|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Well, They Love Us In Kosovo...
#8034836 - 02/17/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Anyone who pays any attention at all to global politics has probably heard that the tiny country of Kosovo declared it's independence from Serbia today. Kosovo was, for the young or ignorant, the country whose nacent independence movement in 1999 drew the wrath of the Serbian government and led the the US-NATO airstrikes of that year that forced the Serbs to pull back.
I was looking at some picture galleries today which are full of pictures of people in downtown Pristina, the capital of Kosovo waving American flags all over the place. They love us there.
Let this be a signal to those who say that force is inherently evil and the United States is the bane of the world.
Things are not as simple as you think.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
Seraph in Blue
Stranger

Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 198
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8034887 - 02/17/08 02:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I saw a news clip on that. Good stuff. I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy. Nothing is so clear cut, black and white for so many people to be so polarized on the issue. Surprisingly to some, the U.S. sure does alot of good for alot of global communities.
|
Kombat Frank
GREAT JOB!



Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 277
Loc: earth
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Seraph in Blue]
#8034933 - 02/17/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seraph in Blue said: I saw a news clip on that. Good stuff. I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy. Nothing is so clear cut, black and white for so many people to be so polarized on the issue. Surprisingly to some, the U.S. sure does alot of good for alot of global communities.
what types of things do we do?
--------------------
ego tripping at the gates of hell
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Seraph in Blue]
#8034954 - 02/17/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seraph in Blue said: I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy.
Don't keep your mouth shut. Educate the stupid cocksuckers. You may become as hated as I am but at least you'll have done the right thing.
--------------------
|
buckwheat
Cynically Insane


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8035230 - 02/17/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah i saw that.
|
Seraph in Blue
Stranger

Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 198
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Kombat Frank]
#8035259 - 02/17/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kombat Frank said:
Quote:
Seraph in Blue said: I saw a news clip on that. Good stuff. I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy. Nothing is so clear cut, black and white for so many people to be so polarized on the issue. Surprisingly to some, the U.S. sure does alot of good for alot of global communities.
what types of things do we do?
Well for one thing, the MAJORITY of American citizens and the government is very receptive and accepting of immigrants coming in from other countries escaping political persecution or tyranical regimes, I know this well, I being one of them. Most other nations seem to be much to sympathetic to despotism, it's the European way. So alot of us are very thankful that at least the United States has retained some of its status as a sanctuary for the sick, tired, and the poor.
It also should be noted that the United States government gives more monetary aid, and to more countries in the world than any other one country. While anyone can argue that there are alterior motivations, political agendas, etc behind every foreign policy action the U.S. takes, seemingly benevolent or not, it can't be argued that there are countless children in the third world better off because our Government or average citizens stepped in. All arguments for or against altruism aside, I think what this country has done for many communities, wether its donating crops to African nations or accepting immigrants who have nowhere else to turn around the world is noble and to be commended.
|
The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Seraph in Blue]
#8035980 - 02/17/08 11:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Id like to know how many Iraqi refugees we have accepted? Even the US is afraid to put a large amount of Iraqis into the US from the quagmire they started.
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#8036017 - 02/17/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Where are all the pacifists/isolationsists?
Nothing to say about this one today?
Ron Paul supporters? Ron Paul would never have stood for an action like this. It is anathema to everything he stands for.
Clinton bashers? I suppose you believe Clinton just did this to draw attention away from his own problems?
Anti-UN hacks? Is this the exception to the UN never working, rather than the rule?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8036087 - 02/17/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
This is truly a great sign to see that region becoming more democratic and autonomous and it is a victory for self-determination. Looks like the final, logical conclusion of the Balkanisation that began following the disintegration of Yugoslavia. It's also a very very nice sign to see the American flag being waved in the streets of Kosovo and is certainly a sight for sore eyes.
However, I wonder what sort of implications this will have for Western-Russian relations now that the US and EU have extended recognition. Serbia is a staunch ally of the Russians and has been a traditional ally since before World War I to such a degree that it may even be considered a Russian protectorate. They are not happy about Kosovar independence and by proxy, neither are the Russians. Remember that WWI originated as a dispute between Serbia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire and that Russia was quick to jump to the defence of Serbia at that time. Just something to keep in mind as I believe the dynamics are similar in this day and age.
The Russians, who as of late have been in a row with the EU/US will probably see this as another snub of their interests on the world stage and it may lead to an escalation of the conflict that has been slowly simmering for the past few years.
--------------------
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
|
They may indeed see it as a snub of their interests. Certainly an independent Kosovo is not in the interests of, and is probably directly opposed to the goals of Serbia.
But whether or not they wanted it to happen, or Serbia wanted to happen, or the E.U. wanted to happen the only salient fact is the Kosovoans (Kosovoites? Kosovoers? Kosovovivians?) wanted it to happen. As long as we are still in the business of promoting democracy across the globe I don't see how we can snub our noses in the face of one tiny and oppressed country deciding to throw off the shackles of a powerful neighbor.
And we won't. US recognition is expected to follow swiftly.
Russia will learn to deal with it. It is more or less a case of the opinion of the entire world against that of Serbia and Russia. The only part that could get dicey is situation in the northern part of the territory of the Kosovoan state. Many of the towns there are heavily Serb, and violence was already being reported there.
That could get ugly. Especially if Serbia decides to send a "relief" column into that area.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8036169 - 02/17/08 11:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Without question. To the Serbs, Kosovar independence means a loss of territory. Also the Russians don't like the looks of this Kosovar independence as it may set a precendent for the Chechnyans to make a grab for their independence as well. Both Serbia and Russia have long been in the business of suppressing independence-seeking ethnic groups within their borders in the name of maintaining their own territorial integrity. Another unsurprising supporter of Belgrade's position is China, who uncoincidentally is trying to suppress the independence movements of both Taiwan and Tibet. Also, not by coincidence, Taiwan was one of the first governments to congratulate the Kosovars on their independence: "[Taiwan] always supports sovereign countries' seeking democracy, sovereignty and independence through peaceful means." http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/080217-kosovo-independence
Quote:
The only part that could get dicey is situation in the northern part of the territory of the Kosovoan state. Many of the towns there are heavily Serb, and violence was already being reported there.
This is probably the biggest concern, Serbia could start eating away at the peripheries of other sovereign states including Kosovo and even Bosnia. Russian diplomats and Serbian politicians have dropped a few threats that they would retaliate against Kosovar independence by backing the independence of Serbian enclaves in the multi-ethnic state of Bosnia. If Bosnia were to be destabilised this could cause a very real and very explosive power vacuum in the Balkans and Bosnia could easily become the Balkan "powder keg" of the 21st century.
Check out this quote from Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov: "In the event that Kosovo unilaterally declares independence and that independence is recognized, this will not be without consequences...this will trigger a chain reaction in the Balkans and in other areas of the world." http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2007/12/10/kosovo-deadline-passes-making-independence-likely.html
Quote:
That could get ugly. Especially if Serbia decides to send a "relief" column into that area.
You said it. Hopefully those 16,000 UN peacekeepers can linger around to help protect the newly independent state from encroachment and until tension starts dying down a little bit.
Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/18/08 12:49 AM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8037391 - 02/18/08 10:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 01:59 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8037457 - 02/18/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I sincerely hope it works out......
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: lonestar2004]
#8037675 - 02/18/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
As predicted, the US and the major European powers have recognised Kosovo. Shall the shit hit the fan? Only time will tell...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7251359.stm
--------------------
|
Sage.Phish
Guerrilla Farmer



Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 598
Loc: City 17
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
|
|
To bad this is putting a strain on relations with Russia
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Sage.Phish]
#8038176 - 02/18/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Russia is putting strains on our relations with Russia.
--------------------
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8038292 - 02/18/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
“I don't want say anything that would offend anyone, but for 40 years northern Cyprus has practically existed as an independent state,” Putin said. “Why aren't you recognizing it? Aren't you ashamed, Europeans, for having such double standards for the same issues in different parts of the world?!” wondered Russian President.
“We have Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Trans-Dniester, existing as independent states. And all the time they keep saying Kosovo is "a special case". That's a lie, there are no special cases, and everyone knows it. It’s all the same, ethnic conflicts, crimes on both sides, de facto complete independence,” said Putin.
“We should formulate common principles to address these issues. Why do we promote separatism? Well, in Spain, people do not want to live in a single state, then support the secession there. For 400 years Great Britain has been fighting for its territorial integrity in respect to Northern Ireland. Why? Why don't you support that [secession]? We have to have common principles. If we act on the so-called political expediency, serving political interests of individual countries, we will destroy international law and the world's order,” stressed Putin.
Russian president reiterated that the small countries cannot feel safe in today's world, where their interests are so obviously not protected by the international law.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: lonestar2004]
#8038459 - 02/18/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Hey Europe I live in Texas. We would love to succeed from the Moonbats!
Could you help us out too!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
|
|
Your historical reference of the treatment of the Native Americans, is not complete. You surprisingly forgot the Spanish, and what they did to the Pueblo Indians along with the Dutch (who hired mercenaries for other tribes)....or is blood just on America's hands?
I am sure the above is a simple oversight, as you constantly make it an issue to depict historical events of other countries, on an equal footing of that of the USA.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (02/18/08 04:08 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8038753 - 02/18/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:00 PM)
|
johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: I know the history of the Western Hemisphere very well. I've never denied that the brutality & negative impacts of Spanish colonialists upon indigenous people were worse than that of the English colonialists (due primarily to it being practiced over larger & more populous areas), or that other European colonialist powers were also involved in its conquest. Spain has its own issues with Basque separatists today. If we were mostly Spanish citizens who paid taxes to the Spanish government, it would be a worthy topic of discussion & analogy regarding the situation in the Balkins, but since most of us are not, it is not.
omg, super comeback
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
What about the impressive history of indigenous brutality, murder and slavery. The list is endless. Admit it, you just hate whitey.
--------------------
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
|
|
Assuming, I am following your argument, in which you premise the relevance of historical wrongs of the USA, and compare that to current day revelations.....why did you compare the struggle of Turkey to current day Kosovo?
Are we not taxpayers there? Why is that comparison valid, while my reference to European colonialism is not?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8039385 - 02/18/08 06:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: What about the impressive history of indigenous brutality, murder and slavery. The list is endless. Admit it, you just hate whitey.
come off it, this has nothing to do w/ the topic (indigenous wrongs similar to those of foreigners)
are we buying into moral relativism now?
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: johnm214]
#8039464 - 02/18/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
E-P makes his entire argument about just about everything on that premise. Just thought I'd cram some of his own shit back at him.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8039522 - 02/18/08 06:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:01 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8039542 - 02/18/08 07:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:01 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8039573 - 02/18/08 07:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:01 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
It was for the OOOOOOIIIIILLLLLL.
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8039591 - 02/18/08 07:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
And to keep the Red Man down, of course.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8039695 - 02/18/08 07:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:02 PM)
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
why did you compare the struggle of Turkey to current day Kosovo?
To show that U.S. policy is motivated by its own military & economic self interests, not any of this nonsense about "freedom" & "human rights". Sure, countless others have done it throughout history & unfortunately will continue to do after the American empire collapses, but call it what it is instead of the nonsense that American politicians speak of.
