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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Having Faith is for the weak-minded
#8034451 - 02/17/08 12:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Now I am not talking about ordinary faith such as that the sun will rise tomorrow or that no one will run the red stop light.
Nor am I talking about, oh say, following a fitness program wherein you have faith that if followed, you WILL get results.
I am talking about faith as it is applied to religious and spiritual ideas.
Basically when one has R/S faith, it means they adopted an idea and will hold onto it like a pitbull to someone's pant cuffs no matter what new ideas or facts are presented. One encounters this form of blind stubborness here regularly.
It is not a strength at all, but a sign of weakness and unchangability. It is stagnation and intellectual death.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


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I think faith is necessary at certain phases in life, to keep one motivated to make progress as a being. Not faith in God or the Church, just faith that existence is worth the suffering. When one becomes more comfortable with groundlessness, maybe faith can be abandoned.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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backfromthedead
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Lion]
#8034578 - 02/17/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think having faith sets you up for special experiences somehow.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
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i have faith that you will grow in wisdom and intelligence, OC.
does this make me weak-minded?
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Lion]
#8034588 - 02/17/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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this idea is weak IMO... and is eroding itself in a smelly bath of ego-centrism and close-mindedness.
I do get where you're coming from; however, I think that this is backwards thinking...
To me having faith is like being in tune with the rich and colourful power of All-That-Is. We cannot strattle this power, but we can be a part of it, and flow... hmmm... how good it feels to believe!
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Ginseng1]
#8034685 - 02/17/08 01:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Note to audience: Let's see if we can get a straight answer here.
The Heaven's Gate followers that believed their dead bodies would transport to the mothership hiding behind the comet were following their 'faith'.
A. This was a positive thing that we should all try to emulate.
B. This was totally fucking retarded.
You may choose only one.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Ginseng1]
#8034690 - 02/17/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
this idea is weak IMO... and is eroding itself in a smelly bath of ego-centrism and close-mindedness.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



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It might have been totally retarded. Who knows? Maybe they have achieved their goals in the after life?
But what the hell does that have to do with me or anybody else that has faith? The heaven's gate faith may have been misguided, but that does not define me, or anybody else that has faith.
What about all these schools shooting in the U.S? Their belief systems have lead to the deaths of innocent people and themselves.
So why must you you generalize everything?
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Note to audience: Let's see if we can get a straight answer here.
The Heaven's Gate followers that believed their dead bodies would transport to the mothership hiding behind the comet were following their 'faith'.
A. This was a positive thing that we should all try to emulate.
B. This was totally fucking retarded.
You may choose only one.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. practiced nonviolence, despited the violent tactics of many of his opponents, because he had faith in the essential goodness of human nature; he had faith that his efforts would yield positive progress.
A. This was a positive thing that we should all try to emulate.
B. This was totally fucking retarded.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Leon, excellent argument ! Orgone, sid they really believe their 'bodies' would leave the planet ? Else, I would have to look it up if their way would be an adequate way to liberate one's soul in a positive or constructive way into another 'realm'. Of course I doubt this. As far as I know, there is no (ancient) hint that suicide liberates the soul in a positive way. All hints point the other way.
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Raven0us
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Lion]
#8034765 - 02/17/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Faith can lead to a complete lack of logic and common sense. In this case it seems to be a very bad thing. Faith can also lead to a hope of a better future, life, etc... in this case it seems to be a very good thing.
It is what it is, Sort of like anything in life can be used for good or bad.
-------------------- ~Raven0us
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Xeny


