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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Well, They Love Us In Kosovo...
    #8034836 - 02/17/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone who pays any attention at all to global politics has probably heard that the tiny country of Kosovo declared it's independence from Serbia today. Kosovo was, for the young or ignorant, the country whose nacent independence movement in 1999 drew the wrath of the Serbian government and led the the US-NATO airstrikes of that year that forced the Serbs to pull back.

I was looking at some picture galleries today which are full of pictures of people in downtown Pristina, the capital of Kosovo waving American flags all over the place. They love us there.

Let this be a signal to those who say that force is inherently evil and the United States is the bane of the world.

Things are not as simple as you think.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineSeraph in Blue
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Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 198
Last seen: 16 years, 5 days
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8034887 - 02/17/08 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I saw a news clip on that. Good stuff. I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy. Nothing is so clear cut, black and white for so many people to be so polarized on the issue. Surprisingly to some, the U.S. sure does alot of good for alot of global communities.

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OfflineKombat Frank
GREAT JOB!
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Registered: 02/15/08
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Seraph in Blue]
    #8034933 - 02/17/08 02:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seraph in Blue said:
I saw a news clip on that. Good stuff. I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy. Nothing is so clear cut, black and white for so many people to be so polarized on the issue. Surprisingly to some, the U.S. sure does alot of good for alot of global communities.




what types of things do we do?


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ego tripping at the gates of hell

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Seraph in Blue]
    #8034954 - 02/17/08 02:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seraph in Blue said:
I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy.




Don't keep your mouth shut. Educate the stupid cocksuckers. You may become as hated as I am but at least you'll have done the right thing.


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Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8035230 - 02/17/08 03:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah i saw that.


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OfflineSeraph in Blue
Stranger

Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 198
Last seen: 16 years, 5 days
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Kombat Frank]
    #8035259 - 02/17/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kombat Frank said:
Quote:

Seraph in Blue said:
I saw a news clip on that. Good stuff. I always keep my mouth shut when people badmouth U.S. foreign policy. Nothing is so clear cut, black and white for so many people to be so polarized on the issue. Surprisingly to some, the U.S. sure does alot of good for alot of global communities.




what types of things do we do?




Well for one thing, the MAJORITY of American citizens and the government is very receptive and accepting of immigrants coming in from other countries escaping political persecution or tyranical regimes, I know this well, I being one of them. Most other nations seem to be much to sympathetic to despotism, it's the European way. So alot of us are very thankful that at least the United States has retained some of its status as a sanctuary for the sick, tired, and the poor.

It also should be noted that the United States government gives more monetary aid, and to more countries in the world than any other one country. While anyone can argue that there are alterior motivations, political agendas, etc behind every foreign policy action the U.S. takes, seemingly benevolent or not, it can't be argued that there are countless children in the third world better off because our Government or average citizens stepped in. All arguments for or against altruism aside, I think what this country has done for many communities, wether its donating crops to African nations or accepting immigrants who have nowhere else to turn around the world is noble and to be commended.

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Registered: 08/13/03
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Seraph in Blue]
    #8035980 - 02/17/08 11:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Id like to know how many Iraqi refugees we have accepted? Even the US is afraid to put a large amount of Iraqis into the US from the quagmire they started.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8036017 - 02/17/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Where are all the pacifists/isolationsists?

Nothing to say about this one today?

Ron Paul supporters? Ron Paul would never have stood for an action like this. It is anathema to everything he stands for.

Clinton bashers? I suppose you believe Clinton just did this to draw attention away from his own problems?

Anti-UN hacks? Is this the exception to the UN never working, rather than the rule?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets
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Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8036087 - 02/17/08 11:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This is truly a great sign to see that region becoming more democratic and autonomous and it is a victory for self-determination. Looks like the final, logical conclusion of the Balkanisation that began following the disintegration of Yugoslavia. It's also a very very nice sign to see the American flag being waved in the streets of Kosovo and is certainly a sight for sore eyes.

However, I wonder what sort of implications this will have for Western-Russian relations now that the US and EU have extended recognition. Serbia is a staunch ally of the Russians and has been a traditional ally since before World War I to such a degree that it may even be considered a Russian protectorate. They are not happy about Kosovar independence and by proxy, neither are the Russians. Remember that WWI originated as a dispute between Serbia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire and that Russia was quick to jump to the defence of Serbia at that time. Just something to keep in mind as I believe the dynamics are similar in this day and age.

The Russians, who as of late have been in a row with the EU/US will probably see this as another snub of their interests on the world stage and it may lead to an escalation of the conflict that has been slowly simmering for the past few years.


--------------------

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8036109 - 02/17/08 11:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

They may indeed see it as a snub of their interests. Certainly an independent Kosovo is not in the interests of, and is probably directly opposed to the goals of Serbia.

