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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8065296 - 02/24/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
I read this title and thought to myself "Are you serious"

100 required community service hours in exchange for a $4000 tuition credit? OUTRAGE! Who does he think he is offering a pittance of 40/hr to work with those disgusting homeless people.




I don't believe anywhere in the thread does it say they receive tuition credit. They receive a worthless tax credit.




I initially thought the same as you. Then I wikied "refundable tax credit". It isn't a tax credit at all. It's a gift.

Quote:

Refundable or non-wastable tax credits can reduce the tax owed below zero, and result in a net payment to the taxpayer beyond their own payments into the tax system,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_credit

A far worse horror.




Fuck. And the worst part is, everyone will love this shit. Everyone loves free money, regardless of the consequences.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
    #8065304 - 02/24/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Read my big post above.


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Invisiblebradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
    #8065342 - 02/24/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No money is free when the government is involved. Its stolen from one group of people and given to another.


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"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8067454 - 02/25/08 02:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Now it becomes a fungible gift that you can use for anything at all.  I call it a gift because although it requires 100 hours of work there are very few college students who can come close to being that valuable ($40 per hour) on the marketplace and the jobs they will be required to perform will be held to the lowest common denominator.  You might as well call it a purple pony because it just as much that as a tax credit.  You just have to pay your taxes first.  Just like everybody else.




What are you talking about? Do you understand the tax incentive system? The money is going to the costs of college, either by giving someone that has no money to pay the opportunity to do so, or by paying someone back the money that they did have to pay for those costs of college. Either way, $4000 is being spent on college. This is proposed as an incentive for college. I don't see it as a free gift because it is implied that the money is going to college. They still have to go to college and the college still has to teach.

Quote:


What college student would turn down a $40 an hour job?




It isn't a $40 an hour job, and if you prefer to look at it like that, then realize that the job only lasts two weeks. It isn't as though there will be career college students, getting paid to sit there. :lol:

Quote:


He will pay for this by raising taxes and with a troop withdrawal from Iraq.  Forget for a moment the horrifying notion that he has already begun spending the money that will be saved when the Iraq war winds down with socialist crap.  Maybe it should go towards the deficit instead of increased spending.




I believe he does have plans on the deficit, and he might not have to raise taxes, but simply let expire Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy. I see no evidence that his plans wouldn't be fiscally sound.

Quote:


1.  College costs will be increased to absorb most of the purple pony anyway.  That's right, as soon as more money becomes available to pay for a service the price of that service will rise.  Every.  Fucking.  Time.  Bet on it.




So you're saying that colleges wouldn't compete for the increase of people able to take the opportunity for college education, and that wouldn't help keep costs lower? Perhaps the cost would rise. Its already going up quite a bit.

Quote:


2.  Some people will be displaced from their low paying jobs in favor of these college kids.  This will somewhat offset the costs while at the same time marginalizing even further the people who need these jobs.  Because they aren't likely to ever become engineers.  So a new class of unemployed will be created.  Let's be conservative and say only 5 million students do 100 hrs.  100 hrs' is 5% of a full year.  5% of 5 million is 250,000 replaced jobs.  Now I have no doubt that a lot of this work will be utter bullshit but certainly there will be quite a few people losing jobs.  If the work is at all meaningful there will be even more jobs lost.  Why pay someone to do work when you can get the gummint to supply some college schmuck to do it for nothing.




Community service is going to replace 250,000 jobs? I see no reason to believe this.

Quote:


3.  People not going to college will scream bloody fucking murder.  They already resent pampered college kids.  Where's theirs?




What are you talkin about? I know a few people who love the idea of going to get more schooling to be able to get a better, higher-paying job than something like retail can provide, but they can't afford to spring for the costs anytime soon because they don't make enough in retail to cover their costs and save. Giving someone like this the opportunity will mean that, in the future, they will be paying more taxable income, which means the $4000 is an investment that pays dividends down the road.

