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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8049924 - 02/20/08 11:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Any qualitative differences, or were they both merely facets of the same true enlightenment?




Neither of them were of what I consider to be "true" enlightenment, but ego death on acid has turned out to have provided the most self-knowledge.

I've heard of people experiencing complete reality meltdowns on ketamine, but I have never encountered it. I must get the good stuff.


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OfflineSeraph in Blue
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8049988 - 02/20/08 11:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I've experienced ego death on Ketamine, and it's not pleasant like it is with psychedelics for me. For me, when ego death occurs with psychedelics, it's more of a fullfilling experience where I am just experience the beauty of consciousness, naked existence and I just feel so far from all of my urges or contextual life. With Ketamine it's just weird and confusing to the point where I wouldn't want to do it again.

I've had an overwhelming ego death experience while mixing rolls once. There was definitely a large dose of MDMA, some MDA, and some Ketamine. I took a few hits off of a bong and it sent me spiraling downward into this complete and intensely negative ego death where I felt reality and consciousness as a huge farce and that everyone was one big cosmic joke, and I was the butt of it. It was "ego death" but not in the classic sense, more of just a feeling of a different and very confusing astral plane.


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OfflineSeraph in Blue
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8049997 - 02/20/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
Any qualitative differences, or were they both merely facets of the same true enlightenment?




Neither of them were of what I consider to be "true" enlightenment, but ego death on acid has turned out to have provided the most self-knowledge.

I've heard of people experiencing complete reality meltdowns on ketamine, but I have never encountered it. I must get the good stuff.




I am one of those first-hand examples of that complete reality loss, and let me tell you, it sucks, and lasts for waaaaay too long.

See my above post for details.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Seraph in Blue]
    #8050083 - 02/20/08 11:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It may have been similar to my experience on acid, it was horrifying and felt like it lasted for years. But was worth it in every way, to get a glimpse of that timeless state of nothingness.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8050102 - 02/20/08 11:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

IMO true ego death should be absolutely shattering, the ego is what gives us that sense of time, and to experience true ego death would be to experience utter timelessness.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8050121 - 02/20/08 11:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Not true enlightenment? I would have to disagree with you there. In my opinion (granted that very few of us have actually spent the majority of our life training in meditation to see what "true enlightenment" is like from the first-hand experience), I would say that psychedelics and meditation take you to the same place, but just as psychedelics ramp you up to a state of cosmic awareness within the space of hours, you are also ramped down from that state within the space of hours.

I would postulate that it's only via years of meditation that you can truly stay enlightened or close to it for a long while after the experience. But the actual enlightenment regardless of the methods used to obtain it appear to be more or less the same thing (judging by sources such as Ram Dass and the like, for what that's worth).

If not, what would you consider "true" enlightenment?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8050196 - 02/21/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well it is my belief that there are levels to which one can experience enlightenment. I have been meditating almost daily for 6 years, and it definitely has brought enlightening experiences. But I will post an excerpt from a guy who claims to have been through "true" enlightenment. He started meditating when he was around 7 years old and spent most of his early years in solitude, which definitely contributed to his awakening. At around age 20 he went through a year long experience of naturally induced ego death, which resulted in permanent consciousness expansion. -


"I went to sleep near about eight. It was not like sleep. Now I can understand what Patanjali means when he says that sleep and samadhi are similar. Only with one difference -- that in samadhi you are fully awake and asleep also. Asleep and awake together, the whole body relaxed, every cell of the body totally relaxed, all functioning relaxed, and yet a light of awareness burns within you... clear, smokeless. You remain alert and yet relaxed, loose but fully awake. The body is in the deepest sleep possible and your consciousness is at its peak. The peak of consciousness and the valley of the body meet.

I went to sleep. It was a very strange sleep. The body was asleep, I was awake. It was so strange -- as if one was torn apart into two directions, two dimensions; as if the polarity has become completely focused, as if I was both the polarities together... the positive and negative were meeting, sleep and awareness were meeting, death and life were meeting. That is the moment when you can say 'the creator and the creation meet.'

It was weird. For the first time it shocks you to the very roots, it shakes your foundations. You can never be the same after that experience; it brings a new vision to your life, a new quality.

Near about twelve my eyes suddenly opened -- I had not opened them. The sleep was broken by something else. I felt a great presence around me in the room. It was a very small room. I felt a throbbing life all around me, a great vibration -- almost like a hurricane, a great storm of light, joy, ecstasy. I was drowning in it.

It was so tremendously real that everything became unreal. The walls of the room became unreal, the house became unreal, my own body became unreal. Everything was unreal because now there was for the first time reality.

That's why when Buddha and Shankara say the world is maya, a mirage, it is difficult for us to understand. Because we know only this world, we don't have any comparison. This is the only reality we know. What are these people talking about -- this is maya, illusion? This is the only reality. Unless you come to know the really real, their words cannot be understood, their words remain theoretical. They look like hypotheses. Maybe this man is propounding a philosophy -- 'The world is unreal'.

