Home | Community | Message Board

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Muscaria   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives?
    #8046692 - 02/20/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So I was reading a few trip reports on Ketamine, and I was intrigued by the general consensus that ego death is apparently possible through dissociatives. My question is, is this the same ego death that is experienced through psychedelics (LSD, shrooms, etc...), and if so, could this mean that these dissociatives have some form of spiritual value if they can bring the average user to an enlightenment of sorts?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJackenobi
Hermes
Male


Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8046907 - 02/20/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

im not saying ive done ketamine but it seems kind of patent to me that you couldn't call an ego death on disassociative substance a product of enlightenment...

though you could find the experience enlightening on some level

but then its not something you could have earnt... so im speculating it would just be getting kinda wasted and high with no taught value like psychadelic revelation... because of no real lesson


--------------------
read books


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8046928 - 02/20/08 11:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

hmm i would say if your looking for a spiritual value one can always be found in psychedelics or dissociative. the whole experience is different but finding what you were looking to find is generally the same. Dissociative kinda are a statement of why you need to associated to other people and psychedelics which i use really loosely are a reminder of why one shouldnt be so self involved in thought even when specially while trying to associate but still be dissociated. in a sense LSD can be very dissociating, as the user is often pron to wanting to be outside of outside influences other then the ones of their mind. While lets say DXM can be like wow the world and interaction with people but damn laying on the floor and sinking into this world i created with my mind with out even having to think about it is amazing. The difference i guess im saying is that one has less thinking about think and the other is just straight thinking and seeing rather then thinking about it. or something of this such, of course this doesnt apply to all cases but something of a similar nature occurs


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineVisionary Tools
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8046941 - 02/20/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

From my breakthrough experiences on Salvia, yeah, ego death is real, and grabs you by the (far away) balls.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMorphMan
δSλ
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 1,362
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8047020 - 02/20/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A "spiritual" experience can occur in any state of mind. It seems obvious to me that dissociatives could produce an experience that one could interpret as "spiritual." It's all in the eye of the beholder.

"Ego death" is just that, the death of the ego. There can be no difference between "ego death" experienced on psychedelics and "ego death" experienced on dissociatives. If there were a difference, than one of these experiences is not "ego death" by definition. It either is, or isn't.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: MorphMan]
    #8047283 - 02/20/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

tho i think the true ego death is infact impossible unless your laying the floor no moving or functioning in any way.
I find the ego to be a very important thing and the essence of life, and people that seek ego death only seek to better understand them self rather then achieving what i just said, its just all abou the illusion


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMorphMan
δSλ
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 1,362
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8047342 - 02/20/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Valid words. :blazed:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8047825 - 02/20/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

@Visionary Tools: But isn't Salvia considered more akin to a psychedelic than the typical DXM-like dissociative? It's true it doesn't affect the traditional psychedelic 5-HT2A serotonin receptor, but I'd attribute its dissociative effects to more of the speed at which the compound takes effect than any NMDA receptor antagonism that takes place under traditional dissociatives.

@MorphMan: I agree--if ego death were taking place with both substances, then yes, by definition, they are both ego death. My question was whether or not ego death in fact EXISTS with substances like DXM and Ketamine, vs. a state more akin to unfettered lucid dreaming that's triggered when the mind disconnects from the body.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Edited by deCypher (02/20/08 04:01 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineultimo101
Mushroomhead

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 676
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8047902 - 02/20/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ego Death: Psychedelics PLUS Dissociatives?

FIXED
:laugh:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8048041 - 02/20/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

god damn cypher that avatar reminds me of salvia almost in a bad way haha.

anyways, whether or not a substance causes ego death is irrelevant when considering its spiritual value. what objects, substances, deities, books, etc etc people place a spiritual value on is entirely dependent upon the individual. achieving ego death on a dissociative proves nothing more than you can get really really really really...really fuckin' high on ketamine.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #8048189 - 02/20/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So psychedelics & dissociatives both can cause ego death, it seems.  The next logical extension: is ego death possible on deliriants?  It seems it would be much harder to accomplish as you are basically dreaming while awake with little to no lucidity or control over the experience, but if one were a trained lucid dreamer, I would postulate the experience might be possible.

