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InvisiblePopACapInHisAss
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Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis
    #8020669 - 02/14/08 02:33 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

There are zillions of posts about what to use. There are many specific posts and content aobut what not to do, but not as
much organized.

My thought is that if I can understand as precisely as possible
what the fungus needs, and nothing else for contams to live on.

So, there a "list of ingredients to avoid?"

As a spawn, substrate, or casing material?

I can't find a compiled list yet. If not, please make
suggestions :o)


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: PopACapInHisAss]
    #8021340 - 02/14/08 10:10 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Little by little youll learn through your own experiences. get to work.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: PopACapInHisAss]
    #8021383 - 02/14/08 10:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So, there a "list of ingredients to avoid?"




Are you trying to find out what contams eat, so as to avoid it, so you won't get contams?

Haha, everything mushrooms eat=contams eat also! Contams are endospores and bacteria and they thrive in the same environements as mushrooms do. When you add food and water(sugar and h2o) you are creating an environement that those endospores and bacteria love, oh and mushrooms do to!

If that is what you are doing and asking, then good luck in your quest. If you do find something please let us know cause this could change the way we cultivate forever!


Good luck my friend

:cool::thumbup:

Doc


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: doc34]
    #8022183 - 02/14/08 02:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

People please read on. I edited this post because i replied in a bad mood, which leads to misinterpretation.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

Quote:

doc34 said:
Quote:

So, there a "list of ingredients to avoid?"




Are you trying to find out what contams eat, so as to avoid it, so you won't get contams?

Haha, everything mushrooms eat=contams eat also! Contams are endospores and bacteria and they thrive in the same environements as mushrooms do. When you add food and water(sugar and h2o) you are creating an environement that those endospores and bacteria love, oh and mushrooms do to!

If that is what you are doing and asking, then good luck in your quest. If you do find something please let us know cause this could change the way we cultivate forever!


Good luck my friend

:cool::thumbup:

Doc



ARRG a wise man with expert knownledge :thumbdown:
EVERTHING YOU WROTE IS BULLSHIT. hope you were only in a bad mood.
yea i had to yell. sorry?

Hope more to come on this interesting topic.


Edited by udok (02/22/08 05:29 PM)


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InvisiblePopACapInHisAss
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: mad genius]
    #8026963 - 02/15/08 01:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mad genius said:
Little by little youll learn through your own experiences. get to work.




I think my understanding of mycology is a bit more advanced than you
may assume.

A little clarification on what I am asking:

As an example, there are 13 known minerals that most nightshades
require to grow to perfect health. So, the list for these plants
would include the 13 minerals, water, and dissolved oxygen. This
is the whole list of what is required to be supplied to the roots.

Knowing the list, why would you add anything else to a plant food
formula for the plants? The answer is, you do not. (Except things
like beneficial bacteria, ph stabilizers, and the like.) Any other
minerals could be damaging to roots, prevent absorption of other
minerals, or feed contaminants.

I want to know this list for Cubbies...There is an exact list of
the needs of Cubbies. I just don't know if anyone knows what is
on the list!!! That is why I am asking :o)


Edited by PopACapInHisAss (02/15/08 01:48 PM)


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: PopACapInHisAss]
    #8026991 - 02/15/08 01:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

good i hope that this thread will go somewhere. been searching for that too. honestly it seems like everybody thinks they know, but no one can get past the bs long enough to actually get somewhere. RR we need your help man!!


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: mad genius]
    #8027898 - 02/15/08 05:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mad genius said:
Little by little youll learn through your own experiences. get to work.



:thumbup: Yes :thumbup:, but, but sometimes one act on the  wrong assumption, especially when the internet is used as source of knowlege. So a list of the basic requirements would be nice.

I am a gardener and thats my passion. I learned a lot through my own experiences, but i made also some wrong decisions.

I know that a high(high??) Mg concentration is not 'good' for mushrooms. Ok i don't use dolomite lime. But i don't know why.

And life can not be reduced to 'an exact' list of  requirements.


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: zigzag]
    #8027968 - 02/15/08 06:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zigzag said:
...
RR we need your help man!!



OT: hmm whats the active user count with mushroom cultivation:blush:


--------------------
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InvisiblePopACapInHisAss
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: udok]
    #8029501 - 02/16/08 12:32 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


And life can not be reduced to 'an exact' list of requirements.




Actually, the life most plants can be reduced to an exact list
of requirements. The vast majority of plants are purely reactive
in their growth patterns.

Whatever environment is supplied, the same genetics of plant will
respond exactly the same every time if perfect consistency can be
maintained.