For the people that are already in college, it is probably likely that the costs of college are being paid by their parents, which means that they receive the credit, which will help with their mortage payment. Otherwise, its likely that they have taken student loans, and it is in the government's interest to help them pay those loans off quicker, because the more money that college students have to pay on interest on their loan is money that they could be using to begin a small business after finishing their college education for doing so, for example, or money that they could use towards buying a car or a house once they find a career after college, so they can start generating more taxable income. The notion that investing in people through college education is a forecast of doom, as you have put forth, seems pretty baseless to me. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8068350 - 02/25/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

" Giving someone like this the opportunity will mean that, in the future, they will be paying more taxable income, which means the $4000 is an investment that pays dividends down the road."

This is a very good point. All too often I think the people who cry that the sky is falling when facing the taxation of democrats overlook this. Taxes are good for the economy when they do things like this, not all of the money Washington takes every year gets turned into hookers and blow.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8068749 - 02/25/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Now it becomes a fungible gift that you can use for anything at all.  I call it a gift because although it requires 100 hours of work there are very few college students who can come close to being that valuable ($40 per hour) on the marketplace and the jobs they will be required to perform will be held to the lowest common denominator.  You might as well call it a purple pony because it just as much that as a tax credit.  You just have to pay your taxes first.  Just like everybody else.




What are you talking about? Do you understand the tax incentive system? The money is going to the costs of college, either by giving someone that has no money to pay the opportunity to do so, or by paying someone back the money that they did have to pay for those costs of college. Either way, $4000 is being spent on college. This is proposed as an incentive for college. I don't see it as a free gift because it is implied that the money is going to college. They still have to go to college and the college still has to teach.




I am going to explain "fungible" to you.  When you say that something is fungible that means that it is indistiguishable from anything of like kind.  For instance a dollar spent on a bag of pot is exactly the same as a dollar spent on taxes or tuition.  The $4000 was already being spent on college, this just puts another $4000 in the hands of the student to use for whatever he/she wants.  Incentive?  If college has any value that should be incentive enough.  Will this gift allow more people to afford college?  Certainly.  Which goes to a later point in re increasing costs for college.  More people who can afford it creates more demand raises the price.  Simple, actually.  Will probably put upward pressure on bags of reefer as well.
Quote:



Quote:


What college student would turn down a $40 an hour job?




It isn't a $40 an hour job, and if you prefer to look at it like that, then realize that the job only lasts two weeks. It isn't as though there will be career college students, getting paid to sit there. :lol:




It is a gloriously overpriced temp job, for services nobody is willing to purchase or is willing to purchase at that price.  Crap, in other words.
Quote:



Quote:


He will pay for this by raising taxes and with a troop withdrawal from Iraq.  Forget for a moment the horrifying notion that he has already begun spending the money that will be saved when the Iraq war winds down with socialist crap.  Maybe it should go towards the deficit instead of increased spending.




I believe he does have plans on the deficit, and he might not have to raise taxes, but simply let expire Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy. I see no evidence that his plans wouldn't be fiscally sound.




Rescinding the tax cuts is EXACTLY a tax increase.  And the unsoundness I mention you purposely ignore.  He says it will cost $3.5B annually.  If 10% of the 10 million+ full time college students take advantage of this program it will cost $4B annually.  If you don't think more than that will take up this boondoggle you are seriously underestimating college students ability to scam the system.  They've spent their entire lives trying to get over on their parents and are well versed in scamology.
And I get sick and tired of populist scum blathering about tax cuts for the rich.  We're the ones who pay the fucking taxes.  The rest of you DON'T PAY SHIT.  What is it now?  The top 5% pay 50% of the taxes?  Top 10% pay 67%  The rest of you pay fuck all.  At what point will it ever be enough for the panhandling parasites?
Quote:



Quote:


1.  College costs will be increased to absorb most of the purple pony anyway.  That's right, as soon as more money becomes available to pay for a service the price of that service will rise.  Every.  Fucking.  Time.  Bet on it.




So you're saying that colleges wouldn't compete for the increase of people able to take the opportunity for college education, and that wouldn't help keep costs lower? Perhaps the cost would rise. Its already going up quite a bit.




Compete?  What for?  They will be handed an increase in demand.  You know what happens when there's an increase in demand.  Or don't you?  Sometimes I wonder if there actually is any educational value in a college education.  Fuck it, make 'em all glorified trade schools, cause a general education is not be found.

