Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Boomr Bag   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
OfflineTyz
Strangerthanfiction
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 49
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
WBS v. PF tek
    #8027369 - 02/15/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I've been using pf tek traditional cake {brf.,verm.} for many years now always had good results. after seeing some pics of doc34 i'm jealous. should i switch from pf to wbs or try casing crumbled cakes? i'd be reluctant to switch i must say i'm comfortable with my pf. responses from the expirienced would be greatly appreciated.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleim_on_a_boat
Stranger

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Tyz]
    #8027406 - 02/15/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes. it's much better.. g2g owns..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineitsallnines
mush-head
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 385
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Tyz]
    #8027407 - 02/15/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

RR stated in one of my threads the WBS is prolly contamed, being that it comes from china. RR recommended rye berries. that is what i am going with. YMMV.


--------------------
by their fruits ye shall know them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleshroober
Myco Junkie


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 879
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: itsallnines]
    #8027593 - 02/15/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

itsallnines said:
RR stated in one of my threads the WBS is prolly contamed, being that it comes from china. RR recommended rye berries. that is what i am going with. YMMV.




there are so many inaccuracies in that statement i don't know where to begin


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineitsallnines
mush-head
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 385
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: shroober]
    #8027617 - 02/15/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shroober said:
Quote:

itsallnines said:
RR stated in one of my threads the WBS is prolly contamed, being that it comes from china. RR recommended rye berries. that is what i am going with. YMMV.




there are so many inaccuracies in that statement i don't know where to begin




here ya go:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7947801#7947801


--------------------
by their fruits ye shall know them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTyz
Strangerthanfiction
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 49
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: itsallnines]
    #8033572 - 02/17/08 02:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

thank you much for all the support.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTyz
Strangerthanfiction
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 49
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Tyz]
    #8033573 - 02/17/08 02:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

whats g2g krobotnik ?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleFooMan
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: itsallnines]
    #8033634 - 02/17/08 03:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

itsallnines said:
Quote:

shroober said:
Quote:

itsallnines said:
RR stated in one of my threads the WBS is prolly contamed, being that it comes from china.  RR recommended rye berries.  that is what i am going with.  YMMV.




there are so many inaccuracies in that statement i don't know where to begin




here ya go:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7947801#7947801




Well if RR said it, it MUST be true! :smirk:

Chinese "contams" aside, I'll stick to WBS. It's much cheaper and IMO, much easier to use than rye.


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebmiles
artist
Male


Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2,299
Loc: on the left side
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Tyz]
    #8033644 - 02/17/08 03:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tyz said:
whats g2g krobotnik ?



g2g = grain to grain transfer


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleauweia
mountain biking
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: FooMan]
    #8033958 - 02/17/08 08:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Quote:

itsallnines said:
Quote:

shroober said:
Quote:

itsallnines said:
RR stated in one of my threads the WBS is prolly contamed, being that it comes from china.  RR recommended rye berries.  that is what i am going with.  YMMV.




there are so many inaccuracies in that statement i don't know where to begin




here ya go:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7947801#7947801




Well if RR said it, it MUST be true! :smirk:

Chinese "contams" aside, I'll stick to WBS. It's much cheaper and IMO, much easier to use than rye.




Using other peoples images is also cheaper,I see

it would be believable if you didn't take credit for other peoples work



image is simply flipped from my original



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWolfgang
Male User Gallery
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: auweia]
    #8034033 - 02/17/08 09:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My God you're going to post that in every thread he's in aren't you. :smirk:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineitsallnines
mush-head
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 385
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: FooMan]
    #8034524 - 02/17/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Quote:

itsallnines said:
Quote:

shroober said:
Quote:

itsallnines said:
RR stated in one of my threads the WBS is prolly contamed, being that it comes from china.  RR recommended rye berries.  that is what i am going with.  YMMV.




there are so many inaccuracies in that statement i don't know where to begin




here ya go:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7947801#7947801




Well if RR said it, it MUST be true! :smirk:

Chinese "contams" aside, I'll stick to WBS. It's much cheaper and IMO, much easier to use than rye.


i get organic rye at 'wild oats' here for something like 99 cents a pound, bulk.  how much cheaper does it need to be?

as for quoting RR, he does know more than me, to be sure.  and, being that the process is nearly identical, i don't know how WBS could be easier, YMMV. 

besides, its all in good fun.  being that i have had zero success, lately, maybe i should just shut my trap!


