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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8061239 - 02/23/08 04:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8061293 - 02/23/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's hard to get a good baby sandwich these days, since they shut down all the midwestern baby ranches.
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
#8061456 - 02/23/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I support it. Too many fat fucking kids jerking off. They need to support their community and country and maybe get some benefits out of it (College money).
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (02/23/08 05:05 PM)
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: downforpot]
#8061810 - 02/23/08 06:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Luddite]
#8061855 - 02/23/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If I made a photoshop of Hitler eating a footlong seafood sensation, would that be a good counterpoint to eating at Subway?
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Luddite]
#8061864 - 02/23/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Luddite said:
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#8061964 - 02/23/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So giving tax incentives to students for doing community service is slavery and communism? Don't you think you are over-reacting? What about Peace Corps? By your rationale, we have been a communist country since WWII, when the GI bill was created to give returning vets a chance to go school.How is it going to affect you, whatsoever, if student's have the choice to get a tax break by doing some extra work?
If Obama really was trying to create mandatory community service for everyone I would be the first in line to criticize him. But you blatantly mischaracterized the situation and tried to panic everyone into thinking he is a dictator. Take a look at what you have become...you are no longer interested in being truthful.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Snork
Stranger

Registered: 09/23/07
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gluke bastid]
#8062171 - 02/23/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You know, for a site I thought would have open minded rational people, this thread reads a lot like a Fox News comment section. I think a couple of people here have already explained this policy enough that anyone who isn't unbearably biased will at least understand (not neccessarily agree with) the policy.
I'm surprised at the resistance this community has for community service. You know, the interconnectedness drugs often reveal in life isn't just an illusion. That's still there even when your sober. Helping others is helping yourself.
Anyway, my two cents...
To those complaining that having high school students do community service as part of school is somehow slavery, or a waste of time... I'm a few years out of highschool. There are SO many wasted hours of drivvel that we learn (and I went to a pretty good public HS) I'm sure there's room to accomidate this. Second, HS is mandatory. Gym is often mandatory. If they can MANDATE that you show up to a building at 8 am, and make you run laps around a track I see no new boundaries being pushed here. What it doesn't seem to specifiy is if this would be during school hours. I don't think it should be something the student should be responsible for outside of school hours. Meaning... the student gets to leave the confines of the school for a while. Many studnets would see this as a good thing.
As far as the college aspect of this goes... I'm glad to see more government assistance that doesn't include MILITARY service.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Posts: 44,175
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Snork]
#8062384 - 02/23/08 09:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
#8062422 - 02/23/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Managing your money is work.
In the sense that any sort of process that a human being carries out is an expenditure in energy, I guess it is work. We aren't talking about the scientific definition of work, though, but rather labor. Community service isn't labor. Its education.
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Boy was that ever devoid of substance. Much like Obama.
I was speaking in a general sense. What I was saying with that is that the laws have been changed by the government to give corporations far too much advantage, from the local to the federal level. My point is that a free market works most effectively, but that the economic policy we have now is not a free market. Everything from our international trade agreements to our local tax breaks for the large corporations that come in to compete with local business has been tilted towards the special interests of the large corporations.
The free market isn't there because of how the framework (the laws) within which corporations have to exist has been bought by those same interests to benefit them. When you do not have a balance that ensures a wealthy middle class, through effective use of government, the country gets into economic trouble. Obama is simply going to reform economic policies to change the rules that corporations play by a little bit to keep a wealthy middle class. We don't need a super-wealthy aristocracy with a greatly expanded poor class that plants potatoes and works in the wealthy's mansions.
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There was a time in this country when women couldn't work. That time was the good old days you refer to. Minorities were squelched as well. This romanticizing of the fifties and sixties is quite overblown. It wasn't all wine and roses then.
Yes, but we are talking economics, not civil rights, so what you are saying here really doesn't pertain to reality.
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For somebody who seems to accept the notion of saving and investing you sure do seem to think those entities one can invest in should be somehow subjugated to some greater worker interest. Kind cuts that nut right off.
Liken it to investing in the economy, if you wish. A stable one is necessary for there to be stability in the savings and investing ventures that one undertakes. A wealthy middle class has to exist for a stable, wealthy economy.