To add to that, I will impart a little lesson from chemistry about ionic pressure across a permeable or semi permeable membrane.  If you increase the concentration of an ion (money) on one side (student pocket) it will cross over to the other side (school) until the pressure is equalized.  They won't take it all but they will definitely increase to take more.  Inevitable.
Quote:



Quote:


2.  Some people will be displaced from their low paying jobs in favor of these college kids.  This will somewhat offset the costs while at the same time marginalizing even further the people who need these jobs.  Because they aren't likely to ever become engineers.  So a new class of unemployed will be created.  Let's be conservative and say only 5 million students do 100 hrs.  100 hrs' is 5% of a full year.  5% of 5 million is 250,000 replaced jobs.  Now I have no doubt that a lot of this work will be utter bullshit but certainly there will be quite a few people losing jobs.  If the work is at all meaningful there will be even more jobs lost.  Why pay someone to do work when you can get the gummint to supply some college schmuck to do it for nothing.




Community service is going to replace 250,000 jobs? I see no reason to believe this.




I crunched the hours for you.  Either the jobs are already being done by someone or there is no market value to the job.  "Make work", I think they call it.
Quote:



Quote:


3.  People not going to college will scream bloody fucking murder.  They already resent pampered college kids.  Where's theirs?




What are you talkin about? I know a few people who love the idea of going to get more schooling to be able to get a better, higher-paying job than something like retail can provide, but they can't afford to spring for the costs anytime soon because they don't make enough in retail to cover their costs and save. Giving someone like this the opportunity will mean that, in the future, they will be paying more taxable income, which means the $4000 is an investment that pays dividends down the road.




It seems to me that you think that everybody wants to or belongs in college.  Quite narcissistic but not surprising.  College is not the best thing for everybody.  I daresay that probably includes a huge amount of people already in college.  But I'm not going to presume to tell them what is good for them.  Nor do I think you have any business telling anybody else that they should be in college.  So, I will reiterate, what about people who don't want to or just can't benefit from college?  Where's their magic tit.
Quote:



For the people that are already in college, it is probably likely that the costs of college are being paid by their parents, which means that they receive the credit, which will help with their mortage payment. Otherwise, its likely that they have taken student loans, and it is in the government's interest to help them pay those loans off quicker, because the more money that college students have to pay on interest on their loan is money that they could be using to begin a small business after finishing their college education for doing so, for example, or money that they could use towards buying a car or a house once they find a career after college, so they can start generating more taxable income. The notion that investing in people through college education is a forecast of doom, as you have put forth, seems pretty baseless to me. :shrug:




You just made my whole argument vis a vis the fungibility of this gift.  You might as well demand a free college education for everyone who wants it.  And the same amount of money given to anyone who doesn't.  And kittens and puppies for every kindergarten kid.  And purple ponies for every middle school girl.  Or a $40 an hour temp job for anybody who wants one.  What overweening, beggarly narcissism.

Let's see, everybody gets free college.  College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one.  And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs.

Weren't you a former Paulnut?  Don't you owe me money?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8068907 - 02/25/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Let's see, everybody gets free college. College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one. And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs."

The value of education is not in having it alone, it is what you do with it. Sure everyone might not be right for college, but I can guarantee you it isn't because it is too hard for them. There's a tech-ed major for everyone.

So, zappa, what earns more GDP, a million telemarketers, or a million engineers?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: xFrockx]
    #8068939 - 02/25/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You just made the point that there can't be a million engineers. It will only add bottom feeders. The future engineers are already there.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8069368 - 02/25/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Also, in my experience, most colleges are pretty much full if not over full. Just because tens of thousands of people can now afford college, at my expense, doesn't mean that there is room in college for them. Colleges will raise the price to discourage enrollment beyond their means putting us right back where we are... minus my money that the government gave to somebody else.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Seuss]
    #8069410 - 02/25/08 05:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

But but but they'll have spiffy cars and and and really kool bongs.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8070521 - 02/25/08 10:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I love how everyone assumes the government is just throwing money at people to go to school.