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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Raven0us]
#8034863 - 02/17/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Faith for me is nothing more then mere existance, the belief you're alive is enough to set off the chainreactions, even rereactions, to commence on life. The part that faith plays is nothing more then thinking '0' or '1'. It is the choice you make, to live or to die? In your case, to believe or not to believe. Now don't go thinking you'll die if you dont believe in whatso ever. I'll guess you'll know when your death has arrived upon your brilliant soul.
That's my opinion
-------------------- Ik hou van je While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Xeny]
#8035333 - 02/17/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think faith is good when you don't let it convince you of stupid things. For example, I have faith that the universe is fundamentally good. This may change in my lifetime, I don't know, but having faith in a general goodness makes life sunnier and enables me to smile on rather than fear the unknown.
I don't have SUCH faith in the goodness of the universe that I'd jump off a skyscraper believing I'd be cushioned and cradled by fluffy clouds. This is because I'm a somewhat rational human being. Heaven's Gate was not populated by people like you and me.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Now I am not talking about ordinary faith such as that the sun will rise tomorrow or that no one will run the red stop light.
Nor am I talking about, oh say, following a fitness program wherein you have faith that if followed, you WILL get results.
I am talking about faith as it is applied to religious and spiritual ideas.
Basically when one has R/S faith, it means they adopted an idea and will hold onto it like a pitbull to someone's pant cuffs no matter what new ideas or facts are presented. One encounters this form of blind stubborness here regularly.
It is not a strength at all, but a sign of weakness and unchangability. It is stagnation and intellectual death.
agree but being weakminded is a natural condition for humanity so at times we all need a little faith.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Lion]
#8035492 - 02/17/08 09:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Your example makes my point. Faith by itself is meaningless. It is the OBJECT of faith and the MEANS OF ARRIVING AT SUCH FAITH that has import.
MLK used logic in that he recognized that violence begets violence. He understood that the path to change lie elsewhere.
HG members did not use logic at all. There was no basis that suicide would lead to a higher plane of existence alongside our alien brothers.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Lion]
#8035499 - 02/17/08 09:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. practiced nonviolence, despited the violent tactics of many of his opponents, because he had faith in the essential goodness of human nature; he had faith that his efforts would yield positive progress.
I think King was wrong. Humans aren't essentially good or bad but both. It's natures way.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Icelander]
#8035520 - 02/17/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have faith that you are weak-minded.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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I just reported you for flaming.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Icelander]
#8035684 - 02/17/08 09:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The sooner I get banned, the sooner I can get a life.
Thank you for helping me over my addiction.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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But who can help me? Will no loving mod ban the Iceman?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Icelander]
#8035790 - 02/17/08 10:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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They fear your vengeful wrath. Who would dare face your mighty axe? This I ax you.
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Diploid
Cuban



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I'd ban both of you for derailing another perfectly good thread if you two weren't so entertaining.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Diploid]
#8037265 - 02/18/08 10:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You can't handle the ban.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Boots
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Icelander]
#8037561 - 02/18/08 11:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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As soon as you realize you know nothing, you are the smartest man alive.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Boots]
#8037743 - 02/18/08 12:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Often it's enough to learning to know just oneself.
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: BlueCoyote]
#8037822 - 02/18/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
faith is believing what you know ain't so.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Bridgeburner]
#8037901 - 02/18/08 01:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Faith is believing (in) what one doesn't know (yet). [Fullstop] It hasn't to be untrue by definition.
edit:hehe, damned, think exceeded upload limit. 'll try 'gain 'morro..
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/18/08 02:39 PM)
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mushbaby
woodswalker




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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I am talking about faith as it is applied to religious and spiritual ideas.
Basically when one has R/S faith, it means they adopted an idea and will hold onto it like a pitbull to someone's pant cuffs no matter what new ideas or facts are presented. One encounters this form of blind stubborness here regularly.
It is not a strength at all, but a sign of weakness and unchangability. It is stagnation and intellectual death.
As more of an observer than a poster here (until recently at least) I would like to put forth the possibility that the ones with faith aren't the only stubborn posters here.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: mushbaby]
#8038220 - 02/18/08 02:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Darlin', I have given 'the believers' thousands of opportunities to knock me from my lofty perch (as in my recent remote viewing challenge and elsewhere). Hasn't happened yet. Each failure only reinforces my position. Hard to change that until I am proven wrong.
To me stubborness means clinging to a position EVEN WHEN CONTRARY EVIDENCE is presented.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (02/18/08 02:48 PM)
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mushbaby
woodswalker




