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t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
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new grower, where to go now?
#8037196 - 02/18/08 09:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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so i am currently growing 1 pint BRF/pf tek cakes, with an RR style FC. now i have achieved VERY good first flush results (100+ wet grams per cake usually), but after i dunk and roll (between flushes) , and put it back in the FC every one of the cakes basically dies and puts out 3-4 shrooms (one time it was 2) on the next flush. That is just not acceptable to me. so i dont know what im doing wrong, because my first flushes are always very very nice.
now my question is, where to go now? i was thinking of going to 1/2 pint BRF jars hoping that i could just get a LOT of first flushes because of the shorter colonization time and then just keep doing that... or maybe crumble the cakes and case them? ... or maybe just go to Rye/WBS and case? im a new grower and have only done cakes, so i would prefer to stay around them, but i dont mind going to casings as well if it is really that big of a difference between cakes.
basically im kind of lost right now, i have no idea why my flushes after the 1st suck, but i dont like it. and i want a new (and hopefully very rewarding method of growing. any advice would be great.
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Edited by t00th (02/18/08 09:36 AM)
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Neobean
Adept Mycologist


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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
#8037230 - 02/18/08 09:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you want to increase your flushes, spawn to bulk.
-------------------- If y0u want s0meting gr0wn right, y0u g0tta gr0w it y0urself!!!
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flavoraid
now with twicethe ketamine andopiates!

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 1,678
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: Neobean]
#8037528 - 02/18/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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if u wanna go to grains you need a pressure cooker.
it's much easier to bulk grow with grains. cakes aren't so bad though very consistant.
-------------------- coda said: imachavel, Man you really need to do some reading, the amount of bullshit you put into almost every single one of your posts is absolutely astounding.
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shroober
Myco Junkie


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 879
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: flavoraid]
#8037541 - 02/18/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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go straight to quart jars of grains, i believe PF cakes to be a waste of time if you are interested in mycology and not just "making groovy shrooms bro"
in my experience grains are quicker and easier, the only issue being you MUST have a pressure cooker, but again, if you want to get serious about mycology that is the first investment you have to make
good luck, congrats on your first grow!
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dill705
Amazed



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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: flavoraid]
#8037548 - 02/18/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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yeah, I had the same concerns with PF cakes. I think I'm going to do a monotub real soon.
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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flavoraid
now with twicethe ketamine andopiates!

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 1,678
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: dill705]
#8037565 - 02/18/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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grains colonize sooo fast with a liquid culture it's like a billion inoculation points.
-------------------- coda said: imachavel, Man you really need to do some reading, the amount of bullshit you put into almost every single one of your posts is absolutely astounding.
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iTrip
Electronic Trip



Registered: 11/21/07
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: flavoraid]
#8037773 - 02/18/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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PF cakes untill you gain enough experience.
and try casing your cakes. ive had great success crumbling 2-3 cakes per casing.
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t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: iTrip]
#8038773 - 02/18/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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i've thought about crumbling cakes for a while now. would that just be in some type of tub, with 1/2 inch of verm., then crumbled cakes (would 1-2 pint sized ones work for one tub), then a casing layer? and can i do this after a cake has already started fruiting, as long as its inbetween flushes? or is it better to use new cakes?
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
#8038877 - 02/18/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You are ready to level up.
You are getting great results from PF cakes, and you're getting your bulk in the first flush! You are getting 3/8 to 1/2 an oz per cake! You can't do PF cakes much better than that. What more do you want from them?
Look into grains... casing and/or spawning... or take pride in the fact that you're doing it right.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: Rose]
#8038924 - 02/18/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: You are ready to level up.
You are getting great results from PF cakes, and you're getting your bulk in the first flush! You are getting 3/8 to 1/2 an oz per cake! You can't do PF cakes much better than that. What more do you want from them?
Look into grains... casing and/or spawning... or take pride in the fact that you're doing it right.
i think you may have mis read my post. the problem is not that i am achieving excellent results on my first flush, my problem is that after my first flush my cakes shit out, and only produce 2-3 shrooms per cake/per flush.
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Edited by t00th (02/18/08 05:07 PM)
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dill705
Amazed