I really wish I would have heard about these programs before I went 20K in debt to pay for school.

The only thing the government gave me for free was the interest on the loans. (No-Interest)


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8084929 - 02/29/08 04:21 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I am going to explain "fungible" to you.  When you say that something is fungible that means that it is indistiguishable from anything of like kind.  For instance a dollar spent on a bag of pot is exactly the same as a dollar spent on taxes or tuition.  The $4000 was already being spent on college, this just puts another $4000 in the hands of the student to use for whatever he/she wants.




The $4000 was already being spent on college, but for everyone but the wealthy, it is being spent by low to middle class parents, who are faced with a rising cost of living and a credit crisis, which means it becomes more difficult for them to afford college. Otherwise, the students are going into debt and paying a lot of interest, and I'm wondering how much the credit crisis will affect student loans if it plays out further.

The point is, if it is a choice between making a mortage payment or a college payment, which do you think will come first? If we are facing difficult times economically, not being able to send children to college to become more skilled to take on the jobs that we need to rebuild the economy will hurt us.

Quote:


  Incentive?  If college has any value that should be incentive enough.  Will this gift allow more people to afford college?  Certainly.




Yes, the value college has should be incentive enough, so perhaps using "incentive" in that regard wasn't the best thing to say, because what I meant was giving them the means to actually make it to college. Those who need that opportunity the most, if they'll take it, are people with the least amount of means to make it happen - receiving low wages and juggling payments.

Quote:


  Which goes to a later point in re increasing costs for college.  More people who can afford it creates more demand raises the price.  Simple, actually. 




This has been the most difficult aspect of this debate to address. I don't think it is that simple, though. Take this statement of yours, that more people who can afford college raises the price, and couple it with seuss's statement that most colleges are full and they would actually raise the price to maintain that level.

Has government subsidies risen the price of college? Yes, and will tax incentives likely raise the price more? Yes, but are colleges a free market? I don't know much about colleges, but if its actually getting to the point that they'd raise the prices to keep students out, then isn't there incentive for new colleges to spring forth?

I don't think government subsidies for college are the problem here, I think it is that the college system is pretty inflexible, and this needs to change. The prices would naturally go down if colleges worked as a free market. Of course, in the meantime, its more difficult for people to receive college education because the costs keep going up, but I do not feel the answer is to stop giving subsidies to college education. Obama's plan might begin to increase those prices more, but there will be created a lot of incentive for new colleges to open to meet the needs that are being created, and new colleges will come into existence to facillitate that, due to the same free market principles that makes you state that the prices, simply, will go up.

Trade laws might have put us as a disadvantage, and Obama has sought to address that, but the real problem is our inability to compete with the world, and this is the failure of our educational system, really. He's got plans acrossed the board to address this. I was researching the college system in Norway, and they provide for college through long-term loans, which brought me to wonder why Obama would seek to give tax credits... then I simply looked to the economy and realized how necessary it is to jumpstart it (hint: it won't be through Bush's tax rebates and encouragement to go shopping :lol:).

Quote:


It is a gloriously overpriced temp job, for services nobody is willing to purchase or is willing to purchase at that price.  Crap, in other words.




Of course, because its community service, and there is no monetary profit in community service. The tax credit is one thing, for one purpose, the community service is added for a different reason. It isn't intended as a job, and no one has suggested that the $4000 is actually being proposed as being equivalent to the community service.

Quote:


Rescinding the tax cuts is EXACTLY a tax increase.




The tax cuts were never permanent. This is simply letting them go back to the level they are officially set as.

Quote:


  And the unsoundness I mention you purposely ignore.  He says it will cost $3.5B annually.  If 10% of the 10 million+ full time college students take advantage of this program it will cost $4B annually.




And if 100% do it will be $40 billion annually, and if we throw in another 10 million new college students, it will be $80 billion annually. With the War in Iraq costing us $275 million a day, that's over $100 billion a year. I don't think we should be talking about unsound here, I think giving it the ole' college try is a much better investment in the future of this country. :smirk:

Quote:


And I get sick and tired of populist scum blathering about tax cuts for the rich.  We're the ones who pay the fucking taxes.  The rest of you DON'T PAY SHIT.  What is it now?  The top 5% pay 50% of the taxes?  Top 10% pay 67%  The rest of you pay fuck all.  At what point will it ever be enough for the panhandling parasites?




