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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Fact vs. Opinion
    #8033941 - 02/17/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Not sure why some people struggle with this, but let's try to clarify.

We shall start with some examples.

1. (You choose: Obama or McCain) will make the better American president.

This is an opinion (even if you chose neither or another candidate). Why?

a. Because the future is not yet here.

b. Because "better" is a vague metric that could be applied in nearly limitless ways.

McCain voted for the Iraq War. Obama voted against the Iraq War.

These are both factual statements. They are unabiguous and are a matter of record.

Let's try another in which fact and opinion is comingled and presented as fact.

1. Timothy Leary was a visionary who freed a whole generation by turning them onto LSD.

2. Timothy Leary was a very dangerous man for turning a whole generation onto LSD.

Now recently on M&P I presented a fact, "Author Such & Such falsified his academic record" and was threatened with a ban for going against the wishes of the OP.

This is just ridiculuous and (opinion) seems to me to be fear-based. I can think of no other reason (my limitation) for one to NOT want to learn more about a favorite author.

This is not the first time. Folks got angry when I pointed out that Alan Watts had a drinking problem (fact) and that Lilly was a self-admitted ketamine junkie (fact).

Getting angry at me for the facts of another's life is just denial of reality. Suppression does not changes the past (fact) and is quite childish (opinion).


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Invisiblemushbaby
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8034023 - 02/17/08 09:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Actually Obama was not in the Senate at the time of the vote. Which I find horribly convenient. Yes he opposed it verbally, but not on record.


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OfflineKombat Frank
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: mushbaby]
    #8034050 - 02/17/08 09:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushbaby said:
Actually Obama was not in the Senate at the time of the vote. Which I find horribly convenient. Yes he opposed it verbally, but not on record.




leaving himself open to flip??


--------------------
ego tripping at the gates of hell


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Kombat Frank]
    #8034260 - 02/17/08 11:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Can anyone stay on track? This was not meant to be political.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8034320 - 02/17/08 11:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think that your Leary example was the best for your question of how to understand these events. Weather or not he was dangerous or a liberator may have been a matter of perception. My approach to it is that he destroyed a generation that had revolutionary potential by introducing them en mass to a strange hallucinogen that had not been comprehensively tested. I am jaded against him because I cannot speed read anymore after taking LSD the first time. I still feel different from the substance and regret taking it and I can count the number of times I've done it on one hand.

Either way it cannot be denied that Tim Leary was acting with what he perceived to be the common good in mind. He really thought that LSD was the key to getting people to drop out of the rat race and take human values seriously. His opinion was that LSD was good and at the time little facts about LSD were available to the public. He kinda abused his authority as a university professor IMO when he did this and did it so publicly, cause if he was just some guy not so many people would have believed him but because of his position too many people took him seriously.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8034456 - 02/17/08 12:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

When does something become fact?

Seems to me that everything is opinion. A fact is just an opinion that appears more reliable.

You could say its a fact that we are alive but what if we actually weren't? What if we are beings that are attached to computers like in the Matrix?

Everybody interprets their surroundings the way they want to or the way they believe things to be. These interpretations are vast and vary hugely from individual to individual.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8034471 - 02/17/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seems to me that everything is opinion.




That is mere opinion and not a fact. What would you wager me that I cannot come up with a single non-arbitrary fact?


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Invisiblemushbaby
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8034484 - 02/17/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Can anyone stay on track? This was not meant to be political.




You were defining "fact" I was pointing out the irony of using a non-fact as a fact when defining fact.

The political opinion was just an added bonus.  Kind of like the cherry on top of the sundae.  :crazy2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: mushbaby]
    #8034504 - 02/17/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I trust your knowledge on this subject and I chose a poor example. Beat the dead horsey. :whip:

There is an actual POINT to this thread in how often people mix up the two.


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Invisiblemushbaby
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8034512 - 02/17/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:spank:  I like this one better.  :tongue2:


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8034521 - 02/17/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am of the opinion that there are no facts. Nothing can be proven to be real for certain.

A fact is just what is believed to be true therefore a fact IS an opinion. Just an opinion that is generally accepted by the majority to be actuality.

The problem with any fact stems from the basic assumption that anything is real at all.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8034570 - 02/17/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

it is a fact that a pencil is pencil. it is what it is. but do i know what a pencil really is based on my conception of it? do i truly really know what it is, and what it is composed of?

what is happening, am i looking at a pencil for what it is or is it a program that i am seeing, that is being triggered from my observation and memory of it?

maybe there is more to fact than what meats the eye?


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: deranger]
    #8034782 - 02/17/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Fact is described as being true reality. Yet nobody knows what that is.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8035650 - 02/17/08 09:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Humble lurker said:
I am of the opinion that there are no facts. Nothing can be proven to be real for certain.




Huh....?
Is it a fact or opinion that I just quoted what you said....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8035672 - 02/17/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

and that Lilly was a self-admitted ketamine junkie (fact).

I see this as a good thing.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8036394 - 02/18/08 01:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I trust your knowledge on this subject and I chose a poor example. Beat the dead horsey. :whip:

There is an actual POINT to this thread in how often people mix up the two.




Strange, I thought it was a standard affair to stick with one fact, or contribution of limited scope, ad nausem throughout a thread regardless of the general theme or point of the thread. :smirk:

The ironing is delicious. :yesnod:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8036410 - 02/18/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
The ironing is delicious. :yesnod:




No.
What's delicious is your tongue!


