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Invisiblejoker_man
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Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics)
    #8023829 - 02/14/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am getting extremely frustrated with WBS and I need some help from some of you pros. Not giving up just yet.

So here's what I did:
1. Bird Basics WBS (petsmart) rinsed very throughly
2. WBS left to soak overnight in bucket filled with water (uncovered)
3. After 24hrs of soaking the WBS was again rinsed very throughly
4. WBS simmered for 25 minutes until there were only a few cracked grains. The grains easily cracked open with my fingernail.
5. Since my strainer is small and doesn't dry well (its small), I spread the WBS out on a large towel and let it sit for about 45 minutes until practically no WBS stuck to my hand when I picked it up.
6. WBS jarred with coffee filter, then lid, then 1 layer of aluminum foil
7. PCed for 90 minutes at 15psi
8. Allowed to cool overnight and then inoculated with spore syringe (1 cc each) and shaken well
9. Incubated at 70-80F (temperature varies in incubator) for 7 days

So here I am, 7 days after inoculation and I have zero growth in 10 jars. It appears that there may be some form of rot (sour rot?). Take a look at the pictures...





So where did I go wrong?

I've been doing a lot of reading and some people recommend covering the WBS as you soak it overnight. What does this accomplish and should I have done this?

I'd also like to note that when I soaked the WBS it was a relatively low temperature (around 60F). Does the temperature need to be higher for the bacterial endospores to germinate?

All input is welcome and appreciated. This is my 3rd attempt and I keep getting similar results, although the last jars showed growth after 5 days or so. I really have no idea where I'm going wrong. :frown:


Edited by joker_man (02/14/08 08:03 PM)


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Invisiblelarge_dose
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8023882 - 02/14/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

another one of these threads....

7 days isnt shit.

Your technique looks great...
but you used spores, and not live tissue.
it will take a bit longer for the spores to germinate on grain, IME.


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Offlinetonyshroom
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: large_dose]
    #8024492 - 02/14/08 08:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I have a Texas strain that just now was spawned to a bulk sub. I had 3 yes 3 other strains that have already been spawned and flushed 3 time and trashed before ever spawning the one strain.They where prepaired and noc'ed the same time as the others.

Your shit(wbs) does look a lil wet though. You should be able to tell by smelling them if they are roting. The one... unless it is the way the light is hitting it looks like it is starting to grow. If it is then you are just fine. Patients my son patients


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InvisibleRoYaL_fLuSh
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8024580 - 02/14/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

your water content looks a bit too high in there .. think youll be seeing some green soon .. :frown:


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Offlinecyberthreat
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: RoYaL_fLuSh]
    #8024675 - 02/14/08 09:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you don't need to simmer no need waste of time


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InvisibleRoYaL_fLuSh
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: cyberthreat]
    #8024691 - 02/14/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cyberthreat said:
you don't need to simmer no need waste of time




simmering allows you to receive the maximum level of saturation while at the same time expelling impuruities and contams .. i disagree


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Invisiblezyxwvutsr
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: RoYaL_fLuSh]
    #8024899 - 02/14/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like your question about does temperature matter to germinate endospores. I look forward to hearing a response to this.


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Offlinecyberthreat
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: zyxwvutsr]
    #8025983 - 02/15/08 06:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

agar don't simmer and there's a tek were doc's wild birdseed tek so your ill informed. and how long have you been here? and how many post do you have


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: cyberthreat]
    #8026013 - 02/15/08 06:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


you don't need to simmer no need waste of time






Do you get flushes like this:






Don't say that simmering is not needed my friend cause it is to achieve results like this! Especially when you don't do bulk. It really hits my nerve when people say that simmering is a waste of time. The proof is in the pudding!

Doc


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OfflineNeobean
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: doc34]
    #8026025 - 02/15/08 06:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

doc34 said:
Quote:


you don't need to simmer no need waste of time






Do you get flushes like this:






Don't say that simmering is not needed my friend cause it is to achieve results like this! Especially when you don't do bulk. It really hits my nerve when people say that simmering is a waste of time. The proof is in the pudding!

Doc




Those flushes are a result of spawning to bulk, not the water content of your primary substrate. You don't "need" to simmer if you can get your water content right.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: Neobean]
    #8026071 - 02/15/08 07:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

HAHAHA


You go boy!


