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OfflineMrbob
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Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 37
Loc: CA
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
WBS after PC Question
    #8019452 - 02/13/08 08:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

WBS (DOC)
Ive Followed The Soaking procedure to the T.
My WBS didn't have a rusty red tint at all but i did see the chemicals so i removed and rinse. Boiled for 25 minutes until some are split. PC'ed for about hour and a half at 15 PSI or what i believe to be 15 PSI. Using This Pressure Canner. Ive read and reread over and over again different instructions following it to what i believe correct (about noticing when its at 15 psi). Let it sit for 20 hours (this is where i believe i went wrong). I opened the PC and had a little funk smell and water marks on the jar at water lvl. When i tried to shake the jars they where in one large clump and wouldn't brake up. Is that bad? where did i go wrong?!

Thanks ahead of time,

PS i searched and search and didn't find anything so please help me, flaming isn't necessary so save your one free post for someone else please because it isn't constructive


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I have no post because i use the search button, duh!


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: Mrbob]
    #8019473 - 02/13/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

sounds like it was too wet... did you strain it and let it drain hhheeellllaaaaa good? thats where you will go wrong...

You should only let them sit there until the pc is cool enough to take them out and knock them up... overnight works well


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Offlinepazzy
Always Hardcore


Registered: 08/24/07
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: Mrbob]
    #8019474 - 02/13/08 08:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It sounds like they are a little too wet. Did you put tinfoil to prevent water from entering the jars?

I have saved jars that didnt shake like that in the past by repressure cooking them for 15 minutes and then shaking them while they are still very hot.


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Are you happy for a miracle?

:yinyang2:

Absolutely no source checks/discussions.


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Invisiblemusher_420
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Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 2,691
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: Mrbob]
    #8019488 - 02/13/08 08:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

From what you described it doesn't surprise me that happened. You probably over boiled your wbs to start with and you didn't shake it when it was hot. It takes practice and a careful eye to get moisture content right when boiling... that's why I soak my grain all it takes is time.

Check this out
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3982155#Post3982155

this way you know your grain is at right moisture content. Usually I soak for 24hours then I heat it up only until the water get good and hot to help the draining process.

PC exactly like you did. Water marks are normal just make sure you don't run out of water. A smell will be present.. I guess it smells like you would expect PC'ed wbs too. The only thing to do next time is to open your PC as soon as the pressure drops (careful of the steam) and give the jars a good shake while they are hot (jars will be hot too so use gloves and a towel for banging on the jars, be gentle they crack easy when hot) I put them back into the PC to cool down after the shake.

Better luck next time. If you have extra innoculant then you could try those jars.. but I'd scoop out the clumps and try again. you might get the outside colonized but the inside will take forever an likely not finish before bacteria or mold has it's way.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: Mrbob]
    #8019491 - 02/13/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i always take them out right after the pressure cooker depressurizes with a towel and shake them..

sounds like you cooked them.. are the grains slimy/sticky? they should shake around very easily.


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Offline1Hypermycosis1
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 21
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: Mrbob]
    #8019497 - 02/13/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It's hard to tell where you went wrong from your post. Go to youtube and type in "lets grow mushrooms" and then watch the rye grain prep preview, it shows exactly how the grain should look before sterilization.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: 1Hypermycosis1]
    #8019510 - 02/13/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

problem is that he's using WBS..

it's not hard to tell where he went wrong.. he probably just had it too hot in the PC and cooked the grains or didn't shake them when they were still hot..

remember to let them dry for a while after you rinse them last (i say like 2 hours or so) before pressure cooking and then towel em of so they aren't too wet..


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
Male

Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 2,405
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #8019512 - 02/13/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you should soak them for 24 hours.. rinse and strain very very well.. and sterilize... remove when hot and pressure drops, shake, and put them back in to cool... after you knock them up, leave in dark for a few days, and only shake after you see a nice chunk growing... if you shake too much or too often, it will fuck it up...


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Offline1Hypermycosis1
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Registered: 02/05/08
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #8019570 - 02/13/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It makes no difference what type of grain you use. You shouldn't have to shake your jars while they are still hot if you prepare them the right way.