And hehe thanks--tonight I'm actually planning to see if I can breakthrough on Sally D.  Past experiences have either shot me up to an amnesiac state or simply given a high feeling, but tonight I figure I'll give the toke 20 minutes before method to try and use reverse tolerance to my advantage. :laugh:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Edited by deCypher (02/20/08 04:52 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFadedSoulJah
Stranger

Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 20
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8048284 - 02/20/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This thread intrigued me greatly....I'm mostly an observer here, not much to say....
I do however have ALOT of experience with Ketamine, and there was a time that I dosed 2 hits of Blotter, then chased it with a HUGE rail of K....
I can't begin to get into details, but the world I was in was scarry......The hallucinations from acid, melded with the dissasosiotive Ketamine, and I ended up thinking that I was dead but there was a cruicifix on my wall and I began thinking that I was a decendant of the roman soldier that finally nailed Christ to the cross, and I was so sorry...........It was terrible guilt and I couldn't controll it.....My body was fucking shot and I spasmed on my bead...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: FadedSoulJah]
    #8048312 - 02/20/08 05:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

amainta is a good example of a deliriant that is can cause ego death but it is also dissociative and psychedelic, tho i still rest on so is datura when combined with aya and the rest of the brew.

when i relived 2 years of my life in a dream state i was delerious yet aware. which in turn im saying physically and my body in this world wasnt delierous from them. but in the other world i sure as hell was probally one of the strongest trips on them and it was from one of the lightest doses, but deffinatly was in a magic blend of spices all in low doses.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (02/20/08 05:25 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8048354 - 02/20/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Just ordered some amanitas from iamshaman.com, actually. I read somewhere that this company pre-prepares the 'shrooms so that cooking is not necessary... is this true?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineg00ru
lit pants tit licker
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8048359 - 02/20/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My experience with amanitas was terrifying and not fun at all.

Dissociatives ftl in my opinion.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineVisionary Tools
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: g00ru]
    #8048419 - 02/20/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
@Visionary Tools: But isn't Salvia considered more akin to a psychedelic than the typical DXM-like dissociative? It's true it doesn't affect the traditional psychedelic 5-HT2A serotonin receptor, but I'd attribute its dissociative effects to more of the speed at which the compound takes effect than any NMDA receptor antagonism that takes place under traditional dissociatives.





From my 350mg experience with DXM, (I'm one of those people that like it, did a lot over the summer, and wouldn't mind doing it again) I felt I lost my mind, and the urge to dance was me, and it felt good.

Salvia is magicial, it's taken me to places I could never be. I hope that makes sense, but the point is, the feeling is distinctly different.

I've even woken up during a dream, my limbs felt like lead, then slipped back intto a more comfortable fantasy land. That was from drinking a large amount of tincture, a stupid amount, but whatever came through, was powerful enough to affect my dreams in such a unique way.

Down side to that is, I have mad salvia tolerance.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8048430 - 02/20/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes you can eat theirs they way they are but i still stand by nature gives me mine just right so i can use them as medicine for the people that live in that area.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8048940 - 02/20/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
So I was reading a few trip reports on Ketamine, and I was intrigued by the general consensus that ego death is apparently possible through dissociatives. My question is, is this the same ego death that is experienced through psychedelics (LSD, shrooms, etc...), and if so, could this mean that these dissociatives have some form of spiritual value if they can bring the average user to an enlightenment of sorts?




I have done very high doses of ketamine which have resulted in ego dissolution, but it was very different than ego death on acid or mushrooms. Ego death on acid is a shattering experience that takes me into nothing, but on ketamine it is more of a pleasant transcendence that rather takes me into fullness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8049550 - 02/20/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

wow i could say the oppisite thing but at the same time also the same thing. i have been on both sides. and a in between one


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
    #8049894 - 02/20/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Any qualitative differences, or were they both merely facets of the same true enlightenment?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8049924 - 02/20/08 11:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Any qualitative differences, or were they both merely facets of the same true enlightenment?