Variation of plant shape is the most difficult because of air
currents, distance to light point source, movement of the point
source, surrounding foliage or objects...whatever triggers a
particular species of plant to form tissue in a particular shape...

Just slight differences in casing substrate will affect pins so
ridiculous uniformity with mushrooms is nearly impossible...but
I've seen some really consistent grows...not to mention variation
in the underlying mycelium network...

If EVERY SINGLE environmental factor is the same including
genetics, lack of (or even inclusion of) mistakes, you will get predictable results from virtually all plants except for slight
differences in appearance as mentioned.


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InvisiblePopACapInHisAss
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: PopACapInHisAss]
    #8029559 - 02/16/08 01:00 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

According to "Nibin:"
(http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7792880#7792880)

Quote:


Mushrooms are not like plants, that need so much nitrogen, so much phosphorus, so much potassium, micronutrients and water.

They eat their food, the same as we do, so they require complex foods (the same as we would not survive eating what plants eat).

Obviously, there has to be certain proportions of the different kinds of nutrients, but it isn't as crucial as in plants. Generally, we try and imitate what they feed off in nature, and they enjoy variety. For example, a mix of grain, poo, straw, coir and coffee grounds will probably keep the mycelium much more happy than just coir on it's own.

Just avoid any foodstuff that are strongly specific to a kind of nutrient,or add them in small amounts (stuff like chicken poop or vegetable oil)





I am not completely satisfied but this is a good start...this
would seem to make sense...still, as I am aware there isn't a
giant number of differentiated tissues and organ systems in a
majik mushie like in an animal.

I would bet their chemistry is somewhat simple in terms of what minerals, proteins, amino acids, fats, carbohydrates, hormones,
and enzymes that are usable in chemical and tissue development.


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: PopACapInHisAss]
    #8030048 - 02/16/08 04:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What you really need is to have a read of Chapter 5 Compost Preparation in The Mushroom Cultivator by Paul Stamets.

It covers a lot of ground and I think it has what you're after. It is 20 years old so there have been some advances in knowledge but I think it is still very relevant.

Here is the first paragraph or so..
Quote:


The purpose of composting is to prepare a nutritious medium of such characteristics that the growth of mushroom mycelium is promoted to the practical exclusion of the competitor organisms.

Specifically this means:
1. to create a physically and chemically homogeneous substrate.
2. To create a selective substrate, one in which the mushroom mycelium thrives better than competitor organisms.
3. To concentrate nutrients for use by the mushroom plant and to exhaust nutrients favored by competitors.
4. To remove the heat generating capabilities of the substrate.

Mushroom mycelium grows on a wide variety of plant matter and animal manures. these materials occur naturally in various combinations and in varying stages of decomposition.............




He then goes on to discuss basic raw materials, supplements (nitrogen and carbohydrates) and minerals.


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: PopACapInHisAss]
    #8030068 - 02/16/08 05:16 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Search for some of Agar's posts regarding compost. I remember he posted exact percentages of nutrients/minerals needed for an ideal mushroom compost.

Udok- Doc is right. Contaminants will thrive on just about anything mushrooms will. How can you say it's BS?


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: FooMan]
    #8030157 - 02/16/08 06:54 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Search for some of Agar's posts regarding compost. I remember he posted exact percentages of nutrients/minerals needed for an ideal mushroom compost.

Udok- Doc is right. Contaminants will thrive on just about anything mushrooms will. How can you say it's BS?




beg your pardon .
It was more the harsh reply that induced me to that. But bacteria and fungi, both possible contaminants, differ totaly.(Ammonia as a keyword) and what would one get if he uses saccharose (table sugar)
as supplement- maybe alcohol.

Tnx for the tip about agars post. Will try a seach. But this is not a
prime theme for me now. :blush:


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: udok]
    #8031646 - 02/16/08 06:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The first part of my post was in reply to Popacap's original question. It seems to be a prime theme for him. :blush:

I don't see what part of Doc's post was harsh. It actually seemed very to-the-point and light-hearted. He even included a smile. Check out some of his grows. He is very knowledgeable when it comes to mushroom cultivation. You, on the other hand, come off like you believe you are somehow smarter or more knowledgeable than the rest of us. Thanks, I know what table sugar is :wink:

I'm also not sure where you're going with your comparison of fungi and bacteria. They don't "differ totally" when it comes to what they eat, which is the topic at hand.


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep


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InvisiblePopACapInHisAss
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: FooMan]
    #8034872 - 02/17/08 04:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Chapter 5 of Stamets offers some clues but the chapter is about
making compost...but says little about the exact composition of
the ideal product. It is indirect at best.