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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: Rose]
#8038926 - 02/18/08 05:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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On my first grow I had three jars colonize really slow, so I decided to case them. I had good success and now have an LC of B+ and another of GT clones.
I think that I'm going to finish my Equador and Treasure Coast PF cakes and make LC's of these strains before I get some of the Sporeworks new manure bags. Then it's monotub time
-------------------- My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end. -Icelander- I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW! ~dill705~
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t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: dill705]
#8038941 - 02/18/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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so you had good success from crumbling and casing the cakes? more so than if you had just fruited the cakes themselves?
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
#8039229 - 02/18/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ksinao said:
i think you may have mis read my post. the problem is not that i am achieving excellent results on my first flush, my problem is that after my first flush my cakes shit out, and only produce 2-3 shrooms per cake/per flush.
And I think you misunderstood what I said.
If you are getting 3/8 to 1/2 an OZ dry from EACH CAKE on AVERAGE, in TWO or FEWER flushes, what exactly is your problem? What more do you expect a pint of brf to produce?
You are getting great results for cakes.
You want better results, STOP USING CAKES... and use the big boy teks.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (02/18/08 06:11 PM)
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Jadis
..Just waituntil you seethe bats!

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 227
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: Rose]
#8039250 - 02/18/08 06:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I didnt really wanna start a whole new thread on this, but I am having the hardest time finding 1/2 pt. jars. I live in the states (s.carolina)
I've tried:
Walmart All grocery stores in the area Ace Hardware
and all of them just have like plastic tupperware and shit, but nothing that would really work for this. No where seems to have glass jars with lids. I could order them online but then shipping is like $12 Any suggestions..? I might just have to pay up..
-------------------- Do you realize that everyone you know someday will die? And instead of saying all of your goodbyes, Let them know you realize that life goes fast. It's hard to make the good things last. You realize the sun don't go down; It's just an illusion caused by the world spinnin' round.
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shroober
Myco Junkie


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 879
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: Jadis]
#8039414 - 02/18/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jadis said: I didnt really wanna start a whole new thread on this, but I am having the hardest time finding 1/2 pt. jars. I live in the states (s.carolina)
I've tried:
Walmart All grocery stores in the area Ace Hardware
and all of them just have like plastic tupperware and shit, but nothing that would really work for this. No where seems to have glass jars with lids. I could order them online but then shipping is like $12 Any suggestions..? I might just have to pay up..
are you positive you've checked at large grocery stores? they might not have 1/2 pints but they will certainly have more than plastic tupperware.
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large_dose
Melonhead



Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 1,346
Loc: Right in the Middle
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: shroober]
#8039432 - 02/18/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Definately, i spent a lot of time looking for the wide-mouth quart jars just to find out that both local grocery stores in my area carried more variety of jars than a walmart or rural-king does.
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Jadis
..Just waituntil you seethe bats!

