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dblaney
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: Chemy]
#8057127 - 02/22/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Chemy said:
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MushroomTrip said: No, pride movements encourage delusion. It is very easy to jump from one extreme to another... from a shy oppressed to an aggressive oppressor. How can these movements be useful? Don't they function on the same idea as those who are racist? "Pride" implies a "better than you" state of mind. So does racism.
Thats what I meant to say in my European-American Pride Center remark.
If whites do it, it is immediately recognized as a "better than you" or "racist" agenda, but if others do it it's "warm and fuzzy"
Right! Whites in our culture form the majority and in many instances, the norm. It's already established. There is no need for pride movements. Any sort of white pride movement would be based on arrogance and being better-than-thou.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8057158 - 02/22/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Because you're not part of an oppressed group.
500,000 pot smokers jailed this year alone in the USA making it the most oppressed group.
Your 'hiding' and '80 years ago references are not relevant nor logical.
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You persistently refuse to consider...
Do you not understand what a personalism is or are you unaware of the forum rules?
How would it be, if instead of discussing the topic, we all threw out our meta-analysis of others and presented our uncontrolled emotional reactions as fact?
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I find it really annoying.
Your annoyment level is something for you to work on. It adds nothing to the debate.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: dblaney]
#8057219 - 02/22/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Arrogance implies a better-than-thou state of mind. Pride does not necessarily = arrogance, and in this case, I think they are separate. These pride movements are about rejecting the cultural values of shame and guilt that seem to come naturally with certain races and sexual orientations. They're about telling everyone that it's okay to be black or gay.
If they want to make the statement you are referring to, they wouldn't call themselves "proud gay" but "gay ok". 
Let's take a look at the first meaning of the word pride, quoted from the dictionary:
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pride /praɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, prid·ed, prid·ing. –noun 1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8057230 - 02/22/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I knew of a guy that liked sex with farm animals. As a member of a super-minority he should be extra proud.
SHEEP FUCKERS PRIDE!
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Apparently the number of people who fuck sheep is larger than you might think. 
Ahhh, nothing beats a romantic night, under the stars, having mad sex with
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I knew of a guy that liked sex with farm animals. As a member of a super-minority he should be extra proud.
SHEEP FUCKERS PRIDE!
Nice red herring.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8057263 - 02/22/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe so, but being proud of one's sexual proclivities, no matter what they are, makes no sense to me.
Who should have greater pride, missionary stylists or doggy stylists? Or perhaps the question is nonsensical.
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dblaney
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8057423 - 02/22/08 05:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Arrogance implies a better-than-thou state of mind. Pride does not necessarily = arrogance, and in this case, I think they are separate. These pride movements are about rejecting the cultural values of shame and guilt that seem to come naturally with certain races and sexual orientations. They're about telling everyone that it's okay to be black or gay.
If they want to make the statement you are referring to, they wouldn't call themselves "proud gay" but "gay ok". 
Let's take a look at the first meaning of the word pride, quoted from the dictionary:
Quote:
pride /praɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, prid·ed, prid·ing. –noun 1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
Okay, so...not knowing much about the gay pride movement, I decided to Wikipedia it. Here is what it says:
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"Gay pride or LGBT pride refers to a world wide movement and philosophy asserting that lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender individuals should be proud of their sexual orientation and gender identity. Gay pride advocates work for equal "rights and benefits" for LGBT people.[1][2][3] The movement has three main premises: that people should be proud of their sexual orientation and gender identity, that sexual diversity is a gift, and that sexual orientation and gender identity are inherent and cannot be intentionally altered.[4]"
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LGBT people should be proud of their sexual orientation and gender identity. I take this to mean proud of as opposed to ashamed of. One of the definitions of proud (according to the Merrian-Webster dictionary) is "c: having proper self-respect". It seems like that is the working definition here. And likewise, the definition of pride (according to M-W) is "b: a reasonable or justifiable self-respect" And according to dictionary.com, which is where it looks like you got that definition, "a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem."
The first definition of a word in a dictionary does not mean it is the ONLY definition.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Maybe so, but being proud of one's sexual proclivities, no matter what they are, makes no sense to me.
Who should have greater pride, missionary stylists or doggy stylists? Or perhaps the question is nonsensical.
Again, not the working definition of pride when talking about these movements.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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fivepointer
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: dblaney]
#8057634 - 02/22/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Where I work we have:
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month African American Month Hispanic Heritage Month Asian and Pacific Islander Month and more..
To me this is setting the tone for getting away with discrimination.
The official corporate goals are to hire/promote X% of X minorities. This sets the climate by recognizing "pride months". If you are basing hiring/promotion on anything other than skills/education, and instead on minority status then this is open discrimination against those outside the "minority".