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Invisibleshymanta
Mad Scientist
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Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 907
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: 1Hypermycosis1]
    #8019637 - 02/13/08 09:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

1Hypermycosis1 said:
It makes no difference what type of grain you use. You shouldn't have to shake your jars while they are still hot if you prepare them the right way.




Indeed.

One thing I do with grain is wash it very well before soaking. This removes dust and starches that cause the grain to clump. I never simmer. When they say patience is a virtue, its never been more true that with mycology. Just cover with water and forget it 'till the next day.

When you doing this stuff for the first time, its hard not to get exited and want it done now. Its not a big deal though. As long as your doing something, your learning something.


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
Stranger

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: shymanta]
    #8019801 - 02/13/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah..

what i do is just put them in a pot and let water run on them for a couple minutes.. rinses them really good and washes off all the floaters..

simmering really makes them expand though and it doesn't take that much longer so i do that as well.

never had a problem with grains sticking together unless they get cooked.. like if you dont put enough water in the pc or have it set too hot..

and yes i'm not disagreeing with either of y'all..


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OfflineMrbob
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Registered: 01/17/08
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Loc: CA
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #8020928 - 02/14/08 02:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks u guys ill take your advice and watch the video and give it a second go.

and ill make sure to shake well hot.

should i re-lock pressure cooker after just as an extra precaution?


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I have no post because i use the search button, duh!


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Offlinedoc34
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Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 2,667
Loc: Myceliaville !!!
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: Mrbob]
    #8021342 - 02/14/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hey BOB,

You over did your WBS!

1.)
Quote:

Boiled for 25 minutes until some are split.




NEVER BOIL! You should only allow for the water to reach a temp of 180-200 degrees F when you simmer.No more or less. When you see steam coming out of the pot, the water is hot enough for simmering.
SIMMERING IS NOT BOILING THE WATER!! The water should never boil but just be on the edge of a slow boil-simmer not boil.

2.)
Quote:

PC'ed for about hour and a half at 15 PSI or what i believe to be 15 PSI. Using This Pressure Canner. Ive read and reread over and over again different instructions following it to what i believe correct (about noticing when its at 15 psi).




This could be the culprit also-Over PC'ing the grains will make them clump together also and causing more of the grains to burst. Not good.

3.)
Quote:

Let it sit for 20 hours (this is where i believe i went wrong).




You should have taken the jars out as soon as the PC cooled down and give them a rigorous shake to redisperse the grains evenly in the jars and then let them set over-night to cool.

4.)
Quote:

When i tried to shake the jars they where in one large clump and wouldn't brake up. Is that bad? where did i go wrong?!





You went wrong by letting your jars sit inside your PC until they cooled without shaking them first(as soon as the PC cooled down)causing the grains to stick and clump together. If you reheat the jars until they are just hot to the touch, you can re-shake them and they should be fine-if you didn't over cook them when you simmered.


My two pennies.


Doc


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OfflineTobesCanaian
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Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Flag
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: doc34]
    #8021443 - 02/14/08 08:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I do Wbs all the time exactly the same as RR does grains in his video if done properly you do not need to shake when they are hot, your problem is you boiled them for too long you let them soak over night or 8 hours thats all you need you boil them for about a 5 minutes the purpose of the boil is not to add water content but to just allow water to evoporate faster from the outer layers of the seed. You let them dry until you cant feel any water or they are not sticky check with a paper towel or toilet paper works the best. Then you pc for 90 mins and you shouldnt have a problem Dont boil till they crack thats why your having water issues. Also make sure your tinfoil is tight I generally double layer just in caes


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Offlinedoc34
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Registered: 02/14/04
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: TobesCanaian]
    #8021576 - 02/14/08 09:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the purpose of the boil is not to add water content but to just allow water to evoporate faster from the outer layers of the seed.




Wrong=The purpose of the simmer is to hydrate the grains and only that reason.

You cannot get the grains any more hydrated than you will by simmering! That's a fact that I would be willing to bet my cultivating experience on anytime!
Each grain is different in size and each grain holds a different amount of moisture-thus there is no way, shape, form, or fashion, to hydrate the grains so that each grain holds the most water that it can hold and this goes for every grain-YOU CAN ONLY ACHIEVE THIS WHEN YOU SIMMER THE GRAINS. Yes, you can guess the amount and add it yourself, hoping that you added enough, but the only way to ensure that each grain is fully hydrated to it's max is by simmering. Common sense people.