But whether or not they wanted it to happen, or Serbia wanted to happen, or the E.U. wanted to happen the only salient fact is the Kosovoans (Kosovoites? Kosovoers? Kosovovivians?) wanted it to happen. As long as we are still in the business of promoting democracy across the globe I don't see how we can snub our noses in the face of one tiny and oppressed country deciding to throw off the shackles of a powerful neighbor.

And we won't. US recognition is expected to follow swiftly.

Russia will learn to deal with it. It is more or less a case of the opinion of the entire world against that of Serbia and Russia. The only part that could get dicey is situation in the northern part of the territory of the Kosovoan state. Many of the towns there are heavily Serb, and violence was already being reported there.

That could get ugly. Especially if Serbia decides to send a "relief" column into that area.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets
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Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8036169 - 02/17/08 11:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Without question. To the Serbs, Kosovar independence means a loss of territory. Also the Russians don't like the looks of this Kosovar independence as it may set a precendent for the Chechnyans to make a grab for their independence as well. Both Serbia and Russia have long been in the business of suppressing independence-seeking ethnic groups within their borders in the name of maintaining their own territorial integrity. Another unsurprising supporter of Belgrade's position is China, who uncoincidentally is trying to suppress the independence movements of both Taiwan and Tibet. Also, not by coincidence, Taiwan was one of the first governments to congratulate the Kosovars on their independence: "[Taiwan] always supports sovereign countries' seeking democracy, sovereignty and independence through peaceful means." http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/080217-kosovo-independence

Quote:

The only part that could get dicey is situation in the northern part of the territory of the Kosovoan state. Many of the towns there are heavily Serb, and violence was already being reported there.




This is probably the biggest concern, Serbia could start eating away at the peripheries of other sovereign states including Kosovo and even Bosnia. Russian diplomats and Serbian politicians have dropped a few threats that they would retaliate against Kosovar independence by backing the independence of Serbian enclaves in the multi-ethnic state of Bosnia. If Bosnia were to be destabilised this could cause a very real and very explosive power vacuum in the Balkans and Bosnia could easily become the Balkan "powder keg" of the 21st century.

Check out this quote from Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov: "In the event that Kosovo unilaterally declares independence and that independence is recognized, this will not be without consequences...this will trigger a chain reaction in the Balkans and in other areas of the world." http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2007/12/10/kosovo-deadline-passes-making-independence-likely.html

Quote:

That could get ugly. Especially if Serbia decides to send a "relief" column into that area.




You said it. Hopefully those 16,000 UN peacekeepers can linger around to help protect the newly independent state from encroachment and until tension starts dying down a little bit.

Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/18/08 12:49 AM)

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Registered: 10/04/05
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8037391 - 02/18/08 10:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 01:59 PM)

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8037457 - 02/18/08 11:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I sincerely hope it works out......


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Registered: 01/25/07
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8037675 - 02/18/08 12:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

As predicted, the US and the major European powers have recognised Kosovo. Shall the shit hit the fan? Only time will tell...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7251359.stm


--------------------

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OfflineSage.Phish
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Registered: 02/17/08
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8037825 - 02/18/08 12:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

To bad this is putting a strain on relations with Russia

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: Sage.Phish]
    #8038176 - 02/18/08 02:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Russia is putting strains on our relations with Russia.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8038292 - 02/18/08 02:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

“I don't want say anything that would offend anyone, but for 40 years northern Cyprus has practically existed as an independent state,” Putin said. “Why aren't you recognizing it? Aren't you ashamed, Europeans, for having such double standards for the same issues in different parts of the world?!” wondered Russian President.

“We have Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Trans-Dniester, existing as independent states. And all the time they keep saying Kosovo is "a special case". That's a lie, there are no special cases, and everyone knows it. It’s all the same, ethnic conflicts, crimes on both sides, de facto complete independence,” said Putin.


“We should formulate common principles to address these issues. Why do we promote separatism? Well, in Spain, people do not want to live in a single state, then support the secession there. For 400 years Great Britain has been fighting for its territorial integrity in respect to Northern Ireland. Why? Why don't you support that [secession]? We have to have common principles. If we act on the so-called political expediency, serving political interests of individual countries, we will destroy international law and the world's order,” stressed Putin.

Russian president reiterated that the small countries cannot feel safe in today's world, where their interests are so obviously not protected by the international law.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8038459 - 02/18/08 03:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Europe I live in Texas. We would love to succeed from the Moonbats!

Could you help us out too!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8038677 - 02/18/08 04:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Your historical reference of the treatment of the Native Americans, is not complete. You surprisingly forgot the Spanish, and what they did to the Pueblo Indians along with the Dutch (who hired mercenaries for other tribes)....or is blood just on America's hands?


I am sure the above is a simple oversight, as you constantly make it an issue to depict historical events of other countries, on an equal footing of that of the USA.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/18/08 04:08 PM)

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Well, They Love Us In Kosovo... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #8038753 - 02/18/08 04:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 02:00 PM)

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