--------------------
by their fruits ye shall know them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWolfgang
Male User Gallery
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: auweia]
    #8034537 - 02/17/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Did he just put your pic in his sig or did he claim it as his own?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebmiles
artist
Male


Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2,299
Loc: on the left side
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Wolfgang]
    #8035025 - 02/17/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

lolz


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: bmiles]
    #8035276 - 02/17/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

WBS is not organic and does not have nutes for use as a substrate

Rye can be organic and can also be straight cased without a bulk sub


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleim_on_a_boat
Stranger

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8035451 - 02/17/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

are you serious?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWolfgang
Male User Gallery
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8035465 - 02/17/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
WBS is not organic and does not have nutes for use as a substrate

Rye can be organic and can also be straight cased without a bulk sub




WBS has plenty of nutes for use as a substrate and can be cased without a bulk substrate just like rye berries.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebmiles
artist
Male


Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2,299
Loc: on the left side
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Wolfgang]
    #8035477 - 02/17/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

WBS is synthetic, such as plastic.  :wink:
birds love that shit.


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


Edited by bmiles (02/17/08 09:10 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #8035496 - 02/17/08 09:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Using other peoples images is also cheaper,I see

it would be believable if you didn't take credit for other peoples work



Fucking stop already!! This is quite possibly the most retarded fight I have ever seen. How fucking important can your precious photo possibly be? Do you stand to lose millions? Is your artistic integrity compromised? Or is this all some pitifully petty bullshit you have decided to inject into every goddamned thread in the Shroomery? I suppose the only thing more annoying than him using your photo, or whatever is going on, is having to hear about it in every fucking active thread here. Jesus tap-dancing Christ, just fucking stop.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


Edited by thedefone (02/17/08 09:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWolfgang
Male User Gallery
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: bmiles]
    #8035505 - 02/17/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: thedefone]
    #8035511 - 02/17/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry about the flame, but come on already.

Quote:

WBS has plenty of nutes for use as a substrate and can be cased without a bulk substrate just like rye berries.




It was my understanding that WBS doesn't case well, as it doesn't hold moisture as well as rye does.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWolfgang
Male User Gallery
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: thedefone]
    #8035526 - 02/17/08 09:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I always added it to manure I didn't consider a straight wbs casing. Yeah that would probably not hold moisture too well.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinechucklehead
GeneticThrowback toNeanderthal
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 1,338
Loc: Chucky Cheese
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Wolfgang]
    #8035804 - 02/17/08 10:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I have been experimenting on and off for about a year now with WBS. What I've found is you can case it without spawning it to bulk but it doesn't work as well. As noted above it doesn't hold moisture well. So you get small mushrooms unless you use a very deep layer of WBS. Also you have to keep your humidity pretty high. Here is an example of roughly 1.5 inches of Mexican Dutch King on WBS that was simply cased with MGMC/Verm.

MDK likes to flush pretty much continuously so at some point you have start looking at how small your mushrooms are getting and dunk your WBS.

Dunking straight cased WBS is a royal pain in the butt if you have a thin substrate layer. It likes to crumble easily. Which is one of the reasons it's so desirable as a spawn material. It breaks up easily and small so it makes thousands of inoculation points. Anyway I figured out that it's actually better to let the stuff crumble a bit, or even entirely while it's soaking. That seems to help re hydration a lot. Subsequent flushes from crumbled WBS have been larger (more fruits and larger fruits) than those dunked and not crumbled. The mycelium is very resilient and reforms a WBS cake quickly. I should note that I do not make much effort at removing the old casing from the crumbled WBS that is soaking. I just let it mix in. I believe it adds to the moisture content and helps the later flushes. I do however put fresh casing on top after draining the WBS and placing it back in a container. I don't wait for the WBS to form up the cake again either I just case it immediately.

