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Offlineblackegg
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
    #8059528 - 02/23/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So home school 'em... what the big *to do* about?

that's the only way you're not going to have any governement telling your kids what to think.

here in Texas they don't even have to test out to graduate...or so I've been told.

Edit:
Quote:

Its really simple.



There is nothing simple about politics IMO.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


Edited by blackegg (02/23/08 08:17 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
    #8059539 - 02/23/08 08:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I could expect somone with the user name crumb bum, to find a nanny government to wipe your ass for you, as an ideal. :tongue:

"The planet already has commie countries with dictators. Ever thought about immigrating to North Korea?:)

I don't appreciate anyone trying to turn my Free country into one, including Barrack.:nonono:




Wow. You're really just kind of a miserable debater. You ACTUALLY went to the point of using an Ad Hominem argument about my SCREEN NAME, and then ignored most of the rest of what I'd said in favor of actually using the old "Well if you like it like that you can move to Cuba but ain't no one gonna change my 'Merica!"

Your FREE country? You're on a website where the primary discussion revolves around doing a LARGE variety of things for which this government would KIDNAP and BLACKMAIL us for doing. Any one of us, should our actually prosecuteable offenses be calculated, would probably spend the rest of our lives in jail. Shit, I'd probably get more than 100 hours of community service for the paltry ammount of weed I've got on me now. Can you IMAGINE if the police were efficient enough to discover and charge any of us, as they'd like to?




Blame your neighbors, not the gummint.  If your neighbors wanted drugs legal they would be.  The collective is an ass.  The police are just executing the wishes of your neighbors. 
Quote:



That's just the most topical example, there are hundreds more.




Actually, there are thousands of laws.  Tens of thousands, even.
Quote:



Even if we were somehow "Free", how, in a capitalist society, are we ever free from labor?
No, never, until you die.  Do you think, given the fact that labor is necessary for survival, that you should get to sit on your great glorious ass and be fed?

We actually have less choice about our actual jobs then we do about community service.
Bullshit.  As far as I know we can endeavor to enter any job we can qualify and strive for.

As an American, you'll rise to roughly your level.
Well?  This is a problem?  You take issue with a meritocracy?  By the way, you won't if you don't try and if you get a little lucky you may well exceed "Your Level."  Whatever that is.

If you're dumb you do manual, unskilled labor or service. If you're smart you'll go to college and enter into the middle class and do some vaguely intellectually involved job. If you're smart and ammoral, you'll enter into the upper middle class, and do less work. If you're dumb or smart and born into the upper class, you'll do little or no work, and any that you do will be chiefly symbolic.
How wonderful for you that you think you are somehow entitled to tell me what I can do with my well earned fortune in regards to the life of my children.  What a miserably envious victim.  Also quite wrong that the children of the very wealthy are all useless Paris Hiltons.  What a bigot.


The options outside of this scheme are unattractive, difficult, and shunned, and rightfully so, as they all represent some kind of rejection of this system that, if practiced as maxim, would cause the collapse of the whole.
Bullshit

We have the illusion, within capitalism, that we EARN things.
Well founded, one might add



Rather the opposite, we have only what others give us, and it's the ultimate goal of capitalism to minimalize that number.
What daft crap.  First of all, capitalism doesn't have goals.  It is a system.  Only sentient beings can have goals.  And the goal of capitalists is to maximize the benefits for all who achieve.  Socialism is the giving system, not capitalism.  You don't get given anything in capitalism.  Keep that hand out and hope nobody spits in it.

Your boss can't deny you your promised wage, more than that? Doesn't matter how hard you work. What matters is if the people who have more are willing to give some of it to you, to ensure further loyalty.
How sad that you have not been able to shop your labor to the highest bidder.  Oh.  Wait a minute.  You were.  Perhaps your labor isn't quite worth what you think it is.  Too bad.


So if you can outline for me what exactly about America's econimic system makes us free, or how free our legal system is, than go ahead.
Somebody seems to be conflating the two senses of free.  There's the something for nothing sense and then there's the choice sense.  You don't get anything for nothing and you are quite free to do nothing and die.  Or sell your labor to the highest bidder, or take less and get something else.  I don't see you being marched off to a work farm, like you want my child to do.

