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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Natural Order and Law of the Jungle
    #8055013 - 02/22/08 01:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Was watching 'Animal Planet' or a similar show wherein a baby hippo is filmed getting eaten by a crocodile. Let's assume that the camera crew could have 'saved' the hippo, but took a neutral observer stance of non-interference because 'that is the natural order of things'.

Hypothetical: The same cameraman is coming home late at night and sees a another man stalking a woman. He parks his car unnoticed and starts the film running, capturing a brutal rape (as opposed to the kind, gentle rape).


The cameraman:

A. Was merely observing the natural order of things and had no responsibility.

B. Was remiss in his duty as a citizen by not interfering with 'fate'.

C. Should have joined in the action.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8055037 - 02/22/08 01:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Is this a serious question?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8055068 - 02/22/08 02:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Is this a serious question?




What he said.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8055091 - 02/22/08 02:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Is this a serious question?




I take it you think C is the obvious choice.

What is unserious about it?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8055105 - 02/22/08 02:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

What is unserious about it?




There is no fact-value distinction.


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8055619 - 02/22/08 09:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i notice when you draw comparisons its always attempt to project a certain conclusion.


just look at the wording of the choices provided.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: Archemetis]
    #8055647 - 02/22/08 09:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:werd:


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8055928 - 02/22/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Of course it's a serious question, and touches on multiple issues.

A famous incident, the case of Kitty Guilespi <SP?>, a lesbian who was stabbed to death in the courtyard of her apartment building. Dozens of people saw it happen, no one called the police. Perfectly normal people. Begs the question, what the fuck?

Also, there's the akward element wherein we've placed ourselves above our at least outside of nature, which leaves us without a clear relationship to it, and thus without a clear relationship to one another.

Are we responsible for one another?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8056030 - 02/22/08 11:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Was watching 'Animal Planet' or a similar show wherein a baby hippo is filmed getting eaten by a crocodile. Let's assume that the camera crew could have 'saved' the hippo, but took a neutral observer stance of non-interference because 'that is the natural order of things'.

Hypothetical: The same cameraman is coming home late at night and sees a another man stalking a woman. He parks his car unnoticed and starts the film running, capturing a brutal rape (as opposed to the kind, gentle rape).


The cameraman:

A. Was merely observing the natural order of things and had no responsibility.

B. Was remiss in his duty as a citizen by not interfering with 'fate'.

C. Should have joined in the action.




B of course. And you can't really interfere with fate. It just ain't possible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (02/22/08 11:22 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: Icelander]
    #8056825 - 02/22/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Is 'B' the ethical choice merely because of proximity?

A human is much closer to a hippo genetically than a crocodile - and closer still to an unrelated woman. How much proximity or similarity is necessary before it is OK to ignore?

The observer in this case was at most a few hundred feet away, so was in geographical proximity. Does responsibility diminish geometrically like gravity or light dispersal based upon the square of the distance?

What if the cameraman merely suspected something bad was going to happen and just drove on by?


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Invisiblebradmassive
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8056857 - 02/22/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its secret option D.

'Choose to intervene or not based on personal ethics.'


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: bradmassive]
    #8056877 - 02/22/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:trophy:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8057027 - 02/22/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If the attacker is going to consume his victim for food...I go with A.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8057043 - 02/22/08 03:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You mean if it was an oral sex rape? :blush: :crazy: :confused:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8057049 - 02/22/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Not necessarily. I meant draw, quarter and consume after roasting over a fire...or maybe fried in coconut oil with some tofu on the side, maybe some pie for dessert.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblebradmassive
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8057204 - 02/22/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'd watch the show and join for the pie! :evil:


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: bradmassive]
    #8057215 - 02/22/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The pie is definitely worth it...oh yeah!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8058466 - 02/22/08 09:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

All of the above. If it's the natural order, to me, it means that it will happen naturally. Therefore, whether or not the guy interferes, watches, or joins in is irrelevant because it's all natural.


Edited by Boots (02/22/08 09:27 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058511 - 02/22/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Is 'B' the ethical choice merely because of proximity?

A human is much closer to a hippo genetically than a crocodile - and closer still to an unrelated woman. How much proximity or similarity is necessary before it is OK to ignore?

The observer in this case was at most a few hundred feet away, so was in geographical proximity. Does responsibility diminish geometrically like gravity or light dispersal based upon the square of the distance?

What if the cameraman merely suspected something bad was going to happen and just drove on by?




I think b is the choice because it is part of our nature to care for each other.

But of course that is only a small part of our nature. So... anything goes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8060366 - 02/23/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Humans are killing humans and other species.
Other species mostly kill other species, not themselves.

There will be more resonance in humans, if another will beat one's own dog to death.

To not care about one's own species makes humans worthy as thrash.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8060385 - 02/23/08 01:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Other species mostly kill other species, not themselves




Mostly? Other species kill each other all the time so what is your point?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8060395 - 02/23/08 01:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Other species mostly kill other species, not themselves




Mostly? Other species kill each other all the time so what is your point?



That other species mostly don't kill their own species what makes your analogy invalid.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #8060411 - 02/23/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Male lions kill other male lions and their cubs. Ants wage war on other ants. Corcodiles will eat their own young. Chimps will kill chimps form other tribes. And and on it goes.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Natural Order and Law of the Jungle [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8061157 - 02/23/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I see. You propose this as a major trend.
I just would want this assumption approved by some statistical reviews about as much species as possible.
But you see your flaw from inter- to intraspecific 'murders' ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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