below zero, and result in a net payment to the taxpayer beyond their own payments into the tax system,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_credit
A far worse horror.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8065296 - 02/24/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
xFrockx said: I read this title and thought to myself "Are you serious"
100 required community service hours in exchange for a $4000 tuition credit? OUTRAGE! Who does he think he is offering a pittance of 40/hr to work with those disgusting homeless people.
I don't believe anywhere in the thread does it say they receive tuition credit. They receive a worthless tax credit.
I initially thought the same as you. Then I wikied "refundable tax credit". It isn't a tax credit at all. It's a gift.
Quote:
Refundable or non-wastable tax credits can reduce the tax owed below zero, and result in a net payment to the taxpayer beyond their own payments into the tax system,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_credit
A far worse horror.
Fuck. And the worst part is, everyone will love this shit. Everyone loves free money, regardless of the consequences.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8065304 - 02/24/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Read my big post above.
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8065342 - 02/24/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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No money is free when the government is involved. Its stolen from one group of people and given to another.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8067454 - 02/25/08 02:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Now it becomes a fungible gift that you can use for anything at all. I call it a gift because although it requires 100 hours of work there are very few college students who can come close to being that valuable ($40 per hour) on the marketplace and the jobs they will be required to perform will be held to the lowest common denominator. You might as well call it a purple pony because it just as much that as a tax credit. You just have to pay your taxes first. Just like everybody else.
What are you talking about? Do you understand the tax incentive system? The money is going to the costs of college, either by giving someone that has no money to pay the opportunity to do so, or by paying someone back the money that they did have to pay for those costs of college. Either way, $4000 is being spent on college. This is proposed as an incentive for college. I don't see it as a free gift because it is implied that the money is going to college. They still have to go to college and the college still has to teach.
Quote:
What college student would turn down a $40 an hour job?
It isn't a $40 an hour job, and if you prefer to look at it like that, then realize that the job only lasts two weeks. It isn't as though there will be career college students, getting paid to sit there.
Quote:
He will pay for this by raising taxes and with a troop withdrawal from Iraq. Forget for a moment the horrifying notion that he has already begun spending the money that will be saved when the Iraq war winds down with socialist crap. Maybe it should go towards the deficit instead of increased spending.
I believe he does have plans on the deficit, and he might not have to raise taxes, but simply let expire Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy. I see no evidence that his plans wouldn't be fiscally sound.
Quote:
1. College costs will be increased to absorb most of the purple pony anyway. That's right, as soon as more money becomes available to pay for a service the price of that service will rise. Every. Fucking. Time. Bet on it.
So you're saying that colleges wouldn't compete for the increase of people able to take the opportunity for college education, and that wouldn't help keep costs lower? Perhaps the cost would rise. Its already going up quite a bit.
Quote:
2. Some people will be displaced from their low paying jobs in favor of these college kids. This will somewhat offset the costs while at the same time marginalizing even further the people who need these jobs. Because they aren't likely to ever become engineers. So a new class of unemployed will be created. Let's be conservative and say only 5 million students do 100 hrs. 100 hrs' is 5% of a full year. 5% of 5 million is 250,000 replaced jobs. Now I have no doubt that a lot of this work will be utter bullshit but certainly there will be quite a few people losing jobs. If the work is at all meaningful there will be even more jobs lost. Why pay someone to do work when you can get the gummint to supply some college schmuck to do it for nothing.
Community service is going to replace 250,000 jobs? I see no reason to believe this.
Quote:
3. People not going to college will scream bloody fucking murder. They already resent pampered college kids. Where's theirs?
What are you talkin about? I know a few people who love the idea of going to get more schooling to be able to get a better, higher-paying job than something like retail can provide, but they can't afford to spring for the costs anytime soon because they don't make enough in retail to cover their costs and save. Giving someone like this the opportunity will mean that, in the future, they will be paying more taxable income, which means the $4000 is an investment that pays dividends down the road.