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I'm not going to let you draw me into this argument with you.
I'm not going to do it!
But ( ) people not completing your challenges does not mean there is nothing in this world/universe besides what you can prove.
Damn it OC. I just can't help myself.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: mushbaby]
#8038325 - 02/18/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not everything can be proven, but when people make statements and cannot back them up, how is it stubborn for me to persist with a position that works and has yet to be shown false?
Help me to understand.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: mushbaby] 1
#8038354 - 02/18/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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True faith is only believed when one has experienced the truth so there is no doubt in his or her mind. thats what i feel, i didnt beleive until i experienced.
Now i realise i was weak minded before not after, i agree that people with blind faith can possibly be weak minded/easily led.
But remember no evidence by anyone can be provided to proove that which cannot be prooved in the first place, thats why its called faith.
Science can and never will proove or disproove the divine. NEVER! as it is impure, changing, impermanent, attached to an outcome of an experiment or theory.
All religeon fundamentally is is realisation of ultimate truth, and they try spread it to the masses through religeon. They all have the same fundamentals. I used to have the same exact views as you on religeon/faith until i experienced. I was always the last on to preach!
Experience and faith is all there is, theres is no proof and never ever will be, for, or against it.
If you were talking about blind faith, faith upon hearing and not experience i would agree with you.
But those that experience what faith is placed in, know.
I am a beleiver in buddhism/Taoist philosophy and always be, i love science aswell, multidimensions, string theorys, atoms, etc all tie in with what i beleive they dont go agaisnt it for a second.
NOTHING goes against what i beleive, not even your point of view in disagreement, its still going in perfect flow with what i believe thats whats so great about it!!!
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8038363 - 02/18/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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As "faith" is a word with several different definitions, this whole argument is defined by semantics and is inherently meaningless.
Just thought I'd drop that in.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (02/18/08 03:02 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8038383 - 02/18/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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But those that experience what faith is placed in, know.
The way a fundamentalist 'knows'...
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Sage.Phish
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8038393 - 02/18/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think orgone is talking about the sort faith that anne coulter and FOX news repreasent not the type where you go and find your inner self through a process of religious practices and meditation/prayer
em i right?
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Sage.Phish]
#8038405 - 02/18/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't think what he is saying is that nuanced.
Or maybe it's the language that is too simple.
Maybe it's both.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (02/18/08 03:09 PM)
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Sage.Phish]
#8038457 - 02/18/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sage.Phish said: I think orgone is talking about the sort faith that anne coulter and FOX news repreasent not the type where you go and find your inner self through a process of religious practices and meditation/prayer
em i right?
nope, he seems to beleive there is no innerself, just the selfish ego, that is all there is that exists.
thats what he conveys anyway, he may be just testing us?
is SEEMS OC only beleives all there is is what can be prooved by science, so if he was born a thousand years ago, the world is all there is to him...just world and sky, and sum twinkly wittle lights in the sky at nighttime.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8038463 - 02/18/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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"Science can and never will proove or disproove the divine. NEVER!" That's pure bllshit ! They won't discredit eachother !
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer



Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 527
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Orgone,
If faith is for the weak-minded, then would that not make you weak minded as well?
It seems you label faith as a negative because you think you don't have faith in any sort of belief system (at least that is the implication I get from your original post). I once scoffed at those who believed in things/ideas that could not be proven scientifically, until I realized that I was putting my faith in the status quo, in something I was conditioned to believe was true from a young age.
Orgone, what you have done here with your post is express your faith in the beliefs of the majority of the scientific community and/or a materialist viewpoint (that that which you cannot see must not exist). Have you ever considered that science and/or the materialist point of view is just another belief system which may not be capable of explaining certain facets of the reality in which we live?
Faith is a tool which can be used in positive (having faith in yourself to succeed in life) or negative (mass suicide to reach another level of reality) ways. To believe in nothing is still a belief.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: TacticalBongRip]
#8038486 - 02/18/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Exactly he has his faith in nonfaith 
blue cyote explain plz i dont understand, neither can discredit each other yes, thats my point.
they are both fantastic but will never ever discredit each other.
so science can never proove the divine, as the divine cannot proove itself! just as the divine cannot disproove science
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: TacticalBongRip]
#8038518 - 02/18/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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I think its past someones bedtime...
but seriously im tired too, neither one of us can come round to each others thinking as we both beleive what we beleive, just know i once didnt beleive in any divine existence too, the thought would make me laugh.
it amazing how everything changes impermanently, all i beleive is theres something else which escapes this change.
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Sage.Phish
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: TacticalBongRip]
#8038530 - 02/18/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
TacticalBongRip said: Orgone,
If faith is for the weak-minded, then would that not make you weak minded as well?
It seems you label faith as a negative because you think you don't have faith in any sort of belief system (at least that is the implication I get from your original post).
he has faith in his belief that all people who have faith are simple minded, he can not prove that everyone with religious, spiritual faith are simple minded. so he ether has alot of faith or is simple minded, or both
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8038534 - 02/18/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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As they are only exclusive ín their regarding context (science/philosophy=how, {religion}/spirituality=why), they're well fit to supplement eachother.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: BlueCoyote]
#8038550 - 02/18/08 03:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok cool, and both can incorporate how & why, to be honest the huge advances in science i wouldnt be suprised, i mean it IS in our nature to evolve to the divine so why not through scientific evolution as well as spiritual experiential evolution.
your completely right BlueCoyote
SUMONE GET STEPHEN HAWKING SUM SHROOMS PRONTO!!!
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8038580 - 02/18/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
just know i once didnt beleive in any divine existence too, the thought would make me laugh.
Here we finally get to the crux of the matter.
Once you were certain there was no divinity.
Now you are certain there is divinity.
One or the other of your positions was totally flawed. Yet your certainty has no affect on what is or is not. It is all mind-stuff.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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I agree its all mind stuff.
My faith in there being no divinity was based in having no experience of it.
"Why should i beleive what the buddha or jesus says they're just humans like me"
But after the experience of the divinity i am now a believer.
The fact im even saying this is quite funny, just a few years ago i was swaying one way or the other, i never even really beleived in religeous experiences, i thought they were just nutty old women in church going "praise tha lord!!!" and letting snakes bite them and stuff like that!
But now i get it (not the snake thing!) can see why you cant be happy for me because you think my happyness is based in fake faith, but its my hapyness before that was placed in fakeness.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8038710 - 02/18/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You were certain of your position before, but now this is the 'real' certainty', eh?
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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I wasnt certain beyond a doubt, i am now.
Theres no much more we can say, all i can tell you is what i believe, all you can tell me is what you beleive in, all i know of you is what you dont beleive in, im sure you believe in something, yourself if nothing else.
That used to be my motto actually and still is in a way
"i dont believe in god, i beleive in myself"
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8039557 - 02/18/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Off topic: Why does everyone think there is something wrong with the ego and being ego-driven?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Redstorm]
#8039634 - 02/18/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't think everyone thinks there is something wrong with the ego. I think it is more of a concern with letting oneself become too egotistical or self-important as that would get in the way of learning.
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mycophagist
Stranger

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 2
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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so did those guys get on the mothership?
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: mycophagist]
#8041541 - 02/19/08 03:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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theres nothing wrong with the ego, except it can makes us do stupid things, the less ego based we are, the closer you are to the true self (these are the buddhas teachings) while in human form some form of ego will always be present, the less, the closer to the true self.
the self we tend to think of is impermanent, its always changing, so as long as we keep changing for the better it will at least be a heathy ego, evolving instead sitting stagnant in a pool of fakeself.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Chronic7]
#8042115 - 02/19/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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except it can makes us do stupid things,
There is no it, there is only you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: Icelander]
#8042250 - 02/19/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You're only saying that because your not schizo...
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backfromthedead
Activated


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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What about schizos??
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Having Faith is for the weak-minded [Re: backfromthedead]
#8042282 - 02/19/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Cheese-flavored Schizos are my fave.
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backfromthedead
Activated


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Urine flavored skeptics are my grave.
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