Neither of them were of what I consider to be "true" enlightenment, but ego death on acid has turned out to have provided the most self-knowledge.

I've heard of people experiencing complete reality meltdowns on ketamine, but I have never encountered it. I must get the good stuff.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeraph in Blue
Stranger

Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 198
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8049988 - 02/20/08 11:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I've experienced ego death on Ketamine, and it's not pleasant like it is with psychedelics for me. For me, when ego death occurs with psychedelics, it's more of a fullfilling experience where I am just experience the beauty of consciousness, naked existence and I just feel so far from all of my urges or contextual life. With Ketamine it's just weird and confusing to the point where I wouldn't want to do it again.

I've had an overwhelming ego death experience while mixing rolls once. There was definitely a large dose of MDMA, some MDA, and some Ketamine. I took a few hits off of a bong and it sent me spiraling downward into this complete and intensely negative ego death where I felt reality and consciousness as a huge farce and that everyone was one big cosmic joke, and I was the butt of it. It was "ego death" but not in the classic sense, more of just a feeling of a different and very confusing astral plane.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeraph in Blue
Stranger

Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 198
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8049997 - 02/20/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
Any qualitative differences, or were they both merely facets of the same true enlightenment?




Neither of them were of what I consider to be "true" enlightenment, but ego death on acid has turned out to have provided the most self-knowledge.

I've heard of people experiencing complete reality meltdowns on ketamine, but I have never encountered it. I must get the good stuff.




I am one of those first-hand examples of that complete reality loss, and let me tell you, it sucks, and lasts for waaaaay too long.

See my above post for details.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Seraph in Blue]
    #8050083 - 02/20/08 11:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It may have been similar to my experience on acid, it was horrifying and felt like it lasted for years. But was worth it in every way, to get a glimpse of that timeless state of nothingness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8050102 - 02/20/08 11:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

IMO true ego death should be absolutely shattering, the ego is what gives us that sense of time, and to experience true ego death would be to experience utter timelessness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8050121 - 02/20/08 11:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Not true enlightenment? I would have to disagree with you there. In my opinion (granted that very few of us have actually spent the majority of our life training in meditation to see what "true enlightenment" is like from the first-hand experience), I would say that psychedelics and meditation take you to the same place, but just as psychedelics ramp you up to a state of cosmic awareness within the space of hours, you are also ramped down from that state within the space of hours.

I would postulate that it's only via years of meditation that you can truly stay enlightened or close to it for a long while after the experience. But the actual enlightenment regardless of the methods used to obtain it appear to be more or less the same thing (judging by sources such as Ram Dass and the like, for what that's worth).

If not, what would you consider "true" enlightenment?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblederanger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8050196 - 02/21/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well it is my belief that there are levels to which one can experience enlightenment. I have been meditating almost daily for 6 years, and it definitely has brought enlightening experiences. But I will post an excerpt from a guy who claims to have been through "true" enlightenment. He started meditating when he was around 7 years old and spent most of his early years in solitude, which definitely contributed to his awakening. At around age 20 he went through a year long experience of naturally induced ego death, which resulted in permanent consciousness expansion. -


"I went to sleep near about eight. It was not like sleep. Now I can understand what Patanjali means when he says that sleep and samadhi are similar. Only with one difference -- that in samadhi you are fully awake and asleep also. Asleep and awake together, the whole body relaxed, every cell of the body totally relaxed, all functioning relaxed, and yet a light of awareness burns within you... clear, smokeless. You remain alert and yet relaxed, loose but fully awake. The body is in the deepest sleep possible and your consciousness is at its peak. The peak of consciousness and the valley of the body meet.

I went to sleep. It was a very strange sleep. The body was asleep, I was awake. It was so strange -- as if one was torn apart into two directions, two dimensions; as if the polarity has become completely focused, as if I was both the polarities together... the positive and negative were meeting, sleep and awareness were meeting, death and life were meeting. That is the moment when you can say 'the creator and the creation meet.'

It was weird. For the first time it shocks you to the very roots, it shakes your foundations. You can never be the same after that experience; it brings a new vision to your life, a new quality.

