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Offlinelonestar2004
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8041993 - 02/19/08 09:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:


Americans are “clearly the most generous on earth in public—but especially in private—giving”. .

The total of US private giving, since Adelman’s previous report, had increased to a massive $71 billion in 2004.

International giving by US foundations: $3.4 billion
Charitable giving by US businesses: $4.9 billion
American NGOs: $9.7
Religious overseas ministries: $4.5
US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.7 billion
Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $47 billion.









WOW makes me PROUD to be an American.:grin:


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8042046 - 02/19/08 09:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I like it too.

I love how every country thinks Americans are stupid, lazy, and uncaring.

But we personally give more than any of them.

What gives, World?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleArp
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042054 - 02/19/08 09:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You have to take the amount of citizens in consideration. If you do that, the US is not #1 anymore. At least not from older debates here where these statistics has been displayed and researched, from what I can recall.

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InvisibleArp
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Arp]
    #8042058 - 02/19/08 09:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



You get numbers like these when you measure per capita.

Edited by Arp (02/19/08 10:02 AM)

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InvisibleArp
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Arp]
    #8042073 - 02/19/08 09:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)


And here is where most of the money goes. Clearly projects like Israel and Iraq.

Americans are #1 when it comes to private donations, but they still do not donate more per capita with those numbers included.

Edited by Arp (02/19/08 10:03 AM)

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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042283 - 02/19/08 10:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm gonna throw a wrench in here. The US certainly does give a great deal of aid but which countries are the recipients of this aid? Are they needy African countries or are they strategic allies of the US? Let's take a look at the statistics:

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf

Top 7 recipients of aid from fiscal year 2004 (from page 13 of this USAID report):

1) Iraq ($18.44 billion)
2) Israel ($2.62 billion)
3) Egypt ($1.87 billion)
3) Afghanistan ($1.77 billion)
4) Columbia ($0.57 billion)
5) Jordan ($0.56 billion)
6) Pakistan ($0.39 billion)
7) Liberia ($0.21 billion)

It takes 7 countries down to hit what the UN would call a least-developed country (LDC) or a country in most desperate need of foreign aid that is also not a strategic ally of ours (not counting Afghanistan). Look at the money that country receives compared to Israel and Iraq. Not making any judgments, just tossing some data out there.

And from 1994:

1) Israel (by far)
2) Egypt
3) Russia
4) India
5) Ukraine
6) Ethiopia

Here it takes 6 countries down to hit an LDC.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Sage.Phish]
    #8042323 - 02/19/08 10:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sage.Phish said:
To bad this is putting a strain on relations with Russia




People aren't looking upstream enough.

They wave American flags so clearly US intervention is good, right?

What people fail to realize is what motivated our original intervention
and what, subsequently, motivated us to swiftly voice recognition of an
independent Kosovo.

If you believe this is all out of benevolent generosity on the part of
the US, you are kidding yourself. Kosovo was the indirect beneficiary of
some serious political gerrymandering by the US in an effort to compromise
Russia's control on South Eastern Europe and the Dead Sea regions as part
of what was first intended to further fracture and weaken or former enemy
and is now an effort to retaliate against Putin and his apparent intentions
for a second cold war.

Glom on to it with your arguments for foreign intervention and American
benevolence, but you entirely miss the point in doing so.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: afoaf]
    #8042335 - 02/19/08 10:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Are you talking about in 1999?

You honestly believe the slaughter of the Albanians by the Serbs was just some kind of abstract action taking place outside of the context of the NATO bombing?

Maybe I misunderstand your point. I've been doing that quite a bit lately.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisibleafoaf
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042403 - 02/19/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

they are clearly related.

but there are multiple levels of motivation besides saving the poor albanian
muslims from the murderous christian serbs.

the fact remains that there were plenty of causes that the UN could have
taken up during this time, not the least of which was Rwanda, but there
was and still is great value in facilitating the fracturing of so many
of those eastern block nations.

it foments hope in the hearts of the secessionist and bleeds the mother
countries of a little bit more resource and strength.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: afoaf]
    #8042417 - 02/19/08 11:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it has more to do with the fact that one is in Europe and one is in Africa. Western nations have always shown a proclivity towards intervening in humanitarian crisis' in European countries.

