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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineBoots
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8058438 - 02/22/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Consciousness is the state we are in when we are conscious; conscious means having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts; therefore, consciousness, to me, is a state of being aware of the awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Boots]
    #8058672 - 02/22/08 10:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness is the state we are in when we are conscious




Wait a minute. Not so fast.

*Shmoopy grabs pen and paper*

I gotta write down this gem.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058717 - 02/22/08 10:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Write down awareness too. They both go together.

:yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8060684 - 02/23/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A recent read of mine. It attempts to do what C.G. Jung and Wolfgand Pauli started to collaborate on - the unified theory of space-time and consciousness. Consciousness is simultaneously both and analogies can be made with the particle-wave (wavicle) concept of electrons, in which the wave function collapses into individual particles when observed! Observation effects the nature of space-time, whch is to say self-conscious awareness effects the nature of space-time because conscious awareness and space-time are not separate but operate in a paradoxical manner. It is the paradoxical that drives you crazy. The author uses M.C. Escher pics to illustrate some of the paradox.

The bottom line of the book is that consciousness is the eternal substratum of Reality and space-time (creation) is an emergent phenomenon of consciousness. This is tantamount to saying in religious language (the author is Hindu) either Hindu or Christian, Jewish or Islamic, that 'God' [Consciousness, or its archaic term, 'Spirit'] gives rise to space-time, not at one point in history (Big Bang), but continuously. Another analogy is the phenomenon of photons appearing in the vacuum of space, not emanating from a light source. For us monkeys, like the fictional two-dimensional beings in the book Flatland, the insertion of a higher dimensional being into a lower dimensional world looks to supernatural lower dimensional beings.

Jesus allegedly appeared to his apostles behind shuttered doors and windows (the 'upper room'). A human 3-dimensional finger inserted into the plane of Flatland appeared to 2-dimensional beings as a point of light that broadened into a wide band of light. It seemes to appear out of thin air when it was really entering 2-dimensions from a third dimension which was incomprehensible to beings who lived in a plane. 'Up' and 'down' didn't exist physically, but were metaphysical suppositions. This analogy is not in the book, you'd have to read Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Liquid_Dimension]
    #8060774 - 02/23/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Liquid_Dimension said:
Is it our inner thoughts? feelings,personalities...the hidden stuff of our private selfs? or simply self awareness? :shrug:




Ancient Indian thought refers to consciousness as 'The Eye which sees but which is never seen.' It is the substratum of Ultimate Reality and can not be defined inasmuch as it is colorless and qualityless. It cannot be qualified as 'a thing' among other things because it is ontologically prior to all individual things. It exists eternally and it is the source of all subsequent form.

Human self-conscious awareness mistakenly identifies itself in terms of the individual human being who is pondering this mystery. The sages, yogis, rishis, siddhas and Buddha himself identified the mistaken identification of our form (mind-body) with Consciousness as due to the specialized mental phenomenon of ego - jivatman or ahamkara in Sanskrit - the 'I'- sense. If one could transcend this 'I' sufficiently, one would Realize that who and what we are is this timeless and spaceless Consciousness which Buddhism calls the Clear Light of the Void.

I prefer Vajrayana Buddhist descriptions because its psychology is developed well beyond any of the theistic faiths which seem to have not articulated this interface of physics, metaphysics and metapsychology but relegate such inquiries as presumption and an intrusion into God's mysteries. Theistic faiths seem to prefer remaining in unconsciousness by assuming untested affirmations of faith called dogma. If Reality is being discussed, it must include the human experience, not fabricate fictional answers to important questions such as yours.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/24/08 03:30 PM)


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OfflineMokshaIs
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8066144 - 02/24/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

couldn't we say that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of Reality? That it exists outside the matrix of mind, outside the domain of possible human experience? Perhaps in order to take form, something must exhibit a degree of consciousness. Consciousness would exist without the brain, no? It doesn't seem that consciousness, or awareness, is the product of something of the conceptual world. If no humans inhabited the earth, no mammals, no organisms with brains, is awareness still? is consciousness still? is being itself synonomous with consciousness? or perhaps synonomous with aspects of consciousness? perhaps consciousness itself is major bedrock of reality, something so vast and deep that it is beyond quantifiable deduction. consciousness just is as IS. Therefore, silence is dandy, for it allows one to see is as IS, not through the filter of mindforms, which arise within the eternal field of consciousness.


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in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways


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OfflineMokshaIs
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8066254 - 02/24/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)






Ancient Indian thought refers to consciousness as 'The Eye which sees but which is never seen.' It is the substratum of Ultimate Reality and can not be defined inasmuch as it is colorless and qualityless. It cannot be qualified as 'a thing' among other things because it is ontologically prior to all individual things. It exists eternally and it is the source of all subsequent form.

The sages, yogis, rishis, siddhas and Buddha himself identified the mistaken identification of our form (mind-body) with Consciousness as due to the specialized mental phenomenon of ego - jivatman or ahamkara in Sanskrit - the 'I'- sense. If one could transcend this 'I' sufficiently, one would Realize that who and what we are is this timeless and spaceless Consciousness which Buddhism calls the Clear Light of the Void.

\


:window:            :hole:

perhaps i posted three pages too soon


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: MokshaIs]
    #8066388 - 02/24/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MokshaIs said:
couldn't we say that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of Reality? That it exists outside the matrix of mind, outside the domain of possible human experience? Perhaps in order to take form, something must exhibit a degree of consciousness.