Where in the hell did this crap start about COCO-COIR being a bulk substrate instead of a casing material?


Peat is an organic material and so is Coir. Both contain nutrients!
The only material that I know of that can be classed as a casing material with no nutrients is Vermiculite or any material that doesn't contain nutrients. I have been using coir as a casing material since it hit the OMC and i won't use anything else!


I don't do bulk dude, My casing layer is coir, my substrate is WBS!

Screw this, I will not argue this anymore!

Keep doing what you do and I will keep doing what I do.

I like coming to this site but maybe it's time that I took my valuable information and went elsewhere where they don't argue over petty crap like this. Everyone on this site that knows me knows that I use Coir as a casing layer. Without that layer I would get nothing!

So I guess that Peat is a bulk substrate?Mushroom compost is a bulk substrate. Compost in general is a bulk sub. Dirt is a bulk sub. The only true casing material is Verm, rocks, sand and any other non-nutrient containing material you can find!

What-ever dude!

Quote:

Those flushes are a result of spawning to bulk, not the water content of your primary substrate. You don't "need" to simmer if you can get your water content right.





BULLSHIT!

There is no other way to get each grain hydrated to it's max other than simmering pal!



Keep on keep'in on




Doc


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8026087 - 02/15/08 07:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Anyhow Jokerman,

Your jars seem to me to be a little on the wet side, but you should be ok. I have had jars that were way more wet than yours and they were just fine.


Patience is the key. You did a multi-spore inoculation so you may want to wait some more.


Doc


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OfflineNeobean
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: doc34]
    #8026092 - 02/15/08 07:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Dude, its Friday, chill out will you?
No one insulted you, no one said you were doing anything wrong. (I didn't anyways)

Why is it so hard for you to accept that there is more than one way of doing things?

If you want to leave this site, put your money where your mouth is. This is one shroomer that won't be missing you, mister hissy fit.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: Neobean]
    #8026131 - 02/15/08 07:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Listen kid,

I know more than you do that there are many ways to do this and I am the first one to say that.

I can't stand for people to post after me telling people that what I say is not correct.
Mister hissy fit?

grow up kid!

As far as me leaving the site and putting my money where my mouth is, well,,,,,,


Look, everytime I come here and post sharing my information with the rest of the OMC, I get exactly what I am doing right now, argueing over something that I know, for a fact, to be a fact ,and I will stand by that. Why is it so hard for everyone to understand the simplicity of cultivating mushrooms? I come here to show people how easy it is and I get slammed for it?

I have secrets that i am trying to share and i have people trying to tell me different. I have been cultivating mushrooms way longer than most on this site and I won't have people telling other people that I did this and that when i did exactly the opposite. i use Coir as a casing layer and people are telling me that I am doing bulk-that is just flat out wrong people1 If I was doing bulk i would state that as a fact! I'm not doing bulk and if you go back a couple of years on this site, you will find that Coir was used as a casing layer only. Then I come back to the site after a couple of years from society and I get slammed for stating the same damn thing I did 2 years ago? What ever dude.


I'm done with this crap=one day we do this, but wait, 2 years from now this will be wrong!


Yeah, right;)




Doc


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OfflineNeobean
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: doc34]
    #8026148 - 02/15/08 07:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I was around when Coir was only a casing layer material, and I got slammed no more than 2 weeks ago for telling someone that.

I never said your way of doing things was wrong. No use in arguing any further.


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OfflineVyguttis
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: doc34]
    #8026152 - 02/15/08 07:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

no signs,but don't worry. I remember then I was trying wit corn,so first signs was be only after one month


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OfflineTwiggs
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8026282 - 02/15/08 08:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

joker_man said:

6. WBS jarred with coffee filter, then lid, then 1 layer of aluminum foil

8. Allowed to cool overnight and then inoculated with spore syringe (1 cc each) and shaken well






i would use some tyvek inbetween the lid and jar, cofee filter wont work. use that on top with a rubberband to keep it clean.


From what i have read, the best thing is, when the pressure cooker is depresurized take them out and shake them then, then put back in to cool overnight, then nock them up (without shaking) its best to let the spores germinate before you mix it all up, wait till 25-35% colonized before you shake, then it speeds right up...