And how quickly you resort to claiming that this will entail the government holding our hands and wiping our asses. How does that even APPLY to this situation outside from being a general put down of liberal thinking? Do you REALLY think that you're so independent? If you don't want any help from a government, go live in the woods! As long as we reguard and movement along a continuum as a catapualting towards the most extreme conclusion (I.E. assuming that a favor for minor socialism is essentially a loyalty oath to Stalin), then why don't you just go totally independent and live off the grid without government protection or manufactured goods?
So silly, either anarchist or totalitarian socialist.  How......nuanced.

We agree to governments because we want a big group to help us. There's no other reason for a government. ALL government spending is socialism and liberalism. We're the wealthiest nation on the earth.
Not quite.  We agree to government because it is advantageous.  It is not advantageous for the population in general to labor to support those who refuse and it is not advantageous to reward all equally.  No one will strive except under fear of repression, work camps, etc.  and we will collapse into a shithole like the SU and Cuba and N. Korea, China, etc.

Why, exactly, is one person's right to make money more valuable than another persons need to eat food or get medical attention?
We currently have a system that takes care of that.  Anybody who can't get either of those things has no one to blame but themselves.  I haven't seen a conflict, Karl and in fact the people who make money, evil fucks that they are, do pay for these services for the losers.  We don't want to pay for their nintendos.  Those they can buy for themselves.

Ultimately why I support this is that in the best case scenario high school and college kids will learn to do nice things for other people without expecting too much in return
Shouldn't that be up to them?
, and will perhaps learn to enjoy spending time with the elderly or cleaning up the park and become less economically minded and more concerned with what they can do to help people around them.
Why should they be compelled to help anyone?  What about the people who are being paid to help the elderly and clean up the parks?  What of them?  Back to the streets?

And in the worst case, they can learn to work for hours at a time and to ultimately have nothing to show for it, which will be the pattern of the rest of their lives.
I'm so sorry that you have become such a bitter person and that you have nothing to show for your life.
 

There are countless other benefits along the gamut. After a few generations, it would promote a better work ethic and a generally stronger work force.
"Arbeit macht frei".  You have zero evidence to back this up and in fact there is plenty of evidence that unrewarded work leads to a diminution of the work effort.  Except vodka distillers.

As for the poster who compared this to the draft.... come on.
I didn't compare it to the draft.  I asked if you supported the draft.

I mean, really, talk about stupid emotive comparisons.  In one, we took a generation of kids and sent them overseas to kill and die. This plan proposes we take a generation of kids and send them into their own neighborhoods to clean stuff. You can shout "Forced Labor is Forced Labor" all you like, but these, and slavery, are qualitatively different things,
Qualitatively different?  No, they are quantitatively different.  It's only a question of degree, not kind.

and it's a fairly basic bit of sophistry to try and equivocate them with one another. One could just as easily take any two events with similar components, focus on the right elements, and erroneously equate the two. Your argument hinges on the recognition and focus on the factors of the situation you've been trained to see as important. "Community Service". The first thing you see isn't what they'll be doing, or why. It's that they won't get paid. Really, in our society, what's more interesting, what you do for a living, or how much it pays? Who has more in common, a rich doctor and a poor nurse, or a rich doctor and a rich lawyer?
So what?  I know there is some egalitarian ideal swirling around in your brain but life reality is that "All People are Created Equal" is a legal doctrine and not an actual description of any kind of reality.  Otherwise we would all be taking turns playing shortstop for the NY Yankees.  I would have the exact same objection to this community service jive if they WERE getting paid. 

I mean honestly, as old, stodgy and conservative as you're trying to come off, I'm surprised you're opposed to forcing the teenagers and snotty twenty somethings to do some chores round the nation to build 'em some character...
Well, this is the thing, as a conservative, I am the anti-fascist.  It is the left that has all of the fascist tendencies.  Build character?  Character by whose standards?  Yours?  I don't think so, Karl




I reiterate the point, I dislike teenagers. And I really won't give a fuck about spending a month leafblowing the park, but snotty, preppy and emo little teenagers will be miserable, and I'll be there to enjoy it, so this all works out really well for me. I'll work part time smoking weed behind trees, feeding bread to ducks, and leaf blowing. It'd be cool if the park was a little cleaner, and the teenagers were a little less happy and a little more humble.