How do you explain the billions upon billions of foreign aid dollars the USA gives to the world? I will cite Africa as a current example. What military and economic interests do we have there?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8039887 - 02/18/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:03 PM)
|
johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
|
Quote:
In March 1997, a joint poll by the Washington Post, Harvard University and the Kaiser Family Foundation asked Americans which area of federal expenditure they thought was the largest. Was it Social Security (which actually constituted about a quarter of the budget)? Medicare? Military spending? Sixty-four percent of respondents said it was foreign aid—when in reality foreign aid made up only about 1 percent of total outlays (Washington Post, 3/29/97)..
jesus fucking christ
how is this even possible?
Do these people not read the fucking newspaper or EVER watch news?
Umm... yeah...
the "social security crisis" only exists cuz we're giving too much money to Turkmenistan
This is really fucking unacceptable for a voting populace. I hope those people are the ones who don't vote...
|
The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
|
So what most nations dont donate jack shit, America is quite generous on foreign aid, too the point where it eeks the libertarian in me.
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#8040480 - 02/18/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
When someone says, as one of the crazies did above, that the United States donates less "as a product of its GDP", that is Anti-American speak for "They give more than any other nation."
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8040628 - 02/18/08 10:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:04 PM)
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
|
I didn't read the article. I was responding to your quote.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
|
|
Like I asked you before, what economic or imperialist motives does America have in Africa?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-02-17-bush-tanzania_N.htm
In regards to aid, what about the American people? What about the citizens that make up this world imperialist power you love to decry?
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp
Private aid/donation has been through charity of individual people and organizations though this of course can be weighted to certain interests and areas. Nonetheless, it is interesting to note for example, per latest estimates, Americans privately give at least $34 billion overseas—more than twice the US official foreign aid of $15 billion at that time:
International giving by US foundations: $1.5 billion per year Charitable giving by US businesses: $2.8 billion annually American NGOs: $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers. Religious overseas ministries: $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development. US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.3 billion Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $18 billion in 2000
Source: Dr. Carol Adelman, Aid and Comfort, Tech Central Station, 21 August 2002.
While Adelman admits that “there are no complete figures for international private giving” she still says that Americans are “clearly the most generous on earth in public—but especially in private—giving”. Hence these numbers and claims may be taken with caution, but even then, these are high numbers.
Adelman, Director for The Center for Global Prosperity, from the Hudson Institute published its first Index of Global Philanthropy in 2006, which contained updated numbers from those stated above. The total of US private giving, since Adelman’s previous report, had increased to a massive $71 billion in 2004. Page 16 of their report breaks it down as follows:
International giving by US foundations: $3.4 billion Charitable giving by US businesses: $4.9 billion American NGOs: $9.7 Religious overseas ministries: $4.5 US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.7 billion Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $47 billion.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You like to look at the USA, in the most deplorable of lights as possible. The fact remains, that the USA gives the most total dollars of aid to countries, then any other country in the world. Sure, you can do the whole "proportional" or "percentage" argument. The fact still remains that no other country gives more total dollars then America, If memory serves me right, the economy of Sweden, doesn't have as much of an impact on the world, compared to ours.....so why the praise for their aid? Just because its tabulated and calcualted on their GNI?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8041957 - 02/19/08 09:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Good Call.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8041993 - 02/19/08 09:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Americans are “clearly the most generous on earth in public—but especially in private—giving”. .
The total of US private giving, since Adelman’s previous report, had increased to a massive $71 billion in 2004.
International giving by US foundations: $3.4 billion Charitable giving by US businesses: $4.9 billion American NGOs: $9.7 Religious overseas ministries: $4.5 US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.7 billion Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $47 billion.
WOW makes me PROUD to be an American.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: lonestar2004]
#8042046 - 02/19/08 09:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I like it too.
I love how every country thinks Americans are stupid, lazy, and uncaring.
But we personally give more than any of them.
What gives, World?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
Arp
roving mycophagist



Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8042054 - 02/19/08 09:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
You have to take the amount of citizens in consideration. If you do that, the US is not #1 anymore. At least not from older debates here where these statistics has been displayed and researched, from what I can recall.
|
Arp
roving mycophagist



Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Arp]
#8042058 - 02/19/08 09:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|

You get numbers like these when you measure per capita.
Edited by Arp (02/19/08 10:02 AM)
|
Arp
roving mycophagist



Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Arp]
#8042073 - 02/19/08 09:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
 And here is where most of the money goes. Clearly projects like Israel and Iraq.
Americans are #1 when it comes to private donations, but they still do not donate more per capita with those numbers included.
Edited by Arp (02/19/08 10:03 AM)
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8042283 - 02/19/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I'm gonna throw a wrench in here. The US certainly does give a great deal of aid but which countries are the recipients of this aid? Are they needy African countries or are they strategic allies of the US? Let's take a look at the statistics:
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf
Top 7 recipients of aid from fiscal year 2004 (from page 13 of this USAID report):
1) Iraq ($18.44 billion) 2) Israel ($2.62 billion) 3) Egypt ($1.87 billion) 3) Afghanistan ($1.77 billion) 4) Columbia ($0.57 billion) 5) Jordan ($0.56 billion) 6) Pakistan ($0.39 billion) 7) Liberia ($0.21 billion)
It takes 7 countries down to hit what the UN would call a least-developed country (LDC) or a country in most desperate need of foreign aid that is also not a strategic ally of ours (not counting Afghanistan). Look at the money that country receives compared to Israel and Iraq. Not making any judgments, just tossing some data out there.
And from 1994:
1) Israel (by far) 2) Egypt 3) Russia 4) India 5) Ukraine 6) Ethiopia
Here it takes 6 countries down to hit an LDC.
|
afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Sage.Phish]
#8042323 - 02/19/08 10:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sage.Phish said: To bad this is putting a strain on relations with Russia
People aren't looking upstream enough.
They wave American flags so clearly US intervention is good, right?
What people fail to realize is what motivated our original intervention and what, subsequently, motivated us to swiftly voice recognition of an independent Kosovo.
If you believe this is all out of benevolent generosity on the part of the US, you are kidding yourself. Kosovo was the indirect beneficiary of some serious political gerrymandering by the US in an effort to compromise Russia's control on South Eastern Europe and the Dead Sea regions as part of what was first intended to further fracture and weaken or former enemy and is now an effort to retaliate against Putin and his apparent intentions for a second cold war.
Glom on to it with your arguments for foreign intervention and American benevolence, but you entirely miss the point in doing so.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: afoaf]
#8042335 - 02/19/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Are you talking about in 1999?
You honestly believe the slaughter of the Albanians by the Serbs was just some kind of abstract action taking place outside of the context of the NATO bombing?
Maybe I misunderstand your point. I've been doing that quite a bit lately.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8042403 - 02/19/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
they are clearly related.
but there are multiple levels of motivation besides saving the poor albanian muslims from the murderous christian serbs.
the fact remains that there were plenty of causes that the UN could have taken up during this time, not the least of which was Rwanda, but there was and still is great value in facilitating the fracturing of so many of those eastern block nations.
it foments hope in the hearts of the secessionist and bleeds the mother countries of a little bit more resource and strength.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: afoaf]
#8042417 - 02/19/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I think it has more to do with the fact that one is in Europe and one is in Africa. Western nations have always shown a proclivity towards intervening in humanitarian crisis' in European countries.
Whether due to skin colors or common cultural heritages or what have you I don't know.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
Edited by Madtowntripper (02/20/08 01:32 PM)
|
Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8043227 - 02/19/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Madtowntripper said: When someone says, as one of the crazies did above, that the United States donates less "as a product of its GDP", that is Anti-American speak for "They give more than any other nation."
All the same, money you don't have. Money borrowed from countries who are the worst human rights offenders.
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Minstrel]
#8043265 - 02/19/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
So if a bad country wants to give you money to give to another country, you shouldn't take it?
What is your train of logic there?
Since China abuses people, we shouldn't take their money to give to those who are abused?
What purpose does that serve?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8043281 - 02/19/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I think it's a fair comment.
Why do we spend these billions of dollars in the face of towering national debt?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Minstrel]
#8043283 - 02/19/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If you believe this is all out of benevolent generosity on the part of the US, you are kidding yourself.
I'd have to agree with you on this but in the case of Kosovo, US interests happened to intersect with a very noble cause though this is often not the case.
Even when the US gives foreign aid it is often a quid pro quo arrangement with certain strings attached rather than a solely philanthropic undertaking.
--------------------
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: afoaf]
#8043300 - 02/19/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
afoaf said: I think it's a fair comment.
Why do we spend these billions of dollars in the face of towering national debt?
Because we can.
That debt is not a big deal, as I think most economists in the world would agree.
If we spend wisely, which the current administration has been loathe to do there is enough money to go around. We have plenty of cash to take care of our needs here in America and help out the world.
I am a bleeding-heart liberal, but I would rather see the money go to helping out refugees in Africa than paying back debt we owe to France from our Revolutionary War.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
|
Quote:
So if a bad country wants to give you money to give to another country, you shouldn't take it?
Since China abuses people, we shouldn't take their money to give to those who are abused?
Well, the US did refuse emergency aid from Venezuela and Cuba during Hurricane Katrina because of their poor standing in Washington. I don't necessarily agree with this decision since the US needed all the help it could get at the time but alas... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/07/venezuela.hurricanekatrina
--------------------
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
|
I'm aware there are exceptions.
But in general...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Arp]
#8044906 - 02/19/08 09:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Same argument.
The United States level of generosity is somehow linked to the amount of its populace?
Simply because other countries have less people then us, our total contributions are minimized, because of our bigger population?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8045043 - 02/19/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
trying to equate total contributions with 'most generous' is not really fair, in my opinion.
you measure as a percentage of GNI or GDP to get an idea of the relativity....it allows you to compare apples to apples.
if I make 50,000 and donate 500$ annually and you compare that to someone in Sweden who makes 25,000 and donates 400$, sure you could say that I'm more generous because I've given more money, but the fact is that the Swede has given more as a percentage of their total income which represents a larger personal sacrifice and, in my mind, a more generous gesture.
you're not automatically better just because you're vastly larger.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8045057 - 02/19/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: The United States level of generosity is somehow linked to the amount of its populace?
Simply because other countries have less people then us, our total contributions are minimized, because of our bigger population?
Kind of. We are still the most generous country on the planet in terms of how much money we donate in foreign aid yet going on this statistic alone is misleading. A more realistic depiction of how generous US foreign aid is would be to look at how much is given as a total percent of GNP.
From the United Nations Human Development Report (2005):