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month is particularly offensive, it celebrates sexual deviancy as a lifestyle. Can necrophilia, bestiality, pedophilia pride month be far off?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: fivepointer]
#8057695 - 02/22/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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To me this is setting the tone for getting away with discrimination.
The official corporate goals are to hire/promote X% of X minorities. This sets the climate by recognizing "pride months". If you are basing hiring/promotion on anything other than skills/education, and instead on minority status then this is open discrimination against those outside the "minority".
Good.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: dblaney]
#8057727 - 02/22/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am sorry, but this is remains the basic implication of the word, and this triggers many psychological aspects. Proud is not the equivalent of normal (as in natural). Why should someone feel proud because they're gay? "I am proud" is the answer for "I am not ashamed", and as long as we answer to shame we're dealing with an imbalance.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: dblaney]
#8057967 - 02/22/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Okay, so...not knowing much about the gay pride movement, I decided to Wikipedia it. Here is what it says:
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"Gay pride or LGBT pride refers to a world wide movement and philosophy asserting that lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender individuals should be proud of their sexual orientation and gender identity. Gay pride advocates work for equal "rights and benefits" for LGBT people.[1][2][3] The movement has three main premises: that people should be proud of their sexual orientation and gender identity, that sexual diversity is a gift, and that sexual orientation and gender identity are inherent and cannot be intentionally altered.[4]"
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LGBT people should be proud of their sexual orientation and gender identity. I take this to mean proud of as opposed to ashamed of. One of the definitions of proud (according to the Merrian-Webster dictionary) is "c: having proper self-respect". It seems like that is the working definition here. And likewise, the definition of pride (according to M-W) is "b: a reasonable or justifiable self-respect" And according to dictionary.com, which is where it looks like you got that definition, "a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem."
The first definition of a word in a dictionary does not mean it is the ONLY definition.
Excellent post!
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Redstorm
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8058030 - 02/22/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm proud because of who I am and what I've done. I don't take pride in a group that I had no influence over.
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: Redstorm]
#8058054 - 02/22/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Shall I quote this again?
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One of the definitions of proud (according to the Merrian-Webster dictionary) is "c: having proper self-respect". It seems like that is the working definition here. And likewise, the definition of pride (according to M-W) is "b: a reasonable or justifiable self-respect" And according to dictionary.com, which is where it looks like you got that definition, "a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem."
We're working with the other definition of the term here. Taking pride (proper self-respect) in one's oppressed minority group identity is an important step in deconstructing and overcoming that very oppression. If it works, it eventually makes identity 'pride' unecessary. But it is an important step... for the queer scene, it certainly was necessary in the 80's and 90's and it probably still is necessary in places that are behind the times as far as getting over ignorant bigotry goes.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8058216 - 02/22/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have been to nude beaches all over the world with nary an issue. I once took a female date to a public beach (not nude) north of Santa Cruz. I later found later that the local gays had declared it their beach.
We were enjoying our picnic until she couldn't help but notice six naked guys behind us sucking and jerking each other off.
"Swami," she pleaded, "can we please leave before we get hit with flying sperm?" (Funny, but those were her exact words - minus the 'Swami'.)
Once, in a PUBLIC sauna, a gay guy grabbed my cock merely because I struck up an ordinary (non-sexual) conversation with him.
As a young boy fishing, an adult man lured me further into the woods (OK, I was naive) by telling me there was a better fishing spot.
I have at least a dozen more similar stories of totally inappropriate behaviour by these amazingly prideful types.
In some cases, bigotry play a part, but in these encounters, the homosexuals themselves were the ones doing their absolute best to earn a negative image.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (02/22/08 09:58 PM)
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dblaney
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Okay?
Those are some shitty situations, but I don't think they're very representative of any particular population.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Icelander
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: dblaney]
#8058450 - 02/22/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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dblaney said:
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I can agree that there may be a time in someones life when they need to take these steps on the learning path. I certainly did. But the sooner over it the better.
You speak as though moving towards social justice and equality is immature and as though there is something more mature and advanced than that (perhaps passivity?)?
You're right, I do see it as immature and I already stated why. Go back and read it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8058468 - 02/22/08 09:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You persistently refuse to consider the experience of people in positions significantly different from your own, and I find it really annoying. The whole "it's irrational to have views different from my own" thing is getting a little stale.
This is all his right as a debater on this forum. If you are annoyed it is your personal problem because you need him to act other than he does for you to feel good. This is immature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
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And I could go on to make a list of shitty things that heterosexual men and women have done. That list doesn't prove anything... and, again, is fallacious because you are implying guilt by association. You commit an awful lot of logical fallacies for a guy so committed to rational thinking.
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