Near about twelve my eyes suddenly opened -- I had not opened them. The sleep was broken by something else. I felt a great presence around me in the room. It was a very small room. I felt a throbbing life all around me, a great vibration -- almost like a hurricane, a great storm of light, joy, ecstasy. I was drowning in it.

It was so tremendously real that everything became unreal. The walls of the room became unreal, the house became unreal, my own body became unreal. Everything was unreal because now there was for the first time reality.

That's why when Buddha and Shankara say the world is maya, a mirage, it is difficult for us to understand. Because we know only this world, we don't have any comparison. This is the only reality we know. What are these people talking about -- this is maya, illusion? This is the only reality. Unless you come to know the really real, their words cannot be understood, their words remain theoretical. They look like hypotheses. Maybe this man is propounding a philosophy -- 'The world is unreal'.

When Berkley in the West said that the world is unreal, he was walking with one of his friends, a very logical man; the friend was almost a skeptic. He took a stone from the road and hit Berkley's feet hard. Berkley screamed, blood rushed out, and the skeptic said, 'Now, the world is unreal? You say the world is unreal? -- then why did you scream? This stone is unreal? -- then why did you scream? Then why are you holding your leg and why are you showing so much pain and anguish on your face. Stop this? It is all unreal.

Now this type of man cannot understand what Buddha means when he says the world is a mirage. He does not mean that you can pass through the wall. He is not saying this -- that you can eat stones and it will make no difference whether you eat bread or stones. He is not saying that.

He is saying that there is a reality. Once you come to know it, this so-called reality simply pales out, simply becomes unreal. With a higher reality in vision the comparison arises, not otherwise.

In the dream; the dream is real. You dream every night. Dream is one of the greatest activities that you go on doing. If you live sixty years, twenty years you will sleep and almost ten years you will dream. Ten years in a life -- nothing else do you do so much. Ten years of continuous dreaming -- just think about it. And every night.... And every morning you say it was unreal, and again in the night when you dream, dream becomes real.

In a dream it is so difficult to remember that this is a dream. But in the morning it is so easy. What happens? You are the same person. In the dream there is only one reality. How to compare? How to say it is unreal? Compared to what? It is the only reality. Everything is as unreal as everything else so there is no comparison. In the morning when you open your eyes another reality is there. Now you can say it was all unreal. Compared to this reality, dream becomes unreal.

There is an awakening -- compared to THAT reality of THAT awakening, this whole reality becomes unreal.

That night for the first time I understood the meaning of the word maya. Not that I had not known the word before, not that I was not aware of the meaning of the word. As you are aware, I was also aware of the meaning -- but I had never understood it before. How can you understand without experience?

That night another reality opened its door, another dimension became available. Suddenly it was there, the other reality, the separate reality, the really real, or whatsoever you want to call it -- call it god, call it truth, call it dhamma, call it tao, or whatsoever you will. It was nameless. But it was there -- so opaque, so transparent, and yet so solid one could have touched it. It was almost suffocating me in that room. It was too much and I was not yet capable of absorbing it.

A deep urge arose in me to rush out of the room, to go under the sky -- it was suffocating me. It was too much! It will kill me! If I had remained a few moments more, it would have suffocated me -- it looked like that.

I rushed out of the room, came out in the street. A great urge was there just to be under the sky with the stars, with the trees, with the earth... to be with nature. And immediately as I came out, the feeling of being suffocated disappeared. It was too small a place for such a big phenomenon. Even the sky is a small place for that big phenomenon. It is bigger than the sky. Even the sky is not the limit for it. But then I felt more at ease.

I walked towards the nearest garden. It was a totally new walk, as if gravitation had disappeared. I was walking, or I was running, or I was simply flying; it was difficult to decide. There was no gravitation, I was feeling weightless -- as if some energy was taking me. I was in the hands of some other energy.

For the first time I was not alone, for the first time I was no more an individual, for the first time the drop has come and fallen into the ocean. Now the whole ocean was mine, I was the ocean. There was no limitation. A tremendous power arose as if I could do anything whatsoever. I was not there, only the power was there.