Here are the sections of Stamets, Chapter 5 relative to my question
that I can find:

On page 81 in the list of gypsum benefits:

"4. To supply the calcium necessary for mushroom metabolism."

I would say this strongly suggests that mushrooms require calcium.

On page 97 talking about the results of microorganism composting:

"The result of this microbial action is a build-up of cell substance
or 'biomass' which contains vitamins, fats and proteins. What the
mushroom mycelium uses for a large portion of its nutrition then, is
the concentrated bodies forming the microbial biomass."

So here, we have vitamins, fats, and proteins. A bit more information
than calcium but quite vague in reality.

I will search for more sources later.

If I don't get anywhere with that, I will analyze the contents of
PF cakes and other simple sterile substrates and compare. I wonder
how much dead biomass is in an average PF cake. I wonder if the
mycelium eats dead microorganisms, living, or both.

Hmmm, there must be an information source out there with such
information. If not, there is certainly a way to figure it out.

I will ponder it and try to figure out how with the least lab
work.

It would be nice to know an exact list of baseline ingredients
necessary for healthy mushrooms. If a good substrate of only
these ingredients was created, then it could be supplemented
with individual elements, enzymes, hormones, etc.

The effects could be observed and (if any) could be attributed
to some action of the supplement. Mushrooms may have a list of
exactly what they must have or they may be like humans that can
survive off a bear list of proteins, carbs, fats, minerals,
and vitamins but can actually use and thrive better off a longer
list of the same stuff plus various enzymes. That is, there is
a big difference between what the body must have, and what it can
use if available. Mushrooms may or may not be the same way.


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: udok]
    #8034965 - 02/17/08 04:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ARRG a wise man with expert knownledge




Thank you!


:cool::thumbup:


Doc


P.S. I was going to continue to help you out with this, but, since I know nothing:rolleyes: about what mushrooms eat and need to grow(did i just say that?), it's useless for me to continue,:rofl2:not to mention your  attitude. Your loss kid, not mine!


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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: doc34]
    #8035291 - 02/17/08 10:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Dude take a BRF cake for example, Straight BRF and Vermiculite. Rye berries, just rye berries with casing on top. Bulk subs as well like straw, manure, coir(often mixed with coffee). They are all very simple and having sterile procedures is also very simple. So unless your trying to modulate inputs to increase potency what are you getting at? There is no value to breaking this down to an exact science and what do you plan on doing to the inputs to get your desired result? Are you going to pay a couple hundred dollars to make a cake out of the chemical inputs mix it all up and find out something was not just right and it didn't work?


--------------------
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: doc34]
    #8037551 - 02/18/08 01:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

doc34 said:
Quote:

ARRG a wise man with expert knownledge




Thank you!


:cool::thumbup:





Not at all!! Could not suppres that. :blush:



Quote:

doc34 said:
P.S. I was going to continue to help you out with this, but, since I know nothing:rolleyes: about what mushrooms eat and need to grow(did i just say that?), it's useless for me to continue,:rofl2:not to mention your  attitude. Your loss kid, not mine!




kid? :biggrin:

:cool::thumbup:







Thats what made me real angry:

Quote:

doc34 said:
If that is what you are doing and asking, then good luck in your quest. If you do find something please let us know cause this could change the way we cultivate forever!






attitude?

All said!!!

Anyway :Back to topic.

I don't want an other "How to get the biggest, most potent  fruitbodies without effort" thread.

Seems that i have to spend more money to get information.
Mushroom Biology: Concise Basics and Current Developments (Library Binding) 44$ *grrr*


--------------------
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InvisiblePopACapInHisAss
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: udok]
    #8043789 - 02/19/08 07:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Mushroom Biology: Concise Basics and Current Developments (Library Binding) 44$ *grrr*




I don't know what you guys are bickering about. I'm talking about
a scientific understanding of exactly what mushrooms need or do not.
I know a lot about making compost. That is not what I am trying to
understand.

The information I quoted above could be very useful when I get more
cash. Thanks udok!


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InvisiblePopACapInHisAss
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Re: Breakdown of Mineral Nutrients, Fats, Carbohydrates, etc. Needed by BenQSis [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8043811 - 02/19/08 07:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


There is no value to breaking this down to an exact science and what do you plan on doing to the inputs to get your desired result? Are you going to pay a couple hundred dollars to make a cake out of the chemical inputs mix it all up and find out something was not just right and it didn't work?




Wow, I'm glad you're not emperor. Basic human needs were met before
the word science even existed in any language. Just because you lack
the vision or imagination to see the potential of deepening our
understanding of all the details of nature and the universe, does
not mean we all do.


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