When 5% of the grains has burst, you are done simmering.

Quote:

Then you pc for 90 mins and you shouldnt have a problem



You can go for 90 minutes but 60 is all that is needed unless you are unsure about your PC's ability to sustain a steady 15psi.

Quote:

Dont boil till they crack thats why your having water issues.




Your water issues are more than likely coming from you not allowing the grains to drain long enough. I have loaded jars with grains that were not drained at all and didn't have a problem. I have had jars that had standing water in the bottom of them, before and after colonization with no problems at all. I don't see how you can get a wet jar unless the water boiled over into the jars when PC'ing, or you was just sloppy in your preparation.
If you soak for 24 hours, simmer for 20 minutes, drain for 30 minutes, PC for 60 minutes @ 15psi, you shouldn't have any problems.
But, I do know that it is easier to read, than to apply what you have read, and that there are misunderstandings included when this is the case. Use common sense.

Hell, I'm retired and shouldn't even be trying to explain myself, but I know how it is to struggle with this hobby and how one statement can mislead another.

Follow my tek to the "T"(do not substitute anything)and you will  succeed.

Look, it's like this=I grow in a room that is 12'x12' and in this room I have 4 birds and two Cocker Spaniels along with me and my wife====talking about contams!!!!:shocked: yeah right, I don't get any!!!! Why? Common sense and a few secrets that I have come up with.
This hobby is not hard to master. Pick a Tek and stick with it, don't substitute and wah-lah!



Just my two pennies-probably worth 1 cent!



Doc

P.S. I have nothing to prove by argueing over the simmering issue-I proved myself 20 years ago. I don't mean to sound snappy, but it gets under my skin when people say that simmering has no purpose!


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OfflineTobesCanaian
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: doc34]
    #8021689 - 02/14/08 09:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well let me restate my opinion in my experiance and may not be everyones experiance i have no need to simmer to achieve water content soaking over night is all i have ever needed to do and simmer slightly to allow for easier evaporation now maybe 5 mins puts more water in I cant say it doesnt cause i cant test the water content before and after so i am not going to fight with you of course i know you are very experainced and i have followed your tek i am not going to deny it i am just I have 100% success and i dont need to simmer till they crack i do it 5 mins and thats all, so no way am i doubting your credibility or success just imputting my opinion. not meaning to step in toes :laugh:


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Invisibletahoe
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Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 6,274
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: TobesCanaian]
    #8021707 - 02/14/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

clumped grains are usually a water issure. letting cool for 20 hours would not make them stick together unless there was already a water issue. I just so happen to have a 1/2 gallon jar that the seed was boiled, not simmered. it wasnt soaked, it wasnt rinsed, it was boiled, drained for 15-20 mins. Jar'ed up, pc for 60 mins at 15psi.
There is no need to pc more then 60 mins if you simmered/boiled teh grain first. Even rye.
I will make a quick video. brb


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Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: tahoe]
    #8021741 - 02/14/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so the first pic is just a shot of it vertical with some mycelium showing. The second is of it tilted sideways. The seed is just barely falling. The third is just after a few seconds of sideways holding. The gravity is pulling the seed apart and this has not been shaken at all and its been 3 days since the pc.









Here is the video. Just one hit and it all crumbles. When seed is done right it will not clump.



--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread


Edited by tahoe (02/14/08 10:17 AM)


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OfflineMrbob
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Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 37
Loc: CA
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: WBS after PC Question [Re: doc34]
    #8023428 - 02/14/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

First of all thanks for all your advice and revise of my statement.
BTW Thanks doc for coming out of retirement for me, I am very great full.
Thanks Tahoe for the video now I know what to shoot for.

BTW I Simmered not boiled typo.

One Quick question,
When my PC'er starts to go off I lowered to a low med and it stopped ringing and shaking (the Weight). So I returned it to a med and keep it at a low constant jiggle. That’s why I pc'ed for 90 minutes, restarted count after I got it up to constant shake. I'm using an electric stove so I am assuming that the Gauge various from stove to stove so the only thing is important is the jiggle of the weight, but I do not know, I'm a noob what can I say.

Thanks ahead if time!


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I have no post because i use the search button, duh!


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