What are you talking about? When the top 1% of the population holds 33% of all privately held wealth and the next 19% hold 51% of it, it would only make sense that they would pay a lot more taxes than everyone else.

The top 10% own nearly 90% off all privately held stock, bonds, trust funds, business equity, and over 75% of non-home real estate.

Now, why would the idea come up that tax-cuts that do nothing but favor the top 10% are a bad thing? Hhhm.... probably because all of that wealth is generated from the rest of us. The top 10% of the population pratically own this country, so why shouldn't they pick up the country's tab?

No, you're right... lowly workers for these corporations owned by the wealthiest should be glad they can take one for the team. Its pretty amusing you'd include yourself in that wealthy elite... I'm sure the sense of entitlement is nice, but really you're just being their little bitch. :shrug:

Quote:


To add to that, I will impart a little lesson from chemistry about ionic pressure across a permeable or semi permeable membrane.  If you increase the concentration of an ion (money) on one side (student pocket) it will cross over to the other side (school) until the pressure is equalized.  They won't take it all but they will definitely increase to take more.  Inevitable.




Interesting, but it isn't really that relevant, as the student's pocket and the school don't exist in isolation. The reality of the matter is a little more dynamic and complex than that - there are other factors.

Quote:


I crunched the hours for you.  Either the jobs are already being done by someone or there is no market value to the job.  "Make work", I think they call it.




Of course there isn't much of any market value to the job, its community service. Not everything is done because it has "market value". :lol:

Quote:


It seems to me that you think that everybody wants to or belongs in college.  Quite narcissistic but not surprising.  College is not the best thing for everybody.  I daresay that probably includes a huge amount of people already in college.  But I'm not going to presume to tell them what is good for them.  Nor do I think you have any business telling anybody else that they should be in college.  So, I will reiterate, what about people who don't want to or just can't benefit from college?  Where's their magic tit.




I'm someone who skipped college, and I'm happy for it, although some of my plans for the future include getting a college education. I readily admit it isn't necessary for everyone, and I've never told anyone that they should have it. You don't need it to be intelligent or informed, but then I've been happy working an entry-level job because I don't have very many financial needs right now (I had started working my way up the ladder but it wasn't worth it, not in that corporation :lol:).

The fact is, however, that most jobs that provide any real means of creating wealth for oneself require a college education, especially since high-paying manufacturing jobs were lost to much cheaper work-forces overseas. The magic tit for those who can't or won't benefit from a college education is receiving the benefits of a prosperous economy that is powered by innovative, skilled workers. Let's keep in mind that this is just one aspect of a comprehensive plan for education reform.

Quote:


Let's see, everybody gets free college.  College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one.




What? The competitive value is in the education, not the fact that someone has went to college. How that education is applied determines competitive value, so it is still the responsibility of the individual to be capable and productive. If anything, more educated people will create more competition for jobs, and maybe that is an underlying fear from evening out the disproportionate amount of blacks and Hispanics that receive a college education? :shrug:

Quote:


  And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs.




This makes no sense. Care to expand upon that?

Quote:


Weren't you a former Paulnut?  Don't you owe me money?




No, I still am one. I don't owe you money because you never acknowledged the fact that I wanted to take your bet, but I graciously stated that I would donate that money to the Shroomery when the nomination was made. Its not my fault you don't know how to make bets. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8089316 - 03/01/08 10:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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fireworks_god said:
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zappaisgod said:
I am going to explain "fungible" to you.  When you say that something is fungible that means that it is indistiguishable from anything of like kind.  For instance a dollar spent on a bag of pot is exactly the same as a dollar spent on taxes or tuition.  The $4000 was already being spent on college, this just puts another $4000 in the hands of the student to use for whatever he/she wants.