For the people that are already in college, it is probably likely that the costs of college are being paid by their parents, which means that they receive the credit, which will help with their mortage payment. Otherwise, its likely that they have taken student loans, and it is in the government's interest to help them pay those loans off quicker, because the more money that college students have to pay on interest on their loan is money that they could be using to begin a small business after finishing their college education for doing so, for example, or money that they could use towards buying a car or a house once they find a career after college, so they can start generating more taxable income. The notion that investing in people through college education is a forecast of doom, as you have put forth, seems pretty baseless to me.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8068350 - 02/25/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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" Giving someone like this the opportunity will mean that, in the future, they will be paying more taxable income, which means the $4000 is an investment that pays dividends down the road."
This is a very good point. All too often I think the people who cry that the sky is falling when facing the taxation of democrats overlook this. Taxes are good for the economy when they do things like this, not all of the money Washington takes every year gets turned into hookers and blow.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8068749 - 02/25/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Now it becomes a fungible gift that you can use for anything at all. I call it a gift because although it requires 100 hours of work there are very few college students who can come close to being that valuable ($40 per hour) on the marketplace and the jobs they will be required to perform will be held to the lowest common denominator. You might as well call it a purple pony because it just as much that as a tax credit. You just have to pay your taxes first. Just like everybody else.
What are you talking about? Do you understand the tax incentive system? The money is going to the costs of college, either by giving someone that has no money to pay the opportunity to do so, or by paying someone back the money that they did have to pay for those costs of college. Either way, $4000 is being spent on college. This is proposed as an incentive for college. I don't see it as a free gift because it is implied that the money is going to college. They still have to go to college and the college still has to teach.
I am going to explain "fungible" to you. When you say that something is fungible that means that it is indistiguishable from anything of like kind. For instance a dollar spent on a bag of pot is exactly the same as a dollar spent on taxes or tuition. The $4000 was already being spent on college, this just puts another $4000 in the hands of the student to use for whatever he/she wants. Incentive? If college has any value that should be incentive enough. Will this gift allow more people to afford college? Certainly. Which goes to a later point in re increasing costs for college. More people who can afford it creates more demand raises the price. Simple, actually. Will probably put upward pressure on bags of reefer as well.Quote:
Quote:
What college student would turn down a $40 an hour job?
It isn't a $40 an hour job, and if you prefer to look at it like that, then realize that the job only lasts two weeks. It isn't as though there will be career college students, getting paid to sit there. 
It is a gloriously overpriced temp job, for services nobody is willing to purchase or is willing to purchase at that price. Crap, in other words.Quote:
Quote:
He will pay for this by raising taxes and with a troop withdrawal from Iraq. Forget for a moment the horrifying notion that he has already begun spending the money that will be saved when the Iraq war winds down with socialist crap. Maybe it should go towards the deficit instead of increased spending.
I believe he does have plans on the deficit, and he might not have to raise taxes, but simply let expire Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy. I see no evidence that his plans wouldn't be fiscally sound.
Rescinding the tax cuts is EXACTLY a tax increase. And the unsoundness I mention you purposely ignore. He says it will cost $3.5B annually. If 10% of the 10 million+ full time college students take advantage of this program it will cost $4B annually. If you don't think more than that will take up this boondoggle you are seriously underestimating college students ability to scam the system. They've spent their entire lives trying to get over on their parents and are well versed in scamology. And I get sick and tired of populist scum blathering about tax cuts for the rich. We're the ones who pay the fucking taxes. The rest of you DON'T PAY SHIT. What is it now? The top 5% pay 50% of the taxes? Top 10% pay 67% The rest of you pay fuck all. At what point will it ever be enough for the panhandling parasites?Quote:
Quote:
1. College costs will be increased to absorb most of the purple pony anyway. That's right, as soon as more money becomes available to pay for a service the price of that service will rise. Every. Fucking. Time. Bet on it.
So you're saying that colleges wouldn't compete for the increase of people able to take the opportunity for college education, and that wouldn't help keep costs lower? Perhaps the cost would rise. Its already going up quite a bit.