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More populist crap from the ghost of no policy. Corporate interest is people interest in the purest sense. Who do you think owns corporations? Martians? Gerbils?
Who do you think owns government? Have you ever heard of taxes? Corporate interest might be in the interest of securing profit for its shareholders, who are people, but government exists to ensure that the people's interests that supercede simply securing profit are secured, and guess whose tool the government is to accomplish that? The people. Humans are free to use government to make reality more into their interest, and, at the same time, maintain a free market for corporations to be prosperous within. The question is simply of in which manner is the market free.
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I said refuse. There are quite enough handouts for the truly unfortunate. In addition, I don't think popping out babies willy nilly with no visible means to support them is a misfortune. That is not something that happens to you, it is something you choose to do. It is also the single greatest cause of poverty.
I agree strongly that people who are not supporting themselves financially should not be producing children. I find the fact that these people produce so many children like this something that needs to be addressed.
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No, people should not all be rewarded equally, but no one has ever No it doesn't at all, I was referring to available assistance. There are more than enough programs, run horribly inefficiently, at great enough expense. Will Obama wave his magic wand and make bureaucracy efficient? And the confiscatory taxes necessary to pay for his grand populist vision are quite a disincentive to strive.
He has measures to try to bust through inefficency, mostly through implementing technological advances, yes, but its not as though they would be implementing too much of a tax on the wealthy, but rather restoring ones that had existed at one time.
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Of course it does. When you have slaves why pay workers?
Community service isn't slavery.
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Wow, just wow. No matter how you dress it up it is still compulsory labor.
No more than school already is, and community service isn't actually labor, especially if it is in schools. Are you proposing that the government will use it as a way to simply own everyone and assign them their work that they will do for the rest of their life? Make school last a life-time? I bet that's the fear. It seems like a slippery slope arguement to me.
People choose the government, and I don't see people choosing that, as stupid as people are. People could put a lock on it. Start approaching petitions for an initiative that states that government cannot force you to do more than x hours of community service through schools. People will sign. Pass a law. There are advocacy groups that get this kind of stuff accomplished.
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Hitler was a socialist.
No, he just pretended to be one to the people. He was just a fascist dictator.
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I repeat, not everything is about the Obamessiah.
Clearly, but this is a thread about Obama and his stances and I felt the need to express the distinction between what was being discussed and Obama.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8062509 - 02/23/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Community service isn't labor. Its education.

It can be labor. It can be educational. It can be punishment. It can be any combination of those things.
I'm a bit on the lazy side here, so I will not be reading most of this thread, nor will I be researching this issue. I would be against making community service a requirement for graduation, and less against giving money for college to kids who do community service.
I won't vote for Obama (or McCain) regardless.
Sorry. I only meant to point out that it is ridiculous to say that community service is not labor, and I ended up rambling.
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
#8062519 - 02/23/08 10:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ziggen said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Community service isn't labor. Its education.

It can be labor. It can be educational. It can be punishment. It can be any combination of those things.
I'm a bit on the lazy side here, so I will not be reading most of this thread, nor will I be researching this issue. I would be against making community service a requirement for graduation, and less against giving money for college to kids who do community service.
Of course you don't want to do it... You said your self.... YOU ARE LAZY.
My high school has a requirement for an internship or community service and a college class. Booo fucking hoo. It was a private college prep HS by the way. OMG, THEY MADE ME WORK, OMG OMG, IHATED WORKING AT THAT HOSPITAL, THE HORROR, THE HORROR.
Imagine if everyone's HS was like mine!!!!!!!! It would be hell on earth, omg. All of my friends getting scholarships and me getting a full ride to a university. OMG, THE WORST HS EXPERIENCE EVER, EVER!!!!!!
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (02/23/08 10:22 PM)
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
#8062568 - 02/23/08 10:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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What is the penalty for not completeing these hours? I'm pretty sure if this becomes a law someone will break it and it'll be a test case for the Supreme Court and undone pretty quick.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: learningtofly]
#8062771 - 02/23/08 11:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said: What is the penalty for not completeing these hours? I'm pretty sure if this becomes a law someone will break it and it'll be a test case for the Supreme Court and undone pretty quick.
What happens if you don't do your homework in class and fuck up the tests? You fail the class. Same thing.