So essentially you want teenagers to work because you are an envious crank and want everybody to be as miserable as you are.  Your interest is not in improving anyone's existence it is to make everybody as miserable as yourself.  As  perfect an encapsulation of the left as I have ever seen.


--------------------


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
    #8059559 - 02/23/08 08:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

They're not receiving $4000 anyways. They're receiving $4000 in tax breaks, which is useless for high schoolers and college students. More useful would be a loan forgiveness program.

Mandatory volunteer work is contrary to the idea of volunteer work.

From the Ayn Rand Institute:

Quote:

How is it that ARI, which opposes servitude and volunteerism, offers volunteer opportunities?
ARI supports volunteering so long as it is done selfishly and … voluntarily!

What ARI repudiates is the mandatory “volunteering” (a contradiction in terms) or “community service” that some schools require of their students as a condition of graduation. Such requirements are meant to instill in young minds a sense of altruistic duty, i.e., unchosen obligation, toward others.

The morality of altruism holds that the good consists of service to others—not the pursuit of one’s own values and interests. On this view, a student who miserably dishes out broth in a soup kitchen is morally superior to a student who spends his afternoons studying in the library so that he can one day become a doctor. That is the perverse view ARI opposes.

Forced “volunteering” requires that students sacrifice their time and judgment by demanding that they devote time to causes they may not support. In contrast, ARI’s volunteer program is truly voluntary. Our volunteers support our mission and selfishly choose to invest some of their time helping us accomplish it. It is not an act of self-sacrifice—it is a means of pursuing their own values.




That is how volunteer work should be done; the same as employment. A mutually consenting contract in which both parties are granted a benefit.


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Invisiblebradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
Re: All middle, high school and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Redstorm]
    #8059563 - 02/23/08 08:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The reward for community service? They give the money they stole from you back to you when you're earning enough to get it back. Fucking ridiculous!


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8059583 - 02/23/08 08:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Do you realize you are describing communism?




:rofl2:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,855
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8059906 - 02/23/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No, never, until you die.  Do you think, given the fact that labor is necessary for survival, that you should get to sit on your great glorious ass and be fed?




Yes, it is possible to be free from labor if wealth is invested, conserved, and utilized effectively. Retirement savings is an example of this. 

Quote:


What daft crap.  First of all, capitalism doesn't have goals.  It is a system.  Only sentient beings can have goals.  And the goal of capitalists is to maximize the benefits for all who achieve.  Socialism is the giving system, not capitalism.  You don't get given anything in capitalism.  Keep that hand out and hope nobody spits in it.




Well, you two might be arguing about socialism, but I'd just like to enter into this debate but represent the view of Obama's campaign. With Obama, we aren't talking about socialism. Obama has a pragmatic approach to the economy that is more respective of the free-market than the Bush administration has been.

With Obama, what you will see is a reform of the framework within which corporations can operate, and to also lessen the collusion that some industries have had with the government in order to bring more competition into their industry, such as with pharmaceuticals.

The times that America has been most successful as an economy is when there has been a strong middle class. The role of government is to form the framework within which the economy operates. Obama's policies seem to be the best for what the country needs right now regarding that, not hypocritical lobbyist for the telecommunications industry McCain. :rolleyes:

Quote:


How sad that you have not been able to shop your labor to the highest bidder.  Oh.  Wait a minute.  You were.  Perhaps your labor isn't quite worth what you think it is.  Too bad.




Obama's said something interesting, which was that, if you work in America, you should be able to afford to live. There was a time in this country when one partner in a marriage could work a full-time job and the other could stay at home, and they could afford to own a house and a car. As the role the government plays in providing the framework for the economy changes towards policies in which the well-being of the working class is not accounted for, the more people who do work struggle to make ends meet, no failure of their own, and the more the economy worsens. Corporate interest is not in interest of the well-being of the people to enough extent to ensure their well-being - that is why the people have government, it is their tool to protect the interest of everyone. Also, giving assistance to the poor is a wise move when it is done in an effective manner because then they can become working middle class as well.