Compete? What for? They will be handed an increase in demand. You know what happens when there's an increase in demand. Or don't you? Sometimes I wonder if there actually is any educational value in a college education. Fuck it, make 'em all glorified trade schools, cause a general education is not be found.
To add to that, I will impart a little lesson from chemistry about ionic pressure across a permeable or semi permeable membrane. If you increase the concentration of an ion (money) on one side (student pocket) it will cross over to the other side (school) until the pressure is equalized. They won't take it all but they will definitely increase to take more. Inevitable.Quote:
Quote:
2. Some people will be displaced from their low paying jobs in favor of these college kids. This will somewhat offset the costs while at the same time marginalizing even further the people who need these jobs. Because they aren't likely to ever become engineers. So a new class of unemployed will be created. Let's be conservative and say only 5 million students do 100 hrs. 100 hrs' is 5% of a full year. 5% of 5 million is 250,000 replaced jobs. Now I have no doubt that a lot of this work will be utter bullshit but certainly there will be quite a few people losing jobs. If the work is at all meaningful there will be even more jobs lost. Why pay someone to do work when you can get the gummint to supply some college schmuck to do it for nothing.
Community service is going to replace 250,000 jobs? I see no reason to believe this.
I crunched the hours for you. Either the jobs are already being done by someone or there is no market value to the job. "Make work", I think they call it.Quote:
Quote:
3. People not going to college will scream bloody fucking murder. They already resent pampered college kids. Where's theirs?
What are you talkin about? I know a few people who love the idea of going to get more schooling to be able to get a better, higher-paying job than something like retail can provide, but they can't afford to spring for the costs anytime soon because they don't make enough in retail to cover their costs and save. Giving someone like this the opportunity will mean that, in the future, they will be paying more taxable income, which means the $4000 is an investment that pays dividends down the road.
It seems to me that you think that everybody wants to or belongs in college. Quite narcissistic but not surprising. College is not the best thing for everybody. I daresay that probably includes a huge amount of people already in college. But I'm not going to presume to tell them what is good for them. Nor do I think you have any business telling anybody else that they should be in college. So, I will reiterate, what about people who don't want to or just can't benefit from college? Where's their magic tit.Quote:
For the people that are already in college, it is probably likely that the costs of college are being paid by their parents, which means that they receive the credit, which will help with their mortage payment. Otherwise, its likely that they have taken student loans, and it is in the government's interest to help them pay those loans off quicker, because the more money that college students have to pay on interest on their loan is money that they could be using to begin a small business after finishing their college education for doing so, for example, or money that they could use towards buying a car or a house once they find a career after college, so they can start generating more taxable income. The notion that investing in people through college education is a forecast of doom, as you have put forth, seems pretty baseless to me.
You just made my whole argument vis a vis the fungibility of this gift. You might as well demand a free college education for everyone who wants it. And the same amount of money given to anyone who doesn't. And kittens and puppies for every kindergarten kid. And purple ponies for every middle school girl. Or a $40 an hour temp job for anybody who wants one. What overweening, beggarly narcissism.
Let's see, everybody gets free college. College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one. And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs.
Weren't you a former Paulnut? Don't you owe me money?
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8068907 - 02/25/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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"Let's see, everybody gets free college. College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one. And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs."
The value of education is not in having it alone, it is what you do with it. Sure everyone might not be right for college, but I can guarantee you it isn't because it is too hard for them. There's a tech-ed major for everyone.
So, zappa, what earns more GDP, a million telemarketers, or a million engineers?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: xFrockx]
#8068939 - 02/25/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You just made the point that there can't be a million engineers. It will only add bottom feeders. The future engineers are already there.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8069368 - 02/25/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Also, in my experience, most colleges are pretty much full if not over full. Just because tens of thousands of people can now afford college, at my expense, doesn't mean that there is room in college for them. Colleges will raise the price to discourage enrollment beyond their means putting us right back where we are... minus my money that the government gave to somebody else.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Seuss]
#8069410 - 02/25/08 05:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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But but but they'll have spiffy cars and and and really kool bongs.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8070521 - 02/25/08 10:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I love how everyone assumes the government is just throwing money at people to go to school.