The $4000 was already being spent on college, but for everyone but the wealthy, it is being spent by low to middle class parents, who are faced with a rising cost of living and a credit crisis, which means it becomes more difficult for them to afford college. Otherwise, the students are going into debt and paying a lot of interest, and I'm wondering how much the credit crisis will affect student loans if it plays out further.

The point is, if it is a choice between making a mortage payment or a college payment, which do you think will come first? If we are facing difficult times economically, not being able to send children to college to become more skilled to take on the jobs that we need to rebuild the economy will hurt us.

You go into debt to either make a worthwhile investment that justifies the debt or it is not a worthwhile debt that justifies the investment.  The market should determine the value of the investment.  Or you use your parent's money to make an investment that is either worthwhile or not.  The investment is either worthwhile or it is not worthwhile.  The source of funding is irrelevant to the value of the investment.  You are no more nor no less than a populist wealth redistributionist.  Own it.  Weren't you a Ron Paul guy?

As to college teaching skills that is to laugh.  A relatively small percentage of students receive any skills training.  Most receive a devalued set of credentials and nothing more.  The greatest value that college provides for employers is in identifiying those that are capable of learning.  If the doors are thrown wide open that will yet further degrade the credentials
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  Incentive?  If college has any value that should be incentive enough.  Will this gift allow more people to afford college?  Certainly.




Yes, the value college has should be incentive enough, so perhaps using "incentive" in that regard wasn't the best thing to say, because what I meant was giving them the means to actually make it to college. Those who need that opportunity the most, if they'll take it, are people with the least amount of means to make it happen - receiving low wages and juggling payments.

Another wealth redistribution argument.  And no, I do not ascribe to your thesis that college is either necessary or desirable for every intelligent person and it is most definitely a waste of time and resources for those who aren't.  This isn't BOCES.  Work hard, learn a (shudder) trade and start your own company.  It takes effort and intelligence to do that.  MORE than it takes to get a four year sociology degree and who knows, maybe you'll be able to change a light bulb at some point.

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  Which goes to a later point in re increasing costs for college.  More people who can afford it creates more demand raises the price.  Simple, actually. 




This has been the most difficult aspect of this debate to address. I don't think it is that simple, though. Take this statement of yours, that more people who can afford college raises the price, and couple it with seuss's statement that most colleges are full and they would actually raise the price to maintain that level.

Has government subsidies risen the price of college? Yes, and will tax incentives likely raise the price more? Yes, but are colleges a free market? I don't know much about colleges, but if its actually getting to the point that they'd raise the prices to keep students out, then isn't there incentive for new colleges to spring forth?

I don't think government subsidies for college are the problem here, I think it is that the college system is pretty inflexible, and this needs to change. The prices would naturally go down if colleges worked as a free market. Of course, in the meantime, its more difficult for people to receive college education because the costs keep going up, but I do not feel the answer is to stop giving subsidies to college education. Obama's plan might begin to increase those prices more, but there will be created a lot of incentive for new colleges to open to meet the needs that are being created, and new colleges will come into existence to facillitate that, due to the same free market principles that makes you state that the prices, simply, will go up.

I do not know why you think they are inflexible.  They are probably the most flexible and accomodating system in the country. 
New colleges will come in to harvest the new dollars created by an artificial need and an artificial ability to pay.  More professors and administrators and other workers will be needed.  Price pressure will rise on those trades. Prices will rise across the board.  It is utterly an inevitable result.
One of the big problems with your thinking, and I find it particularly myopic, is that college is actually preparatory for work.  It very rarely is.


Trade laws might have put us as a disadvantage, and Obama has sought to address that, but the real problem is our inability to compete with the world, and this is the failure of our educational system, really. He's got plans acrossed the board to address this. I was researching the college system in Norway, and they provide for college through long-term loans, which brought me to wonder why Obama would seek to give tax credits... then I simply looked to the economy and realized how necessary it is to jumpstart it (hint: it won't be through Bush's tax rebates and encouragement to go shopping :lol:).