I hinted above that deeper substrates lead to bigger fruits. Granted these are different substrains but I think you'll get the idea.

This is Costa Rica with I think 4 or 5 quarts of WBS and cased with MGMC.


This is 7 quarts of B+ on WBS.


I do not recommend using a straight WBS depth of an inch or less without putting some form of moisture reservoir at the bottom of the container such as 1/2 inch of moistened verm. That works much much better. I have forgotten this step a couple times and seen very dismal results.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebmiles
artist
Male


Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2,299
Loc: on the left side
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: chucklehead]
    #8035827 - 02/17/08 10:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

^ damn, thats some very helpful info you got there sir.


--------------------
Never go with a hippy to a second location.


Edited by bmiles (02/17/08 10:29 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinechucklehead
GeneticThrowback toNeanderthal
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 1,338
Loc: Chucky Cheese
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: bmiles]
    #8035907 - 02/17/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks!  The Shroomery community has been good to me.  I'm more than happy to help if I can.  And now that I'm feeling the good karma I think it's time to blaze. :thumbup:
:gethigh:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Wolfgang]
    #8036056 - 02/17/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yea I don't know what I was thinking, I was confusing them with sunflower seeds, so your right, sorry. It's been an off day for me.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


Edited by ScavengerType (02/17/08 11:31 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTyz
Strangerthanfiction
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 49
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Wolfgang]
    #8036174 - 02/18/08 12:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

there are some very nice nuggets of info there. thanx again

if i understand correctly casing for wbs cakes would be best off supplemented with verm. mixed in. and a healthy layer of wet verm. on the bottom. how do we feel about a small amount of perlite mixed in the casing any attempts or experience with this type of thing?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineitsallnines
mush-head
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 385
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Tyz]
    #8036193 - 02/18/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

perlite doesn't really HOLD water, water just coats it. not sure if it would hurt to have perlite in the casing, but i doubt it would help.


--------------------
by their fruits ye shall know them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinexaxphaanes
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 2,988
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: itsallnines]
    #8036449 - 02/18/08 01:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

sometimes i use perlite to fluff up my casing mix if i run out of other things works fine.


--------------------
"Anything i say is fictional"
  what you should look for in manure


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCryogenicz
what?
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 2,421
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #8036477 - 02/18/08 02:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Personally, I like Rye.

Rye is a great for spawning and fruiting right off of it.

-Graham


--------------------
www.MycoPath.com
Mushroom Spawn, Cultures, Fungi Bags, Casings, Master Grain Jars, Bags for In-vitro, Laboratory supplies, and much more!
Mushroom Supplies. Fast Turnaround Times. Great Service.
orders@mycopath.com
enter code shroomery for 10% off product.

www.FungiForum.com


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleim_on_a_boat
Stranger

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: Tyz]
    #8037843 - 02/18/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tyz said:
there are some very nice nuggets of info there. thanx again

if i understand correctly casing for wbs cakes would be best off supplemented with verm. mixed in. and a healthy layer of wet verm. on the bottom. how do we feel about a small amount of perlite mixed in the casing any attempts or experience with this type of thing?




i wouldn't use verm at all.. maybe mixed in the casing layer and that's it.

no wet verm on the bottom.. doesn't really help and just makes a mess.. not sure about increases susceptibility to contams, but it just isn't necessary if you do your casing layer right..

and perlite would just be a waste in the sub.. it comes in some pre-mixed casings though.. so that's not bad.

since you're a noob i suggest goin to walmart and getting either jiffy mix, perfect mix, or miracle grow moisture control.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTyz
Strangerthanfiction
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 49
Last seen: 15 years, 6 days
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #8038893 - 02/18/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

thanx for all this great info. i need to research some more. i'm obviously a generation or two behind with my technology. but now that i've found this great tool (you guys) i'll be up to speed soon. i'm sure i'll post again with my next series of questions.