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 227
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: shroober]
#8039435 - 02/18/08 06:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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bi-lo, ingles, and i'm going to food lion tomorrow sometime.
but bilo/ingles just had plastic tupperware (lots of it though), and like glass baking ware, but no glass jars
edit: oh and i asked an employee at each store and they just looked at me like i was retarded and they didnt know what a glass jar was. it was rather funny actually
-------------------- Do you realize that everyone you know someday will die? And instead of saying all of your goodbyes, Let them know you realize that life goes fast. It's hard to make the good things last. You realize the sun don't go down; It's just an illusion caused by the world spinnin' round.
Edited by Jadis (02/18/08 06:39 PM)
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t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: Rose]
#8040586 - 02/18/08 10:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
ksinao said:
i think you may have mis read my post. the problem is not that i am achieving excellent results on my first flush, my problem is that after my first flush my cakes shit out, and only produce 2-3 shrooms per cake/per flush.
And I think you misunderstood what I said.
If you are getting 3/8 to 1/2 an OZ dry from EACH CAKE on AVERAGE, in TWO or FEWER flushes, what exactly is your problem? What more do you expect a pint of brf to produce?
i was under the impression that i would be getting 3-5 flushes on cakes, not one. that is what is disappointing to me. Not the weight that i have been getting, i am extremely happy and proud of that. but the fact that it's not repeating. i would have never done cakes to begin with if i knew i would only be getting one good flush per cake. maybe my first flushes are so big it uses to many nutrients? maybe the cake gets wore out? i dont know. i am very new at all of this. thats why i was asking about alternatives because i get a lot of mixed feedback, it seems people who use one method are biased towards that method and that makes it hard to make an educated decision.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
#8041505 - 02/19/08 03:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ksinao said:
i was under the impression that i would be getting 3-5 flushes on cakes, not one. that is what is disappointing to me. Not the weight that i have been getting, i am extremely happy and proud of that. but the fact that it's not repeating. i would have never done cakes to begin with if i knew i would only be getting one good flush per cake. maybe my first flushes are so big it uses to many nutrients? maybe the cake gets wore out? i dont know. i am very new at all of this. thats why i was asking about alternatives because i get a lot of mixed feedback, it seems people who use one method are biased towards that method and that makes it hard to make an educated decision.
Well, first of all, people are biased towards what works for them. Pick a tek that works with supplies you can get easily, where you live, and you'll begin to like IT best. 
I suspect your first flushes are simply so big they damage the outer mycelial network of your cake. Perhaps dunk and double roll (and patch the holes)? I don't know...
But really, you're getting the average bulk out of that one flush. You could let it happen over 4 or 5 flushes (like it does for most people) if it makes you feel better... but at least your way is quicker.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: Rose]
#8042271 - 02/19/08 10:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
I suspect your first flushes are simply so big they damage the outer mycelial network of your cake. Perhaps dunk and double roll (and patch the holes)? I don't know...
double roll? how would the verm stick to verm? please explain.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
#8043202 - 02/19/08 02:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I just mean, make sure you get a LOT of verm on them... and patch the holes from your first flush. Don't know if it'll help though. I think you're getting about as much as you'll get... but I suspect lots of verm to encourage new myc and a lot of water are about the only things you can still try.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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_Silence_
Silence



Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 101
Loc: West Coast
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
#8622005 - 07/11/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Make your own spore prints from your harvest.
Try casing.
Then move on to grains...
--------------------
" We will come to find that we are all one mind "
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PowerOfTheCoir
Newbie Sympathizer



Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 421
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: _Silence_]
#8622607 - 07/11/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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On Cakes and Flushes
Everyone is telling you to be happy for a good reason - that's a respectable yield you're getting.
Flushes are rarely even. The variations in flush weights aren't always random either. Flushes are heavily dependent on available water and available food.
You can't do anything about the food (and don't try). I suspect that this might be the big culprit. Later flushes slow down because there's less food available. With big first flushes, you SHOULD see less in later flushes. People who get 7 flushes often have, at best, a bunch of moderate yields and a few small ones. Most people consider being able to get more of the total cake potential fruited in the early flushes a huge plus. This means you get your weight before contams can stop you.
For the water, dunk. You're already doing this, but evaluate your method and see if there is any room for improvement. You're using cakes that are twice as big as the standard half-pint, so it may take a little longer to fully hydrate them. They're not sponges that just suck water through tiny channels into waiting open spaces. You're actually hydrating the cells . The outer cells have to get water into the inner cells, and with a larger mass it will take longer. If you are only dunking for 12 hours (often said to be fine for post-flush dunks) try 24 hours. Just be sure to do it in the fridge because the cold slows down the metabolism so that the O2 deprivation doesn't cause problems.
Another improvement you might not be using for your dunk is the "deep dunk." Get the deepest pot you can, put the cakes on the bottom, hold them down with a heavy plate, and fill with water to the top. the extra water pressure from being further under the surface helps to force more water into the cells. I don't know if water is even your problem, but none of these modifications cost anything and they're low/no risk.
 (Second flush after a much bigger 1st flush and deep 24hr dunk. All it's friends are doing well too, if not better)
Do you roll in verm after the second dunking? I think you said you did, but if not, try starting.
If there's not even much pinning, try improving pinning procedures. Maybe they're so healthy coming out of the jars that they are pinning well despite some problem, but they get picky after the first flush. Make sure you have plenty of humidity, FAE, and light. The easiest thing to introduce is the right light - all you have to do is buy these at any big store ($59 is the energy savings, not the price!):