I really wish I would have heard about these programs before I went 20K in debt to pay for school.
The only thing the government gave me for free was the interest on the loans. (No-Interest)
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8084929 - 02/29/08 04:21 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: I am going to explain "fungible" to you. When you say that something is fungible that means that it is indistiguishable from anything of like kind. For instance a dollar spent on a bag of pot is exactly the same as a dollar spent on taxes or tuition. The $4000 was already being spent on college, this just puts another $4000 in the hands of the student to use for whatever he/she wants.
The $4000 was already being spent on college, but for everyone but the wealthy, it is being spent by low to middle class parents, who are faced with a rising cost of living and a credit crisis, which means it becomes more difficult for them to afford college. Otherwise, the students are going into debt and paying a lot of interest, and I'm wondering how much the credit crisis will affect student loans if it plays out further.
The point is, if it is a choice between making a mortage payment or a college payment, which do you think will come first? If we are facing difficult times economically, not being able to send children to college to become more skilled to take on the jobs that we need to rebuild the economy will hurt us.
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Incentive? If college has any value that should be incentive enough. Will this gift allow more people to afford college? Certainly.
Yes, the value college has should be incentive enough, so perhaps using "incentive" in that regard wasn't the best thing to say, because what I meant was giving them the means to actually make it to college. Those who need that opportunity the most, if they'll take it, are people with the least amount of means to make it happen - receiving low wages and juggling payments.
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Which goes to a later point in re increasing costs for college. More people who can afford it creates more demand raises the price. Simple, actually.
This has been the most difficult aspect of this debate to address. I don't think it is that simple, though. Take this statement of yours, that more people who can afford college raises the price, and couple it with seuss's statement that most colleges are full and they would actually raise the price to maintain that level.
Has government subsidies risen the price of college? Yes, and will tax incentives likely raise the price more? Yes, but are colleges a free market? I don't know much about colleges, but if its actually getting to the point that they'd raise the prices to keep students out, then isn't there incentive for new colleges to spring forth?
I don't think government subsidies for college are the problem here, I think it is that the college system is pretty inflexible, and this needs to change. The prices would naturally go down if colleges worked as a free market. Of course, in the meantime, its more difficult for people to receive college education because the costs keep going up, but I do not feel the answer is to stop giving subsidies to college education. Obama's plan might begin to increase those prices more, but there will be created a lot of incentive for new colleges to open to meet the needs that are being created, and new colleges will come into existence to facillitate that, due to the same free market principles that makes you state that the prices, simply, will go up.
Trade laws might have put us as a disadvantage, and Obama has sought to address that, but the real problem is our inability to compete with the world, and this is the failure of our educational system, really. He's got plans acrossed the board to address this. I was researching the college system in Norway, and they provide for college through long-term loans, which brought me to wonder why Obama would seek to give tax credits... then I simply looked to the economy and realized how necessary it is to jumpstart it (hint: it won't be through Bush's tax rebates and encouragement to go shopping ).
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It is a gloriously overpriced temp job, for services nobody is willing to purchase or is willing to purchase at that price. Crap, in other words.
Of course, because its community service, and there is no monetary profit in community service. The tax credit is one thing, for one purpose, the community service is added for a different reason. It isn't intended as a job, and no one has suggested that the $4000 is actually being proposed as being equivalent to the community service.
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Rescinding the tax cuts is EXACTLY a tax increase.
The tax cuts were never permanent. This is simply letting them go back to the level they are officially set as.
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And the unsoundness I mention you purposely ignore. He says it will cost $3.5B annually. If 10% of the 10 million+ full time college students take advantage of this program it will cost $4B annually.