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Given that you can't seem to grasp the idea of fungibility I must respectfully decline your assessment of the great socialist experiment that is Norway.
So you do actually now seem to be espousing $4000 grants.  Why didn't you just say so.  We could have avoided a great deal of column inches.  Weren't you a Paulnut?
Our inability to compete with the world?  Are you fucking kidding me?  Even with the just about the highest corporate tax rate we are still kings.  Aren't you one of the people constantly yammering about what economic bullies we are and Barry will make us more liked?  Do you want us to win or do you want us to be second class winning Miss Congeniality Awards?

It is a gloriously overpriced temp job, for services nobody is willing to purchase or is willing to purchase at that price.  Crap, in other words.




Of course, because its community service, and there is no monetary profit in community service. The tax credit is one thing, for one purpose, the community service is added for a different reason. It isn't intended as a job, and no one has suggested that the $4000 is actually being proposed as being equivalent to the community service.
It's not a tax credit if you don't have to pay taxes to get it.  It's a purple pony.  Also, you have to work for 100 hours to get it.  No workee no monee.  It's a fucking job. 

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Rescinding the tax cuts is EXACTLY a tax increase.




The tax cuts were never permanent. This is simply letting them go back to the level they are officially set as.

Let's break this down.
2008 taxes are x dollars
2009 taxes are x + more dollars
Tax increase achieved
So what level taxes do you think is OK?  Because we've had pretty much almost all of them in our history.  Face it, you and Barry want to raise taxes.  How hard is it for you to call a spade a spade?

The fucking hoops you will jump through makes Shamu look like a piker


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  And the unsoundness I mention you purposely ignore.  He says it will cost $3.5B annually.  If 10% of the 10 million+ full time college students take advantage of this program it will cost $4B annually.




And if 100% do it will be $40 billion annually, and if we throw in another 10 million new college students, it will be $80 billion annually. With the War in Iraq costing us $275 million a day, that's over $100 billion a year. I don't think we should be talking about unsound here, I think giving it the ole' college try is a much better investment in the future of this country. :smirk:
The War in Iraq is irrelevant.  This goes to the fungibility question.  When we are done there I want taxes dropped more, not redistributed to other spending programs.  Back.  Given to me.  Not to you.  Not to some professor.  Not to some welfare mother (again).  Back to me.  This just illustrates the fallacy and attitude of the left.  Any savings generated in an area of decreased public spending needs to find a new venue for public spending.  IT NEVER GOES DOWN.  The whores always find a new worthless bullshit well to throw it down. 

At any rate, my point there was about Barry's lie about the cost.  IT IS A LIE.  All it would take is 10% of college students to do this to bankrupt his projection.  Either he's amazingly stupid or he thinks you are.  I know what I think is true.

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And I get sick and tired of populist scum blathering about tax cuts for the rich.  We're the ones who pay the fucking taxes.  The rest of you DON'T PAY SHIT.  What is it now?  The top 5% pay 50% of the taxes?  Top 10% pay 67%  The rest of you pay fuck all.  At what point will it ever be enough for the panhandling parasites?




What are you talking about? When the top 1% of the population holds 33% of all privately held wealth and the next 19% hold 51% of it, it would only make sense that they would pay a lot more taxes than everyone else.

The top 10% own nearly 90% off all privately held stock, bonds, trust funds, business equity, and over 75% of non-home real estate.

Now, why would the idea come up that tax-cuts that do nothing but favor the top 10% are a bad thing? Hhhm.... probably because all of that wealth is generated from the rest of us. The top 10% of the population pratically own this country, so why shouldn't they pick up the country's tab?

Tax cuts will always favor those who pay the taxes.  Currently a small percentage of the population pays most of the taxes.  Why do you think you deserve a ride on my ass.  I may choose to give you one but I don't think I should have to give you one.  Anyway, you have shown your hairy red communist ass.  Which was no surprise to me (weren't you a Paulnut?) but at least you should have the good graces not to lie about it.  And to assist the socialist dong Barry in lying himself.  If enough of the electorate wants a commie president they should at least know that it's a commie running instead of some ill disguised liar who obfuscates the costs of the program.  Hillary is more honest.  At least she flat out said she wanted to take our profits.
The rest of your populist, envious nonsense about percent ownership is misleading.  Did you include the people's pension funds in private equity?