Whether due to skin colors or common cultural heritages or what have you I don't know.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Edited by Madtowntripper (02/20/08 01:32 PM)

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8043227 - 02/19/08 03:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
When someone says, as one of the crazies did above, that the United States donates less "as a product of its GDP", that is Anti-American speak for "They give more than any other nation."




All the same, money you don't have. Money borrowed from countries who are the worst human rights offenders.


--------------------

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8043265 - 02/19/08 03:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So if a bad country wants to give you money to give to another country, you shouldn't take it?

What is your train of logic there?

Since China abuses people, we shouldn't take their money to give to those who are abused?

What purpose does that serve?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisibleafoaf
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8043281 - 02/19/08 03:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's a fair comment.

Why do we spend these billions of dollars in the face of towering
national debt?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Minstrel]
    #8043283 - 02/19/08 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you believe this is all out of benevolent generosity on the part of
the US, you are kidding yourself.




I'd have to agree with you on this but in the case of Kosovo, US interests happened to intersect with a very noble cause though this is often not the case.

Even when the US gives foreign aid it is often a quid pro quo arrangement with certain strings attached rather than a solely philanthropic undertaking.


--------------------

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: afoaf]
    #8043300 - 02/19/08 03:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
I think it's a fair comment.

Why do we spend these billions of dollars in the face of towering
national debt?




Because we can.

That debt is not a big deal, as I think most economists in the world would agree.

If we spend wisely, which the current administration has been loathe to do there is enough money to go around. We have plenty of cash to take care of our needs here in America and help out the world.

I am a bleeding-heart liberal, but I would rather see the money go to helping out refugees in Africa than paying back debt we owe to France from our Revolutionary War.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8043311 - 02/19/08 03:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So if a bad country wants to give you money to give to another country, you shouldn't take it?

Since China abuses people, we shouldn't take their money to give to those who are abused?




Well, the US did refuse emergency aid from Venezuela and Cuba during Hurricane Katrina because of their poor standing in Washington. I don't necessarily agree with this decision since the US needed all the help it could get at the time but alas... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/07/venezuela.hurricanekatrina


--------------------

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8043317 - 02/19/08 03:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm aware there are exceptions.

But in general...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Arp]
    #8044906 - 02/19/08 09:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Same argument.


The United States level of generosity is somehow linked to the amount of its populace?


Simply because other countries have less people then us, our total contributions are minimized, because of our bigger population?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8045043 - 02/19/08 09:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

trying to equate total contributions with 'most generous' is not
really fair, in my opinion.

you measure as a percentage of GNI or GDP to get an idea of
the relativity....it allows you to compare apples to apples.

if I make 50,000 and donate 500$ annually and you compare that
to someone in Sweden who makes 25,000 and donates 400$, sure
you could say that I'm more generous because I've given more
money, but the fact is that the Swede has given more as a
percentage of their total income which represents a larger
personal sacrifice and, in my mind, a more generous gesture.

you're not automatically better just because you're vastly
larger.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8045057 - 02/19/08 09:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
The United States level of generosity is somehow linked to the amount of its populace?

Simply because other countries have less people then us, our total contributions are minimized, because of our bigger population?




Kind of. We are still the most generous country on the planet in terms of how much money we donate in foreign aid yet going on this statistic alone is misleading. A more realistic depiction of how generous US foreign aid is would be to look at how much is given as a total percent of GNP.

From the United Nations Human Development Report (2005):



As you can see, Norway is the most generous country giving 0.9% of its GNP in foreign aid while the US gives just under 0.2% of its GNP. If you also look at who is receiving the US' foreign aid (see my other posts in this thread) a large chunk of the money the US is giving is going to countries like Iraq, Israel, Egypt and Colombia rather than Least-Developed Countries.

I'm not trying to take away from what the US does but there sure is room for improvement. As part of the UN Millennium Development Goals in 2000 all developed countries pledged to give at least 0.7% of their GNP to poor countries. At present the only countries to have kept their word are Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands.


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