It isn't anything more than school is now. Its just a different kind of class.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063525 - 02/24/08 07:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063635 - 02/24/08 08:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You are entirely correct. It has varying degrees of worthlessness for most students and is utterly useless for poor students. Which is probably a good thing because paying no skill workers $40 an hour is pretty fucking stupid.
And let us all not forget the ideal of government, that IT serve THE PEOPLE and not the other way around, which is borg think. Fuck JFK, he was an asshole.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063849 - 02/24/08 10:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
Well, its only for college students, but it is a great question that, without opening another window to begin investigating it, one could only speculate as to what is specifically met.
Its a one-time tax credit I do believe (or did he say $4000 a year.... ), and its hard to say exactly when you take the tax credit. Anyways, you have to take a look at how it changes the way it works now, which is, of course, that people who do not otherwise receive scholarships or assistance either work or take student loans and eventually then work to pay off college.
I don't see the proposal empty if it is means that it is there to be taken as you do generate an income, that it isn't limited to be taken within one year, etc., and as of yet I don't see anything that suggests it, as clearly the plan is not too specific. The full plan would have to be unveiled and it would have to work its way through Congress.
Anyways, at some point everyone that goes through college generates income, and this is ultimately saying that the first $4000 they make is not taxable income, as it is now, if they also participate in community service, and this will help offset the cost of college. Even if not very many people could use it, it would still be an improvement than the way it was before.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
#8063978 - 02/24/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
full time students are exempt from taxes
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
#8064198 - 02/24/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
Well, its only for college students, but it is a great question that, without opening another window to begin investigating it, one could only speculate as to what is specifically met.
Its a one-time tax credit I do believe (or did he say $4000 a year.... ), and its hard to say exactly when you take the tax credit. Anyways, you have to take a look at how it changes the way it works now, which is, of course, that people who do not otherwise receive scholarships or assistance either work or take student loans and eventually then work to pay off college.
Here's what it says: (is there any way to cut and paste a fucking pdf? They suck cock)
Quote:
This fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university. Recipients.... yada yada 100 hours of community service per year
In order for it to cover 2/3 of tuition, which is around $6000 per annum at public schools, it would have to be annual and it would have to be taken in the year it was spent. Now I examined the tax tables. What follows is four threshold income levels for each $1000 tax paid for single people or married filing separately. Other categories require slightly greater income to reach the threshold:
$1000 tax----$9,300 income $2000 tax---$16,000 income $3000 tax---$22,600 income $4000 tax---$29,300 income
Tax credits cannot be banked, they must be taken each year, thus a student would need to have an adjusted gross income of nearly $30,000 to take full advantage. That's a full time $15.00 an hour job. What full time student has that? The truly poor student receives very little benefit at all and almost no students will qualify for the maximum. People who will benefit are parents who are funding their child's education and make above $30,000 adjusted gross.
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I don't see the proposal empty if it is means that it is there to be taken as you do generate an income, that it isn't limited to be taken within one year, etc., and as of yet I don't see anything that suggests it, as clearly the plan is not too specific. The full plan would have to be unveiled and it would have to work its way through Congress.
Unveiled? I like that. More like undressed as it goes through Congress.Quote:
Anyways, at some point everyone that goes through college generates income, and this is ultimately saying that the first $4000 they make is not taxable income, as it is now, if they also participate in community service, and this will help offset the cost of college. Even if not very many people could use it, it would still be an improvement than the way it was before.
Well, it is certainly an improvement for some middle class (and above) parents. Anybody else, not so much. But why should we be subsidizing them? How is that the least bit fair to people who choose not to go to college or are too stupid to get in? Or the really poor? And why the fuck should we pay some unskilled doofus $40 an hour to perform some task that is probably already being done by some poor schmuck at $13.00 an hour? What about that schmuck who just lost his job so people who make more money than him get a break on college for their kids?
Once you get past the hype, scrutiny is going to be one hell of a bitch for the Messiah.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8064204 - 02/24/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Redstorm said: No one has clarified how a $4000 tax credit is going to help your average high school or college student. Most of these people pay nowhere near $4000 a year in taxes.
Anyone?
full time students are exempt from taxes
They are?
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