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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives?
#8046692 - 02/20/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So I was reading a few trip reports on Ketamine, and I was intrigued by the general consensus that ego death is apparently possible through dissociatives. My question is, is this the same ego death that is experienced through psychedelics (LSD, shrooms, etc...), and if so, could this mean that these dissociatives have some form of spiritual value if they can bring the average user to an enlightenment of sorts?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Jackenobi
Hermes



Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8046907 - 02/20/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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im not saying ive done ketamine but it seems kind of patent to me that you couldn't call an ego death on disassociative substance a product of enlightenment...
though you could find the experience enlightening on some level
but then its not something you could have earnt... so im speculating it would just be getting kinda wasted and high with no taught value like psychadelic revelation... because of no real lesson
-------------------- read books
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8046928 - 02/20/08 11:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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hmm i would say if your looking for a spiritual value one can always be found in psychedelics or dissociative. the whole experience is different but finding what you were looking to find is generally the same. Dissociative kinda are a statement of why you need to associated to other people and psychedelics which i use really loosely are a reminder of why one shouldnt be so self involved in thought even when specially while trying to associate but still be dissociated. in a sense LSD can be very dissociating, as the user is often pron to wanting to be outside of outside influences other then the ones of their mind. While lets say DXM can be like wow the world and interaction with people but damn laying on the floor and sinking into this world i created with my mind with out even having to think about it is amazing. The difference i guess im saying is that one has less thinking about think and the other is just straight thinking and seeing rather then thinking about it. or something of this such, of course this doesnt apply to all cases but something of a similar nature occurs
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Visionary Tools



Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
#8046941 - 02/20/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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From my breakthrough experiences on Salvia, yeah, ego death is real, and grabs you by the (far away) balls.
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MorphMan
δSλ



Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 1,362
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8047020 - 02/20/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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A "spiritual" experience can occur in any state of mind. It seems obvious to me that dissociatives could produce an experience that one could interpret as "spiritual." It's all in the eye of the beholder.
"Ego death" is just that, the death of the ego. There can be no difference between "ego death" experienced on psychedelics and "ego death" experienced on dissociatives. If there were a difference, than one of these experiences is not "ego death" by definition. It either is, or isn't.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: MorphMan]
#8047283 - 02/20/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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tho i think the true ego death is infact impossible unless your laying the floor no moving or functioning in any way. I find the ego to be a very important thing and the essence of life, and people that seek ego death only seek to better understand them self rather then achieving what i just said, its just all abou the illusion
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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MorphMan
δSλ



Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 1,362
Loc: Texas
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
#8047342 - 02/20/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Valid words.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8047825 - 02/20/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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@Visionary Tools: But isn't Salvia considered more akin to a psychedelic than the typical DXM-like dissociative? It's true it doesn't affect the traditional psychedelic 5-HT2A serotonin receptor, but I'd attribute its dissociative effects to more of the speed at which the compound takes effect than any NMDA receptor antagonism that takes place under traditional dissociatives.
@MorphMan: I agree--if ego death were taking place with both substances, then yes, by definition, they are both ego death. My question was whether or not ego death in fact EXISTS with substances like DXM and Ketamine, vs. a state more akin to unfettered lucid dreaming that's triggered when the mind disconnects from the body.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
Edited by deCypher (02/20/08 04:01 PM)
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ultimo101
Mushroomhead

Registered: 05/12/06
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8047902 - 02/20/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ego Death: Psychedelics PLUS Dissociatives?
FIXED
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SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8048041 - 02/20/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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god damn cypher that avatar reminds me of salvia almost in a bad way haha.
anyways, whether or not a substance causes ego death is irrelevant when considering its spiritual value. what objects, substances, deities, books, etc etc people place a spiritual value on is entirely dependent upon the individual. achieving ego death on a dissociative proves nothing more than you can get really really really really...really fuckin' high on ketamine.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: SlashOZ]
#8048189 - 02/20/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So psychedelics & dissociatives both can cause ego death, it seems. The next logical extension: is ego death possible on deliriants? It seems it would be much harder to accomplish as you are basically dreaming while awake with little to no lucidity or control over the experience, but if one were a trained lucid dreamer, I would postulate the experience might be possible.
And hehe thanks--tonight I'm actually planning to see if I can breakthrough on Sally D. Past experiences have either shot me up to an amnesiac state or simply given a high feeling, but tonight I figure I'll give the toke 20 minutes before method to try and use reverse tolerance to my advantage.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
Edited by deCypher (02/20/08 04:52 PM)
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FadedSoulJah
Stranger