As you can see, Norway is the most generous country giving 0.9% of its GNP in foreign aid while the US gives just under 0.2% of its GNP. If you also look at who is receiving the US' foreign aid (see my other posts in this thread) a large chunk of the money the US is giving is going to countries like Iraq, Israel, Egypt and Colombia rather than Least-Developed Countries.
I'm not trying to take away from what the US does but there sure is room for improvement. As part of the UN Millennium Development Goals in 2000 all developed countries pledged to give at least 0.7% of their GNP to poor countries. At present the only countries to have kept their word are Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands.
--------------------
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
|
NATO should have never intervened and the US certainly should have had no part in it. The interests of the US that it served where minute and did nothing to outweigh Serbia's authority.
At least this is good press and those people view America favorably for now.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: d33p]
#8047269 - 02/20/08 01:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
So you're one of those strict libertarians that can see no need to interfere in a country even when one population is slaughtering a nother one in the name of nationalism or religion?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8048010 - 02/20/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Madtowntripper said: So you're one of those strict libertarians that can see no need to interfere in a country even when one population is slaughtering a nother one in the name of nationalism or religion?
How about instead of throwing around moral ideas, you take a look at history? You have lost the respect of the world, and no longer have any right to call yourselves the champions of justice.
America, even with all your supposed good intentions, is a world-wide terrorist factory.
|
SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Minstrel]
#8048129 - 02/20/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
yeah stopping genocide makes us the bad guys. 
we do some really fucked up shit but we also contribute 57% of the entire world's food aid.
invading Iraq was a bad move but you can be thankful we aren't napalming sections of Baghdad at any time we feel threatened. we are fighting a very limited war in Iraq compared to America's earlier conflicts since it became a world hegemon.
stopping the genocide in Serbia was a good action on our part.
watching as Saddam killed thousands of Kurds with our technology makes us look stupid. invading Iraq in 2003 to avenge the genocide makes us look like we rode the short bus to school. sitting by idly while thousands are slaughtered in Sudan makes us look uncaring. sitting by and watching Rwanda happen makes us the bad guys. stopping the genocide in Serbia and trying Milosevic serves justice imo. over the past 20 or so years history shows that when we stop a genocide we look good but when we sit idly by we look impotent/stupid and uncaring.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8049093 - 02/20/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
For just slaughter? Definitely not. For genocide? Maybe, but it still depends on other factors. Anyway, Serbia's actions were neither and it was not carried out in the name of nationalism or religion. However, those factors would have certainly influenced some people.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
afoaf
CEO DBK?



Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SlashOZ]
#8049398 - 02/20/08 09:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
again, you're assuming that when we have intervened it has been primarily in an effort to 'do the right thing'.
I believe that the appearance of benevolence is just a lucky side effect for actions that were primarily motivated by political and financial gain.
we didn't invade iraq in 2003 to 'avenge the genocide'.
look at your list...if we really are the global caregivers why do I count more cases of inaction than truly empathetic and moral action?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: afoaf]
#8049457 - 02/20/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I believe that the appearance of benevolence is just a lucky side effect for actions that were primarily motivated by political and financial gain.
QFT. Machiavelli said it best: It is important to appear as the lion while acting as a fox.
--------------------
Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/20/08 09:41 PM)
|
SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
|
|
i believe my point was to show how when the U.S./world does nothing but sit around on the sidelines while a genocide happens we end up looking like fools a few years down the road.
to whoever said that the serbia bombing were just to gain politically or financially. uh, what was the gain there man? also why would the timing of bill's actions in the late 90's to make political/monitary gains just happen to be during the exact same time milosevic was killing thousands. it is sooooo coincidental. errr not. our actions there were primarily motivated in keeping the region stable and stopping ethinic cleansing.
to the fool who said serbia was not a genocide: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/26/news/hague.php
uh yeah the world court agrees it was a genocide so i mean what other proof do you need? btw if you need more then you are lying to yourself about what a genocide truelly is.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SlashOZ]
#8050828 - 02/21/08 08:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SlashOZ said: i believe my point was to show how when the U.S./world does nothing but sit around on the sidelines while a genocide happens we end up looking like fools a few years down the road.
to whoever said that the serbia bombing were just to gain politically or financially. uh, what was the gain there man? also why would the timing of bill's actions in the late 90's to make political/monitary gains just happen to be during the exact same time milosevic was killing thousands. it is sooooo coincidental. errr not. our actions there were primarily motivated in keeping the region stable and stopping ethinic cleansing.
to the fool who said serbia was not a genocide: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/26/news/hague.php
uh yeah the world court agrees it was a genocide so i mean what other proof do you need? btw if you need more then you are lying to yourself about what a genocide truelly is.
Are you talking to me?
Quote:
For just slaughter? Definitely not. For genocide? Maybe, but it still depends on other factors. Anyway, Serbia's actions were neither
Quoted from your article Quote:
The court found no convincing evidence that any Serbian leader or organ of the state of Serbia had the deliberate intent to "destroy in whole or in part" the Bosnian Muslim population, which is key to the definition of genocide.
Aside from this, trying to destroy a part of a population cannot be considered genocide. As well, motive of the aggressor plays a large role in determining whether a conflict is genocide. Genocide was not the motive. I disagree with the kangaroo court that there was a genocide.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8051793 - 02/21/08 01:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:05 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8051834 - 02/21/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:05 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
Really? I'm still waiting for the people of those two nations to ask us to leave. I suppose you think the police are committing genocide every time they shoot a gun toting thug. Because murderers are people too.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8051860 - 02/21/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:05 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8051867 - 02/21/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
we need to get the fuck out of there now! why are we there? this is Europe's problem!
then we can start bombing ISRAEL so we can have a Palestinian state!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
Edited by lonestar2004 (02/21/08 01:27 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SlashOZ]
#8051887 - 02/21/08 01:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:06 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
|
"Operation Stained Dress”
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
Arp
roving mycophagist



Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: lonestar2004]
#8051937 - 02/21/08 01:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
was used by the Clinton administration nonetheless.
Supposedly to draw attention from the Monica Lewinsky bullocks drama staged by the slime machine?
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
So the question that is always out there for you is this. "In your mind, should the US ever intervene anywhere?" I can't tell whether you're bitching that we do or bitching that we don't. I can tell that you are perennially bitching. I'll leave it to you to figure out what I think that makes you.
As to Kosovo, we seem to be in quite a minor role relative to NATO and the EU. Although I'm sure you can tell us how many innocent civilians were murdered by American troops there. Roughly.
--------------------
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8051997 - 02/21/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Nato killed more civilians then Milosevic....
NATO killed 500 civilians in its 78-day aerial bombardment of Yugoslavia
The charges against Milosevic involve the murder of 391 individuals.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans16.html
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
Arp
roving mycophagist



Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8052004 - 02/21/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
we seem to be in quite a minor role relative to NATO and the EU
depends on who's dropping the bombs and creating mayhem.
Not forgetting that the US is probably the most vocal member of NATO.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Arp]
#8052024 - 02/21/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Well? Who's dropping bombs and creating mayhem?
In re Milosovic, beats me how many people he killed but I think prosecuting him for 391 doesn't mean or imply that that was all he killed. Maybe that was just one town. It only takes one conviction to fry his ass.
--------------------
|
Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8052117 - 02/21/08 02:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Nato raids Kosovo Islamic charity
Nato-led peacekeepers in Kosovo have detained several people after searching the offices of an American-based Islamic charity suspected of supporting international terrorism.
In a statement, the Nato-led force (K-For) and United Nations police said they conducted searches at two offices belonging to the charity, the Global Relief Foundation.
They said the foundation "is suspected of supporting worldwide terrorist activities and is allegedly involved in planning attacks against targets in the US and Europe".
The foundation - which raises about $5m a year for projects, mainly in Muslim countries - has denied being involved in any illegal activities.
The Nato statement said the raids - in the capital Pristina and at Djakovica - took place after they received "credible intelligence information".
A quantity of documents and equipment from the offices was also seized.
Under scrutiny
The statement said the investigation was continuing.
The Global Relief Foundation is based in Chicago but has a European headquarters in Brussels.
It was among several Islamic aid groups put under scrutiny by the US Government after the 11 September attacks on New York and Washington.
Kosovo has been under UN administration since Serb forces were driven out by Nato's 1999 bombing campaign.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1712216.stm
|
SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
#8052451 - 02/21/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
so what if melosivic was only charged for 391 murders personally. he was still convicted of the crime in the end. not even Saddam was convicted of all his crimes before he was executed and he was not tried for all of the murders he personally sanctioned, not even close to the actual figures. there were far more than 391 people killed before NATO moved in. the point still remains that they were the leaders of nations responsible for mass murders.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
|
|
Quote:
The citizens & governments of just about all other of the wealthiest 20-25 nations are more generous.
Link?
|
Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Redstorm]
#8053339 - 02/21/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
The citizens & governments of just about all other of the wealthiest 20-25 nations are more generous.
Link?
Check out earlier in the thread.
--------------------
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
|
|
Thanks, I missed that.
I still think the idea of criticizing the US for giving a smaller percentage of their GDP is disingenuous at best. Regardless of how large the US economy is, we still give more than any other country.
Thinking that we should be giving a certain percentage leads to the thinking that foreign countries are somehow owed foreign aid, which is what I don't like. Charitable giving should be a voluntary gift, not something like tipping a waitress.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Redstorm]
#8053566 - 02/21/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:07 PM)
|
SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
|
|
300 million american citizens, roughly
over 6 billion people in the world.
57% of all food aid comes from one country, guess which one kiddies?
thats right its the biggest asshole ever, u.s.!
i'd say per person the united states is kicking the shit out of basically everyone else, combined.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SlashOZ]
#8053969 - 02/21/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:07 PM)
|
skydog
Coffee & Blunts



Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 2,486
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
|
|
Quote:
Don't you think it would be more stabilizing & sustainable to local & regional economies (not to mention more practical in meeting the direct needs of the local populace) for farmers in poor areas to grow essential food crops for people as locally as possible instead of growing coffee, coca, opium & bananas for export? Why don't they? Do you think that certain policies influence this? Do you think that certain nations want to hinder cultivation of grains elsewhere so that they are almost certain to have a market for their heavily government-subsidized surplus grains?
Perhaps it is the economic principle of comparative advantage?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
Coffee, coca, opium, bananas, etc. are all more cheaply and efficiently grown in places other that the US, so we don't really bother to grow them. Likewise, the US can produce some goods more easily and efficiently than other countries. Trade creates value, etc.
Therefore, economically speaking, it makes sense to operate this way. However, I understand what you're saying. I suppose it could only happen if the world would disregard the economic benefits and consider the welfare of those third world nations?
--------------------

|
Visionary Tools



Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8056993 - 02/22/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I was looking at some picture galleries today which are full of pictures of people in downtown Pristina, the capital of Kosovo waving American flags all over the place. They love us there.
Hey! Just like those Iraqi's and pulling down Saddam's statue. Oh yes, the Kosovans love US.
http://origin1.contracostatimes.com/nationandworld/ci_8334776?nclick_check=1
Hah, the article describes them as football hooligans. No, if they were, then the violence would be after a football match.
Quote:
There were fears that Serbian soccer hooligans, the same ones who attacked the U.S. and other embassies in Belgrade, were among those on the buses. Some of the hooligans apparently managed to evade the blockade, leading the clashes at the bridge.
Kosovo Serbs have been venting their anger over Kosovo's statehood by destroying U.N. and NATO property, setting off hand grenades and staging noisy rallies.
--------------------
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
|
|
Of course the Serbs from Kosova are mad.
The Serbs are the same people who were killing the Albanians in Kosovo in 1999! Of course they don't want to see the part of Serbia that they live in secede from their former country.
The fact remains that the vast majority of the people in the new land, the Albanians that they we stepped in to protect in '99 seem to have a good opinion of the United States.
Is that really so hard for you to accept?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8057239 - 02/22/08 04:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, someone usually will not burn the flag of a country who is making what they want possible. This doesn't mean that the US is doing anything good or noble which should be admired, chances are high that the US is just being its blundering dumb old self again.
Not to say feel bad about your country, but the issue of Kosovo is an unsound place to look for pride.
Edited by Disco Cat (02/22/08 05:15 PM)
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
|
|
Your reply to my question in Africa is full of conjecture.By the way,its America's fault about the debt of Africa? Your right, no other power such as Belgium or the Portuguese did anything to cause any strife there.........
If America gives money to Africa its wrong, if it doesn't, its still wrong.......but I have to consider the source.
If America didn't have humanitarian motives in Africa, why are we giving them money? I guess its some huge conspiracy to "keep'em down". I am also sure you could point out the huge econmoic gain from this aid, we are currently providing them.
Also, what other country does more for Africa then the USA?? Please enlighten me. I'm sure you will be able to cite foreign governments actually canceling the debt of that nation proactively.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: skydog]
#8057393 - 02/22/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:08 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
#8057457 - 02/22/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:09 PM)
|
Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
|
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8058948 - 02/23/08 12:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
|
|