Quote:


There's the something for nothing sense and then there's the choice sense.  You don't get anything for nothing and you are quite free to do nothing and die.  Or sell your labor to the highest bidder, or take less and get something else.  I don't see you being marched off to a work farm, like you want my child to do.




Its a question of the way government outlines the shape of the economy, and in whose interest they act. There has to be a balance between acting in corporate interest and acting in people interest. As has been said, Obama will have business at the table, but business will not have boughten all the chairs. :smirk: 

Quote:


It is not advantageous for the population in general to labor to support those who refuse and it is not advantageous to reward all equally. 




It is advantageous for people who have faced hardships or inabilities to be worked with to become productive again. Its not like people just go crawl into the bushes and die if they can't, for whatever reason, make ends meet. Have you ever heard of crime?

No, people should not all be rewarded equally, but no one has ever spoke of that, at least regarding Obama's campaign for President.

Quote:


We currently have a system that takes care of that.  Anybody who can't get either of those things has no one to blame but themselves.




That would have to assume the fallacy of equal opportunity. No one has proposed regarding Obama that he would do anything but provide everyone an opportunity to generate their own wealth.

Quote:


Why should they be compelled to help anyone?  What about the people who are being paid to help the elderly and clean up the parks?  What of them?  Back to the streets?




I don't really know that community service means that park employees and nurses in a nursing home will be replaced. :lol:

We're talking about spending time learning from an older person who is just happy to have someone to talk to, or helping make soup somewhere for some homeless or something. Why should they be compelled? Why not? If school can give you a test on mathematics, it can give you an assignment to go plant wildflowers alongside a road somewhere. Perhaps essays would be written. I don't comprehend why community service in public schools would be such a bad thing. :shrug:

Quote:


"Arbeit macht frei".  You have zero evidence to back this up and in fact there is plenty of evidence that unrewarded work leads to a diminution of the work effort.




We aren't talking about work here. We aren't talking about labor here. We're talking about community service. Its within an educational context, especially if it is within public schools. :lol: Its amazing how crazy some of you are. :smirk:

Quote:


Well, this is the thing, as a conservative, I am the anti-fascist.  It is the left that has all of the fascist tendencies.  Build character?  Character by whose standards?  Yours?  I don't think so, Karl




Nonsense. Fascism can be of the right (Hitler) or some kind of corporatism, bipartisan, middle of the road fascism.

Quote:


So essentially you want teenagers to work because you are an envious crank and want everybody to be as miserable as you are.  Your interest is not in improving anyone's existence it is to make everybody as miserable as yourself.  As  perfect an encapsulation of the left as I have ever seen.




That does seem to be the case with that attitude, but I don't think it is representative of Obama or his positions. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblebradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8059966 - 02/23/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You're distracted by the finer detail and aren't looking at the big picture. Obama is ALL about socialism. You're a fool if you think that he isn't.

Tax cuts for the rich and giving more government assitance to the poorer is not the way to save the economy from the road it is taking. Ron Paul has recently given all Americans a lesson in economics. You should look it up if you really want to save the middle class and stop a large government run economy that will always favor the rich with its economic policies.

Communism doesn't work. Giving the money from the richer classes to the lower classes doesn't work. Giving 'tax breaks' to any division of class doesn't work. We have seen all kinds of bogus solutions throughout the 20th century. Now its time to get real and change the whole economic structure back to the way it should be.


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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Offlineblackegg
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
    #8059981 - 02/23/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Which candidate is a viable alternative to Obama then?
and why aren't you spending time promoting him    .........or her :naughty: ??


Can I suggest an answer for you?
It's because you don't really have an alternate!
:bitchsmack:
...so you come in here tracking your shitty memes all over the place
from whatever militant, Koresh-ian Con World you crawled out of
... expecting people not to confront you with reality.

I'm being facetious of course
:royalrainbow:
but... really.

what POSSIBLE alternatives are you suggesting?

because I for one have yet to hear any!





