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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide
    #8049895 - 02/21/08 01:01 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The first is often considered a natural part of evolution; the second - evidence of pure evil.

If this is your view, please explain the difference without using emotionalism.


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8049929 - 02/21/08 01:08 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

genocide takes out everything, not only the weak but the strong too. it reduces the strong to weak and then destroys them just the same.

survival of the fittest allows the strong to overcome the weak, and attempt to overcome even the strong. always adapting into something better.



is this what you're asking sort of?
thats how i see it.. at least


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8050048 - 02/21/08 01:39 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The term survival of the fittest was not coined by Darwin.

Also, there is a difference between the evolution of species and culture. Social Darwinism is a load of crap.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8050137 - 02/21/08 01:58 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Survival of the fittest?

In what country? Since when does a bullet, gas or bomb have muscle?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8050140 - 02/21/08 01:58 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Also, there is a difference between the evolution of species and culture. Social Darwinism is a load of crap.




--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: psyka]
    #8050163 - 02/21/08 02:04 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:In what country? Since when does a bullet, gas or bomb have muscle?


Having muscle is not what survival of the fittest means. Survival of the fittest means most likely to have offspring who can have offspring and so on. Building a bomb that denies somebody with muscle offspring, there by allowing more resources for your offspring is survival of the fittest. Nature does not care how a species, or group withing a species achieves fitness for procreation. Muscle rarely has anything to do with it.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8050175 - 02/21/08 02:08 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said: Social Darwinism is a load of crap.


A load of crap because you dont like it? Or a load of crap because it doesnt happen? It does happen. Cultures have been wiped out. They were wiped out because, for some reason or another, they could not produce offspring at a rate that other cultures could. Maybe they were wiped out because of genocide, or maybe from lack of genetic diversity/disease. Or maybe, like the spartans, they committed mass infanticide and destroyed their own culture. Thats certainly not a very fit way of life, that is, its not a way to perpetuate your culture.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8050181 - 02/21/08 02:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The term survival of the fittest was not coined by Darwin.



Thank you for that non-relevant tidbit.

Quote:

Also, there is a difference between the evolution of species and culture. Social Darwinism is a load of crap.



Is that your well-thought critique?


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8050689 - 02/21/08 09:26 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Survival of the fittest, if correct, is just the way it happens. Strong overcomes the weak in an automated sort of way. Genocide requires individual or group intent; it is also created out of an opinion (such as one race being lesser than another). Is there a difference between a stronger animal and a stronger country? Both are systems of small units and both have functions. A tiger kills in order to survive however - it is a necessity. One culture moving to dissipate another, is it necessary? If the intention is borne out of a need for more land and resources then could it be described as very real cultural hunger; actual survival. If the intention is created out of an ideological difference or opinion, and is nothing more than an egotistic attempt to push your own on another.. is that the same? Perhaps it could be described as the 'hunger of the inflated sense of self', but obviously, from a third person perspective, this seems superfluous.

I don't really have a definitive opinion yet, good topic.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: WScott]
    #8050728 - 02/21/08 09:48 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If the intention is created out of an ideological difference or opinion, and is nothing more than an egotistic attempt to push your own on another.. is that the same? Perhaps it could be described as the 'hunger of the inflated sense of self', but obviously, from a third person perspective, this seems superfluous.

I don't really have a definitive opinion yet, good topic.




Egoistic reasons? All of them are.
Why should need for food or shelter be ok and the ideological need for supremacy should not? It is still survival of the fittest.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

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OfflineWScott
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8050921 - 02/21/08 10:52 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Egoistic reasons? All of them are.
Why should need for food or shelter be ok and the ideological need for supremacy should not? It is still survival of the fittest.




That is what I am hung up on. Both are parts of nature. Is one simply a macrocosm of the other and thus, should not be interpreted any differently when generalized? A genocidal culture; it makes me think whether or not cancer is natural. Of course it is, otherwise it wouldn't exist. I also don't believe that cancer spontaneously develops. Lifestyle, genetics and environment all play a part in whether you will develop cancer. Similar to a genocidal leader's life experiences will potentially turn into his outlook and intentions towards different peoples. It begs an answer to whether morality is just an external philosophical idealism or whether right and wrong is truly inherent in everyone.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8051339 - 02/21/08 12:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
The first is often considered a natural part of evolution; the second - evidence of pure evil.





Its not my view, but I thought to point out that there is no evidence that genocide benefits the evolution of this species; in fact, it is quite the contrary, as genetic diversity is an evolutionary advantage for our species as a whole. Those who commit genocide threaten the well-being and sustainability of the human species itself.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8051383 - 02/21/08 12:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

With survival of the fittest people have more of a chance to make choices that will move them up in the food chain. With genocide, that choice is pretty much eliminated.


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: deranger]
    #8051491 - 02/21/08 01:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
With survival of the fittest people have more of a chance to make choices that will move them up in the food chain. With genocide, that choice is pretty much eliminated.




If a tiger has chosen an antelope for a meal, how much choice does the antelope have? It can choose to run or fight. Very similar to the options that are presented to a defending culture - especially if diplomacy has failed.


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: WScott]
    #8051527 - 02/21/08 01:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
With survival of the fittest people have more of a chance to make choices that will move them up in the food chain. With genocide, that choice is pretty much eliminated.




If a tiger has chosen an antelope for a meal, how much choice does the antelope have? It can choose to run or fight. Very similar to the options that are presented to a defending culture - especially if diplomacy has failed.




but the tiger didn't decide to eliminate every antelope for no reason with gas bombs


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: igwna]
    #8051550 - 02/21/08 01:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
With survival of the fittest people have more of a chance to make choices that will move them up in the food chain. With genocide, that choice is pretty much eliminated.