I reached to the garden where I used to go every day. The garden was closed, closed for the night. It was too late, it was almost one o'clock in the night. The gardeners were fast asleep. I had to enter the garden like a thief, I had to climb the gate. But something was pulling me towards the garden. It was not within my capacity to prevent myself. I was just floating.

That's what I mean when I say again and again 'float with the river, don't push the river'. I was relaxed, I was in a let-go. I was not there. IT was there, call it god -- god was there.

I would like to call it IT, because god is too human a word, and has become too dirty by too much use, has become too polluted by so many people. Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans, priests and politicians -- they all have corrupted the beauty of the word. So let me call it IT. IT was there and I was just carried away... carried by a tidal wave.

The moment I entered the garden everything became luminous, it was all over the place -- the benediction, the blessedness. I could see the trees for the first time -- their green, their life, their very sap running. The whole garden was asleep, the trees were asleep. But I could see the whole garden alive, even the small grass leaves were so beautiful.

I looked around. One tree was tremendously luminous -- the maulshree tree. It attracted me, it pulled me towards itself. I had not chosen it, god himself has chosen it. I went to the tree, I sat under the tree. As I sat there things started settling. The whole universe became a benediction.

It is difficult to say how long I was in that state. When I went back home it was four o'clock in the morning, so I must have been there by clock time at least three hours -- but it was infinity. It had nothing to do with clock time. It was timeless.

Those three hours became the whole eternity, endless eternity. There was no time, there was no passage of time; it was the virgin reality -- uncorrupted, untouchable, unmeasurable.

And that day something happened that has continued -- not as a continuity -- but it has still continued as an undercurrent. Not as a permanency -- each moment it has been happening again and again. It has been a miracle each moment.

That night... and since that night I have never been in the body. I am hovering around it. I became tremendously powerful and at the same time very fragile. I became very strong, but that strength is not the strength of a Mohammed Ali. That strength is not the strength of a rock, that strength is the strength of a rose flower -- so fragile in his strength... so fragile, so sensitive, so delicate."

"But I have never been in the body again, I am just hovering around the body. And that's why I say it has been a tremendous miracle. Each moment I am surprised I am still here, I should not be. I should have left any moment, still I am here. Every morning I open my eyes and I say, 'So, again I am still here?' Because it seems almost impossible. The miracle has been a continuity."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8050301 - 02/21/08 12:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup: on this anecdote.  Makes me more and more want to start reading some Buddhist texts.  What do you think of this analogy?

Dreaming : Lucid Dreaming :: Life : Enlightenment.

It's only through lucid dreaming that you can "wake up" in your dream and see it for the unreality that it really is, and similarly, enlightenment shows the basic unreality of our waking lives.  One perhaps as training for the other?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Edited by deCypher (02/21/08 12:57 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesky
Heir of Isildur
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 304
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8050748 - 02/21/08 07:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"If not, what would you consider "true" enlightenment?"

I'll tell you what it is for me. With each trip, each high, I tear down another curtain, another wall - another membrane. Different tools take away the boundaries in different ways. Like psychedelics and dissociatives. In my experience, the psychedelic removal of boundaries is more fluid and conscious-related then the dissociative path. My first major break through the social walls was with DXM. Where mushrooms lift me into the sky and show me that this "wall" was just a little ramp that I can step over, DXM uses me to ram through the wall and then I'm left lying in my shattered beliefs. Both are effective, it's about personal preferance.

First of, I don't know what enlightment is. But I think it is when you clear all the walls around you - when you can be anywhere and everywhere. I believe that it's when you have beat the biological level of life - when you go on to the next level - something beyond this. Recently I watched a video with Terrence Mckenna called "The World and its Double" or something like that where he talked about moving on to the next stage... heh he describes it better then me :smile:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejustamonkey
Stranger


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8070417 - 02/25/08 10:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ego death...is immeasurable from person to person. Simply tooting your own horn about it is effectively undermining the very thing you sought to dilute. A very powerful tool for mitigating the ego and keeping your mind 'out' of the picture is focusing on the now.

The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle is a big help. The ego is an amalgamation of mentally conditioned responses that has a quasi-sentience that is in full control 99% of the time in most people.