And if 100% do it will be $40 billion annually, and if we throw in another 10 million new college students, it will be $80 billion annually. With the War in Iraq costing us $275 million a day, that's over $100 billion a year. I don't think we should be talking about unsound here, I think giving it the ole' college try is a much better investment in the future of this country.
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And I get sick and tired of populist scum blathering about tax cuts for the rich. We're the ones who pay the fucking taxes. The rest of you DON'T PAY SHIT. What is it now? The top 5% pay 50% of the taxes? Top 10% pay 67% The rest of you pay fuck all. At what point will it ever be enough for the panhandling parasites?
What are you talking about? When the top 1% of the population holds 33% of all privately held wealth and the next 19% hold 51% of it, it would only make sense that they would pay a lot more taxes than everyone else.
The top 10% own nearly 90% off all privately held stock, bonds, trust funds, business equity, and over 75% of non-home real estate.
Now, why would the idea come up that tax-cuts that do nothing but favor the top 10% are a bad thing? Hhhm.... probably because all of that wealth is generated from the rest of us. The top 10% of the population pratically own this country, so why shouldn't they pick up the country's tab?
No, you're right... lowly workers for these corporations owned by the wealthiest should be glad they can take one for the team. Its pretty amusing you'd include yourself in that wealthy elite... I'm sure the sense of entitlement is nice, but really you're just being their little bitch. 
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To add to that, I will impart a little lesson from chemistry about ionic pressure across a permeable or semi permeable membrane. If you increase the concentration of an ion (money) on one side (student pocket) it will cross over to the other side (school) until the pressure is equalized. They won't take it all but they will definitely increase to take more. Inevitable.
Interesting, but it isn't really that relevant, as the student's pocket and the school don't exist in isolation. The reality of the matter is a little more dynamic and complex than that - there are other factors.
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I crunched the hours for you. Either the jobs are already being done by someone or there is no market value to the job. "Make work", I think they call it.
Of course there isn't much of any market value to the job, its community service. Not everything is done because it has "market value".
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It seems to me that you think that everybody wants to or belongs in college. Quite narcissistic but not surprising. College is not the best thing for everybody. I daresay that probably includes a huge amount of people already in college. But I'm not going to presume to tell them what is good for them. Nor do I think you have any business telling anybody else that they should be in college. So, I will reiterate, what about people who don't want to or just can't benefit from college? Where's their magic tit.
I'm someone who skipped college, and I'm happy for it, although some of my plans for the future include getting a college education. I readily admit it isn't necessary for everyone, and I've never told anyone that they should have it. You don't need it to be intelligent or informed, but then I've been happy working an entry-level job because I don't have very many financial needs right now (I had started working my way up the ladder but it wasn't worth it, not in that corporation ).
The fact is, however, that most jobs that provide any real means of creating wealth for oneself require a college education, especially since high-paying manufacturing jobs were lost to much cheaper work-forces overseas. The magic tit for those who can't or won't benefit from a college education is receiving the benefits of a prosperous economy that is powered by innovative, skilled workers. Let's keep in mind that this is just one aspect of a comprehensive plan for education reform.
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Let's see, everybody gets free college. College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one.
What? The competitive value is in the education, not the fact that someone has went to college. How that education is applied determines competitive value, so it is still the responsibility of the individual to be capable and productive. If anything, more educated people will create more competition for jobs, and maybe that is an underlying fear from evening out the disproportionate amount of blacks and Hispanics that receive a college education?
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And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs.
This makes no sense. Care to expand upon that?
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Weren't you a former Paulnut? Don't you owe me money?
No, I still am one. I don't owe you money because you never acknowledged the fact that I wanted to take your bet, but I graciously stated that I would donate that money to the Shroomery when the nomination was made. Its not my fault you don't know how to make bets.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8089316 - 03/01/08 10:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
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zappaisgod said: I am going to explain "fungible" to you. When you say that something is fungible that means that it is indistiguishable from anything of like kind. For instance a dollar spent on a bag of pot is exactly the same as a dollar spent on taxes or tuition. The $4000 was already being spent on college, this just puts another $4000 in the hands of the student to use for whatever he/she wants.