Still, it's entirely possible that you're just really doing a great job of getting most of your work done up front.
On Bulk, Grains, and Crumble'n'Case
Quote:
now my question is, where to go now? i was thinking of going to 1/2 pint BRF jars hoping that i could just get a LOT of first flushes because of the shorter colonization time and then just keep doing that... or maybe crumble the cakes and case them? ... or maybe just go to Rye/WBS and case? im a new grower and have only done cakes, so i would prefer to stay around them, but i dont mind going to casings as well if it is really that big of a difference between cakes.
Crumble and casing is waaay over-rated. It does produce shrooms, often with a lot up front, but it never really outperforms cakes. It's also tougher to care for than cakes and more prone to contamination. I used to crumble-and-case and thought it was awesome. Then I helped a friend set up a tub with cakes and realized I was getting zero benefit from my method.
If you do crumble and case, ignore what people say about a bottom layer of verm. The bottom layer (often called "bottom casing") was an interesting idea, but it never worked right and caused lots of problems. I tried and abandoned that one too.
Quote:
i am very new at all of this. thats why i was asking about alternatives because i get a lot of mixed feedback, it seems people who use one method are biased towards that method and that makes it hard to make an educated decision.
Liar! A "very new" grower doesn't get yields like you do. And when he has a problem, he immediately kills his cakes by doing things everyone warned him not to. You're easily entering the intermediate stage. You can succeed with a complete tek and diagnose basic problems. You're ready to move on.
Don't be scared by "bulk" growing. Bulk doesn't have to mean huge, it just means that when you take you spawn (cakes or grains) out of the jars, you mix it with something nutritious to make more food available. It can be as small as you want or as big as you can handle.
A "bulk" grow can be small

Since you are very comfortable with cakes, you may want to try them as your first bulk spawn. Yes, grains are better. However, cakes will let you use one less new step your first time around. Just birth your cakes as normal, then crumble them up. Many people prefer to crumble them in a bag for cleanliness. For your bulk material, just read grow logs and similar reports on this board and in the archives. See what works for other people and seems like something you can handle. Everyone has something they prefer, and yes we're all biased towards it. You can look at my name and tell what I think you should start with. The hpoo people are right too. If you can find one but not the other, that makes your choice easy. If not, just see which one "calls to you." If you see a technique advocated by intelligent sounding people on this board and producing nice results, it's probably safe to try even if other intelligent people advocate something else.
Just don't case with coir or straight verm. Those people are wrong, wgrong, WRONG!
And don't let grains scare you either. Yeah, they're a little finicky until you get the hydration right, but once you get it down they're cheaper, easier, and better for spawn than cakes. With your pint jars, you can easily hedge your bets. Make some cakes per usual, and if you have a PC, make some grains. We KNOW you can handle cakes, so unless a syringe goes evil, you'll at least have something to bulk with.
Good luck "movin' on up" into bulk, non-newbie!
-------------------- Check out my first ever TEK! Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)
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BrandNewbie
Captain



Registered: 05/21/08
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I'm envious! Congrats!!!
-------------------- Question: Why do women wear make-up and perfume? Answer: Because they're ugly and they stink.
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i3oosted
Stranger
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Posts: 430
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: t00th]
#8622667 - 07/11/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Looking for jars? For my first tek I just tried craigslist and found a guy with NEW UNUSED 7 cases of wide mouth 1/2 pint jars for 5 bucks a case. So you never know. Also ACE Hardware will carry them they just might have to order them for you.
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buggas
Stranger


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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: i3oosted]
#8623234 - 07/11/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Just don't case with coir or straight verm. Those people are wrong, wgrong, WRONG!
Just out of curiosity why do you say that? More specifically the coir case part. If you're feeling generous, please explain why, instead of saying "cuz coir sucks".
For jar seekers: Don't forget, when you look for jars (or ask for them) remember that they are used for canning stuff so you might want to mention that when you ask the staff. Most of the time they are not anywhere near the Tupperware and plastic. I found mine in a dark corner of the store near the back; and the other time, they were in the front, next to the firewood, large bags of dog food and carpet cleaner rental. Since canning isn't really that big nowadays they're a little harder to see, but they're usually around for the canning grannies.
-------------------- There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers from stupid people. Watch Zeitgeist and Tell Others
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themange
Senior Citizen



Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 2,809
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: buggas]
#8623298 - 07/11/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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ive cased with straight verm on hundreds of casings.
verm isnt the devil..
you get what you put into it.
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PowerOfTheCoir
Newbie Sympathizer



Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 421
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Re: new grower, where to go now? [Re: themange]
#8625113 - 07/12/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Just out of curiosity why do you say that? More specifically the coir case part. If you're feeling generous, please explain why, instead of saying "cuz coir sucks".
Quote:
ive cased with straight verm on hundreds of casings.
verm isnt the devil..
That was an attempt at sarcasm that failed horribly. I often write like I speak. I forgot that a lot of things that sound clear without inflection and body language to help don't translate over to text on a screen. I put that unsupported, absolutist statement right after a paragraph that concluded by saying not to believe most absolutism. (see below)
Quote:
If you see a technique advocated by intelligent sounding people on this board and producing nice results, it's probably safe to try even if other intelligent people advocate something else.
Just don't case with coir or straight verm. Those people are wrong, wgrong, WRONG!
My bad. I had a brain fart. Now that I'm actually reading it, there's really no way to tell if it was sarcasm, or me saying that those two casings were the spawn of the dark lord himself. Well, let me make this clear right now - Satan didn't invent, nor has he even advocated, straight verm casings or casings containing any level of coir.
They were invented by Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light.
 (This guy cases with verm and/or coir)
There, I think I remembered how to make a joke clear on the internet. Now as far as my beliefs on the two casings....
Many intelligent people advocate straight verm or casings with coir in them. Many of these intelligent people get consistently impressive results with those casings. They certainly can't be BAD then. They probably can even be good!
(Just for disclosure's sake, my bias is towards peat/verm w/ gypsum and lime. I intend to experiment with oyster shells and a few other additives soon as well.)
100% Verm - I've done this. It worked. It's definitely the most straightforward casing to prepare. There's no mixing involved and pH isn't even a consideration. There's no worrying about whether to pasteurize or sterilize. It's totally inorganic, so you can often just hydrate, but it's also so ridiculously easy to sterilize, so most people go that way. There aren't any beneficial bacteria, so you don't have to try to keep it in a certain temp range - just bake the heck out of it. It holds water extremely well and the uniform texture makes it easy to apply evenly. With that said, I prefer having the beneficial bacteria which peat adds to the casing. I think that the bacteria can help fight off contaminants and, more importantly to me, I feel that they help with pinning. I don't have anything conclusive to support that, except that when I used peat in casings and pasteurized properly, I seem to see better pinsets. They weren't deliberate experiments, so I'm just stating my opinion. Maybe other people who have said the same have data, but I won't pretend to. I also feel that the peat component also improves the pinning climate by evaporating water at a better rate than verm. Verm definitely HOLDS water better, so that's why the 50/50 mix works well (in my opinion).
Coir in casings also works very well for some people. I haven't tried it, but I want to give it a run someday (albeit in my own way). The advantage I see in it is that having some food in a casing layer can help the the mycellium colonize up through it and quickly/evenly find pinning triggers like light and fresher air. That's just speculation though - I really don't know why people love it so much. I don't mean that to sound rude, I really think there IS a reason that rational people like it, I just don't get it. There are, however, reasons I don't like it, or at least consider it risky/counterproductive. My understanding is that casing should not be fully colonized, otherwise it's just more substrate. I think coir encourages the casing to get fully colonized, especially when it is used as a major ingredient. Uncased substrates can have great yields, but I want to either go uncased, or have a properly performing casing layer. I don't like having nutrition in something that has a role as a contaminant barrier. I also believe that the best pinning is created by introducing every trigger possible as close together as possible. Running out of food to colonize is a big trigger. Maybe adding a small amount of food won't affect that, but I still like having everything hit it at once.
I tried to make it very clear how much much of that is simple opinion. There's not a lot of empirical data in cubensis growing because the dominant culture prefers other drugs (I bet tobacco farmers don't have trouble finding government supported research that is useful to them). Our experiments are done in closets and bedrooms scattered around the world. Aside from on boards like this, there is not even the slightest amount of information sharing between each independent researcher. Maybe we can figure out a safe way to exchange detailed data and compile it into a large enough dataset to be useful, but until then we have to settle for getting as many opinions as possible, evaluating the strength of each argument, and weighting them for perceived reliability of the poster. Rambling aside, we can't objectively know how those casings compare with any degree of certainty, so the only truly wrong statement is the one that goes "----- is undoubtedly the best."
But don't listen to the LC people - they don't know jack.
-------------------- Check out my first ever TEK! Shroom capsules with the Cap-M-Quik (pics)
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