When Berkley in the West said that the world is unreal, he was walking with one of his friends, a very logical man; the friend was almost a skeptic. He took a stone from the road and hit Berkley's feet hard. Berkley screamed, blood rushed out, and the skeptic said, 'Now, the world is unreal? You say the world is unreal? -- then why did you scream? This stone is unreal? -- then why did you scream? Then why are you holding your leg and why are you showing so much pain and anguish on your face. Stop this? It is all unreal.

Now this type of man cannot understand what Buddha means when he says the world is a mirage. He does not mean that you can pass through the wall. He is not saying this -- that you can eat stones and it will make no difference whether you eat bread or stones. He is not saying that.

He is saying that there is a reality. Once you come to know it, this so-called reality simply pales out, simply becomes unreal. With a higher reality in vision the comparison arises, not otherwise.

In the dream; the dream is real. You dream every night. Dream is one of the greatest activities that you go on doing. If you live sixty years, twenty years you will sleep and almost ten years you will dream. Ten years in a life -- nothing else do you do so much. Ten years of continuous dreaming -- just think about it. And every night.... And every morning you say it was unreal, and again in the night when you dream, dream becomes real.

In a dream it is so difficult to remember that this is a dream. But in the morning it is so easy. What happens? You are the same person. In the dream there is only one reality. How to compare? How to say it is unreal? Compared to what? It is the only reality. Everything is as unreal as everything else so there is no comparison. In the morning when you open your eyes another reality is there. Now you can say it was all unreal. Compared to this reality, dream becomes unreal.

There is an awakening -- compared to THAT reality of THAT awakening, this whole reality becomes unreal.

That night for the first time I understood the meaning of the word maya. Not that I had not known the word before, not that I was not aware of the meaning of the word. As you are aware, I was also aware of the meaning -- but I had never understood it before. How can you understand without experience?

That night another reality opened its door, another dimension became available. Suddenly it was there, the other reality, the separate reality, the really real, or whatsoever you want to call it -- call it god, call it truth, call it dhamma, call it tao, or whatsoever you will. It was nameless. But it was there -- so opaque, so transparent, and yet so solid one could have touched it. It was almost suffocating me in that room. It was too much and I was not yet capable of absorbing it.

A deep urge arose in me to rush out of the room, to go under the sky -- it was suffocating me. It was too much! It will kill me! If I had remained a few moments more, it would have suffocated me -- it looked like that.

I rushed out of the room, came out in the street. A great urge was there just to be under the sky with the stars, with the trees, with the earth... to be with nature. And immediately as I came out, the feeling of being suffocated disappeared. It was too small a place for such a big phenomenon. Even the sky is a small place for that big phenomenon. It is bigger than the sky. Even the sky is not the limit for it. But then I felt more at ease.

I walked towards the nearest garden. It was a totally new walk, as if gravitation had disappeared. I was walking, or I was running, or I was simply flying; it was difficult to decide. There was no gravitation, I was feeling weightless -- as if some energy was taking me. I was in the hands of some other energy.

For the first time I was not alone, for the first time I was no more an individual, for the first time the drop has come and fallen into the ocean. Now the whole ocean was mine, I was the ocean. There was no limitation. A tremendous power arose as if I could do anything whatsoever. I was not there, only the power was there.

I reached to the garden where I used to go every day. The garden was closed, closed for the night. It was too late, it was almost one o'clock in the night. The gardeners were fast asleep. I had to enter the garden like a thief, I had to climb the gate. But something was pulling me towards the garden. It was not within my capacity to prevent myself. I was just floating.

That's what I mean when I say again and again 'float with the river, don't push the river'. I was relaxed, I was in a let-go. I was not there. IT was there, call it god -- god was there.

I would like to call it IT, because god is too human a word, and has become too dirty by too much use, has become too polluted by so many people. Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans, priests and politicians -- they all have corrupted the beauty of the word. So let me call it IT. IT was there and I was just carried away... carried by a tidal wave.

The moment I entered the garden everything became luminous, it was all over the place -- the benediction, the blessedness. I could see the trees for the first time -- their green, their life, their very sap running. The whole garden was asleep, the trees were asleep. But I could see the whole garden alive, even the small grass leaves were so beautiful.

I looked around. One tree was tremendously luminous -- the maulshree tree. It attracted me, it pulled me towards itself. I had not chosen it, god himself has chosen it. I went to the tree, I sat under the tree. As I sat there things started settling. The whole universe became a benediction.

It is difficult to say how long I was in that state. When I went back home it was four o'clock in the morning, so I must have been there by clock time at least three hours -- but it was infinity. It had nothing to do with clock time. It was timeless.

Those three hours became the whole eternity, endless eternity. There was no time, there was no passage of time; it was the virgin reality -- uncorrupted, untouchable, unmeasurable.

And that day something happened that has continued -- not as a continuity -- but it has still continued as an undercurrent. Not as a permanency -- each moment it has been happening again and again. It has been a miracle each moment.

That night... and since that night I have never been in the body. I am hovering around it. I became tremendously powerful and at the same time very fragile. I became very strong, but that strength is not the strength of a Mohammed Ali. That strength is not the strength of a rock, that strength is the strength of a rose flower -- so fragile in his strength... so fragile, so sensitive, so delicate."