The $4000 was already being spent on college, but for everyone but the wealthy, it is being spent by low to middle class parents, who are faced with a rising cost of living and a credit crisis, which means it becomes more difficult for them to afford college. Otherwise, the students are going into debt and paying a lot of interest, and I'm wondering how much the credit crisis will affect student loans if it plays out further.
The point is, if it is a choice between making a mortage payment or a college payment, which do you think will come first? If we are facing difficult times economically, not being able to send children to college to become more skilled to take on the jobs that we need to rebuild the economy will hurt us.
You go into debt to either make a worthwhile investment that justifies the debt or it is not a worthwhile debt that justifies the investment. The market should determine the value of the investment. Or you use your parent's money to make an investment that is either worthwhile or not. The investment is either worthwhile or it is not worthwhile. The source of funding is irrelevant to the value of the investment. You are no more nor no less than a populist wealth redistributionist. Own it. Weren't you a Ron Paul guy?
As to college teaching skills that is to laugh. A relatively small percentage of students receive any skills training. Most receive a devalued set of credentials and nothing more. The greatest value that college provides for employers is in identifiying those that are capable of learning. If the doors are thrown wide open that will yet further degrade the credentials
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Incentive? If college has any value that should be incentive enough. Will this gift allow more people to afford college? Certainly.
Yes, the value college has should be incentive enough, so perhaps using "incentive" in that regard wasn't the best thing to say, because what I meant was giving them the means to actually make it to college. Those who need that opportunity the most, if they'll take it, are people with the least amount of means to make it happen - receiving low wages and juggling payments.
Another wealth redistribution argument. And no, I do not ascribe to your thesis that college is either necessary or desirable for every intelligent person and it is most definitely a waste of time and resources for those who aren't. This isn't BOCES. Work hard, learn a (shudder) trade and start your own company. It takes effort and intelligence to do that. MORE than it takes to get a four year sociology degree and who knows, maybe you'll be able to change a light bulb at some point.
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Which goes to a later point in re increasing costs for college. More people who can afford it creates more demand raises the price. Simple, actually.
This has been the most difficult aspect of this debate to address. I don't think it is that simple, though. Take this statement of yours, that more people who can afford college raises the price, and couple it with seuss's statement that most colleges are full and they would actually raise the price to maintain that level.
Has government subsidies risen the price of college? Yes, and will tax incentives likely raise the price more? Yes, but are colleges a free market? I don't know much about colleges, but if its actually getting to the point that they'd raise the prices to keep students out, then isn't there incentive for new colleges to spring forth?
I don't think government subsidies for college are the problem here, I think it is that the college system is pretty inflexible, and this needs to change. The prices would naturally go down if colleges worked as a free market. Of course, in the meantime, its more difficult for people to receive college education because the costs keep going up, but I do not feel the answer is to stop giving subsidies to college education. Obama's plan might begin to increase those prices more, but there will be created a lot of incentive for new colleges to open to meet the needs that are being created, and new colleges will come into existence to facillitate that, due to the same free market principles that makes you state that the prices, simply, will go up.
I do not know why you think they are inflexible. They are probably the most flexible and accomodating system in the country. New colleges will come in to harvest the new dollars created by an artificial need and an artificial ability to pay. More professors and administrators and other workers will be needed. Price pressure will rise on those trades. Prices will rise across the board. It is utterly an inevitable result. One of the big problems with your thinking, and I find it particularly myopic, is that college is actually preparatory for work. It very rarely is.
Trade laws might have put us as a disadvantage, and Obama has sought to address that, but the real problem is our inability to compete with the world, and this is the failure of our educational system, really. He's got plans acrossed the board to address this. I was researching the college system in Norway, and they provide for college through long-term loans, which brought me to wonder why Obama would seek to give tax credits... then I simply looked to the economy and realized how necessary it is to jumpstart it (hint: it won't be through Bush's tax rebates and encouragement to go shopping ).