Doc, as far as simmering goes, i think this is the best way to say it. without simmering it still works fine. but with simmering you get great results, if they wanna cut corners, i say go for it. i simmer mine


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: zyxwvutsr]
    #8026676 - 02/15/08 10:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zyxwvutsr said:
I like your question about does temperature matter to germinate endospores. I look forward to hearing a response to this.



yes but 60 degrees isnt a temp to worry about.


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


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I need to proofread


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: tahoe]
    #8026686 - 02/15/08 10:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

the water content looks fine. I would not waste my time soaking wbs to hatch endospores. I just simmer both rye and wbs.

Please give us details about your lid setup.
A coffee filter will do nothing against contams. So if you do get contams this is the first spot that I would look


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread


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Invisiblejoker_man
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: tahoe]
    #8026765 - 02/15/08 11:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for all the responses!  :smile2:  I will definitely be changing some things up next go around

Quote:

tahoe said:
Please give us details about your lid setup.
A coffee filter will do nothing against contams. So if you do get contams this is the first spot that I would look




I'm not sure where I got the coffee filter thing from, but I just put it under the lid, then I have my lid with two small holes, and aluminum foil. I remove the foil, inoculate, and put micropore tape over each hole. I've never had any contams in my jars, but I did have rot on my first batch of jars (far too wet). My second batch was too dry from crappy bird seed and I didn't steam. This time I switched to  bird basics WBS and the jars look far better than my previous two batches.


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Offlinexeallos
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8026783 - 02/15/08 11:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, a little wet, keep your eye out for the sour smell of bacillus. If it gets a more yellow and slimy in those wet areas you've got it for sure.


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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: Twiggs]
    #8026785 - 02/15/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Twiggs said:
Quote:

joker_man said:
8. Allowed to cool overnight and then inoculated with spore syringe (1 cc each) and shaken well




when the pressure cooker is depresurized take them out and shake them then, then put back in to cool overnight, then nock them up (without shaking)





I've read about this before, but nobody really gave a good reason why to shake the jars immediately after pressure cooking. What is resulting difference?

Also, why wouldn't you shake the jars after inoculating? I was under the impression that you want to disperse the spores as much as possible so colonization begins in more places. Thanks!


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8026808 - 02/15/08 11:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

if the seed is done right it will not need to be shaken before it cools.

If it isnt done correctly or not simmered just mixed together the seed will burst and stick together. Just like the shitty white rice your mom used to cook. It will cool into a lump of shit if you do not shake it while hot


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread


Edited by tahoe (02/15/08 01:26 PM)


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OfflineTwiggs
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8026892 - 02/15/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

when you shake the grains are not compressed, so more air pockets inside. its just a better environment from myc to spread. lets say if you purposely packed your grains, it would take longer, is this true???? its just what i read.

as far as not shaking. look into how spores germinate. I'm not sure off the top of my head. but when you let them sit they have a better chance of finding a mate and creating myc. lets say you shoot it up with 3cc's. if that 3cc's is in one spot your spores will germinate quicker. if you shake it can add another 3-4 days on it. so establish some solid myc, then shake, and those grains will recover after a day and start to spread all through the jar...

hope this helped, probably my longest post so far.


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Invisiblejoker_man
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: Twiggs]
    #8026941 - 02/15/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Twiggs said:
when you shake the grains are not compressed, so more air pockets inside. its just a better environment from myc to spread. lets say if you purposely packed your grains, it would take longer, is this true???? its just what i read.

as far as not shaking. look into how spores germinate. I'm not sure off the top of my head. but when you let them sit they have a better chance of finding a mate and creating myc. lets say you shoot it up with 3cc's. if that 3cc's is in one spot your spores will germinate quicker. if you shake it can add another 3-4 days on it. so establish some solid myc, then shake, and those grains will recover after a day and start to spread all through the jar...

hope this helped, probably my longest post so far.




That makes sense and I'm sure it will help. I will be sure to do this next time. Much appreciated :thumbup:


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Invisibleblood4blood
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Re: Do my jars look ok? Help! (Good pics) [Re: joker_man]
    #8027005 - 02/15/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

dont let it get to you DOC. alot of people take your advice very professionally and it would be a shame to see you go over something like this. just think of how much repetitivness and bs RR has gone through over the years and hes still around. stick around buddy, i like reading your posts and so do alot of other people


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