:bongload:
okay, I'm done for now.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblebradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
    #8059991 - 02/23/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its not a popularity contest. Its about sound money and economic policies. You do your own research into which candidate has the economic policies that'll save us from our current road. I

I'm not here to tell anyone who to vote for.

The more educated you are about economics the more obvious it is which candidate has the right idea. I recently had an economic wake up call from one candidate but its not my job to tell you who to vote for. You have to come to your own decision about that.


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


Edited by bradmassive (02/23/08 04:10 PM)


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Offlineblackegg
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
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Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
    #8060052 - 02/23/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well, apparently I'm not educated enough to see how obvious it all is.:sad:

Also, I wasn't asking..  you, of all people,  who I should vote for. It's clear as day to me that we see things differently.
No, I was asking who you think is better than Obama.



--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


Edited by blackegg (02/23/08 11:55 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8060068 - 02/23/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No, never, until you die.  Do you think, given the fact that labor is necessary for survival, that you should get to sit on your great glorious ass and be fed?




Yes, it is possible to be free from labor if wealth is invested, conserved, and utilized effectively. Retirement savings is an example of this.




Managing your money is work. 
Quote:



Quote:


What daft crap.  First of all, capitalism doesn't have goals.  It is a system.  Only sentient beings can have goals.  And the goal of capitalists is to maximize the benefits for all who achieve.  Socialism is the giving system, not capitalism.  You don't get given anything in capitalism.  Keep that hand out and hope nobody spits in it.




Well, you two might be arguing about socialism, but I'd just like to enter into this debate but represent the view of Obama's campaign. With Obama, we aren't talking about socialism. Obama has a pragmatic approach to the economy that is more respective of the free-market than the Bush administration has been.

With Obama, what you will see is a reform of the framework within which corporations can operate, and to also lessen the collusion that some industries have had with the government in order to bring more competition into their industry, such as with pharmaceuticals.

The times that America has been most successful as an economy is when there has been a strong middle class. The role of government is to form the framework within which the economy operates. Obama's policies seem to be the best for what the country needs right now regarding that, not hypocritical lobbyist for the telecommunications industry McCain. :rolleyes:









Boy was that ever devoid of substance.  Much like Obama.
Quote:



Quote:


How sad that you have not been able to shop your labor to the highest bidder.  Oh.  Wait a minute.  You were.  Perhaps your labor isn't quite worth what you think it is.  Too bad.




Obama's said something interesting, which was that, if you work in America, you should be able to afford to live. There was a time in this country when one partner in a marriage could work a full-time job and the other could stay at home, and they could afford to own a house and a car. As the role the government plays in providing the framework for the economy changes towards policies in which the well-being of the working class is not accounted for, the more people who do work struggle to make ends meet, no failure of their own, and the more the economy worsens. Corporate interest is not in interest of the well-being of the people to enough extent to ensure their well-being - that is why the people have government, it is their tool to protect the interest of everyone. Also, giving assistance to the poor is a wise move when it is done in an effective manner because then they can become working middle class as well.




There was a time in this country when women couldn't work.  That time was the good old days you refer to.  Minorities were squelched as well.  This romanticizing of the fifties and sixties is quite overblown.  It wasn't all wine and roses then. 

For somebody who seems to accept the notion of saving and investing you sure do seem to think those entities one can invest in should be somehow subjugated to some greater worker interest.  Kind cuts that nut right off.
Quote:



Quote:


There's the something for nothing sense and then there's the choice sense.  You don't get anything for nothing and you are quite free to do nothing and die.  Or sell your labor to the highest bidder, or take less and get something else.  I don't see you being marched off to a work farm, like you want my child to do.




Its a question of the way government outlines the shape of the economy, and in whose interest they act. There has to be a balance between acting in corporate interest and acting in people interest. As has been said, Obama will have business at the table, but business will not have boughten all the chairs. :smirk:




More populist crap from the ghost of no policy.  Corporate interest is people interest in the purest sense.  Who do you think owns corporations?  Martians?  Gerbils?
Quote:

 

Quote:


It is not advantageous for the population in general to labor to support those who refuse and it is not advantageous to reward all equally. 