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Given that you can't seem to grasp the idea of fungibility I must respectfully decline your assessment of the great socialist experiment that is Norway. So you do actually now seem to be espousing $4000 grants. Why didn't you just say so. We could have avoided a great deal of column inches. Weren't you a Paulnut? Our inability to compete with the world? Are you fucking kidding me? Even with the just about the highest corporate tax rate we are still kings. Aren't you one of the people constantly yammering about what economic bullies we are and Barry will make us more liked? Do you want us to win or do you want us to be second class winning Miss Congeniality Awards? It is a gloriously overpriced temp job, for services nobody is willing to purchase or is willing to purchase at that price. Crap, in other words.
Of course, because its community service, and there is no monetary profit in community service. The tax credit is one thing, for one purpose, the community service is added for a different reason. It isn't intended as a job, and no one has suggested that the $4000 is actually being proposed as being equivalent to the community service. It's not a tax credit if you don't have to pay taxes to get it. It's a purple pony. Also, you have to work for 100 hours to get it. No workee no monee. It's a fucking job.
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Rescinding the tax cuts is EXACTLY a tax increase.
The tax cuts were never permanent. This is simply letting them go back to the level they are officially set as.
Let's break this down. 2008 taxes are x dollars 2009 taxes are x + more dollars Tax increase achieved So what level taxes do you think is OK? Because we've had pretty much almost all of them in our history. Face it, you and Barry want to raise taxes. How hard is it for you to call a spade a spade?
The fucking hoops you will jump through makes Shamu look like a piker
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And the unsoundness I mention you purposely ignore. He says it will cost $3.5B annually. If 10% of the 10 million+ full time college students take advantage of this program it will cost $4B annually.
And if 100% do it will be $40 billion annually, and if we throw in another 10 million new college students, it will be $80 billion annually. With the War in Iraq costing us $275 million a day, that's over $100 billion a year. I don't think we should be talking about unsound here, I think giving it the ole' college try is a much better investment in the future of this country. The War in Iraq is irrelevant. This goes to the fungibility question. When we are done there I want taxes dropped more, not redistributed to other spending programs. Back. Given to me. Not to you. Not to some professor. Not to some welfare mother (again). Back to me. This just illustrates the fallacy and attitude of the left. Any savings generated in an area of decreased public spending needs to find a new venue for public spending. IT NEVER GOES DOWN. The whores always find a new worthless bullshit well to throw it down.
At any rate, my point there was about Barry's lie about the cost. IT IS A LIE. All it would take is 10% of college students to do this to bankrupt his projection. Either he's amazingly stupid or he thinks you are. I know what I think is true.
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And I get sick and tired of populist scum blathering about tax cuts for the rich. We're the ones who pay the fucking taxes. The rest of you DON'T PAY SHIT. What is it now? The top 5% pay 50% of the taxes? Top 10% pay 67% The rest of you pay fuck all. At what point will it ever be enough for the panhandling parasites?
What are you talking about? When the top 1% of the population holds 33% of all privately held wealth and the next 19% hold 51% of it, it would only make sense that they would pay a lot more taxes than everyone else.
The top 10% own nearly 90% off all privately held stock, bonds, trust funds, business equity, and over 75% of non-home real estate.
Now, why would the idea come up that tax-cuts that do nothing but favor the top 10% are a bad thing? Hhhm.... probably because all of that wealth is generated from the rest of us. The top 10% of the population pratically own this country, so why shouldn't they pick up the country's tab?
Tax cuts will always favor those who pay the taxes. Currently a small percentage of the population pays most of the taxes. Why do you think you deserve a ride on my ass. I may choose to give you one but I don't think I should have to give you one. Anyway, you have shown your hairy red communist ass. Which was no surprise to me (weren't you a Paulnut?) but at least you should have the good graces not to lie about it. And to assist the socialist dong Barry in lying himself. If enough of the electorate wants a commie president they should at least know that it's a commie running instead of some ill disguised liar who obfuscates the costs of the program. Hillary is more honest. At least she flat out said she wanted to take our profits. The rest of your populist, envious nonsense about percent ownership is misleading. Did you include the people's pension funds in private equity?