Sorry, you're talking to the wrong guy.  That sounds like mystical mumbo-jumbo to me. :shrug:


Quote:

MokshaIs said:
Consciousness would exist without the brain, no?



No, not as far as I'm aware.  YMMV.


Quote:

MokshaIs said:
It doesn't seem that consciousness, or awareness, is the product of something of the conceptual world. If no humans inhabited the earth, no mammals, no organisms with brains, is awareness still? is consciousness still? is being itself synonomous with consciousness? or perhaps synonomous with aspects of consciousness?




Interesting thoughts, but it seems completely pie-in-the-sky.

On what do you base the idea that consciousness exists external to a consious being?  I've never seen any indication that consciousness is universal to life, much less that it's universal among inanimate forms.


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Offlineharoldmeeks
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8066399 - 02/24/08 09:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

this questions is seriously offlimits


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8067013 - 02/24/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Even if consciousness as we know it is an illusion, what is the observer of the illusion?

Illusions are literally nothing without an observer.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8067122 - 02/25/08 12:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I never bought the whole idea that the entire world could be an illusion simply because we don't know that it isn't (I think that's what you're getting at). And math is the reason.

Math is a set of theorems and rules and tricks that can be shown to be true, both by application and by mathematical proof. It's pretty hard to deny that math is fundamentally sound (thus has an objective basis regardless of our subjective experience of it).

But people can teach you new tricks in math. There are some brilliant theorems that I could never in a million years work out on my own. If all life is just an experiential illusion created by my brain, who came up with Euler's theorem? (ei*pi+1=0) That shit is brilliant and undeniable. Euler's theorem is my proof of objective reality.


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OfflineMokshaIs
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8067361 - 02/25/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Entropymancer said:
Quote:

MokshaIs said:
couldn't we say that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of Reality? That it exists outside the matrix of mind, outside the domain of possible human experience? Perhaps in order to take form, something must exhibit a degree of consciousness.




Sorry, you're talking to the wrong guy.  That sounds like mystical mumbo-jumbo to me. :shrug:


Quote:

MokshaIs said:
Consciousness would exist without the brain, no?



No, not as far as I'm aware.  YMMV.


Quote:

MokshaIs said:
It doesn't seem that consciousness, or awareness, is the product of something of the conceptual world. If no humans inhabited the earth, no mammals, no organisms with brains, is awareness still? is consciousness still? is being itself synonomous with consciousness? or perhaps synonomous with aspects of consciousness?




Interesting thoughts, but it seems completely pie-in-the-sky.

On what do you base the idea that consciousness exists external to a consious being?  I've never seen any indication that consciousness is universal to life, much less that it's universal among inanimate forms.




It's all mumbo jumbo... the confusion arises when we say consciousness arises from materiality, ie consciousness is a product of the brain. it is in fact the other way around. "consciousness creates the material universe". It's as if consciousness is the infinite potentiality and the materiality is one of the infinite manifested, experienced, observed, etc... consciousness isn't the product of anything, instead, everything is a product of certain states/levels of consciousness. consciousness just is. objectivity is encompassed by subjectivity, therefore the quantifiable, scientific perspective is silly willy due to the inherent influence and alteration of data/findings by the observers' state of consciousness. The brain or mind don't produce consciousness, the brain and mind and geese and even that arise within the field of consciousness. its a field of infinite potentiality, so whatever is is just a one of the infinite, a little bit of eternity. no little bit of eternity is responsible for producing the eternity, for producing consciousness. It seems to me that consciousness is a word that is synonomous for terms such as God, essence of existence, Self, Being, etc. ..Do you think trees are conscious? blades of grass? a rock? air? perhaps the fact that these things are taking part in "your" consciosness, they too must exhibit a degree of consciousness. consciousness doesn't belong to any one thing i think. No one thing has it and another doesn't. were all, its all, all is within The Field of the One Consciousness. Every thing is just exhibiting a different level, a different state contained within the infinite potentiality of the One Consciousness.:mushroom2:


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: MokshaIs]
    #8067460 - 02/25/08 02:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

it is in fact the other way around. "consciousness creates the material universe".




Ya gotta love stuff that people make up with nary a drop of evidence and declare it as fact. :rolleyes:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8067567 - 02/25/08 03:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its just as likely and as evidenced that consciousness creates the universe as it is that the universe creates consciousness. That is to say, its a mystery, which of course means it cannot be declared as fact, but, as needs to be said, its a complete mystery.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8067591 - 02/25/08 04:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Or you could say the universe is made out of pixie dust and chocolate sprinkles.

Gee, fantasy is fun! :fairy:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8067593 - 02/25/08 04:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A mystery is a mystery.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8067598 - 02/25/08 04:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for increasing my knowledge base.

:japsmile:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8067623 - 02/25/08 05:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And what is your knowledge base on the nature of consciousness? Anything objective?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8067659 - 02/25/08 05:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Saying something is equivalent to itself tells us what that we didn't already know?

Consciousness is an emergent property of certain complex, living, neuronal structures. Beyond that, everything is pure speculation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What is Consciousness? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8067700 - 02/25/08 06:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think most of us think that consciousness pertains to awareness, and without trying to define awareness in terms of itself or consciousness - creating a circular definition, can anyone see what pattern in nature is awareness itself?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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