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8036455 - 02/18/08 01:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My tongue is delicious from having tasted the ironing. :smirk:

Perhaps I'll find something to iron with my tongue... :strokebeard:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8036457 - 02/18/08 01:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Oh? :smirk:
You realize that I can hold you captive and do whatever I please to you? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8036466 - 02/18/08 01:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You're going to get us in trouble again. :razz:

:nono:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8036474 - 02/18/08 02:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Really?
I didn't know you were SUCH a fearsome little bunny :smirk:
But that's even better for me. :naughty:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisiblemushbaby
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8036666 - 02/18/08 05:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And I get accused of derailing this thread?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: mushbaby]
    #8036670 - 02/18/08 05:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: mushbaby]
    #8036701 - 02/18/08 05:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushbaby said:
And I get accused of derailing this thread?




You should be ashamed. :mad:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8037521 - 02/18/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Facts are always contextual. The context lies outside one's head.
Opinions are always contextual, too. Their context lies within the head.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8038378 - 02/18/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

Humble lurker said:
I am of the opinion that there are no facts. Nothing can be proven to be real for certain.




Huh....?
Is it a fact or opinion that I just quoted what you said....?


>^;;^<




That depends if you quoting is true reality or not. I cannot prove either way.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8039062 - 02/18/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Humble lurker said:
Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

Humble lurker said:
I am of the opinion that there are no facts.  Nothing can be proven to be real for certain.




Huh....?
Is it a fact or opinion that I just quoted what you said....?


>^;;^<




That depends if you quoting is true reality or not.  I cannot prove either way.




Don't you have to prove that there is another reality before you can say that this one isn't the "true reality"....?
This is the reality that I quoted you in.....    :smirk:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8042675 - 02/19/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Think of it this way though. If a radio wasn't invented then how would you know if radio waves existed?

I cannot receive other realities or even much of what is within this assumed reality!

Based on this knowledge it would be assuming to think what we humans perceive is true complete reality.


How can I be sure that you did quote me at all? I cannot, nobody can. We can only pretend to be convinced this is reality.

By your logic, if you tell me a coke is a pepsi then I have to believe your coke is a pepsi even though if I knew everything I would know it was a lie?


Is a "burden of proof" argument even rational in a debate of true reality?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8042684 - 02/19/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

How can I be sure that you did quote me at all? I cannot, nobody can. We can only pretend to be convinced this is reality.




That is so deep. Nothing quite as mind-boggling as 'stoner' philosophy. :rolleyes:


--------------------


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8042706 - 02/19/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ad hom, eh?

Good last resort when you have no argument to debate with or just wish to demean a poster for no reason other than to build your own perception of reality.

I'm not a stoner. :sorry:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8042753 - 02/19/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

How can I be sure that you did quote me at all?




Because he just quoted you. That is not debate nor philosophy, it is just plain old nonsense.


--------------------


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8043164 - 02/19/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To claim to completely understand what reality is would be to claim to be God.

My point is simply that we know very little of what reality is.

As I don't claim to be God, I shall not pass judgment on the actual nature of reality. I can only state that nobody knows for definite what reality is.

If you think this is non-sense then please let us know what reality is, I'm sure everyone is keen to hear.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8043459 - 02/19/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

How could anyone possibly ad hom you? Quotes and words have no reality according to your expressed views (except when you want them to?) Try to be consistent in your illusions.


--------------------


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: Humble lurker]
    #8044376 - 02/19/08 07:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Humble lurker said:
By your logic, if you tell me a coke is a pepsi then I have to believe your coke is a pepsi even though if I knew everything I would know it was a lie?




This example is very different then mine....
You don't have to know everything about reality to see that I quoted you....

In your example, I would only tell you that if; there was only one Coke and one Pepsi, and you wanted the Pepsi....
I don't like Coke....  But I would also tell you the truth after my Pepsi was gone.....  :tongue:



Quote:

Humble lurker said:
Is a "burden of proof" argument even rational in a debate of true reality?




There is only one reality that I am accustomed to....
The perception of the reality can be altered, but as far as I have seen, it is only the perception that is altered....
I understand the working concept of the life of a 2D "flatlander" person Vs. the life of a 3D person.... 
But being 3D myself, how would I be able to comprehend more than the 3D....?
Just as the 2D flatlander can't conceive the 3D realm....
Why....?   
2D man may be immersed in the 3D reality, but it is inconceivable and unbeknownst to him because it is not the true reality he resides in....


Edit:
To understand (in case you don't) the 2D "Flatlander" thing, it is like a person in a flat drawing, a plane....
Like the surface of a calm pool of water would be the only reality a "flatlander" would know....
As a 3D person passed his hand thru the surface of the water,
the flatlander would only see the flat cross-sections of the hand in 2D as it passed thru the plane....

If the water froze, the Flatlander would become an Icelander....    :tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Edited by PhanTomCat (02/19/08 08:07 PM)


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InvisibleHumble lurker
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Re: Fact vs. Opinion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8046855 - 02/20/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nobody knows true reality because we humans don't understand reality.  We have a few observations on what we see happening.

Ignore my point.

Illusion?  :rotfl:


The end.


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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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