No, you're right... lowly workers for these corporations owned by the wealthiest should be glad they can take one for the team. Its pretty amusing you'd include yourself in that wealthy elite... I'm sure the sense of entitlement is nice, but really you're just being their little bitch. 
I am entitled to the fruits of my labors, competence and success. YOU are not. Get to work and get your own. (weren't you a Paulnut?)
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To add to that, I will impart a little lesson from chemistry about ionic pressure across a permeable or semi permeable membrane. If you increase the concentration of an ion (money) on one side (student pocket) it will cross over to the other side (school) until the pressure is equalized. They won't take it all but they will definitely increase to take more. Inevitable.
Interesting, but it isn't really that relevant, as the student's pocket and the school don't exist in isolation. The reality of the matter is a little more dynamic and complex than that - there are other factors.
There may be other factors but none which will overcome those. Just out of curiosity, what factors are you proposing which might put a downward pressure on costs. Please confine yourself only to those that will come about as a result of this purple pony.
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I crunched the hours for you. Either the jobs are already being done by someone or there is no market value to the job. "Make work", I think they call it.
Of course there isn't much of any market value to the job, its community service. Not everything is done because it has "market value". 
If there is no market value it is what we call "make work" a common union and mob scam.
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It seems to me that you think that everybody wants to or belongs in college. Quite narcissistic but not surprising. College is not the best thing for everybody. I daresay that probably includes a huge amount of people already in college. But I'm not going to presume to tell them what is good for them. Nor do I think you have any business telling anybody else that they should be in college. So, I will reiterate, what about people who don't want to or just can't benefit from college? Where's their magic tit.
I'm someone who skipped college, and I'm happy for it, although some of my plans for the future include getting a college education. I readily admit it isn't necessary for everyone, and I've never told anyone that they should have it. You don't need it to be intelligent or informed, but then I've been happy working an entry-level job because I don't have very many financial needs right now (I had started working my way up the ladder but it wasn't worth it, not in that corporation ).
The fact is, however, that most jobs that provide any real means of creating wealth for oneself require a college education, especially since high-paying manufacturing jobs were lost to much cheaper work-forces overseas. The magic tit for those who can't or won't benefit from a college education is receiving the benefits of a prosperous economy that is powered by innovative, skilled workers. Let's keep in mind that this is just one aspect of a comprehensive plan for education reform.
Get a trade. Carpentry jobs are begging. BEGGING. And zero "education reform" is required. The only reform needed is in attitude.
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Let's see, everybody gets free college. College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one.
What? The competitive value is in the education, not the fact that someone has went to college. How that education is applied determines competitive value, so it is still the responsibility of the individual to be capable and productive. If anything, more educated people will create more competition for jobs, and maybe that is an underlying fear from evening out the disproportionate amount of blacks and Hispanics that receive a college education? 
If everyone has a degree there is no competitive value in having the degree. Further, the granting of a degree will have less vale because it is now granted to every monkey who can show up with a sheepskin. Do you know what will increase? The value of an IVY degree. Open admission degrees mean fuck all. Rich people win again.
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And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs.
This makes no sense. Care to expand upon that?
It makes a lot of sense. There seems to be a general disrespect for people who can and do work competently with their hands as well as their heads and a general unwillingness to tackle unpleasant tasks which need to be done.
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Weren't you a former Paulnut? Don't you owe me money?
No, I still am one. I don't owe you money because you never acknowledged the fact that I wanted to take your bet, but I graciously stated that I would donate that money to the Shroomery when the nomination was made. Its not my fault you don't know how to make bets.
OK. Fine with me. Did you give it to the Shroomery yet? How the fuck you can reconcile this socialist shit with Ron Paul is something that should be studied by our finest scientists. Anything that spins that hard should supply our energy needs for centuries.
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