It is advantageous for people who have faced hardships or inabilities to be worked with to become productive again. Its not like people just go crawl into the bushes and die if they can't, for whatever reason, make ends meet. Have you ever heard of crime?




I said refuse.  There are quite enough handouts for the truly unfortunate.  In addition, I don't think popping out babies willy nilly with no visible means to support them is a misfortune.  That is not something that happens to you, it is something you choose to do.  It is also the single greatest cause of poverty.
Quote:



No, people should not all be rewarded equally, but no one has ever spoke of that, at least regarding Obama's campaign for President.



That goes to crumble's whine that he has nothing to show for his labors.  Not everything is about the Messiah, doncha know?
Quote:



Quote:


We currently have a system that takes care of that.  Anybody who can't get either of those things has no one to blame but themselves.




That would have to assume the fallacy of equal opportunity. No one has proposed regarding Obama that he would do anything but provide everyone an opportunity to generate their own wealth.




No it doesn't at all, I was referring to available assistance.  There are more than enough programs, run horribly inefficiently, at great enough expense.  Will Obama wave his magic wand and make bureaucracy efficient?  And the confiscatory taxes necessary to pay for his grand populist vision are quite a disincentive to strive.
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Why should they be compelled to help anyone?  What about the people who are being paid to help the elderly and clean up the parks?  What of them?  Back to the streets?




I don't really know that community service means that park employees and nurses in a nursing home will be replaced. :lol:




Of course it does.  When you have slaves why pay workers?
Quote:



We're talking about spending time learning from an older person who is just happy to have someone to talk to, or helping make soup somewhere for some homeless or something. Why should they be compelled? Why not? If school can give you a test on mathematics, it can give you an assignment to go plant wildflowers alongside a road somewhere. Perhaps essays would be written. I don't comprehend why community service in public schools would be such a bad thing. :shrug:




Wow, just wow.  No matter how you dress it up it is still  compulsory labor.  Schools are already too far into this kind of crap but that isn't what is being discussed here.  What about home school kids?  We are talking the government compelling community service.  Bullshit.  I'll go spend some time with a geezer and plant wildflowers if I want to.  If you tell me or my kid we have to you will find one obstinate bastard telling you to suck my dick.
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"Arbeit macht frei".  You have zero evidence to back this up and in fact there is plenty of evidence that unrewarded work leads to a diminution of the work effort.




We aren't talking about work here. We aren't talking about labor here. We're talking about community service. Its within an educational context, especially if it is within public schools. :lol: Its amazing how crazy some of you are. :smirk:



If you don't voluntarily do it, it is work.  Not LOL is how amazingly fascist the left is.
Quote:



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Well, this is the thing, as a conservative, I am the anti-fascist.  It is the left that has all of the fascist tendencies.  Build character?  Character by whose standards?  Yours?  I don't think so, Karl




Nonsense. Fascism can be of the right (Hitler) or some kind of corporatism, bipartisan, middle of the road fascism.




Hitler was a socialist.
Quote:



Quote:


So essentially you want teenagers to work because you are an envious crank and want everybody to be as miserable as you are.  Your interest is not in improving anyone's existence it is to make everybody as miserable as yourself.  As  perfect an encapsulation of the left as I have ever seen.




That does seem to be the case with that attitude, but I don't think it is representative of Obama or his positions. :thumbup:




I repeat, not everything is about the Obamessiah.


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Invisiblebradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
    #8060086 - 02/23/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
Well, apparently I'm not educated enough to see how obvious it all is.:sad:

Also, I wasn't asking..  you, of all people,  who I should vote for. It's clear as day to me that we see things differently.
No, I was asking who is better than Obama.


\

Who is better than Obama? What do you mean? Your question doesn't make sense without context.

I think Obama is probably the lesser of two evils if we go by what he has to say (not that I put much stock in that anymore looking at his voting record).

If you haven't taken a look at what Ron Paul has to say yet (especially on foreign and economic policy) then I urge you to do so.

That is all I have to say.


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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Offlineblackegg
...has left the building.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: bradmassive]
    #8060127 - 02/23/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Who is better than Obama? What do you mean? Your question doesn't make sense without context.