"But I have never been in the body again, I am just hovering around the body. And that's why I say it has been a tremendous miracle. Each moment I am surprised I am still here, I should not be. I should have left any moment, still I am here. Every morning I open my eyes and I say, 'So, again I am still here?' Because it seems almost impossible. The miracle has been a continuity."


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
    #8050301 - 02/21/08 12:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup: on this anecdote.  Makes me more and more want to start reading some Buddhist texts.  What do you think of this analogy?

Dreaming : Lucid Dreaming :: Life : Enlightenment.

It's only through lucid dreaming that you can "wake up" in your dream and see it for the unreality that it really is, and similarly, enlightenment shows the basic unreality of our waking lives.  One perhaps as training for the other?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Edited by deCypher (02/21/08 12:57 AM)


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Offlinesky
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8050748 - 02/21/08 07:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"If not, what would you consider "true" enlightenment?"

I'll tell you what it is for me. With each trip, each high, I tear down another curtain, another wall - another membrane. Different tools take away the boundaries in different ways. Like psychedelics and dissociatives. In my experience, the psychedelic removal of boundaries is more fluid and conscious-related then the dissociative path. My first major break through the social walls was with DXM. Where mushrooms lift me into the sky and show me that this "wall" was just a little ramp that I can step over, DXM uses me to ram through the wall and then I'm left lying in my shattered beliefs. Both are effective, it's about personal preferance.

First of, I don't know what enlightment is. But I think it is when you clear all the walls around you - when you can be anywhere and everywhere. I believe that it's when you have beat the biological level of life - when you go on to the next level - something beyond this. Recently I watched a video with Terrence Mckenna called "The World and its Double" or something like that where he talked about moving on to the next stage... heh he describes it better then me :smile:


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Invisiblejustamonkey
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
    #8070417 - 02/25/08 10:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ego death...is immeasurable from person to person. Simply tooting your own horn about it is effectively undermining the very thing you sought to dilute. A very powerful tool for mitigating the ego and keeping your mind 'out' of the picture is focusing on the now.

The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle is a big help. The ego is an amalgamation of mentally conditioned responses that has a quasi-sentience that is in full control 99% of the time in most people.

That nervous OMG feeling that feels like confusion and awe and excitement and whoa! Cool!...all that at once, when you don't really *realize* that your all alone, since you always knew you were mortal and that your going to die and that's all thats real. That's ego death to me. What I wrote is a description, of coarse. The real deal is an indescribable condition that results in your mind falling flat because all of its previously held assumptions about reality go away...all at once...when combined with the perception of the world where time doesn't exist, that means those assumptions are gone FOREVER (And right about at that point, your mind goes Oh Shit!)

However, I do believe its possible to put dedicated effort into dissolving those assumptions on ones own. However, it is no trivial matter.

To me, psychoactive materials 'grease the groove' so to speak.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: justamonkey]
    #8070871 - 02/25/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I believe John Lilly said that ego death on ketamine was a step beyond experienced on LSD because with a psychedelic ego death there was some level of self that still existed, but on ketamine even that was completely wiped out.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineOphanim
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #8071143 - 02/26/08 01:20 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

That description of enlightenment was incredible. I wonder if it would be possible to reach it so late in the game...


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Offlineshadowed
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Ophanim]
    #8071256 - 02/26/08 02:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

That "enlightenment" description reminds me of my first heavy dose/full ego-dissolution trip. That weightless feeling, like you're just floating around above your body as it moves around, comes in on all of my trips since then. And the feeling of being drawn, effortlessly, to the place where the greatest part happens also keeps with that trip of mine. I was pulled five blocks home after leaving the fringes of a bad trip behind, and the entire walk I felt as though some force was pulling me home, step by step. I even tried to stray from the path home, but I couldn't take more than a few steps before being pulled back.

What then happened was an hour and a half of absolute ego-loss, where I was being taken on some endless but beautiful journey. ALl of the dread of bad trips dissolved and I saw the "good" path versus the rocky one. That hour and a half went by in what felt timeless but at the same time instant, as if I had gone somewhere far away and returned but forgotten how long I had been gone. The perfection of this experience, followed by the things that I learned after coming back, have reshaped everything that I see. Now every day I live I am reminded of the intangible possibilities beyond our perception, from my dreams at night to the things I write.

Then come the dreams. I would say that the Dream: Lucid Dream::Life : Enlightenment analogy is a valid one, for obvious reasons. There's so many simple ways to explain it but in the end only so many people have actually experienced the "wake up" feeling in dreams or a trip.

There's a short story called "Flatland" that sums up the entire illusionary reality issue. I was already done summarizing it, but then I thought that it'd be much more productive if you all just went a googled it or looked it up on wikipedia.


--------------------
Life is just a flashback...


I may have gone a bit too far, I fear
Will I get out of it this time?
What was I thinking, taking this leap
I thought I knew where we would go
If only I knew, I had no idea.


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: shadowed]
    #8072202 - 02/26/08 11:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

such a lovely post:grin:


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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