That nervous OMG feeling that feels like confusion and awe and excitement and whoa! Cool!...all that at once, when you don't really *realize* that your all alone, since you always knew you were mortal and that your going to die and that's all thats real. That's ego death to me. What I wrote is a description, of coarse. The real deal is an indescribable condition that results in your mind falling flat because all of its previously held assumptions about reality go away...all at once...when combined with the perception of the world where time doesn't exist, that means those assumptions are gone FOREVER (And right about at that point, your mind goes Oh Shit!)

However, I do believe its possible to put dedicated effort into dissolving those assumptions on ones own. However, it is no trivial matter.

To me, psychoactive materials 'grease the groove' so to speak.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: justamonkey]
    #8070871 - 02/25/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I believe John Lilly said that ego death on ketamine was a step beyond experienced on LSD because with a psychedelic ego death there was some level of self that still existed, but on ketamine even that was completely wiped out.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOphanim
The Molecule'sSpirit
Male


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #8071143 - 02/26/08 01:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That description of enlightenment was incredible. I wonder if it would be possible to reach it so late in the game...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshadowed
Nestled in theback of yourmind
Male


Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 267
Loc: the SW
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Ophanim]
    #8071256 - 02/26/08 02:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That "enlightenment" description reminds me of my first heavy dose/full ego-dissolution trip. That weightless feeling, like you're just floating around above your body as it moves around, comes in on all of my trips since then. And the feeling of being drawn, effortlessly, to the place where the greatest part happens also keeps with that trip of mine. I was pulled five blocks home after leaving the fringes of a bad trip behind, and the entire walk I felt as though some force was pulling me home, step by step. I even tried to stray from the path home, but I couldn't take more than a few steps before being pulled back.

What then happened was an hour and a half of absolute ego-loss, where I was being taken on some endless but beautiful journey. ALl of the dread of bad trips dissolved and I saw the "good" path versus the rocky one. That hour and a half went by in what felt timeless but at the same time instant, as if I had gone somewhere far away and returned but forgotten how long I had been gone. The perfection of this experience, followed by the things that I learned after coming back, have reshaped everything that I see. Now every day I live I am reminded of the intangible possibilities beyond our perception, from my dreams at night to the things I write.

Then come the dreams. I would say that the Dream: Lucid Dream::Life : Enlightenment analogy is a valid one, for obvious reasons. There's so many simple ways to explain it but in the end only so many people have actually experienced the "wake up" feeling in dreams or a trip.

There's a short story called "Flatland" that sums up the entire illusionary reality issue. I was already done summarizing it, but then I thought that it'd be much more productive if you all just went a googled it or looked it up on wikipedia.


--------------------
Life is just a flashback...


I may have gone a bit too far, I fear
Will I get out of it this time?
What was I thinking, taking this leap
I thought I knew where we would go
If only I knew, I had no idea.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: shadowed]
    #8072202 - 02/26/08 11:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

such a lovely post:grin:


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Muscaria   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* ego death
( 1 2 all )
OutkastSlug 4,776 23 06/29/05 03:45 PM
by Toddo
* ego death? great experience.. feedback pls :) _JJ_ 3,463 5 03/02/21 02:19 AM
by Happy333444
* Ego death on 2.5 grams Holydiver 2,820 10 12/30/04 10:07 PM
by Quankus
* Re: Ego Death from Mushrooms? shroom-girlie 3,158 7 03/24/01 12:35 PM
by 420shroomer
* 2nd trip = Ego Death: and the word is R.e.s.p.e.c.t
( 1 2 all )
Ajna_Chakra 3,856 20 05/19/04 02:23 PM
by saltlick
* a good trip report that illustrates ego death? Anonymous 2,648 3 06/19/14 05:01 AM
by psilocybinjunkie
* Ego death??? infamous 980 7 01/02/05 12:37 AM
by Heineken
* Re: !!! EGO DEATH !!! Mitchnast 1,475 1 04/30/01 12:24 AM
by HB

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: psilocybinjunkie, Rose, mushboy, LogicaL Chaos, Northerner, bodhisatta
10,519 topic views. 3 members, 73 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.035 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.