Well, let me see I believe we were talking about economics.

but let me check.

Quote:

Its not a popularity contest. Its about sound money and economic policies. You do your own research into which candidate has the economic policies that will save us from our current road. I'm not here to tell anyone who to vote for. The more educated you are about economics the more obvious it is which candidate has the right idea. As I've said, I recently had an economic wake up call from one candidate in particular, but its not my job to tell you who to vote for. You have to come to your own intelligent decision about that.







Yep, economics.:grin:


And speaking of not making sense without context...what 'current road' othat we need saving from are you talking about?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlineblackegg
...has left the building.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
    #8060137 - 02/23/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'll have to take that answer later,
peace.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: blackegg]
    #8060272 - 02/23/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



Edited by Luddite (02/23/08 01:38 PM)


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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8061013 - 02/23/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

zappaisgod

Somewhere between calling me "Karl", resorting to ad hominem arguments, and actually taking time to reply to the sarcastic, humorous points, you've lost any pretense of being a serious thinker. You've got a touch of rationality to you, but your need to be right overpowers everything else.

Your seriously using all the procrapitalism anticommunist slogans of the baby boomer gen, along with all the emotive baggage.


COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK


Lets examine this common assertion.

How, exactly, do you know? The oldest communist systems on the planet are less than 60 years old. Any idea what european capitalism was like in the first 60 years? Has one been able to develop while not being targeted by one the largest nations in the world by sanctions and embargos?

And yet, most people seem to think it's a sufficient counter argument to shout that communism doesn't work, and cite the USSR as an example, while ignoring all the capitalist nations that have collapsed in the meantime.

Don't claim communism doesn't work, because you don't know, because no one does. Until actual data exists, that is to say, a communist nation surviving more than a few generations and becoming sufficient without harrassment, the subject is academic, and has been well outlined by academia.

And yeah. I'm a socialist. And a communist. I think we should share our resources. CAPITALISM dosen't work! Can you seriously ignore the direction it's all going? No one shops their labor around anymore, they scramble for whatever they can get.

And...

Ron Paul?

C'mon, really?

I mean, it's enough of a stretch to hope that a socialist negro from chicago or a scallywag dyke from arkansas can make it, but an independent? By the time the election comes around, less than 20% of the population will have heard of him, much less be willing to vote for him.

Not that I think it's a good thing, two party politics is bullshit, but just the same, Ron Paul supporters are dreaming, even more so than Obama supporters.

I mean, we're going up against a white old southern war hero.

So really, why are we bothering to have this discussion? I bet they're already re embroidering everything with McKains initials.


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
    #8061067 - 02/23/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No one shops their labor around anymore, they scramble for whatever they can get.





Nonsense. If you have a marketable skill or good personal skills, you will be able to find a job that suits you.

Immediately after graduating from college last year I was lined up with 5 job offers in 3 different fields of work. All of them were substantially more than the average graduate makes yearly.

If you are worth a damn and have planned your crucial years (18-22) carefully, you will have no problem finding a job.

Also, it makes me happy to know that my pay if not being distributed to people who didn't work half as hard as I did over the past years.


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Offlinemarshalldylan1
Stranger


Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2,485
Last seen: 13 years, 1 day
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: Ziggen]
    #8061073 - 02/23/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why the fuck college kids?

I'm busy enough as it is.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: crumblebum]
    #8061079 - 02/23/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think capitalism works fabulously well. And the fact that Communism can't seem to last more than a couple of generations even is quite the indictment. They keep crumbling one after another. N. Korea clearly being the garden spot execption.

I shop my labor. Most people do. I can't stand Ron Paul. And I'm sorry you have such hate.


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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: All middle, highschool and college students sentenced to community service under Obama's rule [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8061225 - 02/23/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Can't we all just come together and dislike the youth of today? Hell, I disliked teenagers even when I was a teenager!

We, as a society, need to dislike some group. Hating foreigners leads to problems, and teens are whiny and think everyone hates them anyway, so they'd handle it fine!

My Platform: I'll concede to capitalism in general, if you guys concede to mild, symbolic persecution of teenagers.


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