No, you're right... lowly workers for these corporations owned by the wealthiest should be glad they can take one for the team. Its pretty amusing you'd include yourself in that wealthy elite... I'm sure the sense of entitlement is nice, but really you're just being their little bitch. :shrug:

I am entitled to the fruits of my labors, competence and success.  YOU are not.  Get to work and get your own. (weren't you a Paulnut?)

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To add to that, I will impart a little lesson from chemistry about ionic pressure across a permeable or semi permeable membrane.  If you increase the concentration of an ion (money) on one side (student pocket) it will cross over to the other side (school) until the pressure is equalized.  They won't take it all but they will definitely increase to take more.  Inevitable.




Interesting, but it isn't really that relevant, as the student's pocket and the school don't exist in isolation. The reality of the matter is a little more dynamic and complex than that - there are other factors.

There may be other factors but none which will overcome those.  Just out of curiosity, what factors are you proposing which might put a downward pressure on costs.  Please confine yourself only to those that will come about as a result of this purple pony.

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I crunched the hours for you.  Either the jobs are already being done by someone or there is no market value to the job.  "Make work", I think they call it.




Of course there isn't much of any market value to the job, its community service. Not everything is done because it has "market value". :lol:

If there is no market value it is what we call "make work" a common union and mob scam.

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It seems to me that you think that everybody wants to or belongs in college.  Quite narcissistic but not surprising.  College is not the best thing for everybody.  I daresay that probably includes a huge amount of people already in college.  But I'm not going to presume to tell them what is good for them.  Nor do I think you have any business telling anybody else that they should be in college.  So, I will reiterate, what about people who don't want to or just can't benefit from college?  Where's their magic tit.




I'm someone who skipped college, and I'm happy for it, although some of my plans for the future include getting a college education. I readily admit it isn't necessary for everyone, and I've never told anyone that they should have it. You don't need it to be intelligent or informed, but then I've been happy working an entry-level job because I don't have very many financial needs right now (I had started working my way up the ladder but it wasn't worth it, not in that corporation :lol:).

The fact is, however, that most jobs that provide any real means of creating wealth for oneself require a college education, especially since high-paying manufacturing jobs were lost to much cheaper work-forces overseas. The magic tit for those who can't or won't benefit from a college education is receiving the benefits of a prosperous economy that is powered by innovative, skilled workers. Let's keep in mind that this is just one aspect of a comprehensive plan for education reform.

Get a trade.  Carpentry jobs are begging.  BEGGING.  And zero "education reform" is required.  The only reform needed is in attitude.

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Let's see, everybody gets free college.  College gets debased due to oversubscription, i.e. it has no competitive value because everybody has one.




What? The competitive value is in the education, not the fact that someone has went to college. How that education is applied determines competitive value, so it is still the responsibility of the individual to be capable and productive. If anything, more educated people will create more competition for jobs, and maybe that is an underlying fear from evening out the disproportionate amount of blacks and Hispanics that receive a college education? :shrug:

If everyone has a degree there is no competitive value in having the degree.  Further, the granting of a degree will have less vale because it is now granted to every monkey who can show up with a sheepskin.  Do you know what will increase?  The value of an IVY degree.  Open admission degrees mean fuck all.  Rich people win again.

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  And there is absolutely nobody left who learned how to do something useful from the age of 18-22 and we will need yet more illegal immigrants to help all the social scientists change their light bulbs.




This makes no sense. Care to expand upon that?

It makes a lot of sense.  There seems to be a general disrespect for people who can and do work competently with their hands as well as their heads and a general unwillingness to tackle unpleasant tasks which need to be done.

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Weren't you a former Paulnut?  Don't you owe me money?




No, I still am one. I don't owe you money because you never acknowledged the fact that I wanted to take your bet, but I graciously stated that I would donate that money to the Shroomery when the nomination was made. Its not my fault you don't know how to make bets. :shrug:




OK.  Fine with me.  Did you give it to the Shroomery yet?
How the fuck you can reconcile this socialist shit with Ron Paul is something that should be studied by our finest scientists.  Anything that spins that hard should supply our energy needs for centuries.


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