Q. WBF v. PFtek
A. WBF


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinechucklehead
GeneticThrowback toNeanderthal
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 1,338
Loc: Chucky Cheese
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: WBS v. PF tek [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #8039095 - 02/18/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like a little verm mixed into my MGMC.  I don't add perlite to anything either but it comes in the MGMC. 

As far as no verm on the bottom.  Well it works for me when I use a thin substrate layer. 

I don't use verm by itself as a casing except in the case of BRF cakes.  I've tried it.  It sucks.  Did I say it sucks?  Because it sucks.  Results in lots of useless substrate.  :bendoverrover:

I agree with drkrobotnik.  Get some MGMC or the like and use that.  It's easy and it works. 

As for Rye.  I don't care for it.  It works fine but it costs way more than WBS.  I can buy 20lbs of WBS for $6.00.  20lbs of Rye costs $15.80.  Hmmm.  Tough choice.  Plus I spent a lot more time working with WBS.  I know pretty much how to hydrate it and how to dry it.  I have had better success with WBS and I don't care as much if I lose a batch due to bad LC. 

Also it's tougher physically.  I tend not to have kernels bust open and contaminate as often as I do with Rye.  That I'm sure is largely due to inexperience but still.  I like WBS for what it is and what it can do.  It's what I know and I don't see much sense in switching back to Rye especially now that I have been learning the ways of manure.  Wow is that stuff amazing.  WHY didn't I try it sooner?  Alas poo is not the topic of this thread. :shrug: However I will say spawning WBS to poo is very easy.  You can mix it up and such without much fear of tearing open kernels in the mixing process.  I suck at layering.  So I put on gloves and gently mix horse poo, coir, or both with my WBS spawn.  That works pretty darn nicely. 

A few weeks back I made a few of those grain pocket bags.  You know the ones with manure as a bulk substrate bag and a well of grain poured into the center.  Once colonized the WBS massages nicely into the manure.  In the last couple of weeks I put 1.5 pints of WBS in one quart of straight coir.  It fully colonized in six days.:eek: 

Since I mentioned the grain pocket bags let me make a quick side note.  Those things are freaking great but be darn sure you are using a clean syringe.  I killed four of them the other day with a bad LC.:mad:  I knew better than to try a new LC on them but I was just itching to try my new strain.  Don't be a fool like me.  Shoot up a couple of BRF jars BEFORE you shoot up a grain pocket bag.  Otherwise it's a lot of work down the tubes.  And with that I'm off to test a few more LCs.

Good luck Tyz:goodluck:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Boomr Bag   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* PF Tek or WBS for a newbie? Experts? MOTH 2,959 14 06/10/03 03:29 PM
by magicfungi
* pf tek w/ pint jars....will this work? mile69 4,596 13 08/12/02 03:57 PM
by mile69
* Did I add enough water? used PF Tek GreyMatter 1,626 1 03/30/02 06:47 AM
by Anno
* Pf-tek newbie help Incubus 2,364 4 01/05/02 09:03 AM
by World Spirit
* help! slow mushroom growth using pf-tek bongbiotche 975 4 07/18/03 09:52 PM
by lemunhed
* Life After the PF Tek, where to? KitMarlowe 1,504 3 01/09/02 11:33 AM
by XAZIA
* PF-Tek or Rye grain DrD525 10,997 17 06/03/16 01:57 PM
by openmindedcanvas
* Why is the PF tek recommended for newbies? GaryW 9,931 8 07/27/02 07:08 AM
by SwondPooping

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
6,969 topic views. 19 members, 124 guests and 33 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 12 queries.