If a tiger has chosen an antelope for a meal, how much choice does the antelope have? It can choose to run or fight. Very similar to the options that are presented to a defending culture - especially if diplomacy has failed.




but the tiger didn't decide to eliminate every antelope for no reason with gas bombs




If a tiger had the mental faculties to do such a thing (I suspect it wouldn't use gas as that would taint the meat), would it? Perhaps it would devise a plan instead to eliminate all the competitors so that there would be more antelope for itself.


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Edited by WScott (02/21/08 01:55 PM)


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: WScott]
    #8051571 - 02/21/08 01:58 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
With survival of the fittest people have more of a chance to make choices that will move them up in the food chain. With genocide, that choice is pretty much eliminated.




If a tiger has chosen an antelope for a meal, how much choice does the antelope have? It can choose to run or fight. Very similar to the options that are presented to a defending culture - especially if diplomacy has failed.




but the tiger didn't decide to eliminate every antelope for no reason with gas bombs




If a tiger had the mental faculties to do such a thing (I suspect it wouldn't use gas as that would taint the meat), would it? Perhaps it would devise a plan instead to eliminate all the competitors so that there would be more antelope for itself.




Even so, the Tiger wouldn't eliminate the antelop with genocide. It seems to me that the Tiger is more intelligent than to kill its primary food source off.

and how much competition does the Tiger really have?


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OfflineLion
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8051584 - 02/21/08 02:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

As humans we have the power to create ethical guidelines for cooperation and co-creation. I see genocide as an evil because humans have shown many times that they have the power to transcend pure survivalist instincts.


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: igwna]
    #8051601 - 02/21/08 02:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

skcorrelyt said:Even so, the Tiger wouldn't eliminate the antelop with genocide. It seems to me that the Tiger is more intelligent than to kill its primary food source off.

and how much competition does the Tiger really have?




Now that all the lions and hyenas are dead due to gas chamber.. not much.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8051673 - 02/21/08 02:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Darwin's theory of evolution and the concept of "survival of the fittest" are applied to a species as a whole. There's only one human species currently existing, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, and all cultures are a part of it.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8051694 - 02/21/08 02:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Human culture has transcended natural selection as understood by Darwin. Genocide is not even on the same playing field as "survival of the fittest." It is an abuse of power, something only humans are capable of.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: WScott]
    #8051703 - 02/21/08 02:37 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

So a group bombs the shit of another and whipes them out with scary technology.

That group is more fit and nature grants them the prize?

How bout the "anything can happen" quantum mechanical framework that would probably points towards the idea that whatever happened in this scenario is not a reflection of any beings abilities or fitness, but rather just a twisted non-sensicle random event that reflects the randomness of the universe?

I don't think genocide and darwanistic ideologies should be intertwined because in the end it would probably attempt justify a misguided deed.

I don't give a fuck what anybody says. We will always be one and if we make ourselves believe otherwise, then we are selling ourselves fuckin short and we will continue walking in circles in this bullshit perpetual black vs. white machine that leads us nowhere.

It is yet another illusion. We have made it past the point of survival of the fittest. It is now survival of the educated. And this is not something we are born with, it is fed to us, so why not spread the beef motherfuckers?


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8051712 - 02/21/08 02:39 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Human culture has transcended natural selection as understood by Darwin. Genocide is not even on the same playing field as "survival of the fittest." It is an abuse of power, something only humans are capable of.




:sun:


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8053471 - 02/21/08 09:32 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Survival of the Fittest is phrase coined by Herbert Spencer and has nothing to do with the current theory of biological evolution.

Besides, you are committing the naturalistic fallacy by conflating a scientific theory with ethics.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8053488 - 02/21/08 09:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Human culture has transcended natural selection as understood by Darwin.




How?


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8053692 - 02/21/08 10:09 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

'We will always be one'

We so aren't at the same time.
You've fought it out in there??
Its going on out there.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8055534 - 02/22/08 10:47 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What connects these with "vs."?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8056898 - 02/22/08 05:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

People make many false distinction like 'drugs and alcohol'.

When one chimp tribe attacks and slaughters another chimp tribe, some call that natural.

When one human tribe attacks and slaughters another human tribe, some call that immoral and unnatural.


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8058405 - 02/22/08 11:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Well, emotion aside, I'd say that genocide such as the Holocaust could be considered weeding out the weak.


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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: Boots]
    #8058425 - 02/22/08 11:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

NiamhNyx gonna flame yo ass for that one.:lol:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: Icelander]
    #8058453 - 02/22/08 11:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You sure hope so, so you can do another spanking. :spank:


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058928 - 02/23/08 02:22 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:When one chimp tribe attacks and slaughters another chimp tribe, some call that natural.

When one human tribe attacks and slaughters another human tribe, some call that immoral and unnatural.



The difference between natural and unnatural exists only in our minds.

:japsmile:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8058940 - 02/23/08 02:26 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
People make many false distinction like 'drugs and alcohol'.

When one chimp tribe attacks and slaughters another chimp tribe, some call that natural.

When one human tribe attacks and slaughters another human tribe, some call that immoral and unnatural.




Natural does not imply moral.
:nonono:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Survival of the Fittest vs. Genocide [Re: DieCommie]
    #8058944 - 02/23/08 02:28 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Of course, but some like to pretend we are not animals and that something called 'morals' exists independent of culture.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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