Registered: 07/08/07
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8048284 - 02/20/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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This thread intrigued me greatly....I'm mostly an observer here, not much to say.... I do however have ALOT of experience with Ketamine, and there was a time that I dosed 2 hits of Blotter, then chased it with a HUGE rail of K.... I can't begin to get into details, but the world I was in was scarry......The hallucinations from acid, melded with the dissasosiotive Ketamine, and I ended up thinking that I was dead but there was a cruicifix on my wall and I began thinking that I was a decendant of the roman soldier that finally nailed Christ to the cross, and I was so sorry...........It was terrible guilt and I couldn't controll it.....My body was fucking shot and I spasmed on my bead...
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: FadedSoulJah]
#8048312 - 02/20/08 05:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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amainta is a good example of a deliriant that is can cause ego death but it is also dissociative and psychedelic, tho i still rest on so is datura when combined with aya and the rest of the brew.
when i relived 2 years of my life in a dream state i was delerious yet aware. which in turn im saying physically and my body in this world wasnt delierous from them. but in the other world i sure as hell was probally one of the strongest trips on them and it was from one of the lightest doses, but deffinatly was in a magic blend of spices all in low doses.
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
Edited by thedudenj (02/20/08 05:25 PM)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
#8048354 - 02/20/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just ordered some amanitas from iamshaman.com, actually. I read somewhere that this company pre-prepares the 'shrooms so that cooking is not necessary... is this true?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8048359 - 02/20/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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My experience with amanitas was terrifying and not fun at all.
Dissociatives ftl in my opinion.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Visionary Tools



Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: g00ru]
#8048419 - 02/20/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: @Visionary Tools: But isn't Salvia considered more akin to a psychedelic than the typical DXM-like dissociative? It's true it doesn't affect the traditional psychedelic 5-HT2A serotonin receptor, but I'd attribute its dissociative effects to more of the speed at which the compound takes effect than any NMDA receptor antagonism that takes place under traditional dissociatives.
From my 350mg experience with DXM, (I'm one of those people that like it, did a lot over the summer, and wouldn't mind doing it again) I felt I lost my mind, and the urge to dance was me, and it felt good.
Salvia is magicial, it's taken me to places I could never be. I hope that makes sense, but the point is, the feeling is distinctly different.
I've even woken up during a dream, my limbs felt like lead, then slipped back intto a more comfortable fantasy land. That was from drinking a large amount of tincture, a stupid amount, but whatever came through, was powerful enough to affect my dreams in such a unique way.
Down side to that is, I have mad salvia tolerance.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8048430 - 02/20/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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yes you can eat theirs they way they are but i still stand by nature gives me mine just right so i can use them as medicine for the people that live in that area.
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deCypher]
#8048940 - 02/20/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: So I was reading a few trip reports on Ketamine, and I was intrigued by the general consensus that ego death is apparently possible through dissociatives. My question is, is this the same ego death that is experienced through psychedelics (LSD, shrooms, etc...), and if so, could this mean that these dissociatives have some form of spiritual value if they can bring the average user to an enlightenment of sorts?
I have done very high doses of ketamine which have resulted in ego dissolution, but it was very different than ego death on acid or mushrooms. Ego death on acid is a shattering experience that takes me into nothing, but on ketamine it is more of a pleasant transcendence that rather takes me into fullness.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: deranger]
#8049550 - 02/20/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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wow i could say the oppisite thing but at the same time also the same thing. i have been on both sides. and a in between one
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Ego Death: Psychedelics vs. Dissociatives? [Re: thedudenj]
#8049894 - 02/20/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Any qualitative differences, or were they both merely facets of the same true enlightenment?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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